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FLYGUY767
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting BLUG (Reply 47):
Good news. Well done Delta.

An airline like US Airways will never be able to start a service from PHX even to LGW, not to mention other europe destinations.

What does this have to do with the topic??

You may want to rethink the above.. Remember PHX has a British Airways 747-400 to Heathrow..

Lufthansa is rumored to return..

-JD
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goldorak
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:18 am

Great news !
it was clearly expected soon as the recent announcement of the JV intention between AF & DL would cover, in the 1st stage, all transatlantic flights of AF/DL between CDG and ATL, JFK, CVG and ... SLC. So it was obvious that CDG-SLC would be announced soon
 
dutchjet
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:46 am

I wonder if Delta knows about this new flight.? Please note that Delta has made no announcement concerning this SLC-CDG flight. The only source for this news is a website from a local SLC television station that got the information from ""undisclosed inside sources"". Please lets wait and see.
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 52):
I wonder if Delta knows about this new flight.? Please note that Delta has made no announcement concerning this SLC-CDG flight. The only source for this news is a website from a local SLC television station that got the information from ""undisclosed inside sources"". Please lets wait and see

As stated above.. 13 August... Wait and see...

-JD
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pdxcof9
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:55 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 48):
If you push the inbound time up any more there will be zero room for a delay causing a stack of dominos to fall as far as scheduling is concerned. The outbound time of 1700 is based upon the 1600 arrival bank into SLC. There is another SkyWest bank at about 1630.. Which would allow for a 1.20 to 2 hour gap between arrival, customs, and transferring flights.

Oh yeah forgot about customs. So I agree with you. 2:40 is a great arrival time. Customs can take a long time. Especially when the Xray machine in customs is broken. We then have to take our bags that have cleared customs to TSA which is on the other side of the airport. I hate doing international flights.

Pretty much every DL and OO destination leaves at 430 all the way to 930. Well on another thread I guessed some times of flight and I think they were the same as yours. Today there are 62 flights that arrive between 345 and 5pm. That are just OO. And a lot of DL flights come in from 330-415 from the west coast.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:20 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 29):
I suspected AF would fly to DEN long before touching SLC. I still think this route is going to be a loser, at least until SLC grows quite a bit more as a city.

I think many a.netters underestimate the current size of the SLC market. With the population of the Wasatch Front (Ogden to Provo) being well over 2 million now, DEN and PHX aren't the only big 7 digit figure metro areas in the Mountain Time Zone technically speaking.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 22):
LHR is very high-yielding, but only from certain destinations. When DL starts LHR, it will be from JFK and ATL for sure, possibly even LAX down the road. CVG and SLC would be from LGW.

 checkmark  I highly doubt SLC will ever see DL service to LHR, LGW is a better bet. I've also read in the SL Tribune that an LGW flight would produce over twice as many O&D passenger numbers as a CDG flight ever could. Something like 40,000 for London vs. 20,000 for Paris. The SL Tribune is perhaps the states most reliable business daily, even though you have to take anything read in a newspaper or TV station with a grain of salt.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 37):
True, but SLC's European demand is smaller than PIT or STL, so while a hub helps, it's not necessarily a guarantee.

Keep in mind that both PIT and STL have seen their numbers diminish considerably, and the numbers at SLC continue to go up year after year. This announcement will undoubtedly make the people at PIT very envious since they want direct service to Europe back more than hub status with US.
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SESGDL
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:34 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 30):
If that were the case MSP would not being seeing daily service to Amsterdam, London, or Tokyo; Tampa would not be seeing service to London; Portland would not be seeing service to Frankfurt, or Tokyo.. There is a demand for service from the Salt Lake market the plethora of Delta Air Lines flights to and from the market only further enrich the possibility of service.

Sorry, not to be nitpicky, but MSP is quite a bit larger than PDX or TPA, or SLC for that matter. MSP is a larger airline market than DTW, so being a Minneapolis/St. Paul resident, I had to correct that. Besides the NYCs, the Bostons, the D.C.s, the Chicagos, the LAs, the Miamis, and the San Franciscos, no airport could support long-haul service without a hub.

