Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
PlaneGuy27
Posts: 289
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:38 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:42 am

Quoting ORD Boy 2 (Reply 49):
and what about other routes that I am sure UA holds like to TLV which I assume they hold a right through the Pan Am Deal

That went to Delta and not United. TWA's went to American ...

United is current trying to get a code share approved between them and Swiss to Israel.
 
hiflyer
Posts: 1274
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 1:38 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:54 am

Figure ORD expansion to be more likely that IAD for Intl....IAD customs is running about twice capacity and is a mess...a real mess....with no immediate solution. The term used is melt down regarding Customs at IAD.
 
FLYGUY767
Topic Author
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:58 am

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 46):
I'm not saying UA shouldn't enter the market, its just that with Alaska announcing daily flights I wonder if the 4X week still makes sense. I wonder when the analysis was done and what new number crunching would show with the changing competitive situation.

I am willing to bet out of every 90 out of every 100 people that live in Hawaii dont know of Alaska Airlines, and do know United Airlines. The sense that Alaska Airlines entering a market is going to scare of United Airlines expansion into a market is totally laughable. Let the best man win. Do you think that United Airlines is afraid that Virgin America just started? Probably not, brand loyalty goes a long ways. Do you think that United Airlines is afraid that Jet Blue just started SFO-JFK? Probably not, as I have said before brand loyalty goes a long way. United Airlines is the strongest US airline to Hawaii, a new entrant to the market is not going to make United back down if they do decide to enter the market.

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 46):
Add in what NW and HA currently offer and it sure looks to me like the route would have a lot of capacity all at once. Someone will end up with empty seats.

As I have said earlier on routes like JFK-SFO service has expanded not decreased this year. In fact it has increased with the entrance of Virgin America and Jet Blue into the market. United Airlines still operates their flights, as does American and Delta. All of the additional capacity hasn't scared them off..

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 45):
Look at boardings for US carriers at FCO vs MXP. FCO is the larger US-Italy market for those carriers.

Those numbers are higher due to the peak in leisure demand in the Summer Season to Rome

AA> Decreases ORD-FCO
AA> Decreases JFK-FCO
DL> Drops JFK-FCO from 2 to 1 flight
DL> Drops ATL-FCO from 2 to 1 flight
DL> Suspends CVG-FCO

The flip side is that while you argue that Milan has such lack luster demand US airlines they also have year-round service to Chicago, Boston, New York. JFK, Newark, and Miami from Milan by Alitalia.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 45):
And yes MXP does offer less onward non-AZ connectivity then FCO does. One of the reasons why even AZ has had problems with its MXP hub has been the dual airport setup the city has.

Alitalia at current runs more inter-continental, and international routes from Malpensa than Rome. In addition to that the notion that Alitalia has problems with Malpensa due to flight dis-connectivity because of a tri(not dual) airport set-up is totally false. The only unique routes from Linate that are not flown from Malpensa are: Brindisi, Cagliari, Reggio Calabria. Those total to near nothing of connecting traffic on a daily basis.

Quoting Airlittoralguy (Reply 43):
While combining MXP, LIN and BGY, is Milan not much bigger than FCO + CIA in Rome ? This both for cargo and pax figures . In fact, is Milan not one of Europe's top 5 metro market ??

MILANO
BGY, MXP, LIN = 36, 000, 000 Pax per year

ROMA
FCO, CIA = 34, 950, 000 Pax per year

SELECT EUROPEAN METRO MARKETS

London 13,000, 000
Moscow 12, 622, 000
Paris, 12, 000, 000
Dusseldorf 10, 000, 000
**Milan 7, 400, 000
Amsterdam 6, 700, 000
Madrid 5, 561, 000
**Naples 4, 200, 000
Berlin 4, 900, 000
Athens 3, 800, 000
**Rome 2, 700, 000
Munich 2, 610, 000
**Turin 2, 200, 000
Vienna 2, 200, 000
Brussels 2, 090, 000
Hamburg 1, 755, 000
Barcelona 1, 605, 000
Marseille 1, 605, 000
**Padua-Venice 1, 600, 000
Frankfurt 1, 468, 000
Seville 1, 415, 000
Zurich 1, 010, 000

** - Italian Cities

Hope this helps..

