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EI321
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:34 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 47):
Quoting EI321 (Reply 43):
Theres a reason why they did not - demand for aircraft in the 400-500 seat segment is miniscule. Neither large enough to address slot constricted airports,

Aren't most operators configuring their A388 at about 500 seats?

Are you saying demand for the A388 is minuscule and it will do nothing for slot constricted airports?

I think we finally agree on something.

No games please. Im talking about the size of aircraft mentioned in the post I quoted - the 747. Some opators like BA might put in less seats but the A380 is marketed as a 525 seat aircraft.
 
planemaker
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:41 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 7):
The big question is just where the future of airline travel is headed. Are we going to continue to see large numbers of passengers go between a limited number of city pairs, such as New York and London, or will we see more and more point to point pairs as longer range smaller aircraft such as the 787 come on line? Many believe that is the case, and if the number of 747s now in service as compared to 20 years ago is any indication, we may well see even aircraft the size of 777s become "too large."



Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 36):
Looking as far ahead as we are, I wonder what China, India or Japan might be up to by that time, considering the joint A/C manufacturing ventures and unavoidable technology sharing being entered into at this time. There may be an independant third player in 15 years, with cheaper labor than in Europe or North America.

Not that I want to ruin anyone's "blue-skying" but we are talking about an EIS from 10 to 12 years from NOW!!!!

Just stop to think what the airline industry will be like... because it won't look like todays!!! Additionally, technology is going to continue to advance in many, many areas and it is going to have a larger impact than a lot of people realize.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:43 am

Quoting Helvknight (Reply 45):
Firstly the extra moment is going to mean a lot of strengthening around the barrel joints which will add weight

Why would it requiring strengthening the barrel joints? They're the strongest part of the fuselage already...they're the least likely to require additional strength.

Quoting Helvknight (Reply 45):
would be at risk of tailstrikes.

Boeing already has active tailstrike protection on the 737-900 and (I think) on the 777-300...I would assume this would be included on any 787 that was subject to such a risk.

Tom.
 
Buckeye
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:49 am

As I understand it, a 300 seat 787-10 based on the 4 bogey landing gear and current aircraft design would be a replacement for the 777-200ER. A 300 seat 787 replacement for the 777-200LR would require a larger engines, larger wings, larger fuel tanks, 6 bogey landing gear and additional strengthening. Wouldn't it make more sense for Boeing to consider this work sometime later when it could address the 787F as well? IMO two 300 seat 787s are needed but rushing to replace the 777-200LR before the limits of the current designs are known would be a mistake.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:24 am

Quoting Helvknight (Reply 45):

Nah, more likely he'll be abused by the Boeing Kool-aid drinkers for being an A fan.  sarcastic 

..haven't seen it yet..... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
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ER757
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:44 am

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 44):
The top five headlines of 2017 are hilarious:

You forgot one... "NW to retire DC9's  duck 

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 33):
Airbus has NO answer to the 788, which has over 500 orders by itself. They handed that market to Boeing by going for the 333-777 market.

Good point - it was probably the right move by Airbus - concede the market at the low end since the 788 is such a runaway sucess and go after the 789 & the 777 market (for which Boeing currently has no replacement). One would think the A350-1000 will be a superior aircraft to the 777. Of course the replacement cycle question is a good one too. Does Airbus have the timing right or will Boeing slip in from behind and hit the peak of the curve? Very interesting times indeed.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:24 am

Quoting ER757 (Reply 55):
You forgot one... "NW to retire DC9's

That's not 2017, that's 3017.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
baroque
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:03 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 28):
Granted, the change to jets was much bigger, but CFRP construction is the biggest new thing since then.

??? Fantastic as plastic is, surely even the 787 would be fairly restricted in its capabilities if it did not have high bypass engines? So after the change to jets, I would have thought the biggest advance has been in the engines, not the airframe?
 
astuteman
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:55 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 57):
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 28):
Granted, the change to jets was much bigger, but CFRP construction is the biggest new thing since then.


??? Fantastic as plastic is, surely even the 787 would be fairly restricted in its capabilities if it did not have high bypass engines? So after the change to jets, I would have thought the biggest advance has been in the engines, not the airframe?

Of course, when people say "CFRP construction is the biggest new thing", they're usually alluding solely to the CFRP barrels, thus restricting further their comments to something that represents about 10% of the entire aircraft.
Everything else seems to get forgotten, including spectacularly efficient engines, and what you can do with the wings when you design them from the outset with CFRP..........  Smile

Regards
 
mbj2000
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:42 pm

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 48):
The top five headlines of 2017 are hilarious:

A: Top Five Headlines in 2017:

"Airbus Board Resolves Dubai-Abu Dhabi Ownership Spat"
"Aeroflot Begins Serving US Domestic Market; Southwest Braces For Competition"
"Bombardier Continues CSeries Studies; Launch Possible In 2018"
"Vern Raburn: 'Mistakes Were Made'"
"2017: Year Of The Very Light Jet"

This is missing:
"Foot and mouth disease outbreak in UK"

my british friends, please don't kill me for that...  wave 
Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:30 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 58):
Of course, when people say "CFRP construction is the biggest new thing", they're usually alluding solely to the CFRP barrels, thus restricting further their comments to something that represents about 10% of the entire aircraft.
Everything else seems to get forgotten, including spectacularly efficient engines, and what you can do with the wings when you design them from the outset with CFRP..........

