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HowSwedeitis
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RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:39 am

"I think we're going by road..." LOL!!!  Silly What a terrible ordeal for both the inbound, and outbound PAX on that aircraft.
Heja Sverige!!
 
ebs757
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RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:56 am

That's ridicules on EK's part. Ive seen trucks pull up to aircraft to hand the pilots paper work out on the taxi way but they couldn't stop, get stairs and have some buses to take the passengers ?
Viva la Vida
 
CXfirst
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RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:40 pm

Quoting 777STL (Reply 7):
Quoting Kaitak (Reply 1):
Fifteen minutes my foot! More like an hour and fifteen minutes, depending on traffic.

The pax didn't get off the plane, i.e. they were flying the plane over to LGW.

Not traffic to the airport, but the traffic in the air landing at LGW, and for the departure from LHR.

Interesting story, If I was on that flight (in the shoes of a passenger not an a.netter  Wink ), I would want a compensation for having been on a long flight landing at my intended airport, and then having to fly out again for another hour and 40 minutes, just to land at the neighbouring airport.

-CXfirst
 
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hummingbird
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RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:03 pm

Flight EK005 had promised a welcome escape from dry-roasted Dubai. The afternoon sun threatened to melt the city, with the temperature climbing to 44C (111F): warm enough to make the traveller sweat more than a price-fixing airline executive. The heat also delayed our departure. Every seat on the Boeing 777 was full, and the belly of the jet was laden with our luggage and extra freight. Hot air provides less lift, and engines cannot develop so much power. The weight had to be reduced. So at the time we were supposed to leave, apron staff began the long, hot business of offloading cargo. This hold-up was compounded by air-traffic control delays, and we sat amid the heat-haze for over an hour.

Correct me if I am wrong. I am surprised the 777-300 was not able to accommodate the cargo on such a short hop.
The sky is the limit, but never stop grasping until you get the glory cloud..
 
GARUDAROD
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RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Sun Aug 05, 2007 1:24 pm

This reminds me of an incident many years ago with PeoplExpress at CVG. I was the night manager
for the handling agent. We were advised that the last trip of the night had cancelled and accordingly
sent the staff home. I was doing some paperwork and there was one other person in the office when
the ops radio sprang to life with the said cancelled flight calling in to to advise eta and what gate to
expect. A few moments of scratching heads insued as we advised the captain we were informed the
flight had been cancelled. Turns out they never bothered to cancel the flight from EWR and the
flight proceeded as planned. It was very interesting unloading the B737 with just myself and a lead.
Strange things do happen in aviation!
Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
 
WunalaYann
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RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:52 pm

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 49):
I fail to see how this event suggests anything like it! Could you clarify please?

Sure.

A plane with a clear flight path takes off from DXB heading for LHR. Somehow upon landing the crew is told that they were/are supposed to land at LGW.

Doesn't it spell "miscommunication"?

An aircraft does not fall from the sky onto the airport like a stone. The EK plane would have communicated with LHR ATC long before touching down - no groundbreaking news here. At such a congested airport, if a plane asked for landing clearance without being allocated a slot, unless it is an emergency, it should have triggered a quick investigation by either ATC or BAA, preferably both.

Either or both bodies should have communicated with EK, asking for confirmation of the flight path before putting the plane on final approach.

Does that respond to your request for clarification?  Smile

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 49):
As far as I can tell, no fault lies with BAA and ATC...

If you can forgive my biblical reference here, I would say that the original sin does not lie with either. But they should have been a little bit more proactive in responding to EK's mistake.

Cheers.
 
MHG
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RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Sun Aug 05, 2007 5:03 pm

Although it´s rediculouson EK´s side to let the flight leave DXB so heavy under these circumstances i think it was some sort of gambling with slots.