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
N174UA
Posts: 1010
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:17 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting Flybynight (Reply 44):
How about Seattle - London? UA used to fly this route

Won't happen because...

Quoting Flybynight (Reply 44):
I believe BA is now up to 2 daily flights to SEA from Heathrow

BA is a legend on that route. If BA thinks someone can profitably move in, they'll take action to prevent that. Between AF to CDG, NW to AMS, and SK to CPH, I think the SEA market is covered. Only other flight I could see would be a flight to FRA or MUC.
 
dl767captain
Posts: 1206
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:51 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:43 am

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 22):

I'm not sure what you mean I should not work in management, $900 is a rediculous amount, and while they might be getting that from some people they are obviously losing customers (they lost me) when you have low cost carriers that offer more than united they need to lower prices or add something to remain competitive and appealing
 
hnl-jack
Posts: 278
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 10:34 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:59 am

At one time everyone in Hawaii wore UA on their sleeve. They were the hometown airline. Not so today. HA's FF program surpasses UA's by substantial numbers in Hawaii and has developed a strong FF base up and down the west coast. UA may have PH, but what they don't have is the product to compete effectively with the likes of HA. I fly both and there simply is no comparison. HA's airplanes are newer, offer full meals in Y and have crews that are enthusastic and anxious to serve. When was the last time you saw that on UA consistantly in the last few years. UA is reacting to the momentum HA is gaining and chooses to compete on the basis of very low yield wholesaler contracts.

AQ also has a good inflight product, but it's a small B-737-700, not nearly as comfortable as wide-body equipment. Add to that, no frequency. Their share is small and is limited to small secondary markets. UA came to their rescue at a time when AQ could see the door closing. They're still on life support and I doubt that UA will find their association helps UA much at all. There was a time when interisland feed traffic was important to UA...not anymore. AQ brings little to the UA party.

United's strength would be to expand the number of markets they serve non-stop from interior U.S. points. They have JFK (second largest mainland Hawaii market) and IAD that could both support non-stop Hawaii service at higher yields and with less dependance on wholesaler support. They're reacting to HA and their rise to a strong number 2 in the market. Instead of competing from markets where UA has dominance, their choosing to launch a half hearted attach in markets that are dominated by other carriers with domestic configuration 757's. Sounds like the same old UA to me.
 
FLYGUY767
Topic Author
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:19 am

Quoting HNL-Jack" class=quote target=_blank>HNL-Jack (Reply 55):
HA's airplanes are newer, offer full meals in Y and have crews that are enthusastic and anxious to serve.

Lately the Hawaiian Airlines crews are less than anxious and more likely to be sitting in the galley and talking story than caring to fly up the aisle to respond to a Flight Attendant call button. Perhaps you are having a good run on Hawaiian Airlines. I would say that image of Hawaiian Airlines was from 2004-2005.. Recently I havent seen anything but the above when I flew LAS-HNL-LAX in April, and LAX-HNL-SFO in January I have found their service to the total contrary of what you are stating in your reply.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
eva777sea
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:16 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:13 am

Quoting N174UA (Reply 53):
BA is a legend on that route. If BA thinks someone can profitably move in, they'll take action to prevent that. Between AF to CDG, NW to AMS, and SK to CPH, I think the SEA market is covered. Only other flight I could see would be a flight to FRA or MUC.

Tell that to EI, BD, and VS. All of whom have stated interest in flying to SEA.

Although, I do not see UA re-entering the market, especially if BD has plans to do so.
 
flightopsguy
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:51 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:20 am

Quoting HNL-Jack" class=quote target=_blank>HNL-Jack (Reply 55):
United's strength would be to expand the number of markets they serve non-stop from interior U.S. points

Remember BAL-HNL nonstop on the DC-8-62?