High bypass engines was certainly a big change, but in terms of obsoleting what existed before I think that the CFRP construction has had a bigger effect. If you looked at the scene in the 70's fuel was comparatively cheap (in terms of the percentage of a plane's operating expenses) so what high bypass engines did was enable much larger planes; the existing ones were not obsolete. In fact, 707's, 727's and 737 originals continued to be sold (in great numbers, at least for the 727) even while the larger planes with high bypass engines were much more efficient. CFRP planes offer more than just increased fuel economy; they have the potential of greatly increased life with much lower maintenance costs, and this as much as the fuel savings is why I believe that the airlines are clamoring for them. That is why I made the statement that I did about it being the biggest change since the advent of the jet. I offer as evidence the fact that John Leahy got laughed out of town when he tried to peddle the warmed-over A330 as an answer to the 787.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
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keesje
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:46 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
Quoting Aerohottie (Reply 25):
I personally believe Airbus would respond to a 773ER Y3 replacement with its own aircraft placed between the A350 and A380 with a possible 10-11 abreast single level Y configuration.

I honestly do not think Airbus will be in a position to respond with a new plane. They'll stretch the A350 to 80m and hope for the best.

Lets not forget the present situation: Airbus is in the driver seat & Boeing has to do something, ref. Richard' s article.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 31):
the B748I is nicely applying pressure to the A380..

Is it really?

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 33):
Not necessarily, because Airbus has NO answer to the 788, which has over 500 orders by itself.

I think Airbus sold "a few" A330's since Boeing launched the 787.

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 44):
The top five headlines of 2017 are hilarious:

A: Top Five Headlines in 2017:

"Airbus Board Resolves Dubai-Abu Dhabi Ownership Spat"
"Aeroflot Begins Serving US Domestic Market; Southwest Braces For Competition"
"Bombardier Continues CSeries Studies; Launch Possible In 2018"
"Vern Raburn: 'Mistakes Were Made'"
"2017: Year Of The Very Light Jet"

 Big grin Yeah he is a mean MF

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 60):
CFRP planes offer more than just increased fuel economy; they have the potential of greatly increased life with much lower maintenance costs, and this as much as the fuel savings is why I believe that the airlines are clamoring for them. That is why I made the statement that I did about it being the biggest change since the advent of the jet.

I think we have seen composites increasingly being applied for the last 25 years starting seriously with the A310. Since then increasing percentages were used. A380 25-30%, now 787 nearly 50%, A350 and Y3 probably more .. an evolutionary development rather then "the biggest change since the advent of the jet".
Lets not get carried away by "the biggest most effective & persistant PR campaign since the advent of the jet".  Wink
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Stitch
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:21 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 61):
Lets not forget the present situation: Airbus is in the driver seat & Boeing has to do something, ref. Richard' s article.

I'm not dissing Airbus when I say that. I just don't think Airbus can, in a period of less then a decade, launch the A350, the A320RS and a larger twin "A360".

It's the same reason why I do not agree with those who believe that Boeing will launch and preparing to EIS the 787-10, the 737RS, and Y3 all by 2015.
 
EA772LR
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:57 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 61):
I think Airbus sold "a few" A330's since Boeing launched the 787.

You're right, but I think many of these went to prior-Airbus airlines, and availability of the 330 vs. the 787. No doubt the A330 is great, really great, but the 787 will take it's place and will be selling LONG after the A330's are outdated. Afterall, the A330 is close to a 20 year old platform. And my point was, the 332 has outsold the 333 especially lately, and Airbus has decided not to build anything in that size category, which is why Boeing is receiving such strong demand in that seat class (A332-787-8)
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:15 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 61):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 31):
the B748I is nicely applying pressure to the A380..

Is it really?

 yes ....why is Airbus having such a hard time selling A380's to BA? If the B748 wasn't applying pressure to the A380, that BA A380 would have been "in the bag".

Leahy offered LH A380 at "abuse the plane prices" (I'll have to find the quote on it), yet LH purchased the B748I....

Quoting Keesje (Reply 61):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
Quoting Aerohottie (Reply 25):
I personally believe Airbus would respond to a 773ER Y3 replacement with its own aircraft placed between the A350 and A380 with a possible 10-11 abreast single level Y configuration.

I honestly do not think Airbus will be in a position to respond with a new plane. They'll stretch the A350 to 80m and hope for the best.

Lets not forget the present situation: Airbus is in the driver seat & Boeing has to do something, ref. Richard' s article.

So, for a manufacturer that is losing money, has its larger widebody planes (A356/A346) being stomped on by the competition, musical chairs with management, stock doing poorly, has to fire thousands of employees, has to vastly improve its cost structure, all the while has a competitor which is manufacturing and has sold the fastest widebody plane in aviation history....and you call that "being in the driver seat"? That's a bit scary.
"Up the Irons!"
 
EA772LR
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:25 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 64):
yes ....why is Airbus having such a hard time selling A380's to BA? If the B748 wasn't applying pressure to the A380, that BA A380 would have been "in the bag".

[quote=Jacobin777,reply=64]Leahy offered LH A380 at "abuse the plane prices" (I'll have to find the quote on it), yet LH purchased the B748I....

True indeed. Like it not Airbus cheerleaders, the 748I might not be a brand new plane, but it is affecting 380 sales I'd bet.

But they also ordered the 380  Wink
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
mbj2000
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 62):
Quoting Keesje (Reply 61):
Lets not forget the present situation: Airbus is in the driver seat & Boeing has to do something, ref. Richard' s article.

