contrails
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Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:53 am

I thought about calling this "Stupid Pax", but I think some of these pax are past stupid.

I took a short trip to DFW this past weekend. On the way out people got up to go to the lav not only while the seatbelt sign was on, but in turbulence. Another time pax were going to/from the lav while the FA's were in the aisle serving beverages.

On the return trip a pax went to the lav just before pushback, with the seatbelt sign on, which delayed pushback by a minute or so. Then we had a smooth flight with the seatbelt sign off for over 2 hours. There was plenty of time to go to the lav, but guess what? A couple of pax waited until just after the seatbelt sign went on for our descent to go to the lav.

I don't wish for people to get hurt, but I was secretly hoping we'd hit an air pocket just rough enough to scare the crap out of these idiots who don't think the seatbelt sign means anything. It's bad enough to see it, but when someone asks me to get up while we're bouncing around I personally resent it. I don't know what other frequent flyers do, but my policy is to get up to let someone out if and only if the situation doesn't pose any danger to me. If the turbulence is what I consider dangerous I won't get up.

I've been thinking about the airlines putting an electronic lock on lav doors that won't open - except with a key, which FA's would have - when the seatbelt sign is on. I doubt anyone would install them, however, because I don't think they have the guts.

Does anyone else think the way I do about these idiots? Any comments on my lock idea?
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boeing743
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:03 am

Yeah, I has been notice same on all of my flights that passengers would go to lav before push back start or start descent. I think many people think oh airplanes has bathroom so they can go there if they want to and not care about seatbelt sign. I also noticed that some of F/As would tell passengers to go back to seat and some will cooperative and some will complained about it.

Everytime when I board I always stay in seat and I would go to bathroom at airport before airplane start boaring. I think that many people should start cooperative with seatbelt sign.
 
bond007
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:15 am

No, no.... biggest pet peeve ... all those pax that get up and start opening the bins when we stop 100 yds from the gate!

.... 2 seconds after the announcement "Please remain in your seat until the plane has stopped at the gate and the Captain has turned off the seat belt sign"


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:16 am

Quoting Contrails (Thread starter):
Another time pax were going to/from the lav while the FA's were in the aisle serving beverages.

That's not illegal, they just might get stuck if they are sitting near the front and the carts are in the way when they try to go back.

I think I've been to the bathroom once when the seatbelt sign was on. It was when I was 5 flying NW and I had to go. It was right as we were starting decent, so my parents told me to go quickly.
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FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:18 am

Quoting Contrails (Thread starter):
Another time pax were going to/from the lav while the FA's were in the aisle serving beverages.

I agree with your main point, but I fail to see what's wrong with this one, at least if the seatbelt sign is off.

Quoting Contrails (Thread starter):
There was plenty of time to go to the lav, but guess what? A couple of pax waited until just after the seatbelt sign went on for our descent to go to the lav.

Yea, I know what you mean. But I think some passengers treat the turning of the seatbelt sign on as a "Last Call", knowing that by the time you finish your descent, land, taxi in, wait for a gate, and wait to get off the plane, your next opportunity to use a restroom could be 30 minutes or more away, especially when flying into a major airport. Not saying it's right, just what I think happens.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
bond007
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:24 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 4):
But I think some passengers treat the turning of the seatbelt sign on as a "Last Call", knowing that by the time you finish your descent, land, taxi in, wait for a gate, and wait to get off the plane, your next opportunity to use a restroom could be 30 minutes or more away, especially when flying into a major airport. Not saying it's right, just what I think happens.

The more sensible/bored/weak-bladdered pilots make an announcement saying "we are 10 minutes from our initial descent, so if you need to .... do it now".


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
flyCMH
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:33 am

This reminds me of a clever Shuttle America cockpit crew I had once.

Upon arrival into ORD, we stopped a few feet short of the gate. Of course, the clicking of seatbelts could be heard throughout the cabin, even though we were not parked at the gate. One of the pilots then promplty comes on the P/A and says:

"Ladies and gentlemen, our seatbelt indicator in the cockpit shows many people have unbuckled their seatbelts. We are not yet at the gate and we do need you to stay in your seats with your seatbelts securely fastened."

Seatbelts began re-clicking back to being fastened.  biggrin 
 
kalvado
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:36 am

Seat belt sign, along with idea of seatbelt being fastened are seriously abused by airlines.
My favorite is an announcement on AA redeye: make sure your fastened seatbelt is visible to FA. If you're using blanket - seatbelt should go over the blanket; if FA cannot see it, they will wake you up..
Another extreme is seat belt sign being always on...
 
Arcrftlvr
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:39 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 2):
all those pax that get up and start opening the bins when we stop 100 yds from the gate!

This and the people that rush to the front of the plane as soon as the A/C is parked at the gate. I've been on any number of flights where as soon as the seat belt sign is released, you hear...'excuse me...excuse me...excuse me' as these imbeciles push their way to the front of the plane. I purposely act like I don't hear them and just stand in their way in the aisle. The best is when the tap you on the back and you don't even acknowledge their existence. The only time I don't stand in their way is if we were delayed and the F/As ask everyone to remain seated while passengers attempting to make their connections get off first.

I don't mind pax that get up when the seat belt sign is illuminated during turbulence, but I can't stand when they get up any time after push back before we are airborne. Or, once the cabin is secured for landing. They should be kicked off mid-air. It would probably to their benefit.
 