A very thoughtful response, Jack!
A300-330 BAC111/146/J31/41 B99/1900 CV580 B707-777 DC8/9/10 L188/1011 FH227/28/100 SB340 DO228 EMB2/170 CR2-900 SH330-60
 
baw716
Posts: 1463
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:21 am

Chicago-Milan? I don't think so. Reason:

The market is not large enough to support two carriers and unless UA is thinking that AZ will disappear (which may be why they are thinking about it), there is no way they can be profitable on that route, especially going up against AZ.

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 25403
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:22 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 52):
Those numbers are higher due to the peak in leisure demand in the Summer Season to Rome

 checkmark  Thanks for confirming my point that Rome is a larger market for US airlines.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 52):
The flip side is that while you argue that Milan has such lack luster demand US airlines they also have year-round service to Chicago, Boston, New York. JFK, Newark, and Miami from Milan by Alitalia.

Indeed. You expect AZ to shut down service in the winter months to most North American destinations? Milan is their main intercontinental hub. US airlines try to scale back the best they can at MXP to ride out the winter.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 52):
the notion that Alitalia has problems with Malpensa due to flight dis-connectivity

You might want to read the report produced by consultants looking into the carriers mess and potential restructuting.

One major network issue citied was the carriers Rome vs Milan split hub operations and other one the issue of Milan intercontinental ops at MXP while much domestic (incl. main Rome shuttle) and many European services operate from closer in LIN.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
SANFan
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:10 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:15 am

Quoting HNL-Jack" class=quote target=_blank>HNL-Jack (Reply 20):
And, the SAN market is too thin to sustain any more service.

Source for this statement please? I disagree completely. For example, the only reason AQ is not flying SAN-HNL is the lack of a/c; they had the route in 2005, replacing the failed YVR-HNL segment, and it ended in August of that year when a leased plane (or 2?) went back to its owner. I am confident that if or when they acquire more planes, SAN service will be expanded.

Even though HA flies 2x daily out of Lindbergh, only one flight is to HNL. I expect there is ample traffic for at least one more daily trip SAN-HNL. It would be great to see UA get back into the market in earnest; they and WA duked it out for years in the late 60s/70s, with UA even throwing a 747 on the route (via LA) for a while.

Looking at it from another angle, SAN currently has 2 daily flights to Maui (HA & AQ) so it would be hard to believe that HNL could support only 1 flight!

I for one hope this rumor is true and we will see UA increase its capacity/frequency between SAN and HNL.

bb
 
User avatar
flybynight
Posts: 1539
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:35 am

I would love it if UA flew to OSL. YES!! Say Dulles to OSL. Use one of those premium 757's. If Continental can do it...

Of course SK might get a little PO'ed, but that's their problem since they are ones who pulled out of the direct flight to OSL.
I think CO is doing well on this route.
Heia Norge!
 
scorpy
Posts: 168
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:26 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:35 am

I would still think that if they are going to convert a few 763's to international standards, that DEN-LHR would get the nod before ORD-MXP. A daily 767 service might be a good start to the route, depending on what slots UA decide to use, and what the terms are on the ones they leased out (i.e. if they have to wait until the leases expire to get them back).

scorpy
 
FATFlyer
Posts: 5262
Joined: Fri May 18, 2001 4:12 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:39 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 52):
I am willing to bet out of every 90 out of every 100 people that live in Hawaii dont know of Alaska Airlines, and do know United Airlines. The sense that Alaska Airlines entering a market is going to scare of United Airlines expansion into a market is totally laughable. Let the best man win.

90 out of 100 people in Hawaii? shouldn't we look at the Seattle MSA, the larger end of the route. The state population in Hawaii is about 1.3 million. The population of just the Seattle/Tacoma MSA is over 3.2 million. I think it is more important (and more profitable) to be better known in Seattle, that's the larger population base. Alaska Air dominates Seattle, plus has a much larger feed operation at SEA.

I would expect 100 out of 100 in Hawaii know HA but I don't think it means that Hawaiians will only choose HA.