I'm not dissing Airbus when I say that. I just don't think Airbus can, in a period of less then a decade, launch the A350, the A320RS and a larger twin "A360".

It's the same reason why I do not agree with those who believe that Boeing will launch and preparing to EIS the 787-10, the 737RS, and Y3 all by 2015.

 checkmark 

Anyone who thinks that in the present situation or even in 8-10 years Airbus can throw an even bigger A350XWB XXL on the table should do a reality check!
I can only see NO-GOs:
- No reuse possible => Develop new tube + wing = lots of Euro$
- Engine not available, resp. nobody willing to develop one (quad is out of discussion)
- Market minuscule and/or it would kill off the A380 completely

Airbus must concentrate now on delivering an on-time and better-than-spec "killer" A350 and then think how to deal with a possible attack on the A32X...
Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:22 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 61):
Lets not get carried away by "the biggest most effective & persistant PR campaign since the advent of the jet".

However you want to categorize it, all airlines want CFRP planes and are only buying the competitors (i.e. A330) because they are available much sooner. If you think the A330 will continue to sell once the 787 is available in a competitive delivery schedule then I would really like to know what you are smoking. The same is going to happen as soon as other sized models are available; this level of demand shift has not happened since the introduction of the jet.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
TomB
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:02 am

Reference Boeing 787-10:

With Emirates and Qantas clamoring for both capacity and long range on the 787-10, I believe Boeing will increase the MTOW of the 787-10 from 540,000 lbs. to 560,000 lbs. so that they can achieve the maximum design capacity of the wing and landing gear.

As the fuselage of the 787-10 will be 20 feet longer than the 787-9, it will add approximately 10,000 lbs to the OEW. Likewise an increase in seating capacity from 259 passengers (8 abreast) to 301, will cause a 9,126 lb. increase in payload. To counteract the 19,126 lb. increase in OEW and payload, Boeing will have to increase the MTOW to 560,000 lbs.so that the 787-10 can take-off with the same useable fuel load as the 787-9.

As the fuel burn on the 787-10 will be about 10% higher than the 787-9 due to 20,000 lbs. extra weight and higher fuselage drag, the range will be reduced approximately 10% from that of a 787-9. Wide Body said the maximum range of the 787-9 was 8,800 NM. Boeing reduced their estimate to 8,500 NM. I believe a 560,000 lb. 787-10 can have a maximum range of 7,700 to 8,000 NM thus largely satisfying Emirates and Qantas.

I am also assuming Mike Bair and his engineers can take 4,000 lbs. out of the 787-10 OEW by optimizing the the composite structure. That would be 2.5% to 3% of the basic structural weight. Mike Bair said that structural improvements will result in a 5% efficiency gain.

A question for Boeing, why don't you increase the maximum altitude of the 787 from 41,000 feet to 45,000 feet so on the last half of a long flight, you can cruise at a very high altitude thus reducing drag and fuel burn?

I have no design expertise or inside information. I am merely extrapolating existing design information.

Tom B
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting TomB (Reply 68):
believe a 560,000 lb. 787-10 can have a maximum range of 7,700 to 8,000 NM thus largely satisfying Emirates and Qantas.

You are talking full passenger load. Not enough for QF in my view. They want to stuff it full of freight and go something like 6500nm.
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:52 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 26):
Widebodyphotog calculated that with a 540,000lb MTOW and current 787 engines, a 787-10 would fly 7600nm with a typical passenger payload. However, these figures were based on Boeing's old projections of an 8800nm range for the 787-9. That range has since shrunk about 300nm so one can imagine that the 787-10 is now closer to 7000nm, which is what Blair has said earlier this year and around 700nm less then the 777-200ER and with a lower total payload by upwards of 5t.

5t less payload yes, but range in the 7,500-7,700nm range is achievable at 540Klb MTOW. This is key because thrust growth for the current engines, especially the GEnX is unlikely... This gives the 787-10 the 777-200ER range in generic sense but excess payload suffers and range with acceptable commercial loads becomes about 5-600nm lower than the 777-200ER. Fuel requirements will be dramatically less but in a total capability analysis the 787-10 is still less capable than the latest 777-200ER and out classed by the 77L.

While I remain a big fan of the 787-10 as an airplane, I'm not so sure it's the best choice going forward. The payoff from re-engineering the 787 is a big payoff for the -9, -8 and gets the 787-10 to at or over 7,600nm but it does not create a 300 seat twin with ULH capability. To my mind the better way forward is to focus efforts into redeveloping or replacing the 777 line over the next 7-10 years. A "777-9" with 315 seats and 10,000nm range and a "777-10" with 380 seats and 8,500-9,000nm range is a more logical way forward for Boeing's lineup. The sticking point is Boeing's unwillingness to put the -200 777 models out to pasture and GE's unwillingness to develop GE90 size engines in the 85-100,000lbt range using GEnX architecture. However the reality is that replacement cycles are getting shorter and Boeing must respond effectively...

Airline operators are expecting a lot from a 787-10 and it would be a nice airplane, but it will only be able to do what a 777-200ER can do (with the shortfalls that go along with that like lower excess payloads) and not the -200LR. This creates the problem of a large operating cost gap between two airplanes, 787-10 and 777-200LR, and opening up the door for Airbus to basically own the 300 seat ULH market in the future. This is important as I think from this period on the 777-200LR will really come into it's own as an superb performing airplane and garner demand much like its bigger brother has if there is no competitive alternative readiliy available. In the interim Airbus is working on A350-900R that should by any estimate offer formidable competition to the 77L. Then what's Boeing's answer going to be? A tanked up franken-winged 787-10? I don't think so, it's not Boeing's way. That is more along the lines of what Airbus has done in the past and is not suitable for future products. The most effective choice is to revise/replace the 777 line with a "no comprimise" offering.