Jeremy
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:46 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 56):
Sorry, not to be nitpicky, but MSP is quite a bit larger than PDX or TPA, or SLC for that matter. MSP is a larger airline market than DTW, so being a Minneapolis/St. Paul resident, I had to correct that. Besides the NYCs, the Bostons, the D.C.s, the Chicagos, the LAs, the Miamis, and the San Franciscos, no airport could support long-haul service without a hub.

Ft. Meyers, Fl
Tampa, Fl
Daytona Beach, Fl
Melbourne, Fl
Providence, RI
Hartford, CT

-JD
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MAH4546
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:20 am

While I wouldn't be entirely shocked if the announcement does happen, especially considering Delta's aggressive European growth and the planned trans-Atlantic joint-venture with Air France, I must say it raises a red flag that absolutely no other media source has picked this up yet.
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OA412
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:30 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 25):
I wonder where the author of the article (who writes like a third grader) got his or her information

Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that. This has to be one of the most poorly written articles I've read in quite a while.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 55):
I think many a.netters underestimate the current size of the SLC market.

 checkmark  Absolutely correct! I think a lot of people fail to understand that for upwards of 2 million people, SLC is the only viable airport option. A lot of people see the current census figures on SLC which stand at just over 1 million and think that Salt Lake is a lot smaller than it actually is.
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MAH4546
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:36 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 59):
Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that. This has to be one of the most poorly written articles I've read in quite a while.

It's not an article, actually, it's a transcript from a news clip. It's quit the entertaining clip, especially when the news reporter hugs a map.
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OA412
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:44 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 60):
It's not an article, actually, it's a transcript from a news clip. It's quit the entertaining clip, especially when the news reporter hugs a map.

Oh I didn't realize that. I'll have to check it out.
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BoeingBoy
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:45 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 7):
Great news! Can't wait for the announcement. I, however, knew of this for a while so it's not really news. But it's good to see an announcement will be made soon.

Sounds like a lot of wisful thinking to me. There's no demand for that Itinary
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:13 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 61):
I'll have to check it out.

I can't stop cringing after watching that. Ick.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:38 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 59):
Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that. This has to be one of the most poorly written articles I've read in quite a while.

Channel 4 in SLC is notorious for their tabloid style reporting!  laughing 

Quoting OA412 (Reply 59):
 checkmark  Absolutely correct! I think a lot of people fail to understand that for upwards of 2 million people, SLC is the only viable airport option. A lot of people see the current census figures on SLC which stand at just over 1 million and think that Salt Lake is a lot smaller than it actually is.

Many people just look at the city proper population of being less than 200,000 and are even more amazed. I honestly think the U.S. Census Bureau needs to combine Salt Lake City, Ogden and Provo into one MSA as they used to.
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Rookinla
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:48 am

Quoting BoeingBoy (Reply 62):
Sounds like a lot of wisful thinking to me. There's no demand for that Itinary

And exactly what kind of O&D exists for...

CVG-FRA
CVG-CDG
CVG-LGW

...and some international routes from ATL. It's called feed... At this point DL probably has achieved enough feed at their SLC hub to make this work. The CVG-Europe flights don't survive on O&D alone and neither will this one. Another non-DL example...How much O&D exists for DEN-MUC? As a stand-alone flight LH could not make it work. Add UA's DEN feed and now it works. Add to that the subsidies DL is expected to receive from SLC to start this route and it just might work after all!
 
delta7004
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:49 am

Quote:
D2 and D4 are our international gates. I think it would come into D2. I've seen a 777 parked there before at an angle. I don't think D6 in an international gate and that also holds 767s.
So our SJD flight on skywest doesn't have to go to D4 and all the people don't have to go through customs. When all the other cities in mexico have to go to the international gates. Is there a customs facility at SJD? Just like canada? All our Canada flights can park wherever except YYJ which has to go to D4. I heard it was because there's no customs in YYJ. Anyone know the answer?
This is so exciting!!!! I wonder what time of day it'll come in? Cause the international gates are usually occupied at 4 for YYJ and again at 6 and 7 for 2 mexico flights. Maybe it'll come in at 130 or 2. That'll catch a pretty decent skywest bank.
Wow this is going to be so exciting!!! Wish it was a 777 though. Sometime in the future it will be!!!