Here´s a guess what could have happened:

1) The flight was scheduled to arrive at LHR
2) During the flight there occurred some stronger than expected headwinds or similar problem...
3) OPS organized the LHR departing pax to be transferred to LGW as soon as it was clear they wouldn´t make it in time for the LHR filed LHR slot. At LGW they secured a slot to fit the actual flight.
4) The a/c was even more behind of its flightplan and not able to get the filed slot at LGW !
5) At the same time there opened a slot at LHR
6) So, OPS/cockpit crew decided to land at LHR to avoid diverting to a much further away alternate airport
7) Finally the a/c was ferried with pax to LGW as soon as a dep.slot at LHR and an arr. slot at LGW was availlable...
8) This was done because groundstaff at LHR was not prepared for handling the flight. (probably the staff was sent to LGW as the flight was expected there and thus not availlable / able to return in good time to LHR plus transferring the London originating pax back to LHR would mess things up even more...

[Edited 2007-08-05 10:10:07]
Flying is not inherently dangerous but it is very unforgiving in case of carelessness, incapacity or neglect.
 
9VSIO
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RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Sun Aug 05, 2007 6:30 pm

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 55):
Somehow upon landing the crew is told that they were/are supposed to land at LGW.

Don't airline dispatch tell LHR Ground the a/c's gate well in advance? How was ATC supposed to know anything was wrong before issuing taxi instructions? At KBOS, I frequently hear Ground asking aircraft what gate they have been assigned to, perhaps another a/c was in EK005's gate (the one the PIC thought he was going to) and it was there that the error was uncovered. Do airlines still call their ops when on the ground?

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 55):
. At such a congested airport, if a plane asked for landing clearance without being allocated a slot, unless it is an emergency

At such a congested airport, surely the controllers have better things to do than run around double checking that a flight's destination was the same as the one stated in it's original flight plan. The flight still had a landing slot,

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 55):
But they should have been a little bit more proactive in responding to EK's mistake.

I respectfully disagree. How exactly could they have been more proactive than what they already did? I suppose you could read it as EK moved the pax to LGW, hence BAA should have been aware that something funny was going on. Well, for all they know the a/c was indeed landing at LGW, and when they see it land at LHR, I'm sure they shrugged their shoulders and wondered what EK was up to.

Equally ATC could have noticed that the flight plan for the return flight had been canceled. But LHR Clearance handles outbound flight plans, not Tower or Appch. Nothing would have set off any alarm bells. To them, the return flight might have been canceled altogether - that doesn't mean the plane can't land at LHR. If PIC doesn't tell anyone he's diverting, and no one tells ATC that EK005 isn't meant to be there, all the paperwork is in order, and the plane can land. In fact, it sounds like they even gave him the original dept slot, the one that was meant to be canceled!

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 39):

BAA TDM would probably either have told the Airport Duty Manager, who is the highest person on duty at LHR incharge of thw whole LHR operation (the one you see driving a VW Sharon with ADM on the side), or not bothered as they didn't really need to know.

The ADM is pretty much the only person from BAA who is in regular contact with ATC/NATS regarding serious operational issues, and again if they had actually been advised by the T3 TDM that the EK was going to LGW, they would just assume the airline had taken care of everything else and not bothered telling ATC as one a/c going to another destination isn't very serious unless it is an emergency.

So again, nothing at all to do with ATC or BAA screwing up - only one company screwed up - EK.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark  Welcome to my RR list  Smile

But hey, what do I know? I'm just a poor PPL  Wink
Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
 
otnysaslhr
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 4:48 am

RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:10 pm

Quoting LHRBlueSkies (Reply 21):
a rule of thumb is, if you speak to the airport in advance, they are normally pretty accommodating in letting you break the curfew, because they don't want 300+ pax stranded at their airport overnight.

No chance at LHR - it used to be the case that in exceptional circumstances that a flight would be granted dispensation to operate during "Curfew Hours" that all changed in about 2004 and since then there has been absolutely no leeway in the "Curfew Hours"

Quoting Qantasguy (Reply 30):
So why did LHR ATC not have anything to say to the Captain about his approach to the airport? Do ATC allow just anyone to land if they radio a request? I would think ATC would have had an idea of who was expected, and when these guys showed up, alerted the Captain. I do however stand to be corrected

The original flight plan showed as LHR - it appears that EK Ops did not refile therefore ATC would have no reason to query Destination airport.