-widebodyphotog
If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
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Stitch
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:58 am

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 70):
The most effective choice is to revise/replace the 777 line with a "no comprimise" offering.

So launch the 787-10 "as-is" using 787-9 components as a bridge to Y3-100 and Y3-200 with an EIS towards 2020...

Frankly, it might make sense. 787-8 and 787-9 production is going to push back towards 2020, anyway, without a significant increase in production. And even if they do ramp up to 15 a month, adding the 787-10 is going to eat much of that extra. And Airbus isn't going to be pushing out 15 A350s a month from Day One. I expect ramp-up will be years for them, as well.

So 787/747 full EIS in 2010, 737RS full EIS in 2015 and Y3 full EIS in 2020. Spreads it out enough to give you some slack and lets you leverage current models (737NG/777) to maximum advantage while being able to counter Airbus' new products.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:03 pm

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 70):
To my mind the better way forward is to focus efforts into redeveloping or replacing the 777 line over the next 7-10 years. A "777-9" with 315 seats and 10,000nm range and a "777-10" with 380 seats and 8,500-9,000nm range is a more logical way forward for Boeing's lineup. The sticking point is Boeing's unwillingness to put the -200 777 models out to pasture and GE's unwillingness to develop GE90 size engines in the 85-100,000lbt range using GEnX architecture. However the reality is that replacement cycles are getting shorter and Boeing must respond effectively...

...interesting observation WBG....you are one of the very few people on A.net who advocate such a direction with the B777's (the redeveloping part of the comments at least)......also, I've always thought however the "ULR" will come either via the B788 or the B789 variants and not the possible B787-10.

On a side note, JL has improved its financial crisis (to a certain extent...)

"Japan Airlines parent JAL Group's strategy of focusing on high-yield business traffic appears to be paying dividends, evidenced by a narrowed fiscal first-quarter net loss of ¥4.2 billion ($36.8 million) for the three months ended June 30, a strong improvement over a ¥26.6 billion net loss in the year-ago quarter."

http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=9793
"Up the Irons!"
 
TKV
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:13 am

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
There are some really interesting points here about the 787-10 and A350-1000.

12 of the 15 B77ER UFOs booked by Boeing July 31 went to a sole purchaser

Could it be that QF (i.e. Dixon) decided they could not wait for eventual A3510 or B7810/11/10ER
and therefore ordered these B773ER to (partially ?) cover this requirement ??

If not, QR, EK ??

TKV

[Edited 2007-08-08 20:42:34]
 
EA772LR
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:36 am

Quoting TKV (Reply 73):

12 of the 15 B77ER UFOs booked by Boeing July 31 went to a sole purchaser



Quoting TKV (Reply 73):
Could it be that QF (i.e. Dixon) decided they could not wait for eventual A3510 or B7810/11/10ER
and therefore ordered these B773ER to (partially ?) cover this requirement ??

If not, QR, EK ??

Doubtful it would be QF. They've had the option to buy the 77W/L for a while now. I think you may be right however on QR and EK.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
TKV
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:06 am

Quoting EA772LR (Reply 74):
Doubtful it would be QF. They've had the option to buy the 77W/L for a while now. I think you may be right however on QR and EK.

True !! But such issue cannot be strtched for ever. Dixon probably want not to order A3510 in parallel
with the B789 and possibly is not very confident either how long it will tak to get firm specs for it. But
more than that, he probably heard from Boeing that there will not be a B7810/11/10ER much earlier as
a A3510 !! So it could be (I am not betting on it) that he did an about face and ensured himself by ordering some B773ER and leaving the issue open for dicussion for the balance of his needs !

TKV
 
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Stitch
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:12 am

I do not believe a 777 will ever fly in QF Group colors, alas, so I do not believe the order is for them.
 
olle
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:56 am

>To my mind the better way forward is to focus efforts into redeveloping or replacing the 777 line over the next 7-10 years. >A "777-9" with 315 seats and 10,000nm range and a "777-10" with 380 seats and 8,500-9,000nm range is a more logical >way forward for Boeing's lineup. The sticking point is Boeing's unwillingness to put the -200 777 models out to pasture
>and GE's unwillingness to develop GE90 size engines in the 85-100,000lbt range using GEnX architecture. However the >reality is that replacement cycles are getting shorter and Boeing must respond effectively...

When Airbus did this with with A330 it was a stupid move by them. I do believe that the 777 will see the same fate.
 
Buckeye
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:59 am

Quoting Olle (Reply 77):
...reality is that replacement cycles are getting shorter...

IIRC the composite construction of the 787 is supposed to have a longer life than the aluminum that it is replacing. If this is correct the airlines buying the 787 expect to have a longer replacement cycle.
 
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keesje
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:27 am

Quoting TKV (Reply 75):
So it could be (I am not betting on it) that he did an about face and ensured himself by ordering some B773ER and leaving the issue open for dicussion for the balance of his needs !

"The plane that we want is not the 777-300ER," Dixon said.
http://www.kansas.com/101/story/140169.html


Referring to the Airbus A350 alternative - which is not due to fly until 2015 - Mr Dixon said: "We would like to use that between Australia and the United States, and also between hubs in Asia and the furthest points in Europe.

"All points considered, both of these companies (Boeing and Airbus) have outstanding track records."