I'm not saying UA should be scared off, just that the competitive situation changed when AS put out their press release. I simply wondered if the idea of 4X/wk originated before AS made an announcement or not.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 52):
As I have said earlier on routes like JFK-SFO service has expanded not decreased this year. In fact it has increased with the entrance of Virgin America and Jet Blue into the market. United Airlines still operates their flights, as does American and Delta. All of the additional capacity hasn't scared them off..

At what change in ticket prices? So perhaps instead of empty seats it will be lower ticket prices, my point is that in my mind the industry is facing a real slugfest the next year or 2 as Skybus, Virgin, etc gear up and other companies take delivery on new aircraft. I don't like seeing anything that is going to lower yields for anyone, including too many seats chasing a market that may not show much elasticity.

SEA is already the 3rd largest US market to Hawaii, I'm not sure if it can grow that rapidly all at once. Residents have other leisure dollar choices besides just Hawaii.

And brand loyalty, well we are talking about primarily leisure markets here. A very large percentage cares nothing about brand loyalty, they want to find the lowest price to take their vacation.

Personally I expect someone will blink on the route. If you think UA will accept low yields to win at SEA, well there is nothing I can say to that except that the real winner will be the Seattle passengers who get lower fares, not one of the airlines.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
ualcsr
Posts: 381
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 12:53 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:22 pm

The number one issue for UA is aircraft availability. Although UA throws us a curve ball every now and then (KWI, FCO), I still think that any UA expansion will be to markets where good yields are almost assured from the get-go.

That said and to put in my two cents worth.....I've heard rumours about IAD-MAD. I know, I know...IB just started this service; it's only a rumour. I've also heard IAD-FCO is doing very well, better than expected. I could've sworn I read somewhere about the possibility of a tag from FCO to ADD which would be great but of course, would involve more aircraft.

In the European market, UA is heavily dependant on its *A partners, especially LH. DUS didn't work before and UA, along with LH code shares is already dominant in the US-FRA and to a lesser extent, US-MUC market; I just don't see a third German city. I still think that a big reason to go into FCO was based on Air One's connectivity there and maybe (just maybe) a gamble that AZ might go under and Air One become the dominant airline in Italy. Following the *A logic, I think we could see IAD-WAW come aboard before any other routes to Europe, CPH and VIE already being covered by code shares on SK and OS. That would leave TP but I just can't see UA expanding to LIS.

Here's an interesting one-----how 'bout IAD-IST once TK joins *A? Any ideas on that one?
 
mymiles2go
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:00 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:46 pm

Quoting Ualcsr (Reply 65):
I could've sworn I read somewhere about the possibility of a tag from FCO to ADD which would be great but of course, would involve more aircraft.

Ethiopia?
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 25403
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:56 pm

Quoting Ualcsr (Reply 65):
how 'bout IAD-IST once TK joins *A? Any ideas on that one?

Great, however TK has talked about starting the route themselves which I am sure would work for UA to code-share with.

Have heard about MAD on and off these last couple years as well to tie in to Spanair, however nothing came of it. Also now that SAS has put Spanair on sale, I'd say all bets are off for its future alliance relationships. LIS is possible as well even being a smaller market as TAP has very limited North America presence. For WAW, I could see LOT running a IAD flight themselves once they start getting their 787s.

In the mean time as KWI goes daily in '08 a short tag-on flight in the Gulf could come to fruition finally.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
ualcsr
Posts: 381
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 12:53 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:47 pm

Quoting Mymiles2go (Reply 66):
Ethiopia?

Yes. ET already code shares with LH and there have rumblings about their joining *A. With Ethiopia having been an Italian colony, there are certainly ties there. I don't think it will happen only because it would involve using more aircraft, but I know I read about it somewhere.



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 67):
LIS is possible as well even being a smaller market as TAP has very limited North America presence. For WAW, I could see LOT running a IAD flight themselves once they start getting their 787s.