Arcrftlvr
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:42 am

Quoting FlyCMH (Reply 6):
"Ladies and gentlemen, our seatbelt indicator in the cockpit shows many people have unbuckled their seatbelts. We are not yet at the gate and we do need you to stay in your seats with your seatbelts securely fastened."

That old gag...WN F/As use that often too..
 
Mir
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:49 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 5):
Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 4):
But I think some passengers treat the turning of the seatbelt sign on as a "Last Call", knowing that by the time you finish your descent, land, taxi in, wait for a gate, and wait to get off the plane, your next opportunity to use a restroom could be 30 minutes or more away, especially when flying into a major airport. Not saying it's right, just what I think happens.

The more sensible/bored/weak-bladdered pilots make an announcement saying "we are 10 minutes from our initial descent, so if you need to .... do it now".

 checkmark  If the pilots don't make that announcement, you can hardly blame the pax for going right away after the seatbelt sign is on. Are they supposed to sense through ESP that the plane is about to start descent? At least they don't wait until the plane is ready to land.

-Mir
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RJdxer
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:50 am

Quoting Kalvado (Reply 7):
Seat belt sign, along with idea of seatbelt being fastened are seriously abused by airlines.

You wouldn't feel that way if you had ever hit unannounced moderate to severe turbulence or had ever had a hard stop on the taxi way to avoid an animal.

Quoting Kalvado (Reply 7):
My favorite is an announcement on AA redeye: make sure your fastened seatbelt is visible to FA. If you're using blanket - seatbelt should go over the blanket; if FA cannot see it, they will wake you up..

I don't understand the problem with buckling the seatbelt over the blanket. Let me ask you this, If I come to your place of business, who gets to make the safety rules?


Some people never think the rules should apply to them. Those are the kind of people that personal injury attorneys make their money off of.
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hamad
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:52 am

Quoting Kalvado (Reply 7):
Seat belt sign, along with idea of seatbelt being fastened are seriously abused by airlines.

i agree to a certain extent. i was on a flight last may, but the seat belt sign was illuminated for two hours, not even one bump! made me think "did they forget it?" on other times i get on middleastern or european carriers, as soon as the plane clears 10,000 feet, the sign is off..
PHX - i miss spotting
 
bond007
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:54 am

Quoting Kalvado (Reply 7):
Seat belt sign, along with idea of seatbelt being fastened are seriously abused by airlines.
My favorite is an announcement on AA redeye: make sure your fastened seatbelt is visible to FA. If you're using blanket - seatbelt should go over the blanket; if FA cannot see it, they will wake you up..
Another extreme is seat belt sign being always on...

Hardly abuse or extremes. The bottom line is that if you REALLY need to get out of your seat, you're either going to be allowed to do it, or you'll do it anyway. Otherwise, sit down and belt up.

Take a look at the FAA incident reports and you'll realize how many flight attendants get injured very regularly (many broken bones), because they happened to be unbuckled, and how few pax get injured, because they were buckled up.

The sad thing is that many pax who have this attitude, will not hesitate to try and sue the airline if they got injured coz the seat belt sign was off and they were unbuckled.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
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BreninTW
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:00 am

A couple of weeks ago, I was flying HKG - TPE on CX. We were delayed by more than 90 min due to weather in HKG, and finally were given clearance to push back and take-off. We pushed back, the safety demo was done, and the cabin crew nicely buckled in ... we turned onto the runway and stopped ... and some old granny gets up to go to the toilet. The cabin crew didn't notice it, but I did, and quietly leaned forward and told the F/A sitting in front of me that someone had stood up. I've never in my life seen a F/A move like she did! She lept out of her seat and instructed granny to get back in her seat, seated her, and returned -- all in about a minute!

I think granny would have been lynched if we'd had to abort take-off and face a further delay -- the passengers were already pretty grumpy, and delayed Taiwanese are not fun to be around!
 
Evan767
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:02 am

Quoting HAMAD (Reply 12):
was on a flight last may, but the seat belt sign was illuminated for two hours, not even one bump! made me think "did they forget it?"

That is equally a pet peeve of mine. I absolutely hate it when the pilot leaves the seatbelt sign on for the majority of a 4 hours flight, when there is no turbulence whatsoever! Countries outside of the US are much more relaxed on this. Even when we hit a few teeny weeny itsy bitsy vibrations....DING! "Flight attendants take your seats". Gosh some pilots are real wussies huh?
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
bond007
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:07 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 15):
when there is no turbulence whatsoever!

Well, most injuries occur due to unexpected turbulence. When it's expected, and the captain informs the F/As to stop service and buckle up ... surprize .. no injuries.

Like I said earlier. If the seat belt sign is on for 4hrs, and you need to get take a leak ... you're gonna get up and use the lav, or you're going to ask a F/A if it's OK .... chances are you're going to get to take your leak ... in the lav.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
baron95
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:11 am

Quoting Contrails (Thread starter):
On the way out people got up to go to the lav not only while the seatbelt sign was on, but in turbulence. Another time pax were going to/from the lav while the FA's were in the aisle serving beverages.



Quoting Contrails (Thread starter):
Does anyone else think the way I do about these idiots? Any comments on my lock idea?

I think the idiots are the people believe they need to behave like school children and completely loose their ability to think critically about ailine dumb procedures, and on top of that like to monitor what everyone else does.