D2, D4, and D6 are all international gates, D4 is knocked out of commission if anything is parked at D2 or D6, unless a CRJ is parking there. You will probably see some international flights having to park on the ramp and bus people in. It will most likely never be a 777 (though, it will eventually graduate to 787 I'm sure).

As for the ATL-EDI route being knocked off, I believe it will come back as either JFK-EDI with the new ETOPS 757s or resume service in the summer, or when Dreamliners arrive.
 
haggis79
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting Delta7004 (Reply 66):
You will probably see some international flights having to park on the ramp and bus people in.

excuse me if this is a dumb question, but are there actually any busses that could be used for that in SLC? I've never seen neither busses nor airstairs there, that's why I ask...
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Humberside
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:12 am

Quoting Delta7004 (Reply 66):
As for the ATL-EDI route being knocked off, I believe it will come back as either JFK-EDI with the new ETOPS 757s or resume service in the summer,

Will be back as JFK-EDI with B757 for summer 2008. No DL service at EDI this winter though. Clearly EDI hasn't done as well as epxected for DL, although not badly enough to pull out completely. As you would expect, EDI-ATL performed better in summer than in winter, although I presume EDI-JFK will be year round with service in winter 08/09
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jamesjimlb
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:15 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 3):
You mean, SLC, right?

yes, my apologies

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 5):
Title is a bit misleading. Please change to SLC.

??????? it is
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OA412
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:29 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 64):
Many people just look at the city proper population of being less than 200,000 and are even more amazed. I honestly think the U.S. Census Bureau needs to combine Salt Lake City, Ogden and Provo into one MSA as they used to.

I guess the Census Bureau figures that Salt Lake is now large enough to be considered its own MSA without the addition of Ogden or Provo.
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whoopwhoop
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:33 am

Either way, two words....weight restricted.
Summer in the heat, winter in the snow and fog and lack of a near by suitable alternate with customs.
Good news either way for SLC
 
WesternA318
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 29):
suspected AF would fly to AND CURRENT: Denver - International (DEN / KDEN), USA - Colorado">DEN long before touching SLC. I still think this route is going to be a loser, at least until SLC grows quite a bit more as a city.

Doubtful, as Skyteam doesnt have THAT much of a presence in AND CURRENT: Denver - International (DEN / KDEN), USA - Colorado">DEN, a *A stronghold with US, UA AND LH in there, as well as Mexicana I think?

Quoting BLUG (Reply 47):
An airline like US Airways will never be able to start a service from PHX even to LGW, not to mention other europe destinations.

It would probably be to FRA or to some other *A hub, but I still dont get what you mean by the "an airline like US Airways" comment...

Quoting WhoopWhoop (Reply 71):
Either way, two words....weight restricted.
Summer in the heat, winter in the snow and fog and lack of a near by suitable alternate with customs.
Good news either way for SLC

SLC is indeed considered a hot n high airport...I'm wondering if the 787 would perform better than the 763ERs here?
 
DTWAGENT
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:35 am

Question here..... Would DL use a B763ER or a B764? Which one of them could take a 10 plus hour flight?

Chuck
 
worldtraveler
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:54 am

Quoting Rookinla (Reply 65):
The CVG-Europe flights don't survive on O&D alone and neither will this one.

DL execs have long said that their CVG int'l flights are some of the most profitable on their network.

Keep in mind that there is no DEN or MSP to CDG service and AA and UA both use 763s from ORD to CDG. There is a dearth of service from the northern tier of the US west of the Mississippi all the way to the west coast. Between DL and AF, they have flights at every northern tier city that has CDG service.