Quoting EK156 (Reply 33):
But I have to say that if BAA were informed about the diversion then approach at LHR would already know and divert the pilot or atleast inform him to contact EK OPS. Seems that all the initial measure on ground were done but they were either done

No - there would have been no need for BAA to contact ATC regarding flight cancellation/diversion - it's not the BAA's responsibility it's the airlines / ground handler

Quoting LHRBlueSkies (Reply 37):
And as we have said, the a/c landed well before curfew, so could have been turned around, and if they had spoken to the ODM then probably got dispensation to depart after 2329L

As mentioned above - No Chance

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 57):
Don't airline dispatch tell LHR Ground the a/c's gate well in advance?

No - certainly at LHR the stand is allocated by Heathrow Ground Operations (HAL) when flt on finals - if you're lucky
Quite often at that time of night they have to await for the first gate in the terminal to be vacant.


With the aircraft landing at 2130 and on chocks/gate at 2145, it may well have been the case that no departure slot was available for 2300-2330 period, which it would have needed in order to offload pax, bags and cargo and therefore the cancelled Departure slot of EK006 of 2130 - STD 2115 plus 15 taxi out, would have been re-instated . This would have enabled them to take on fuel only and get in the departure queue.
I'm not trying to excuse the originla c**k-up.
oTny
 
vv701
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RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:12 pm

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 47):
Most wouldn't have been on OVERtime, they would have been on normal time, as the a/c is a normal regular scheduled flight, so the staff would be there anyway. The ramp staff would not have been sent home, they would have been utilised elsewhere in the operation on other contracts/airlines.

The aircraft might have been on a 'normal regular scheduled flight' but it had been diverted to LGW by the airline's management. Although it was running late and not expected to arrive at LHR at all you think that 'the staff would be there anyway'. I do not.

As far as EK staff are concerned it seems probable to me that those who would have handled the arrival of EK005 and the departure of EK006 at LHR were supervising the transfer of passengers to LGW for the revised EK006 flight. Once at LGW I would have expected these staff to be involved in the disembarkation of EK005 and the boarding of EK006. If other staff were called in to replace them at LHR (which is most unlikely as the next expected EK movement would have been the arrival of EK007 the following morning scheduled at 7.05 am) they would have been on call-out and overtime rates.

As far as the ramp staff and other contractors are concerned there is not much to do late at night even at LHR. The not-diverted EK005 flight arrived there unexpectedly (according to the article) at 9.40 pm. But at 9.40 pm there are only two remaining scheduled arrivals at LHR T3, the terminal used by EK. They are UA922 scheduled at 9.55 pm from IAD and AA090 scheduled at 10.40 pm from ORD. While you might expect a full complement of staff to be on duty I would expect a minimal level of staff to be employed to handle just two flights, a 763 and a 772, in a one hour period.

It is my assessment that the most probable reason that the EK005 passengers had to stay on board for the LHR-LGW flight was that there were insufficient staff on duty at T3 to safely and efficiently handle the disembarkation of the passengers and the unloading of their baggage.
 
nzrich
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Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:51 pm

RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:36 pm

Quoting Cumulus (Reply 42):
All major airlines have major screw ups on a regualr basis, like any other operation of a similar magnitude.

Yes but i have to say its the first time i have heard of a airline flying passengers to their destination landing and then flying them away from their destination !!!!
"Pride of the pacific"
 
otnysaslhr
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 4:48 am

RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:43 pm

Quoting Nzrich (Reply 60):
Yes but i have to say its the first time i have heard of a airline flying passengers to their destination landing and then flying them away from their destination

Actually - the airline was contracted to carry passengers to London and in fact were diembarked at London!
LGW is a London Airport.
However, having said that I understand the anger of passengers having arrived at their destination only to be disembarked 25miles away!