Number of people who have been killed or seriously injured for going going to the restroom or retrieving luggage during pushback or tow in to the gate: ZERO

Number of people who have been killed or seriously injured for going to the restroom while food was being served by the FAs: ZERO

Number of people who have been killed or seriously injured for going to the restroom with the seatbelt sign on without turbulance: ZERO

Number of people who have been killed or seriously injured for going to the restroom with the seatbelt sign on AND while experiencing significant turbulance: ZERO (likely as people judge the turbulance that is present and prepare for it)

Number of people (passangers and FAs) who have been killed or seriously injured while standing/moving around the cabin with the seatbelt sign OFF AND NO TURBULANCE AT THE TIME THEY GOT OFF: SEVERAL (quite a few documented ones include BA when pilots got an TCAS RA, planes encountering sudden CAT which is usually what gets people injured.

Number of kids killed or seriously injured for riding in school buses whi (in many states) don't have seatbelts: dozens if not hundreds.

Number of people killed or seriously injured for riding in buses and other public transportation (trains, vans etc) that don't even have seat belts: many thousands.

So tell me. WHO IS THE IDIOT????

The person who is scared to death to get up just because a meaningless seatbelt sign is on or that person who knows for a fact that the chances of something hapening on the short walt to the restroom are ZERO or incredibly close to ZERO and just makes a decicion to do what he needs?

[Edited 2007-08-08 03:55:12]
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TrvlnMan
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:17 am

How about when pax don't think they need to turn their cell phones off - I love the glares I get when I tell them that they need to turn it off. Rules are rules!
 
bond007
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:23 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 17):
Number of people who have been killed or seriously injured for going to the restroom with the seatbelt sign on without turbulance: ZERO

Number of people who have been killed or seriously injured for going to the restroom with the seatbelt on AND while experiencing significant turbulance: ZERO (likely as people judge the turbulance that is present and prepare for it)

Number of people (passangers and FAs) who have been killed or seriously injured while standing/moving around the cabin with the seatbelt sign OFF AND NO TURBULANCE AT THE TIME THEY GOT OFF: SEVERAL (quite a few documented ones include BA when pilots got an TCAS RA, planes encountering sudden CAT which is usually what gets people injured.

Please quote your source?

These are the most ridiculous and immature statements I've seen for a while.

You are absolutely correct! No pax ever got injured when there was NO turbulence ... Duh!!

...I was going to explain but it's not worth it...

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:27 am

People will always ignore the seat belt sign. I just make the appropriate announcement and inform (key word there) what that means. End of story. It is far from a "pet peeve" (I have none (well the ones I do have are for crew, not for customers)).

As for the "sign never going off"...if you have to go to to the loo, by all means go. When nature calls, answer. It is damned if you do and damned if you don't with that sign. I have read it here and experience it everyday on the job. The sign can stay on or it goes on and off (and with that are the barrage of mandatory announcements).

Sure there are semi-Nazi crew that make people's lives hell (those are the ones that make it bad for everyone). I, like most of us, are not on that category. Like I said before, if you gotta go, go (just be careful).
You can't cure stupid
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:52 am

Why would someone be desperate to take the seatbelt off inflight? They are not uncomfortable. When you are driving along the highway cruising, do you undo your belt?

You should have the belt on in both cases, you never know when you might encounter CAT in the plane, or have an accident in the car.
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flyf15
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:01 am

Following that seatbelt sign isn't a suggestion. Its an FAR and therefore a federal offense to disobey it. If you take off your seatbelt against crewmember instructions, you're breaking a law. Should the airline choose to pursue it, you could have charges pressed against you and/or be sued if something were to occur. This is especially of importance when on the ground taxiing to the gate and everyone starts to take off their belts and stand up before we're at the gate. You're committing a crime when you're doing this.

About pilots not turning the sign off. We either don't turn it off because we feel it should be on due to expected turbulence/weather, because it has been requested by the flight attendants that we keep it on for whatever reason, or we've forgotten. If you need to take your belt off and it is not obvious why the sign is on, ring your FA call button and ask them. They'll call us and if we deem it appropriate, we'll it turn the sign off... simple as that.
 
baron95
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:03 am

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 21):
You should have the belt on in both cases, you never know when you might encounter CAT in the plane, or have an accident in the car.

Exactly right. Going to the restroom with the seatbelt sign on or off pose about the same amount of risk. You can be at cruise altitude, smooth air, seatbelt sign off and BOOM - CAT upset.

Bottom line is: if you are inside a moving vehicle that has a good restraint system use it at all times, unless you have a very good reason not to: e.g. you really need to go to the restroom, you need to serve food, you need to retrieve your luggage. If you need to do any of those things, do it as fast as possible and always anticipate that conditions can change at any minute (e.g. CAT on a plane or your bus hitting a truck).

Just don't be like the OP or Bond007 that assume that if the seatbelt sign is OFF it is safe and if the seatbelt sign is ON it is dangerous. He clearly is more interested in minding other people's business rather than thinking critically.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
bond007
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:13 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 23):
Just don't be like the OP or Bond007 that assume that if the seatbelt sign is OFF it is safe and if the seatbelt sign is ON it is dangerous. He clearly is more interested in minding other people's business rather than thinking critically.

Going to the restroom with the seatbelt sign on or off pose about the same amount of risk.