When you consider that DL can feed the flight at SLC and AF can feed the flight on the CDG end (and both carriers can put their code on connecting services in/out of each other's hubs), there should be no problem making the flight work.

Quoting WhoopWhoop (Reply 71):
Either way, two words....weight restricted.

you underestimate the 763ER, especially DL's GE powered aircraft - which have just about the same power as the 764 has even though it is 40K pounds heavier. Remember the "long leg" is the westbound leg. You might want to check Boeing's performance statistics on their website.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 58):
While I wouldn't be entirely shocked if the announcement does happen, especially considering Delta's aggressive European growth and the planned trans-Atlantic joint-venture with Air France, I must say it raises a red flag that absolutely no other media source has picked this up yet.

Chris Vanocur (the KTVX reporter behind this story) has always been a very aggressive political and business news reporter in SLC. He was that way years ago while at KUTV (the CBS affiliate). If you see the story on KSL TV-5, then the red flag can come down, or in the business section of the Salt Lake Tribune likewise. I guess I better ask my wife if she is up to spending a few days in Paris!  laughing 
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delta7004
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:23 am

Quote:
Either way, two words....weight restricted.
Summer in the heat, winter in the snow and fog and lack of a near by suitable alternate with customs.
Good news either way for SLC

Probably, unless SLC decides to give at least one runway another 2,000 ft of length to cope with a fully loaded 763ER. The 767s to Hawaii have a hard enough time coping in the late morning. If/when a Dreamliner takes over, the weight restrictions would likely be dropped.

Quote:
you underestimate the 763ER, especially DL's GE powered aircraft - which have just about the same power as the 764 has even though it is 40K pounds heavier. Remember the "long leg" is the westbound leg. You might want to check Boeing's performance statistics on their website.

Yes the 763ER is lighter than the 764 which takes off without restictions to HNL, but that's in the late morning. The only way I can so no weight restricions being placed is if this flight leaves in the morning, or late evening (like 9 or 10 o'clock).

Quote:
excuse me if this is a dumb question, but are there actually any busses that could be used for that in SLC? I've never seen neither busses nor airstairs there, that's why I ask...

There are airstairs, but no busses, DL would have to buy them to complement the service, unless they can time all of their international flights so they can just use D2/D4/D6 gates.
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:30 am

I consider this hinkey at best. SLC's RWY's plus the lack of O&D (Yes, I know they can fill it up with connections) do not bode well for this supposition. LAX, IMHO would make more sense with their intended buildup there.

Add to that the fact that SLC's population appears to have peaked in 2000 and is now declining. Source: http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet..._state=04000US4&pctxt=fph&pgsl=010

DL has better (more profitable) places from which to start more transatl service...

For you SLC fans, lets hope I'm wrong...
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worldtraveler
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:57 am

Quoting Delta7004 (Reply 76):
Probably, unless SLC decides to give at least one runway another 2,000 ft of length to cope with a fully loaded 763ER. The 767s to Hawaii have a hard enough time coping in the late morning.

I'm sorry but you are not correct.

The limiting factor in SLC performance for a flight to CDG is tire speed. A 763ER at 400K lbs w/ the most powerful GE engines (which DL has) can take off in a little over 11K feet, right at the max speed for the tires. More runway won't help. The 12K SLC has is enough.

The 763s that fly to Hawaii are not ERs and the 764 is a substantially less powered version.

You need to have the facts and then read the data below if you want to come up with the right answer.

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/767sec3.pdf
 
DLOnur
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:03 pm

This is very interesting news.

I have yet to hear of this (or even rumors or hints or even anyone talking about this). If this news is true, the front line people would have heard some indication of this coming around (especially here out west where a one-stop connection to CDG would be huge news even in ABQ).

I'm not convinced this is a reality yet. We've got way too much to deal with already in JFK (god damn mess) and ATL with the possibility of LAX expansion.

Anyway, this would indeed be good news for the Mountain west of the US.

Good luck non-revving on that one....weights and balances are going to kill that flight.

-o-
ABQ
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WesternA318
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:05 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 75):
I guess I better ask my wife if she is up to spending a few days in Paris!