Quoting VV701 (Reply 59):
As far as the ramp staff and other contractors are concerned there is not much to do late at night even at LHR. The not-diverted EK005 flight arrived there unexpectedly (according to the article) at 9.40 pm. But at 9.40 pm there are only two remaining scheduled arrivals at LHR T3, the terminal used by EK. They are UA922 scheduled at 9.55 pm from IAD and AA090 scheduled at 10.40 pm from ORD. While you might expect a full complement of staff to be on duty I would expect a minimal level of staff to be employed to handle just two flights, a 763 and a 772, in a one hour period.

Yes but there are substantially more departures 2130-2330 than the 2 arrivals both of which are handled by different ground handlers.
oTny
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3544
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:59 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 59):
Although it was running late and not expected to arrive at LHR at all you think that 'the staff would be there anyway'. I do not.

OK don't believe me then, where do you work again ?. I actually work at LHR in T3, I think I know what I'm talking about. Unlike some on this site, I am not in the habit of being an armchair ceo and posting random rubbish unless I have an insight into what went on or might possibly have happened from an insiders point of view. Of course the staff would have been there anyway. They were rostered on shit for goodness sake, the handling company have staff there until midnight, or later if flights are running late.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 59):
As far as EK staff are concerned it seems probable to me that those who would have handled the arrival of EK005 and the departure of EK006 at LHR were supervising the transfer of passengers to LGW for the revised EK006 flight.

This is possible, I was merely reffering to the ramp operation in relation to the loading/unloading.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 59):
As far as the ramp staff and other contractors are concerned there is not much to do late at night even at LHR.

Wanna bet. A loading team normally consists of 4-5 guys. They could easily be deployed elsewhere on the other airlines the handling agent handles, and there are still plenty of other flights departing around that time.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 59):
But at 9.40 pm there are only two remaining scheduled arrivals at LHR T3, the terminal used by EK. They are UA922 scheduled at 9.55 pm from IAD and AA090 scheduled at 10.40 pm from ORD.

Might only be 2 scheduled arrivals, but there are plenty of DEPARTURES, we also don't know how many other arrivals might have been coming in late too. AA and UA both have their own staff at LHR, so they would have nothing to do with the EK flight.

Quote:
WunalaYann

Didn't you read the last few lines in my reply no.39 ?.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the catering. The return flight would normally be catered by a unit at LHR. I wonder if they had sent the food for the return flight by road to LGW which is possible, or alternatively they could have got the LGW unit to produce the meals for the return flight instead and didn't have any prepared at LHR as they had been advised the flight was going to go to direct LGW.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
LHRBlueSkies
Posts: 321
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RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:14 am

Quoting OtnySASLHR (Reply 58):
No chance at LHR

Err, yes chance, provided you give them sufficient notice, and all the night quote for the week hasn't been used up.

Quoting OtnySASLHR (Reply 58):
As mentioned above - No Chance

Err, as mentioned above - Yes Chance.

Quoting OtnySASLHR (Reply 58):
Quite often at that time of night they have to await for the first gate in the terminal to be vacant.

Not really...

Quoting OtnySASLHR (Reply 58):
no departure slot was available for 2300-2330 period,

If they are departing on the same day as the scheduled fight, then extra slot is required, provided the flight plan has been delayed. If it's operating a different day, that's another ballgame.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 59):
insufficient staff on duty at T3

I think you and OtnySASLHR must be best buddies, 'cos you are both talking the same trash!

Ek screwed up. If they had got organised, there is every chance the a/c could have been turned around within 90 minutes and been given a few minutes dispensation with regards the curfew.
Not ATC balls up.
Not BAA balls up.
EK EK EK EK EK EK EK!
flying is the safest form of transport - until humans get involved!
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:36 am

Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 45):

I don't know about LHR but some others like SNA will not budge more then 5 or 10 min.