Like when I asked for the source of your data, I'll ask for where I said this ... pointless as it is.

The same amount of risk??? Do you really think the pilot is kidding when he's about to enter a cloud layer, brush the top of a towering cumulus, or had PIREPS of moderate/severe turbulence? Sure, CAT can occur anytime, but most turbulence is actually either forecast or due to cloud layers.

My critical thinking is that those people that get hurt are those that are unbuckled... and if the seat belt is on, unless I'm peeing my pants, I'm staying down. Regardless of whether the sign is on, the airline's policy is to be buckled up anyway.

I'm just not into making rather stupid comments about when people get injured. They get injured either when expected turbulence happens and they're unbuckled, or when unexpected turbulence happens and they are unbuckled. The former can almost always be avoided, and the latter in most cases ... and it's not by making personal uneducated judgements about when CAT will occur, or when existing turbulence will get worse. If anyone could forecast that, they would be a billionaire.

Jimbo

[Edited 2007-08-08 04:20:26]
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
kalvado
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:25 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 24):
and if the seat belt is on, unless I'm peeing my pants, I'm staying down.

with some operators you'd better get a pack of spare pants with you:
This document is from canada, but i've seen exactly same thing flying us-based airline
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/commerce/circulars/AC0149.htm

Quote:

Another approach taken by some operators in an attempt to keep passengers in their seats is through the use of the seat belt sign at all times during the flight.
Transport Canada views this approach as having a negative effect on passenger safety. This practice causes passengers to ignore the seat belt sign when it is illuminated for a valid reason.

Looks like there is a real problem, heh?
 
hamad
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:28 am

Quoting TrvlnMan (Reply 18):

now, cell phones and seat belts are not the same thing, are they  Wink? its like comparing applease and oranges
PHX - i miss spotting
 
drgmobile
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:29 am

I'm glad somebody brought this up. I generally obey the seatbelt sign because it seems obnoxious not to. HOWEVER, if flight crews truly want respect, passengers should get respect in return. Seatbelt signs are supposed to be safety related. Yet it seems very clear to me that U.S. carriers use the seat belt as a way of controlling traffic for flight attendants to be able to get the carts in place without being bothered. It's hard to respect them if they are being used that way.

My evidence is only personal experience comparing U.S. flights with Canadian flights. But if my contention is correct, the whole thing brings on a kind of cry wolf mentality when it comes to the seatbelt sign. We're not stupid -- of course we notice when the sign is on for an extended period of time in calm air.

And a big HERE HERE! to the person who pointed out how ridiculous the inconsistency is with seatbelts on planes and other forms of transportation. I mean, apparently it is perfectly correct for me to be standing up, held in place only by a rubber strap while my city bus goes careening around corners at 60 km an hour but GOD FORBID somebody stand up while an airplane is at a standstill short of the gate or taxing along at 5 km an hour on an unnaturally smooth tarmac surface.

Yes. I understand the reasons for the seatbelt sign while taxiing. Unexpected stops, etc... But contrast the risk and it is still ridiculous. We have an expectation of safety with aircraft that is out of sync with our norms. Not necessarily a bad thing to have such a high expectation but don't act all indignant when somebody points out the inconsistency.
 
bond007
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:32 am

Quoting Kalvado (Reply 25):
with some operators you'd better get a pack of spare pants with you:
This document is from canada, but i've seen exactly same thing flying us-based airline



Quoting Kalvado (Reply 25):
Looks like there is a real problem, heh?

No problem with any of that! Did you think I would?

I never said I agree with the seatbelt sign being always on, and I agree, the longer it's on, in no turbulence, the more it might be ignored [but that still doesn't mean I have any time for those that do ignore it and break FAA regs]

Yes, of course, keeping the seatbelt on at all times makes perfect sense, regardless of what the sign says.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
rwsea
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:40 am

Quoting Contrails (Thread starter):
I don't wish for people to get hurt, but I was secretly hoping we'd hit an air pocket just rough enough to scare the crap out of these idiots who don't think the seatbelt sign means anything. It's bad enough to see it, but when someone asks me to get up while we're bouncing around I personally resent it. I don't know what other frequent flyers do, but my policy is to get up to let someone out if and only if the situation doesn't pose any danger to me. If the turbulence is what I consider dangerous I won't get up.

The problem is that the seat belt sign is a joke most of the time. When it's on for 1/2 a flight, that means it doesn't need to be taken seriously. American carriers are worse than most at leaving it on for long periods of time even if the flight is smooth.

Why does my 6 hour flight from JFK-SEA have it on for at least 2 hours, whereas my AMS-BRU flight lasting 20 minutes has it off unless the plane is below 10,000 ft?

Maybe people will respect "rules" when they're reasonable, eh?
 
baron95
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:43 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 24):
Do you really think the pilot is kidding

Dude. Wake Up. The absolutely vast majority of the time the seatbelt sign is ON has absolutely nothing to do with turbulence. It is always ON when the aircraft is moving on the ground. It is always on during the climb. It is always on during descent and approach. Even in perfctly still airmasses. It is usually ON for a few minutes after reaching cruising altitudes.