Does this mean I shouldplan on seeing you on the inaugural!??  bigthumbsup 
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:23 pm

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 77):
I consider this hinkey at best. SLC's RWY's plus the lack of O&D (Yes, I know they can fill it up with connections) do not bode well for this supposition. LAX, IMHO would make more sense with their intended buildup there.

LAX needs another flight to CDG like LAX needs another flight to LAS.. They are not going to add a LAX-CDG flight, as the route is more than covered with the 3x Air France 777 service. Not to mention the Air Tahiti Nui A340 service.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
WesternA318
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:24 pm

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 81):
LAX needs another flight to CDG like LAX needs another flight to LAS.. They are not going to add a LAX-CDG flight, as the route is more than covered with the 3x Air France 777 service. Not to mention the Air Tahiti Nui A340 service

Isnt one LAX-CDG AF flight on a 744?
 
LawnDart
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:45 pm

Quoting Delta7004 (Reply 76):
The 767s to Hawaii have a hard enough time coping in the late morning.



Quoting Delta7004 (Reply 76):
the 764 which takes off without restictions to HNL

Actually, given the same meteolo...metrolog...weather conditions, the 764 to HNL has performance limitations more often than the 767-300 to OGG does. The 764 is a performance pig.
 
FreequentFlier
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:52 pm

Haha, after viewing that clip, I have to say that was the cheesiest newscast I've ever seen.

But from a business perspective - Skyteam hub to Skyteam hub plus subsidies from SLC airport = probably winner. Keep in mind, this is not just SLC-CDG nonstop. Its basically SLC to the world 1 stop (using AF's incredible feed).
 
sq452
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:05 pm

Quoting FreequentFlier (Reply 84):
Haha, after viewing that clip, I have to say that was the cheesiest newscast I've ever seen. But from a business perspective - Skyteam hub to Skyteam hub plus subsidies from SLC airport = probably winner. Keep in mind, this is not just SLC-CDG nonstop. Its basically SLC to the world 1 stop (using AF's incredible feed).

I can't view the clip cause i'm on a mac and it wont load, but I have to say that the article wasn't written very well. SkyTeam hub to SkyTeam hub makes a ton of sense, I can't imagine SLC>CDG O&D traffic will be too high, but the connections in SLC to CDG, or the connections in CDG to elsewhere will be quite significant.

Way to go SLC!  Smile
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
MastaHanky
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:18 pm

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 77):

Add to that the fact that SLC's population appears to have peaked in 2000 and is now declining. Source: http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet...l=010

Salt Lake City itself is actually fairly small, and a small dip in the population doesn't surprise me at all.

But if you look ten miles to the south at Draper, South Jordan, Herriman, etc, you'll find numbers increasing quite a bit more:

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet..._GCTPH1_ZI1&-format=ST-9S&-_sse=on

In the top 50 of that list, only #8, #26, #38 and #43 wouldn't use SLC as their originating airport (and #26 only has flights to SLC). So while Salt Lake City's population may have declined slightly, the area that SLC serves is still growing quite nicely.
 
goldorak
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:38 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 82):
Isnt one LAX-CDG AF flight on a 744?

not anymore : A340 & B777
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:29 pm

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 87):
not anymore : A340 & B777

Actually the 340 just goes LAX-PPT now. We have 772 and 77W's on the LAX-CDG.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
MAH4546
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 3:32 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 88):
Actually the 340 just goes LAX-PPT now. We have 772 and 77W's on the LAX-CDG.

A340 operates a Monday frequency to Paris in order to rotate it in and out, since there is no A340 based in PPT or LAX.
a.
 
flyorski
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:35 pm

Quoting WhoopWhoop (Reply 71):
lack of a near by suitable alternate with customs.

A lot of airports out west have this problem. Same goes for PHX, DEN, etc. Not really a big deal!