SJC is rather bad too...
"Up the Irons!"
 
vv701
Posts: 5895
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Mon Aug 06, 2007 12:53 am

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 62):
I actually work at LHR in T3, I think I know what I'm talking about.

Thank you for your courteous and polite comments. I have given my suggested reasons as to why EK did not let the passengers on EK005 disembark at LHR. You have refuted them more than vehemently. But with all your detailed local knowledge you have not come up with a coherent alternative suggestion. So until you use your local knowledge I will put logical argument ahead of your unwarranted crudities.

Quoting OtnySASLHR (Reply 61):
Actually - the airline was contracted to carry passengers to London and in fact were diembarked at London!
LGW is a London Airport.

Actually their destination that is clearly stated on their flight coupons, was to be carried from DXB to LHR . And EK offers their customers 5 flights a day from to LHR and, quite separately, 3 flights a day to LGW and not eight flights a day to LON.

But despite this, say you are right. At 1.15 am (according to the article) all the passengers had disembarked from EK005 at LGW and are waiting in the arrivals hall when the first piece of baggage off their flight arrives on the carousel. These passengers are actually in London Gatwick Airpot located in West Sussex. Some forty-two miles away some of these passengers will have their cars parked in an LHR long term car park. But EK have apparently lived up to their contract by carrying them to London. So it is clearly those passengers with cars parked at LHR own responsibility to find a way of getting to an airport that has closed down for the night and will not reopen for another four or five hours. Bet their view was rather different to yours!
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3544
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:56 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 65):
But with all your detailed local knowledge you have not come up with a coherent alternative suggestion.

Thats because I cannot think of a logical reason why they kept them on the a/c based on what facts we do know. As I said in my earlier replies, the ramp staff were still there, the a/c would have taken on fuel for the flight which would have left enough time to offload pax and bags and what cargo was still left at LHR leaving enough time to get the a/c down to LGW. I also said in an earlier reply that even the best thought out plans can and do go wrong, so maybe a decision was taken to "splash and dash" which the staff probably thought wouldn't have taken as long as it did, and by the time they realised how long it was going to take, was then too late to start offloading as it would have taken even longer which by then was probably pushing crew hours to ferry the a/c, and no doubt the o/b crew was being transferred to LGW by road.

An alternative plan could have been to offload the pax/bags/cargo at LHR, and had the o/b crew ferry the a/c to LGW but as I said earlier, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 65):
your unwarranted crudities

I'm sorry, but I fail to see where I have been crude. All I have done is disagreed with you disputing what I had already said by using my

Quoting VV701 (Reply 65):
detailed local knowledge

.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 65):
Thank you for your courteous and polite comments.

Your welcome.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
otnysaslhr
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 4:48 am

RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:12 am

Quoting LHRBlueSkies (Reply 63):
Quoting OtnySASLHR (Reply 58):
No chance at LHR

Err, yes chance, provided you give them sufficient notice, and all the night quote for the week hasn't been used up.

Quoting OtnySASLHR (Reply 58):
As mentioned above - No Chance

Err, as mentioned above - Yes Chance.

No - as I explained that used to be the case before 2004. Now only if there has been severe disruption due to Weather/ ATC problems or similar non airline associated problems will departures in the "Curfew Hours"

Quoting OtnySASLHR (Reply 58):
Quite often at that time of night they have to await for the first gate in the terminal to be vacant.

Not really...
I can assure that I have known A/C on schedule arriving 2100 and waiting 40 mins to get a pier served gate.
There's only a finite no of gates avail at LHR (T3) and it only takes 1 or 2 flights to have missing passengers or late ATC slot to throw the whole gate allocation system out.
Quoting OtnySASLHR (Reply 58):
no departure slot was available for 2300-2330 period,

I am surmising that the original EK006 departure and therefore departure slot was cancelled.