In the mean time as KWI goes daily in '08 a short tag-on flight in the Gulf could come to fruition finally.

Yes, with the exception of the much talked-about DEN-LHR route, I agree that UA's near-term future in Europe will be through code shares. LIS, I think, would be a perfect example of where UA could send a 757 (provided the range is OK), but we know that's not gonna' to happen.

With respect to the KWI tag-on and having read here that DBX is off the table, where do you think it would go? My guess is DOH with AMM second.
 
VC10er
Posts: 4321
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:25 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:33 pm

why are these proposed routes called growth plans, like IAD to GIG this fall, when all they do is kill one route over there and add another over there? maybe it will grow pax revenue but why dont they just get a few used 767's? if the new RG can get 12 united surely could get a few?
if were to consider investing in UA i would want to see real growth, not just moving the dots around on their route map!
To Most the Sky is The Limit, For me, the Sky is Home.
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2269
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:55 pm

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 51):
Figure ORD expansion to be more likely that IAD for Intl....IAD customs is running about twice capacity and is a mess...a real mess....with no immediate solution. The term used is melt down regarding Customs at IAD.

I completely disagree. IAD has two customs areas, one common use area for all carriers and one for UA/Star connecting pax. IAD is likely has the best customs layout for Star Alliance Int'l arriving connections in the U.S. It gets very busy in the afternoon but so does every customs facility at any major Int'l gateway esp. in the summer. The reason IAD's FIS is much better, is b/c when you exit the customs facility...you're in the middle of the C-concourse where you can connect to all UA connections and a short mobile lounge ride to the A/B terminal for UAX and all other carriers (ex US). So even if it takes you an hour to get through INS/claim bags/Customs/recheck bags/clear security, you're still much better off than going through a remote customs facility, where doing all of the above would take twice as long.

This is yet another reason UA has chosen to utilize IAD for transatl traffic.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
FLYGUY767
Topic Author
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:22 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 60):
One major network issue citied was the carriers Rome vs Milan split hub operations and other one the issue of Milan intercontinental ops at MXP while much domestic (incl. main Rome shuttle) and many European services operate from closer in LIN.

As I have said every European destination and Italian destination is served from MXP except for Brindisi, Reggio Calabria, and Cagliari which are routes that are unique to Linate. As I have said above the routes of Brindisi, Reggio Calabria, and Cagliari are non-players when it comes to Inter-Continental traffic.. There are 8 flights a day from MXP to FCO on Alitalia metal. I dont think it is written anywhere that Malpensa needs an hourly flight to Rome to support its Inter-Continental connecting traffic.

If people are so dead set on flying from MXP to Brindisi, Reggio Calabria, and Cagliari they can use the following:

Brindisi> MyAir
Cagliari> Meridiana, EasyJet, Eurofly
Reggio Calabria> MyAir, ItAli Airlines

As I have said before Brindisi, Reggio Calabria, and Cagliari are non players when it comes to connecting Inter-Continental traffic at Malpensa, nor are they essential.

Could you please post this "Major Network Issue Report" that you keep insisting are the reason for the problems with the dual-hub system?

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 25403
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:49 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 71):
Could you please post this "Major Network Issue Report" that you keep insisting are the reason for the problems with the dual-hub system?

Its a several hundred page presentation that was prepared for the carrier. I dont know of its avaialbility online.

However in media reports over the years, AZ dual hub strategy has been brought out as being problematic over and over.


Here are some examples;

Quote:
A Tale Of Two Hubs - The Root Of Alitalia's Woes?
September 10, 2004
Years of reliance on state bailouts and spiralling costs are two reasons Italy's Alitalia is in dire straits. But another major problem is the Italian carrier's failure to develop a real hub, analysts say.

With less than a week before next Wednesday's deadline to agree a restructure plan to save Alitalia from collapse, the airline's dual-hub problem has not been addressed.

Chief Executive Giancarlo Cimoli has said his rescue plan will split the airline into two separate entities, shed a quarter of the 20,000 workforce and inject fresh capital.