It is only occasionally that the seatbelt is turned ON because of turbulance and it is usually turned on AFTER turbulance begins. Despite what the OP (Contrails) claims, passengers don't get up from their seats when the turbulance is significant (unless they are trully desperate which is rare). Passengers get up with the seat belt ON when there is no turbulance or light chop and they see the FAs moving around the cabin. They are NOT that stupid. They see the FAs moving around and they know it is reasonably safe to make a quick trip to the restroom.

Quoting Kalvado (Reply 25):
Another approach taken by some operators in an attempt to keep passengers in their seats is through the use of the seat belt sign at all times during the flight.

Exactly right. Thanks for pointing that out. Many times the seatbelt ON sign is used to make the FAs life easier. I respect that pilots that come on the PA and say "Our FAs are about to start service, so please go to the restroom now, and then try to remain on your seat to enable them to serve you better". The airlines that use the seatbelt ON sign as crowd control, show the little respect they have for the intelligence of their customers. Shameful.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
db373
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:45 am

Quoting Contrails (Thread starter):
Then we had a smooth flight with the seatbelt sign off for over 2 hours. There was plenty of time to go to the lav, but guess what? A couple of pax waited until just after the seatbelt sign went on for our descent to go to the lav.

That's what I do unless someone makes in announcement warning me that the sign is about to be turned on. Maybe the airports you fly into you have a quick decent, but for some airports it can be a good 30-40 minutes from the time that sign is lit until the time you see a restroom again. I'd rather be an "idiot" and go at that point then have to struggle to hold it for another half an hour.

Oh, and by the way, who made you important enough to sit there and judge everyone? I just don't understand why what other passengers are doing bothers you so much. And if you have a problem getting up to let someone out then might I suggest a window seat?
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bond007
Posts: 4428
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:49 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 29):
When it's on for 1/2 a flight, that means it doesn't need to be taken seriously.

Nothing personal, but that's your opinion having no knowledge of the Captain's information. You may well be correct, but you may be very wrong.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 29):
American carriers are worse than most at leaving it on for long periods of time even if the flight is smooth.

yes, I totally agree.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 29):
Why does my 6 hour flight from JFK-SEA have it on for at least 2 hours, whereas my AMS-BRU flight lasting 20 minutes has it off unless the plane is below 10,000 ft?

Well, I hear what you are saying, but your comparison is pretty poor. Does AMS-BRU get much above 10,000ft? If it does, the percentage of the flight it's on, is still more than the JFK-SEA flight.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 29):
Maybe people will respect "rules" when they're reasonable, eh?

No. They should respect rules whether they think they are reasonable or not. If we think the rules are stupid, we should attempt to get our opinion heard. Rules don't get changed by people breaking them ... it only makes those that enforce them... more likely to try and continue to enforce them.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
baron95
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:50 am

Quoting Kalvado (Reply 25):
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/commerce/circulars/AC0149.htm

Thanks again Kalvado for posting that link. Transport Canada is clearly more enlightened than Contrails/Bond007 and most airlines. Here is a quote from their recomendations:

"Air operators should discourage the practice of unnecessary illumination of the seat belt sign. The seat belt sign should be illuminated only when required - during take-off, landing, turbulence or when the pilot-in-command considers it necessary to do so for safety reasons.

When the seat belt sign is illuminated and flight attendants are still providing service, an explanation should be given periodically to passengers explaining why the passengers need to be seated with seat belts fastened, even though the flight attendants are not."

This is dead on. If you yell fire repeatedely, people will ignore you. Treat passengers with respect, as adults, with respect for their intelligence and they will behave like responsible people. Treat them like morons and they will ignore (as they should) the moronic rules of the airlines.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
airwave
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:53 am

And what about passengers afflicted with such wondrous maladies as irritable bowel syndrome, Crone's disease, or ulcerative colitis? Sometimes, even with the aid of medication, you just have to go.

I consider myself to be a rather polite passenger and I'll gladly do what the seat belt sign tells me to do--but if my body is telling me it's go time and the F/As say its not, well, I'll make sure not to flush so I have proof for the Air Marshals and TSA when we land.  Smile
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
 
2175301
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:55 am

What an amazing series of what I consider dumb statements from people on both sides...

In this day and age of delayed flights, connections that you often make because you move directily from one plane to another, ground delays (on both takeoff and landing), etc it is a fact of life that people will need to use the facilities while onboard the plane.

With the exception of actual takeoffs and landing (which includes active taxying) people cannot be expected to wait. Some people with medical problems may not have a lot of warning (when the urge comes... it comes).

So you get up and go. Regardless of the seatbelt sign (and why it is on). That is life.

Ahhh.... does the crew do things any different - or are they all wearing depends?

What is there to complain about?
 
bond007
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:57 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 33):
Transport Canada is clearly more enlightened than Contrails/Bond007 and most airlines

Read my posts, especially the one where I said I agreed with the above link.  Yeah sure

...oh, and read the other posts where I asked "where did I say that" .... this is another?

You seem to be posting with no regard to what I (or others) have posted ... or with no understanding of what we said (more likely).


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
baron95
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:07 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 32):
No. They should respect rules whether they think they are reasonable or not.

That is one point of view - which I doubt even you follow. For instance do you sometimes drive over the speed limit?

History is FULL of laws and rules that fell into dis-use (if there is such word) and stopped being enforced simply because the population made it clear they were stupid. I think there are still many laws in the US that make it illegal for husdband and wives to have oral sex or at one time for a black person to marry a white person. I guess you'd be for "respecting those rules" until they were changed right?