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 77):
Add to that the fact that SLC's population appears to have peaked in 2000 and is now declining. Source:

Your looking at the city SLC, you need to look at the larger area over all, which is one of the fastest growing places in the U.S.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
positiverate
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:38 pm

Quoting Flyorski (Reply 90):
Your looking at the city SLC, you need to look at the larger area over all, which is one of the fastest growing places in the U.S.

And the feed into the hub...
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 77):
consider this hinkey at best. SLC's RWY's plus the lack of O&D (Yes, I know they can fill it up with connections) do not bode well for this supposition. LAX, IMHO would make more sense with their intended buildup there.

SLC had at least 11 million O&D passengers during 2006. This is significantly more than places such as CVG, PIT or STL. LAX is well covered with CDG flights by AF 3x per day as FLYGUY767 eluded to above, along with TN's 1x.

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 77):
Add to that the fact that SLC's population appears to have peaked in 2000 and is now declining. Source:

Obviously you're only looking at Salt Lake City proper. Try looking at Salt Lake County (978,000 in '06) along with Utah, Davis & Weber counties, then you'll have more of a true idea of how populous the Wasatch Front has become.

Quoting MastaHanky (Reply 86):
So while Salt Lake City's population may have declined slightly, the area that SLC serves is still growing quite nicely.

 checkmark  People in Utah love small municipalities as your link obviously shows.

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 80):
Does this mean I should plan on seeing you on the inaugural!??

She'll want to stay longer than either of us can afford!  biggrin 
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 92):
LAX is well covered with CDG flights by AF 3x per day as FLYGUY767 eluded to above, along with TN's 1x.

 checkmark   checkmark 

DL's only hope at LAX is to find holes in the market and LAX-CDG isnt one of them.

I personally think DL succeeding at LAX is a long shot. They expect to waltz right in and be able to throw out a bunch of new international routes like they do at ATL and make money. This isnt ATL. ATL has virtually no competition on the international level and LAX is full of that. In my mind LAX expansion is a mistake for DL. They wont make much money here. Thats why I think SLC-CDG would be a good move for DL. SLC is a growing area and is a good western hub. It would be alot easier to transit there than in ORD, ATL, DFW, or any other huge hub airport. I think this flight (if it happens, because im still a bit skeptical for the same reasons as Dutchjet) can pull alot from all of the west coast airports except LAX, SFO and SEA because they have nonstops already to CDG.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
whoopwhoop
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 78):
I'm sorry but you are not correct.

The limiting factor in SLC performance for a flight to CDG is tire speed. A 763ER at 400K lbs w/ the most powerful GE engines (which DL has) can take off in a little over 11K feet, right at the max speed for the tires. More runway won't help. The 12K SLC has is enough.

The 763s that fly to Hawaii are not ERs and the 764 is a substantially less powered version.

You need to have the facts and then read the data below if you want to come up with the right answer.

Oh, OK. . I figure the "facts" would be the AWABS generated by dispatch sent via ACARS before push back to CDG. Performance for each takeoff is generated by Delta for the specific airport being operated from by taking into account specific terrrain clearance, weather, enroute and landing requirements,and Delta operational requirements such MELs, Green Pages, noise abatement etc etc.. To put it simply, they dont just flip open a Boeing book and say "that darn tire speed".

Having that extra engine is a bonus rememember. : )

So your booking down the runway at 165kts , the nose is just coming off the ground and you cough up the #2 motor on your illustrious GE powered, gross weight ER? Was tire speed ever your limiting factor?

Is the airplane runway limited, climb limited or tire speed limited?

By your comments, it sounds as if you would know, are tire speed limitations on each aircraft type taken into consideration during the AWABS performance calculation? If so, are they part of the Runway limit number or Climb limit number as I have never seen it stated "Take off performance limited by tire speed" on AWABS

I just wouldnt plan on NONreving to Paris in July from SLC

Cheers
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop

Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:31 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 92):
Obviously you're only looking at Salt Lake City proper. Try looking at Salt Lake County (978,000 in '06) along with Utah, Davis & Weber counties, then you'll have more of a true idea of how populous the Wasatch Front has become.