But he has said nothing publicly about hubs -- a political minefield for the flag carrier for more than a decade.

Whereas Air France is undoubtedly Paris-based, and Lufthansa's home is Frankfurt, Alitalia has a split personality, with hubs in both Milan and Rome.

Most European airlines operate a "hub and spoke" network, feeding traffic through their main airport, providing a maximum number of connections from their aircraft fleet.

But Italy's notorious north-south divide, with politicians vying to keep the jobs and prestige that accompany an airline hub in their constituencies, has prevented Alitalia from creating a single center for its network.

For rest of article
http://news.airwise.com/stories/2004/09/1094809507.html

Quote:
Alitalia's decision to keep hubs in both Milan and Rome has been criticized by analysts and has led the airline to lose ground on intercontinental flights to companies with bigger European hubs, like Air France in Paris and Lufthansa in Frankfurt.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/11/23/business/airfrance.php

Quote:
Alitalia plans to axe some long-haul routes - 23 Jul, 2007

Alitalia is mulling cutting some of its long-haul routes from Milan's Malpensa airport as part of a new business plan to stay afloat. Alitalia currently operates a costly dual-hub system based at both Malpensa and Rome's Fiumicino airport.

http://www.cargonewsasia.com/article.aspx?id=15&article=13602
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
FLYGUY767
Topic Author
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:06 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 72):
However in media reports over the years, AZ dual hub strategy has been brought out as being problematic over and over.

Thanks for the articles... According to the articles it is the standard "two-hubs" are bad. Which is false. It is the airline that is based at both hubs that is bad. Lufthansa can make FRA and MUC work, Iberia can make BCN and MAD work. The Milan market is by far more of a money maker, however as can be seen in true Italian fashion the presistent Roman adoration comes into play. Markets dropped by Alitalia from Malpensa such as BKK, AUH, and so forth will be filled by other airlines such as the case with TG and EY entering the Milan market.

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 25403
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 73):
Lufthansa can make FRA and MUC work

LH has indeed done a good job. Some of MUC growth off course has been out of necessity as FRA became saturated.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 73):
Iberia can make BCN and MAD work

I would not say it "works". IB has just about pulled itself out of BCN to focus on MAD and replaced much flying with its LCC Clickair.

Other European carriers have also struggled with dual hubs. Old Swissair with ZRH & GVA, while SAS still does with CPH, ARN and OSL to a certain extent.


However this thread is not about AZ or European hubs, but on UA so lets not hijack this thread any longer.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
SFORunner
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:23 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:04 am

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 46):
I'm not saying UA shouldn't enter the market, its just that with Alaska announcing daily flights I wonder if the 4X week still makes sense. I wonder when the analysis was done and what new number crunching would show with the changing competitive situation.

SEA, SMF, SAN, and PDX all have service to the non-West Coast UA hubs (DEN, ORD, IAD).

The possible increase / introduction of service to Hawaii from the above cities would provide pax from non-West Coast UA hubs alternate one-stop connection possibilities - besides LAX and SFO.

UA.com will sell you ORD - (SEA) - HNL, and depending on loads, etc. for significantly cheaper than the non-stop option.

Whether there's appreciable / sufficient connecting traffic to tilt SEA, SMF, SAN, and PDX Hawaii frequencies deeper into the black is another question .....  stirthepot 
 
mk777
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:48 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:24 am

Maybe UA could do IAD-DEL non-stop especially when AI joins the *A!!!!

With DL, CO and AA already in the Indian market, i am wondering what the UA strategy is on Indian scene!!! If they don't act on this soon enough, we could see 9W and IT rule this route and from what i have heard and read (A. net TR's) about these airlines, UA will face stiff competition not only on this route but also IAD-BOM, BLR, CCU, HYD, MAA in the distant future  Smile
come fly with me
 
SFORunner
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:23 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:32 am

Quoting Ualcsr (Reply 68):
With respect to the KWI tag-on and having read here that DBX is off the table, where do you think it would go? My guess is DOH with AMM second.