Please. Informed citzens should make it clear, by action, when certain rules are so stupid as to necessitate being ignored.

Now, I'm not saying that the seatbelt rules necessarily fall into that category, but you get off making these black and white grandiose statements, "should respect rules whether they think they are reasonable or not", that someone should point out the absurdity of your statements.

Having said that, Mr. Bond007, I'll apologize in advance for giving you such a hard time. You did, after all, make a few valid points and contributed to the discussion. So please don't take offense if I disagree forcefully with some of your positions.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
sparkingwave
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:15 pm

Quoting Contrails (Thread starter):
I don't wish for people to get hurt, but I was secretly hoping we'd hit an air pocket just rough enough to scare the crap out of these idiots who don't think the seatbelt sign means anything.

This already happened, although I'm not sure the airplane had its seat belt sign on. I'm referring to the UA flight in the Pacific from NRT to HNL that hit turbulence and suddenly fell about 3,000 feet. During that flight an unbelted woman flew up and slammed into the ceiling, breaking her neck and dying right after.

One should always keep their seatbelt ON while the plane is flying. You never know what forces are swirling around the aircraft!

SparkingWave ~~~
Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
 
bond007
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:20 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 37):
You did, after all, make a few valid points and contributed to the discussion. So please don't take offense if I disagree forcefully with some of your positions.

Sure, I speed every day ... I also get up with the seatbelt sign on... GASP! I just don't go to car forums and tell everyone how it's OK to speed, and there's no need to restrict speed, and everyone should drive as fast as they'd like, and that 30mph sign is stupid and let's all drive 45mph past it. ... and NO, I don't drive 80mph in a 35 zone, just because I think it's going to change the rules. I find out who to voice my opinions to, perhaps my congressman, whoever, and see to it.

Please find some better examples than the oral sex ones ... hardly a similar comparison.

Oh, my 'few valid points' .... I feel so much better  Yeah sure

I don't take offense because I don't believe you took the time to read my posts and understand my position.

...anyway....


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
WNCrew
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:31 pm

You all bring up some VERY valid points! Good discussion!

I always make my required PA's about the seatbelt sign and then if pax choose to get up while the sign is on (and the crew is up) then I ignore them. I am not in the flight deck, I don't know why the sign is on and I'm not going to tell everyone who comes to the lav that the seatbelt sign is on...they obviously have to use the restroom and if anything, giving them a lesson in the seatbelt sign only keeps them out of their seat longer.

There are only a few times I'll say something to a pax about the seatbelt sign:

*During taxi/takeoff/landing - obvious reasons.
*If it's obviously turbulent and the crew is seated or has asked to be seated by the captain.
*If the seatbelt sign is on and people are just standing in the aisles or milling about without the intention of using the lavs.

My ONE peeve is when I DO say something about the seatbelt sign like,

CREW "You know sir the seatbelt sign is on right now and it's not safe to be up."

PAX "Not even to use the lavatory?"

What does that mean? "Not even to use the lavatory?" If it's not safe to be up its not safe to be up ...period, I don't think mother nature cares if you're using the lavatory or if you're standing on your head singing Yankee Doodle....turbulence is turbulence.

In regards to the seatbelt itself, WHY does everyone insist on taking them off in flight? It's not like it's searing into your flesh. You could at least loosen it and keep it fastened. I've been through some scary Clear Air Turbulence and I always have mine on when traveling as a pax. Also why do you all take them off BEFORE we get to the gate? Again, are they painful to wear? DO you all remember that incident where the NW DC-9 lost steering control in DTW (I think it was) and crashed into the wing of the A320. If you were one of the geniuses with their seatbelts unfastened or standing up you could have been seriously injured!

Then when we do park everyone stands up at once...and NOBODY can go anywhere...I think it's funny. People can be so silly!
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
VHXLR8
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:26 pm

From what I'm seeing in this thread, most of the comments relate to the use of the seatbelt sign on American carriers; rather than an overall airline trend.
It's no secret that airlines in the US are very liberal with the seatbelt sign, and do use it to control pax movements in the cabin etc.
In most other countries, this is not the case, and guess what; there is more respect for the seatbelt sign when it comes on. Also, at my airline, cabin crew are required to be seated when the seatbelt sign comes on (except for when taxiing, so as to arm/disarm doors and check the cabin etc), that in itself reinforces the safety element of it. Also, if you get up when the sign is on, you won't be asked to sit down, you'll be TOLD to!!
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:35 pm

I was on a Skyway 328Jet flight to PIT a few years ago and the flight was unfornuatly staffed by one grumpy mean F/A. The seat belt sign was on, however neither engine was started yet which means the aircraft was in no position to suddenly move in the next minute, but this old man just wanted to stand up quick and remove his jacket as he was getting too warm. The F/A jumped out of her jumpseat like a grenade just hit the floor and chewed the poor old man a new one in front of the 20 some passengers on board. And yes, neither of the engine were even started by the time she got done screaming at the man.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
baron95
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:54 pm

Quoting VHXLR8 (Reply 41):
It's no secret that airlines in the US are very liberal with the seatbelt sign



Quoting VHXLR8 (Reply 41):
In most other countries, this is not the case



Quoting VHXLR8 (Reply 41):
Also, if you get up when the sign is on, you won't be asked to sit down, you'll be TOLD to!!