Even a metro pop of 1mil, is not a very strong case for a long transatl flight. If UA can't support an SFO-CDG flight (it was pulled a few years ago IIRC), I seriously doubt DL @ SLC can, even with the SkyTeam feed.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 92):
SLC had at least 11 million O&D passengers during 2006. This is significantly more than places such as CVG, PIT or STL. LAX is well covered with CDG flights by AF 3x per day as FLYGUY767 eluded to above, along with TN's 1x.

I don't disagree. I don't think current market demands warrant service from STL or PIT either. CVG is a hub traffic funnel for the Mideast U.S. It's geographically much better suited for transatl flights than SLC. CVG wouldn't have service either, save for the fact they have the DL hub there.

As far as LAX goes, I didn't specifically mean LAX-CDG, I meant LAX-transatl (anywhere). My post was unclear, my bad.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Sat Aug 04, 2007 1:54 am

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 95):
CVG is a hub traffic funnel for the Mideast U.S. It's geographically much better suited for transatl flights than SLC.

A quick review of Delta Air Lines Salt Lake City operation combined with geography proves your insistence about Salt Lake City to be vastly incorrect.

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 95):
Even a metro pop of 1mil, is not a very strong case for a long transatl flight. If UA can't support an SFO-CDG flight (it was pulled a few years ago IIRC), I seriously doubt DL @ SLC can, even with the SkyTeam feed.

United Airlines could not maintain the service as they were going against a non Star Alliance airline that had feed at CDG, much to the digress of United Airlines. Remember that the only TATL routes from the West Coast with United Airlines metal are to Star Alliance hub markets Heathrow and Frankfurt. Paris did not work after years of trying from both Los Angeles and San Francisco as there was no feed on the CDG end of the operation. Hence the passengers on the flight had to be O/D or connecting to other airlines in the market.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 93):
DL's only hope at LAX is to find holes in the market and LAX-CDG isnt one of them.

There are at current two holes in the Los Angeles to Europe market those being Milan and Madrid..

However I am sure others would argue that Copenhagen, Manchester, and Brussels should be on that list..

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 77):
I consider this hinkey at best. SLC's RWY's plus the lack of O&D (Yes, I know they can fill it up with connections) do not bode well for this supposition. LAX, IMHO would make more sense with their intended buildup there.

The runway has nothing to do with it.. As World Traveler has mentioned and have others the runway is not the problem..

So you are supposing that Delta Air Lines adds yet another flight to the 4x daily LAX-CDG already in operation?

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 77):
DL has better (more profitable) places from which to start more transatl service...

Such as? Send a letter to Delta Air Lines and tell them what you think, since you elude to the fact that there are better markets that Delta should start more TATL service from..

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
dutchjet
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:27 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 96):
There are at current two holes in the Los Angeles to Europe market those being Milan and Madrid..

However I am sure others would argue that Copenhagen, Manchester, and Brussels should be on that list..

Milan: AZ could not make it work, even with a major hub at MXP.

Madrid: IB tried and failed, AA tried DFW-MAD and failed, I dont think its happening.

CPN: SAS flew LAX-Copehagen for years will airplanes filled to capacity and claims to have lost money on each and every flight.

MAN: BA tried MAN-LAX and it was a disaster.

BRU: Surely, you are kidding, BRU would have trouble supporting a west coast connection. AA and SN tried service to DFW, for example, the airplanes were either empty or filled with baragin passengers. The market is too limited and the feed on the BRU end is not there.

Granted, some of these routes were opened and closed years ago and may be worth a second look due to the stronger European hubs and stronger bonds among alliance members, but I think that many underestimate just how difficult the West Coast-Europe market is and how reliant many of these flight are on pax travelling to/from destinations beyond Europe. As you point out, that after years of trying, UA finally gave up on LAX/SFO-CDG; one would think that UA, with its huge presence in both LAX and SFO, could easily make a flight to a world destination such as Paris work and be successful.