There's no non-stop passenger service between KWI and SIN.

And hey, IAD - KWI - SIN is roughly the same length as IAD - NRT - SIN.  stirthepot 
 
FLYGUY767
Topic Author
Posts: 1441
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 11:26 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:40 am

Quoting SFORunner (Reply 77):
There's no non-stop passenger service between KWI and SIN.

The aircraft is not on the ground long enough

KWI-SIN is 7.55 hours factoring in a 2 hour turn, winds et all you would need 18-19 hours for the turn

Quoting Ualcsr (Reply 68):
With respect to the KWI tag-on and having read here that DBX is off the table, where do you think it would go? My guess is DOH with AMM second

The KWI-AMM backtrack is senseless.. KWI-AMM is a 2 hour flight in reverse..

-JD
Summer Trip 2007: DEN HAAG>DUBAI>LONDON>VERONA>COSTA SMERALDA>CAPRI
 
aircanada014
Posts: 1224
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:24 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:08 am

So how soon will UA place a huge order of B787s? I would like to see them in UA liveries  Smile. I do hope they place the order soon cause the next available delivery slot is in 2014. UA and AA need to place their orders real soon to get the delivery slot.  Smile
 
SFORunner
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:23 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:24 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 78):
KWI-SIN is 7.55 hours factoring in a 2 hour turn, winds et all you would need 18-19 hours for the turn

Who said the UA KWI - SIN aircraft would have to turn around and fly back to KWI once it got to SIN?

Maybe there is *another* UA 777 already at SIN that could leave, say ... a few hours after it arrived from NRT  Wink The SIN - KWI and KWI - SIN jets could pass each other in the air somewhere over India.

Of course, some moderate schedule tweaking would be in order.  stirthepot 
 
ualcsr
Posts: 381
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 12:53 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:18 am

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 78):
The KWI-AMM backtrack is senseless.. KWI-AMM is a 2 hour flight in reverse..

I know, but it's the only place, other than DOH, where I could see a tag. Without backtracking, I suppose BAH, AUH, SHJ and MCT could be candidates but would they really be viable markets? RUH could be interesting given that no US airlines fly into Saudi, and there might be a market at GYD given Azerbaijan's huge oil reserves. Would there be enough ground time for a BLR tag? If UA would ever re-enter India, doing a tech express tag to BLR might be a viable option.
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:52 pm

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Thread starter):
Moscow from ORD(a current Aeroflot route)

Incorrect. Aeroflot does not fly to Chicago...pax or cargo.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2371
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:24 am

Quoting AirCanada014 (Reply 79):
So how soon will UA place a huge order of B787s? I would like to see them in UA liveries . I do hope they place the order soon cause the next available delivery slot is in 2014. UA and AA need to place their orders real soon to get the delivery slot.

When the likes of UA, AA and DL look to place big orders for the 787, don't be fooled to assume they will have to wait until 2014 before they get the aircraft!
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:48 am

Quoting VC10er (Reply 69):
why are these proposed routes called growth plans, like IAD to GIG this fall, when all they do is kill one route over there and add another over there? maybe it will grow pax revenue but why dont they just get a few used 767's? if the new RG can get 12 united surely could get a few?

Bcause UAL agreed to a business plan coming out of BK that had no capital expenditures for aircraft and pretty minimal capex at all compared to other airlines. They will have to utilize their existing resources better and based on their most recent quarter's results, they are doing it.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 73):
Thanks for the articles... According to the articles it is the standard "two-hubs" are bad.

Again, for this particular carrier. The Italian economy is smaller than the German economy and LH is a much larger intercontinental carrier. If AZ had large international operations from both hubs, it would be altogether different. But first they must have competitive costs which they don't because of labor... which is trying to strike as much as they are working....

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 83):
When the likes of UA, AA and DL look to place big orders for the 787, don't be fooled to assume they will have to wait until 2014 before they get the aircraft!