Catering would have been shipped to LGW by road as it would take far too long for cterers at LGW to make up the required meals and stores - assuming they EK galley equipment available.

Once the EK006 had been cancelled everything would have been geared up for an LGW departure.
As EK006 was due off at 2115z and EK005 didn't land until 2040z It is safe to assume that passengers were in the process of being transferred to LGW as also the catering vehicles. The outbound crew also would be on their way from their hotel. Also EK LHR staff would be with pax on coaches or en route by car to LGW. It would have been far too late to change back to an LHR departure.
No airline wants to divert a flight - it causes so many problems - and having looked at the overall picture with regard to the arrival and obviously I would imagine they contacted the ODM to enquire as to the possibility of delayed departure time in the "Curfew Hours" which was not forthcoming, they obviously decided that it was not worth the risk of stranding the flight at LHR if they cpould operate from LGW.
However it all went wrong because EK forgot to advise the A/C to divert to LGW.

My comments regarding the contract were tongue in cheek. Most airlines worth their salt would arrange transport to city centre or airport as required.
oTny
 
otnysaslhr
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 4:48 am

RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:26 am

Quoting LHRBlueSkies (Reply 63):
I think you and OtnySASLHR must be best buddies, 'cos you are both talking the same trash!

I don't know VV701 - and I object to your "Trash" remark. My comments, as always, are based on 45 years experience in operations/despatch at LGW and LHR - so please give me the benefit that I do know what I am talking about.
However, I will admit that things may have changed a bit since I retired in 2005. (But not that much)
oTny
 
XXXX10
Posts: 707
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2000 7:10 am

RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:34 am

There is something that I don't understand here.

Wouldn't one of the pilots have to disembark to do a walk-around, if this is the case then it must have been possible for the passengers to disembark even if they would have to wait for the luggage at LGW.

I understand that it would be complicated to recalculate the load-sheet if some of the pax wanted to stay aboard and re-claim their bags at LGW.
 
9VSIO
Posts: 654
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:00 pm

RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:55 am

Quoting XXXX10 (Reply 69):

Wouldn't one of the pilots have to disembark to do a walk-around, if this is the case then it must have been possible for the passengers to disembark even if they would have to wait for the luggage at LGW.

I doubt that they would need one. In some quick-turnaround carriers, the mechs perform the walkabout, Don't know how it works with EK. Even so, it would be far quicker than turning around a whole aircraft. Bare in mind that the a/c was not at a gate, so offloading pax takes even longer.

Also, to be honest, would you really want to risk you and your luggage going separate ways when you have a choice about it?
Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:57 am

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 62):
Quote:
WunalaYann

Didn't you read the last few lines in my reply no.39 ?.

Hmm, sorry but why are you quoting my username?  confused 

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 57):
At such a congested airport, surely the controllers have better things to do than run around double checking that a flight's destination was the same as the one stated in it's original flight plan.

And don't you think this is a bit, hmm, paradoxical at a time of airline paranoia? There basically is a plane flying wherever it pleases, regardless of official flight plan, over one of the most terrorism-targeted and densely populated urban areas in the world...  confused 

Anyway, again, I am not trying to pin the mistake on BAA or ATC's collective back. It is just the response to the situation that seems to me a bit odd considering the constant monitoring airlines are supposed to be under...

 Smile

In any case, it sure provides some entertainment relief to crew and some much needed freedom of movement...  Wink
 
otnysaslhr
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 4:48 am

RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:59 pm

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 71):
And don't you think this is a bit, hmm, paradoxical at a time of airline paranoia? There basically is a plane flying wherever it pleases, regardless of official flight plan, over one of the most terrorism-targeted and densely populated urban areas in the world...

The flight was not "flying wherever it pleases" it was flying according to filed flt plan - otherwise ATC would have directed it LGW. It would seem that as the Flight Crew were not aware of the change to destination they continued as per flight plan. Normally, as far as I know, any change to filed plan would come from the aircraft and as they didin't know they and ATC continued with flight into LHR
oTny
 
9VSIO
Posts: 654
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:00 pm

RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:20 pm

I believe he quoted your name because he felt that you seemed to completely miss the point of his post :P

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 71):
And don't you think this is a bit, hmm, paradoxical at a time of airline paranoia?