As for SLC-CDG, its a tough call whether the flight will work and show a profit......sure DL will have no problem filling the airplane with pax looking for lower fares travelling between West Coast cities and Paris or beyond......and the flight could even find a niche market appealing to pax living in smaller western US cities that do not have nonstop service to Europe that will do anything to avoid backtracking to LAX or SFO to catch flights to Europe (or make connections in difficult airports like ORD or JFK), but what about the higher fare and premium pax? I really dont see J class pax flying LAX-SLC-CDG-DEL for example, and I dont think that there is a local market strong enough for those J class seats, so DL could have a problem.

As you point out above, I am waiting until August 13 to hear an announcment.
 
FLYGUY767
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RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:49 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 97):
Milan: AZ could not make it work, even with a major hub at MXP.

Alitalia had planned to return to LAX with the 777 in 2004.. The route was shelved due to the airlines internal problems..
I would also draw your attention to the fact that Los Angeles and San Francisco were both Cargo heavy routes, that certainly didn't suffer from a lack of demand. I flew both routes LAX-MXP 5x, and SFO-MXP 2x even in the dead of Winter those flights had good loads. The San Francisco route was added with the ill-equipped 767-300 the worst possible aircraft for the route and always went out weigh restricted, there was talk prior to 9-11 about a larger better performing aircraft being added to the route to replace the 767-300, as the route was proven to be a heavy Cargo route with decent pax loads and yields..

At the time of their suspension from service was due vastly in part to the 9-11 downturn in travel. There is a demand for service nonstop from the West Coast to Italy, the question is who will offer it? I cant tell you the exact number but there are a very healthy number of people travelling on KLM, Lufthansa, Air France, British Airways, Delta Air Lines, Continental Airlines and so forth on any given day to Los Angeles that have originated in Italy, or are heading to Italy.

I would refer you to BAW716, as he knows the Alitalia operations in the West Coast market best..


Petition for Alitalia to resume service to SFO in 2002

http://www.petitiononline.com/Alitalia/petition.html

Topic regarding the resumption of Alitalia LAX service in 2004
Status Of Alitalia: LAX-MXP (by FLYYUL Nov 30 2004 in Civil Aviation)


Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 97):
Madrid: IB tried and failed, AA tried DFW-MAD and failed, I dont think its happening.

Air Madrid announced the service with the A340 last year and then retracted due to internal issues..

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 97):
CPN: SAS flew LAX-Copehagen for years will airplanes filled to capacity and claims to have lost money on each and every flight.

MAN: BA tried MAN-LAX and it was a disaster.

BRU: Surely, you are kidding, BRU would have trouble supporting a west coast connection. AA and SN tried service to DFW, for example, the airplanes were either empty or filled with bargain passengers. The market is too limited and the feed on the BRU end is not there.

Like I said above, I am sure there are people that would bring up Brussels, Copenhagen, and Manchester..

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 97):
I really dont see J class pax flying LAX-SLC-CDG-DEL for example, and I dont think that there is a local market strong enough for those J class seats, so DL could have a problem.

Contrary to what people seem to generalize there are more J markets on the West Coast than Los Angeles..

-JD

[Edited 2007-08-03 19:57:59]
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: DL To Announce SLC To Paris France... (nonstop)

Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:56 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 98):
Contrary to what people seem to generalize there are more J markets on the West Coast than Los Angeles..

Who ususally avoid double connections wherever possible. Do you consider SLC a strong J market?

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 98):
I flew both routes LAX-MXP 5x, and SFO-MXP 2x even in the dead of Winter those flights had good loads.

And loads and yeilds are two entirely different stories.....there is no problem filling up the airplanes, the problem is making money with the flight.



Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 98):
I cant tell you the exact number but there are a very healthy number of people travelling on KLM, Lufthansa, Air France, British Airways, Delta Air Lines, Continental Airlines and so forth on any given day to Los Angeles that have originated in Italy, or are heading to Italy.

But there is no certainty that these passengers would select the nonstop flight if offered. You know its not that simple.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 98):
Like I said above, I am sure there are people that would bring up Brussels, Copenhagen, and Manchester..

You brought it up.

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