Two personal annecdotes on FA/passenger interactions on international flight.:

1 - I was on a BA flight from LHR to some european city perhaps Nice perhaps Lisbon (can't remember). after flying 7hrs+2hr connecting wait to LHR, as soon as I got on borad the BA flight, I put on my seatbelt, ear plugs and my eye cover to try to catch some sleep. The FA came on during the safety briefieing and told me I couldn't have my eye cover on during the briefing and had to watch the briefing. I tried to ignore it, but he was obviously bent on making a fuss about it, so I took it off. Off course I kept my eyes closed, but apparently that did not bother him. Go figure these strict international crew - doesn't mean they are any less silly. You can close your eyes, but you can't have eye covers on ?!?!?

2 - On a flight from south america during pushback taxi, I heard this loud scream "SIT DOWN" followed by a mubled you $#%# (I couldn't tell what the exletive was. That was followed by a father picking up a baby in his arms, and a little girl by the hands and walking down the isle demanding that the plane be brought back to the gate and the federal police of the country called in. Lots of FAs started trying to intervene, eventually the relieve flight crew person came out of the cokpit to intervene, but the guy would not budge. Flight goes back to the gate. They tried to ask the father to deplane or go back to his seat, but he would not budge. Federal police came in. The father makes accusation to the Police that the FA had verbally assaulted him and by proxy abused his children. Federal police hauls the father, the kids, the captain, the FA in question, other FAs and a few witnesses for interrogation on another bulding. Rest of the crew tell the passangers that they don't know when the flight will depart and for everyone to stay put. A federal police agent was at the door. I asked her how long this matter would take and she says probably a long time since that particularly airline is known to create trouble and the country has very strong consumer protection and verbal assault laws. I grabbed my carry-on, left the plane walked to the next gate which had a flight departing to another city by the same airline that could take me to my destination wiht one extra stop, got them to take my ticket and away I went, so I don't know what the end of the story was. BUT, don't assume that ALL passengers will take being TOLD/YELLED what to do lightly. Apparently this one guy was determined enough to miss his flight, but teach the FA/crew a lesson and/oe show his kids that he was not going to be yelled at.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
jetboy319
Posts: 231
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 1:55 pm

I can see both sides. As a Flight Attendant, this is something I am faced with everyday. As previously mentioned by other Flight Attendant's on this thread, I do make the necessary announcements regarding the sign, it's a FAR. However, the Captain has usually briefed the crew on enroute weather, so if I know it is reasonably safe for me to be up, I will usually just ignore PAX who get up and use the lav. On the other hand, if the Captain has indicated that he/she is expecting turbulence and asks us to sit, I do not hesitate to tell people to return to their seats. This is not only for their safety but also for the safety of those around them that they could fall into and such. Also, if the aircraft is under 10,000 feet I will tell PAX to return to their seats. As far as people taking off their seat belts before the a/c is at the gate, just 2 weeks ago as we were taxiing in, the aircraft stopped suddenly and abruptly. I saw a passenger in a bulk-head row literally come out of her seat and hit the wall in front of her. She ended up bruising her arm and leg and also bumped her forehead. The bottom line is that upon landing, it's not an extraordinary request for passengers to remain buckled with carry-on items stowed and overhead bins closed until the sign is off. Unfortunately it takes situations like this for some people to understand why certain rules are in place.
Cheers!
 
AirlineBrat
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:16 pm

Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 8):
I've been on any number of flights where as soon as the seat belt sign is released, you hear...'excuse me...excuse me...excuse me' as these imbeciles push their way to the front of the plane.

Their bags are often the last ones to slide onto the carousel at baggage claim.  Big grin

US carriers are usually slow on turning the 'sit down' light off after takeoff. CX turned it off at 10,000 during ascent. I did see one elderly lady stand up during the take off roll as we left LAX for HKG. The FA got on the PA and yelled at her in Chinese to sit down. She did.

There was one time several decades ago where I learned my lesson once and for all...... Our flight was several hours late leaving SFO for EWR so alcoholic beverages were made complementary in Y class. Since I was slightly over 21 at that point, I took full advantage of the free bar and pretty much cleaned the galley out of Heineken during the 4 1/2 hour flight. As we started our descent into EWR, the captain came on and said that we would be landing in 25 minutes so he was going to turn the seatbelt sign on for the duration of the trip. I had just finished my last beverage, so I made a run for the lavatory. The FA sitting near the lav saw me and asked me to sit down. So I did. Well, my bladder got to the point that I was sweating profusely and I started pondering what options I had including going under the seat in front of me as the 767 was 1/4 full and no one was sitting in the row in front of me. I finally couldn't stand it any more, I was ready to pass out. So I got up and made another run for the lav. When I caught the FA's eye, I told her that I could not wait anymore and that I was in an emergency situation and would take full responsibility for anything that may happen to me... so help me god!! When I was done, I returned to my seat as quick as I could. I learned my lesson and rarely drink much on aircraft anymore... unless I am in first class and the FA keeps filling my glass. If I do imbibe, I stop early enough to make sure I have enough time to make a final lav run before the seatbelt light comes back on and will be able to make it until I disembark.
I'm leavin on a jet plane. Don't know when I'll be back again....
 
workflyer
Posts: 166
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 2:31 pm