Mr Dixon later said Qantas was not interested in Boeing's 777 jet because it was old technology, and nor would the airline buy the proposed remake of the now 40-year-old 747 jumbo, which is to be given new engines and rebadged as the 747-8.

"We're not going to buy old technology that has been . . . I won't say . . . tarted up. But there, I said it," Mr Dixon declared.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22038561-664,00.html

This was during the 787 roll-out event in Seattle a moth ago. Randy probably wanted to jump on the stage & kick him in the n..s but he couldn´t because Dixon also just ordered 787s and he didn´t want to disturb the party.  champagne 
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Stitch
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:21 am

It sounds like QF and SQ are interested in the same gameplan, and neither can afford to be caught with an "old technology" product like the A345/A346/77L/77W. All of them can fly 8000nm with a decent payload, but the 787 and A350 promise much better fuel efficiency. And while the A388/748I can also fly the mission and benefit from better fuel efficiency because of their size, flying them at 60-70% load factors isn't going to "cut the mustard".

Airbus seems to be fighting hard to keep the A350-1000 to at least 8000nm (I see they recently raised MTOW another 20,000lbs) because that matches the A380-800 so it fits well for capacity planning (fly the A388 during high season and the A3510 during low).

JL, NH, QF and BA will likely be natural Y3 customers, as would EK and SQ (even if both buy the A350). UA and NW could also likely find a home for it. I think that is enough carriers to justify going forward with the plane, using the 77W, 77L and 787-10 as a bridge until 2020.
 
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PM
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:15 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 79):
http://www.kansas.com/101/story/140169.html

"And development of the aircraft was famously over budget, costing Boeing somewhere between $10 billion and $12 billion, according to Hamilton."

"...famously..."? Hmmm, hadn't heard that one before.

"The 777 has garnered 973 orders since launch and more than 330 remain to be delivered. But Boeing likely needs a production run well beyond that to earn a decent return on its investment."

Also interesting.
 
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:58 am

Quoting PM (Reply 81):
"The 777 has garnered 973 orders since launch and more than 330 remain to be delivered. But Boeing likely needs a production run well beyond that to earn a decent return on its investment."

Lucky for Boeing they should see at least three hundred or so more ordered over the next decade, counting 777Fs.  thumbsup 
 
Wsp
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:23 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 81):
"The 777 has garnered 973 orders since launch and more than 330 remain to be delivered. But Boeing likely needs a production run well beyond that to earn a decent return on its investment."

I don't think the break even point or the "decent ROI"-point matter anymore, given they can't retroactively cancel the program. But it would be interesting to know what the projected break-even point was at program launch.
 
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:00 pm

Quoting Wsp (Reply 83):
I don't think the break even point or the "decent ROI"-point matter anymore, given they can't retroactively cancel the program.

Tell that to A380 critics!  faint   Big grin
 
grantcv
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:53 pm

The Y3 will be a replacement for the 773 and 748 models - sized from 350 to 500 passengers. The initial model will be timed to ride the 773 replacement cycle around 2020 and will grow into the replacement for the 748. As such, it will both be a great freighter and passenger airliner. Coming a dozen years after the 787, it will be a step change of technology ahead of the 787 - striving to meet the operational and environmental concerns which will exist a dozen years from now. And when it arrives, the 777, 748, A340, and A380 won't matter anymore. They will all be old technology planes - too innefficient to meet the environmental regulations which will be getting rather tough by then. But what of the A350? Coming a half dozen years earlier than the Y3, is it stretching far enough from an efficiency and environmental standpoint to have a life alongside the Y3? Or will it, like the A340 before it, be a half step out of pace with the industry's needs?
 
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:54 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 84):
Quoting Wsp (Reply 83):
I don't think the break even point or the "decent ROI"-point matter anymore, given they can't retroactively cancel the program.

Tell that to A380 critics!

Post of the day WM!  thumbsup  for  thumbsdown  In fact reading some you would think it was possible to make money with a cancellation.  Wow!
 
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:05 pm

Quoting Wsp (Reply 83):
But it would be interesting to know what the projected break-even point was at program launch.

I've heard numbers of around 250 tossed about. Adding in a 50% cost-overrun (which is probably excessive), that would be 375. Figure another 25% (also probably excessive) for the 77F/77L/77W program, and we're looking at 700, tops. So with 300 above that on the books so far, I think Boeing should make their 20% and then some.  Smile
 
TKV
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:39 pm

In the article under URL indicated below, which encloses several different issues
http://leeham.net/filelib/ScottsColumn073107.pdf
Page 5, inside the table originating in the Seattle Times, it is said that Boeing has already decided that that it will produce a 787-10 to supersede the 777-200ER and go up against the A350-1000. and that though some customers want it so, Boeing is reluctant to produce a further Dreamliner stretch- sometimes called the 787-10X - for a market segment covered by the A350-1000 and the 777-300ER !!

Are these statements confirmed ?? IMO, should they have DECIDED to build the B787-10, but even reluctantly, not discarded the B787-10X (or 11!), should the latter happen, they would have TWO stretched version, the 10 and 10X !! Does this seem real ??

TKV
 
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:43 pm

Quoting ER757 (Reply 55):
Does Airbus have the timing right or will Boeing slip in from behind and hit the peak of the curve? Very interesting times indeed.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 61):
Lets not forget the present situation: Airbus is in the driver seat & Boeing has to do something, ref. Richard' s article.