Nope, because airline security is rather different from airspace security. How is it flying wherever it pleases? It is going to it's stated destination!
Airline security is stopping them before they get on the a/c. If the a/c was really under duress, they could squawk 7500 and immediately let ATC know that they were suffering from unlawful interference.

The airspace above London is mostly Class A anyway, so not everyone can just waltz in there. You HAVE to be in touch with ATC. VFR flight is not permitted and must request SVFR permission to transit, at which point they become a controlled flight, seperated from other a/c. One of theses days I'm going to take my Cessna for a little trip through London CTR  Smile

If you really are worred about people flying wherever they please, it might interest you to know that the Chicago Convention (basically ICAO's charter) states that flights other than those on scheduled international transport can overfly other states WITHOUT prior permission. Yes, this means that I could go on a "local" training flight and have a wander into French airspace wthiout telling them in advance.

God how I hated the air law exam.

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 71):
the constant monitoring airlines are supposed to be under...

The aircraft are being constantly monitored, if nothing suspicious happens, why would you ask? Lets say you are in a secure building. You swipe in and head off for work, you won't find a security guard chasing after you double checking that you are indeed going to work. Have a listen in to New York center or JFK apprch on liveatc.com, you'll get an idea for just how busy they can get. As for monitoring airlines....well, the BA-VS price-fixing took a whistleblower before anything was detected :P

I seem to keep picking on you.It's nothing personal, just that I disagree with some of your comments - hope you don't mind.
Rgds,
9VSIO
Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Tue Aug 07, 2007 4:03 pm

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 73):
I believe he quoted your name because he felt that you seemed to completely miss the point of his post :P

And the funny thing is that I was not referring to his post.  Smile I confess that I had not even read it.

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 73):
I seem to keep picking on you.It's nothing personal, just that I disagree with some of your comments - hope you don't mind.

Buddy, if I minded being picked on I wouldn't spend bl**dy God knows how many dollars every year in a membership for this website...  biggrin  If I am here it is because I want to learn! So feel free to dissect my nonsense, I'll go to bed smarter than I got up...

Cheers.
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3544
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:13 am

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 74):
I confess that I had not even read it

ha ha, that explains it then !! You had asked things I had already tried to answer which is why I'd quoted you !!.

LOL !!.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
9VSIO
Posts: 654
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 5:00 pm

RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 74):
So feel free to dissect my nonsense, I'll go to bed smarter than I got up...

Precisely the attitude that is needed on here!  thumbsup  Welcome to my RR  Smile
Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
 
nzrich
Posts: 1105
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 9:51 pm

RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:16 am

Quoting OtnySASLHR (Reply 61):
Actually - the airline was contracted to carry passengers to London and in fact were diembarked at London! LGW is a London Airport. However, having said that I understand the anger of passengers having arrived at their destination only to be disembarked 25miles away!

Actually no the contract between the customer and the airline would of been LONDON LHR as the ticket states ..

Even thou the airline still delivered the passengers to London the passengers were still diverted ..
"Pride of the pacific"
 
WunalaYann
Posts: 2128
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:55 am

RE: Emirates Diverted To Gatwick - Pilot Not Told!

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:46 am

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 75):
ha ha, that explains it then !! You had asked things I had already tried to answer which is why I'd quoted you !!.

Yeah, welcome to me, mate... My life.  biggrin  I appreciate your effort and perseverence in trying to make me see the light when I am obviously much too busy not listening!! Thank you!  thumbsup 

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 76):
Precisely the attitude that is needed on here!

Ah, you mean that we need more dumbarses to pick on? Absolutely!  Smile

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 76):
Welcome to my RR

Thank you!  blush 

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