As far as staying buckled while taxiing to the gate. It is worth it. I have seen pax go for six as they stood up before we got to the gate and over they went when the brakes were applied. Brakes on planes are pretty good at stopping and the effect of that coupled with hydraulics means there can be a lot of "G" applied if the brakes are hit hard. Even had one flight departing AKL when a bloke stood up as we were commencing our take off roll. He certainly got told in no uncertain terms to sit (To use JAFA39's expression, he was a "me no undertand" type passenger)

As far as ignoring seat belt signs, there will always be some bozo who ignores it thinking they know better or that the sign does not apply to them. Just last week on Qantas flight to ZQN there were two such bozos. We could not land at ZQN so we did a go around after a low approach and diverted to IVC. The captain came on and said since the divert would be 20 minutes only and that it would be at a low level the seatbelt sign would stay on. This did not stop one guy getting up to get into the overhead. He was told to sit down and he did. Then Mr "I am ever so important" got up walked back down the aisle and started chatting to a colleage, all the while the FA was telling him to sit. He ignored her and carried on his conversation, two minutes later he went back. There were a few bumps and we were on approach to IVC at the time. At times like that I have a small secret desire to hit an airpocket, however of course he would have landed on some innocent and been unhurt himself.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 17):
Number of people who have been killed or seriously injured for going going to the restroom or retrieving luggage during pushback or tow in to the gate: ZERO

Baron, this one I know as incorrect in one case I know of. There used to be a well known musician here in NZ who played percussion for the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra. At least he did until some unthinking pax retrieved their bag from the overhead while the plane was taxiing and then dropped it on his hand as they lost their balance. One dropped bag, one end to a career. I believe he sued the airline involved, I don't know the result of it though.
 
NorthstarBoy
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:00 pm

funny story: i was flying TG from Bkk-Hkg a few years ago, we had just landed, so the aircraft was still on the active runway/taxiway, the entire time during descent and landing i noticed passengers were getting up and going to the lavs, finally, i couldn't stand it anymore, i leaned forward to the flight attendant sitting across from me (I was in the door 3 exit row on a 744) and said "in the US they'd never get away with that." the f/a said "oh, those are Japanese Tourists, they do whatever they want, we can't control them." priceless.



Quoting ArcrftLvr (Reply 8):
This and the people that rush to the front of the plane as soon as the A/C is parked at the gate. I've been on any number of flights where as soon as the seat belt sign is released, you hear...'excuse me...excuse me...excuse me' as these imbeciles push their way to the front of the plane. I purposely act like I don't hear them and just stand in their way in the aisle. The best is when the tap you on the back and you don't even acknowledge their existence. The only time I don't stand in their way is if we were delayed and the F/As ask everyone to remain seated while passengers attempting to make their connections get off first.

One of my big pet peeves are the people on the aisles who basically trap two other passengers in their seats, who may or may not have tight connections, by taking their sweet time, talking to their buddy across the aisle, and in the meantime you have four other passengers standing in their seatrow, waiting as everyone else moves up the aisle.
you just want to say "jeez, get a move on!"

that and the phenomenon that happens mostly in the south where the "nice young man" bottlenecks the entire aisle as he helps the little old lady sitting next to him get her bag and lets her go first with the effect of slowing everyone else down. you just want to say "forget the little old lady, get your gear and get it in gear, move it!"

I do admit i've been guilty of getting up while the aircraft was on the taxiway once. i was in F on a UA 757 from Lga-Den, we were inline for takeoff, i'd drank a 64 cup of soda before i got on the plane, and biology kicked in something fierce, i could not wait, i actually got up, and being as i very rarely if ever fly first class, i couldn't locate the lav, i did return to my seat at the direction of the f/a, who wanted to know what i was looking for, and the moment we lifted off, he beckoned me up and said "make it quick." me and my bladder were grateful, and i know i could not have gotten away with that in coach, so i guess there are some benefits to flying first class.
Yes, I'd like to see airbus go under so Boeing can have their customers!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:46 pm

Quoting Contrails (Thread starter):
Does anyone else think the way I do about these idiots

Maybe a PA directed towards the PAX in concern by the FA would embarass the person.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:19 am

RE: Pax Who Ignore Seatbelt Sign

Wed Aug 08, 2007 5:16 pm

Quoting WorkFlyer (Reply 46):
Number of people who have been killed or seriously injured for going going to the restroom or retrieving luggage during pushback or tow in to the gate: ZERO

Baron, this one I know as incorrect in one case I know of. There used to be a well known musician here in NZ who played percussion for the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra. At least he did until some unthinking pax retrieved their bag from the overhead while the plane was taxiing and then dropped it on his hand as they lost their balance. One dropped bag, one end to a career. I believe he sued the airline involved, I don't know the result of it though.

Hummm. First I said pushback or tow in, not taxi. Second I said killed or seriously injured. You are talking about some musician injuring his pinkie and finding a reason to sue the airline. I think I'll stand by my remarks.

If you are going to talk about finger injuries as serious, you then would have to examine the very, very frequent occurance of a food/beverage/freeshop cart squishing people's fingers, hands, elbows, feet and even heads (as they sleep on long haul flights). I personally have been hit very hard a vew times and have seen some nasty cuts and a lot off blood on others on two occasions - one was a little girl. So lets ban (redesign) those food carts first, shall we? They are way more dangerous than getting up from your seat below 10,000 ft.
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