One thing people are not taking into consideration is the fact that the chances are very good that we will hit a recession between now and sometime in 2012 (we are already in the 2nd longest economic recovery in history, notwithstanding today's huge market decline). That being the case, which manufacturer is in a better position to be in the driver's seat? The one that is currently profitable and has garnered 700+ orders for its new wodebody model, and will still have a healthy backlog even if some airlines defer or cancel orders in the event of economic stress? Or the one that is currently losing money, and will continue to lose money for the foreseeable future; sitting on a backlog of only ~200 orders of its similar airplane, which wouldn't leave too many left if airlines cancel or defer because of economic stress; and still has to spend a fortune of money it doesn't have in order to develop that airplane?

I'm never one to expect success based on the other person's or company's woes; however, if we do hit a recession, and chances are good that we will, Boeing is in a much better position to not only weather the downturn, but to also continue with product development. Which means in an economic downturn Airbus will be mired in pushing out the A350, and not much else, while Boeing could commence development of its 777 replacement.

I realize Boeing could be hit hard by an economic downturn as well, but most of their R&D spend has occurred on the 787 and they have a 700+ order backlog. Even if they lost 200 orders as a result of deferments or cancellations, they would still have a healthy backlog of 500+. Airbus is just now starting to see their R&D curve for the A350 go up (on top of the R&D that they're already in the hole for on the A380) and they're sitting on only ~200 orders for the A350. Their position is a much more precarious one.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:07 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 72):
...interesting observation WBG....you are one of the very few people on A.net who advocate such a direction with the B777's (the redeveloping part of the comments at least)......also, I've always thought however the "ULR" will come either via the B788 or the B789 variants and not the possible B787-10

I want to be clear and say that IMO I don't think Boeing should do the 787-10 at all anymore. It really does not make sense at this point and is not a package that can be grown to fit future needs of operators. What i am saying is that Boeing should start to gather the resources to plan the replacement for the 777 series and have it in the Air by 2015-2017. There is a burgeoning need for 300-400 seat long and ultra long haul aircraft that will have to be filled and if Boeing leaves it to the double headed team of 777-300ER/-200LR and 787-10 they will lose against the A350-900/R/-1000 period. Why would an operator buy three airplanes from one Manufacturer when the other has two airplane that do the jobs at lower operational cost. This does not mean that I am a believer in the A350, it's still a "myth" as far as I'm concerned...

It may sound radical to most but I say kill the 787-10 and focus on the future highly capable and efficient airliner family. The 787-10 development would be wasted by the simple fact that the 777 is going to be replaced anyway. Secondly not to sound superstitious but Boeing last double stretch twin isle airplane did not fare so well in the market even though Boeing will tell you that it did what they wanted it to do, but all in all the 767-400 was a belly flop... So what I'm saying is that the new generation replacement for the 777, starting with the 777-200ER/LR replacement, may be a little less fuel efficient than a "787-10" but tons more capable and would be the growth platform for the 777-300ER replacement to EIS around 2020.

I would hope people don't get so hung up on this "Y3" concept either. What Boeing has stated and others have postulated may fold up under of the pressures of market reality. Replacement cycles are getting shorter, and pressure on maximum operating efficiency is getting higher. This does not mean that airlines don't want to keep airplanes longer but the technology is advancing ever faster and the needs of operators is becoming more and more diverse. A patchwork offering of old and new generation aircraft may not be the answer, at least on the passenger side. IMO Boeing should keep the three twin isle aircraft families first the 787 (787-8/9), do the 777-200/300ER/LR replacement, and the 747 replacement. Three member aircraft families, in terms of fuselage length really don't work for large aircraft. The most optimized variant is usually either the middle or the largest, and there are too many ugly compromises to make in order to make things work well. Trying to cover too large a capacity range with one cross section is not the way to go.

I believe Airbus is taking a "stretch too far" approach with the A350 or dooming the A350-800 to permanent inferiority before it is even built. The three aircraft family with one common wing makes for well performing middle and top model but the bottom is over winged, over weight, and needs a highly derated engine or new, smaller engine entirely. Consequently against the better optimized 787-9 it fall short in terms of operating efficiency, not to mention being four years behind it in EIS...



-widebodyphotog
If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
TKV
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 89):
Quoting Keesje (Reply 61):
Lets not forget the present situation: Airbus is in the driver seat & Boeing has to do something, ref. Richard' s article.

One thing people are not taking into consideration is the fact that the chances are very good that we will hit a recession between now and sometime in 2012 (we are already in the 2nd longest economic recovery in history, notwithstanding today's huge market decline). That being the case, which manufacturer is in a better position to be in the driver's seat? The one that is currently profitable and has garnered 700+ orders for its new widebody model, and will still have a healthy backlog even if some airlines defer or cancel orders in the event of economic stress? Or the one that is currently losing money, and will continue to lose money for the foreseeable future; sitting on a backlog of only ~200 orders of its similar airplane, which wouldn't leave too many left if airlines cancel or defer because of economic stress; and still has to spend a fortune of money it doesn't have in order to develop that airplane?

I assume, Keesje, that you refer only to the market niche A3510-B7810, where Boeing has not decided if it merits to develop the B7810X (or 11!). If it decides to do so, probably it would be deliverable at the same time or before the A3510!

As for the market assessment of RedFlyer, I agree totally. An additional comment to your phrase

Quote:
even if some airlines defer or cancel orders in the event of economic stress?

something which would most certainly happen given the past experience.
But here, the situation would be extreme regarding the Near East Airlines engaged in a superlative expansion basing on a IMO erroneous assessment of their hub advantages (against direct/non stop),
the perception that both the worldwide (incl. the oil) boom will continue (so expecting their profit to come from extreme luxurious and expensive F and B seats) and last but not least, assuming that the world's
large airlines will let them grab so a huge portion of the market without taking countermeasures (which would be more so in case of a recession!).
And Airbus, contrary to Boeing, is very dependant of this captioned market.

TKV
 
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Stitch
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:47 am

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 90):
IMO Boeing should keep the three twin isle aircraft families first the 787 (787-8/9), do the 777-200/300ER/LR replacement, and the 747 replacement.

Does Boeing really need a 747 replacement?

I like the 787-10 in that it could make a decent 300-seat plane, allowing "Y3-100" to be 350 seats and "Y3-200" to be 400 seats, which offers more capacity then the A350-900 and A350-1000 as well as allowing a "Y3-100LR" to use the higher MTOW and engines to push the range envelope out to the magical LHR-SYD 365-day a year goal. And just let the chips fall where they may on the 747-8I. If it never sells, so be it. Run with the freighter.

Otherwise, Boeing needs to build a brand new 300 seater and 350 seater to fight the A350-900 and A350-1000 and then build a new 400 and 450 seater to replace the 747 and fight the A380. And that's gotta be deep into eleven figures and a decade or more in development costs/time.
 
TP313
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:44 am

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 90):
I believe Airbus is taking a "stretch too far" approach with the A350 or dooming the A350-800 to permanent inferiority before it is even built.

From the numbers we already have (789 carries 20 more pax than the 358 for the same range)
it is pretty clear it is the latter. And it is the best course of action in the current (not the best) circumstances.
Since the launching of the Dreamliner programme we have been witnessing a strategy war between
A and B and that is pretty much what is missing from the discussion by a.net members.
By the early 2000's A dominated the low end of the mid-size widebody market with the 330 and
B dominated the upper end of that market with the triple 7.
When Boeing launched the 787 they tried take over the whole market, but without canibalizing
any of the 777 variants, which makes it pretty clear for me that a 787-10 variant was never
considered in the initial plan. Boeing didn't change this strategy while it's prospective rival was
a re-engined 330.
Then came the Al-Li 5.64 m cross-section 350. This proposal was also a strategic move -
- the 359 targgeted the 772ER and the technology could be introduced in A340 derivatives.
Boeing adjusted its own strategy by modifying the 789 wing and proposing a 787-10 that~
would turn the tables on the 359. After this fine tunning arlines looked at the current and future
product lineups from both companies and told Airbus to get back to the drawing board.
After this Airbus knew the 340 was dead and that a new strategy would have to include the
replacement of this family. More than that, they knew that optimizing the new family for targgeting
the 77W (with a 20% efficiency gain) would force Boeing to rethink it's long term product replacement
strategy in terms of Y1 vs. Y3 launch priority. That's what the XWB is all about. The current
777 replacement dilemma is revealing about the impact of Airbus new strategy.

[Edited 2007-08-09 19:47:17]
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 92):
Does Boeing really need a 747 replacement?

Not any time soon but, eventually, yes.

Although the trend is to average smaller aircraft, the absolute number of VLA's keeps growing. Especially as fuel costs continue to rise (which they have to over the long term), that will drive operators towards the lowest CASM and that means big airplanes. Cargo is also growing steadily (faster than passengers) and VLA's make good freighters, all other things being equal.

It may always look like a 747 (the aerodynamics of the 747 are *very* good) but I think they'll keep generating a new plane at that size every 10-20 years.

Tom.
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 92):
Does Boeing really need a 747 replacement?

Yes they do...

First because the reality is that the 747 has gone as far as it can go. While it's a great aircraft in th latest iteration, the 747-8, its primary architecture does not have the future built in. It's main advantages of relative lightness, good aerodynamics, and newly developed engines will disappear with the advent of smaller more efficient airplanes being introduced over the next 10 years. Secondly because the A380 is very vulnerable. Think about it, the 747-8 matches or betters the A380's operating efficiency with modest reworking of a 40 year old design. A clean sheet airplane with 450-550 passenger range would be a devistating blow to the future viability of the airplane before it can get a foothold in the market. With tecnology that is ready to go today Boeing could build a 500 seat airplane that betters the A380 in all measures by 10-15% or more! It's just a matter of when Boeing can do it.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 92):
I like the 787-10 in that it could make a decent 300-seat plane, allowing "Y3-100" to be 350 seats and "Y3-200" to be 400 seats, which offers more capacity then the A350-900 and A350-1000 as well as allowing a "Y3-100LR" to use the higher MTOW and engines to push the range envelope out to the magical LHR-SYD 365-day a year goal. And just let the chips fall where they may on the 747-8I. If it never sells, so be it. Run with the freighter.

While I too "like" the 787-10 I can put much stock in it because it will be basically a one-trick pony. It can never have ULR capabilities and it would be an odd-ball aircraft in Boeing's lineup. The problems brought to light by the shortcomings of the 787-10 can be solved by a replacement of the 777 series starting with a 305-315 variant with growth capabilities built in.

Boeing basically needs to compete head-to-head with the larger A350 models and the current 777 just won't cut it. Boeing has two options as I see it. Redevelop the 777 within the current airplane architecture using technology adaptations from the 787, or a clean sheet of paper design. The former has very interesting potential and holds the best promise of wide ranging appeal and lowest, least costly development cycle. Many creative options avial themselves if that route is taken. The latter may be expensive, but gives Boeing the opportunity to make a knock-out airplane. It's a tough choice for Boeing because while the freighter and 777-300ER are selling very well the -200 passenger planes are having their lunch eaten by the A350-900 at the moment. The 777's and the A350's are really too far apart in terms of alleged efficiency and features for a modest update of the 777 to have big impact. Boeing has to target parity on some level with the A350 on some level or lose out on the sales bonanza.

This is not me being a cheerleader for the A350 because at the moment I honestly don't believe they can do it. What they've shown the airlines so far is a lot of big promises backed up by nothing more than colorful presentations and agressive talk. When they actually have some development hardware to give proof to the technology we can look at it and maybe I'll change my tune. However Boeing does not have that luxury and it's a tricky spot to be in. What in the arsenal do you use to fight the threat that is still 7 years hence? Don't know but it will be interesting to see wha they come up with.



-widebodyphotog
If you know what's really going on then you'll know what to do
 
TP313
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting TKV (Reply 91):
If it decides to do so, probably it would be deliverable at the same time or before the A3510!

Modified or new wing + modified landing gear + 90,000+ lb new engines... before 2015, yeah right...
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 90):
It may sound radical to most but I say kill the 787-10 and focus on the future highly capable and efficient airliner family. The 787-10 development would be wasted by the simple fact that the 777 is going to be replaced anyway. Secondly not to sound superstitious but Boeing last double stretch twin isle airplane did not fare so well in the market even though Boeing will tell you that it did what they wanted it to do, but all in all the 767-400 was a belly flop... So what I'm saying is that the new generation replacement for the 777, starting with the 777-200ER/LR replacement, may be a little less fuel efficient than a "787-10" but tons more capable and would be the growth platform for the 777-300ER replacement to EIS around 2020.

....if the B787-10 costs on R&D/manufacturing are low enough and if "x" amount of carriers are committed to a decent amount frames, then I don't see why Boeing couldn't offer the B787-10...

The A359 might do to the B787-10 what the B789 might do to the A358 (IMHO) in terms of efficiency and optimisation.

However, I think this time around, Boeing will be taking a very cautious approach as to whether or not the B787-10 will be able to provide a decent ROI with decent profit margins.

The B787 can't be all things to all carriers...

..I also do agree that the B777 series will be in trouble in a few years....the A350 almost by default will be a superiour aircraft over the B777's...decades of technological advances will almost guarantee that....

...the B764 "double stretch"...well..some say it kept the DL's and CO's of the world in "Boeing's camp"...that's of course debatable...

Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 90):
I believe Airbus is taking a "stretch too far" approach with the A350 or dooming the A350-800 to permanent inferiority before it is even built. The three aircraft family with one common wing makes for well performing middle and top model but the bottom is over winged, over weight, and needs a highly derated engine or new, smaller engine entirely. Consequently against the better optimized 787-9 it fall short in terms of operating efficiency, not to mention being four years behind it in EIS...

 checkmark ..hence my comments above regarding the B789 versus A358 and The A359 versus the B787-10...

Quoting Stitch (Reply 92):
Quoting Widebodyphotog (Reply 90):
IMO Boeing should keep the three twin isle aircraft families first the 787 (787-8/9), do the 777-200/300ER/LR replacement, and the 747 replacement.

Does Boeing really need a 747 replacement?



Quoting Stitch (Reply 92):

Otherwise, Boeing needs to build a brand new 300 seater and 350 seater to fight the A350-900 and A350-1000 and then build a new 400 and 450 seater to replace the 747 and fight the A380. And that's gotta be deep into eleven figures and a decade or more in development costs/time.

 checkmark ..I think that would be quite a big expense, especially given they need to also work on the B737 replacement..

Quoting TP313 (Reply 93):
When Boeing launched the 787 they tried take over the whole market

..the goal was to replace the B767, A330 and to a certain extent the A340 market....which it is effectively doing...

Quoting TP313 (Reply 93):
The current
777 replacement dilemma is revealing about the impact of Airbus new strategy.

.....as I mentioned above, the larger variants of the A350 will almost by default be better than most of the B777's...
"Up the Irons!"
 
TKV
Posts: 368
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RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:12 am

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 94):
Although the trend is to average smaller aircraft, the absolute number of VLA's keeps growing. Especially as fuel costs continue to rise (which they have to over the long term), that will drive operators towards the lowest CASM and that means big airplanes. Cargo is also growing steadily (faster than passengers) and VLA's make good freighters, all other things being equal.

I would say that the statement "that will drive operators towards the lowest CASM and that means big airplanes" is correct if you speak of planes of the same cathegory, as example A350/B787. CASM per seat of a B789 is lower as for B788, both with largely composite body..

But I do not know if it is possible to achieve this with VLA. Both A380 and B748 are rather conventional
planes, the improvement of CASM related to older models are mainly due to engines and aerodynamics.

As it is, you cannot say that a A3510 will have a better CASM as a A380, possibly quite the contrary

It would be interesting to hear the opinion regarding the future relative development of VLA and LA.

TKV
 
TP313
Posts: 286
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

RE: Aboulafia: A350 Competitive Threat To Boeing

Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 97):
Quoting TP313 (Reply 93):
When Boeing launched the 787 they tried take over the whole market

..the goal was to replace the B767, A330 and to a certain extent the A340 market....which it is effectively doing...

You misunderstood me, what I meant was that when Boeing launched the 787
their aim was to take over the whole market with the 787 + 777 combo

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