While the 787 is a great plane, it is not the end all and be all for international routes. There are other aircraft that are being sold for international growth including the A330 and 340 family as well as the 777 family.
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 6375
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:16 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:26 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 84):
While the 787 is a great plane, it is not the end all and be all for international routes. There are other aircraft that are being sold for international growth including the A330 and 340 family as well as the 777 family.

I agree. I think that a large part of the 787 will be replaceing certain 767 and 777 routes. People seem to think that the only thing that the 787 will be used for is ULH. The first versions of the 787 wont have the capacity to serve particular routes (like LAX-SYD, or ORD-HKG for example). I do think that we will see new routes from smaller markets opened up too, but not to the extent that everyone is talking about.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
B6WNQX
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:28 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:26 am

Quoting AirCanada014 (Reply 79):
I would like to see them in UA liveries

You mean like this:


Modified Airliner Photos:
Click here for bigger photo!
Design © Alexander Richardson/ arp design
Template © Alexander Richardson/ arp design



*from modified airliners.

Enjoy!
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:12 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 60):
   Thanks for confirming my point that Rome is a larger market for US airlines.

Define large? You can run leisure fare sales and fill up a plane to Rome, yes.

Milan is the more important market for US business travellers, and that's all that they should care about.

Quoting Scorpy (Reply 63):
I would still think that if they are going to convert a few 763's to international standards, that DEN-LHR would get the nod before ORD-MXP.

United can fill 2 777s a day to LHR from DEN no problem... with decent yields.

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 70):
IAD has two customs areas, one common use area for all carriers and one for UA/Star connecting pax. IAD is likely has the best customs layout for Star Alliance Int'l arriving connections in the U.S.

Yeessss and no. Yes, if you are flying on United and sometimes (usually) Lufthansa you can connect to United, US Airways, and Air Canada domestic or transborder services with the very, very greatest of ease.

If you're flying on SAS, ANA, South African, Austrian, and some other times Lufthansa, you're SOL. You go back to the IAB to make connections to United, Air Canada, or US Airways. That means making your way to the IAB, then waiting to come back through security in the main terminal before heading to your Z, B, or C/D gate. As anyone knows, the non-premium security lines at Dulles during bank checkin times can easily stretch to a small eternity.

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 76):
Maybe UA could do IAD-DEL non-stop especially when AI joins the *A!!!!

United doesn't have any planes that could negotiate the route at this time.

IAD-DEL is a great 787 or A350-800 route. I think there's LOTS of great IAD and SFO routes that are not done today that could be done with the arrival of a new midsize aircraft, even whether that be with said midsize aircraft or with the reallocation of 767s once that plane arrives.

NS
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2269
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:42 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:59 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 87):
If you're flying on SAS, ANA, South African, Austrian, and some other times Lufthansa, you're SOL. You go back to the IAB to make connections to United, Air Canada, or US Airways. That means making your way to the IAB, then waiting to come back through security in the main terminal before heading to your Z, B, or C/D gate. As anyone knows, the non-premium security lines at Dulles during bank checkin times can easily stretch to a small eternity.

I know for sure SK, OS, and LH utilize SA)">UA's Concourse C FIS for connections. I'm not sure, but I believe SA utilizes it now too. NH has been offered the opportunity as well...but I believe SA)">UA does charge the other carriers for usage. It's really a good deal, since SA)">UA books connections as short as 65 min through the "C" FIS. Other carriers can do this also... Shortening connection times increases revenue by a great degree...I can't share exact numbers, but let's just say shaving 5 min off an Int'l conxn time generates millions a year in revenue.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2371
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:35 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 84):
While the 787 is a great plane, it is not the end all and be all for international routes. There are other aircraft that are being sold for international growth including the A330 and 340 family as well as the 777 family.

Noted, but if you read the full post thats not what I was answering was it!. No one more than me would like to see UA order some more 777's for long haul, no way are you going to see A33/40's added.
 
Chugach
Posts: 1374
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:18 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:08 pm

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 52):
I am willing to bet out of every 90 out of every 100 people that live in Hawaii dont know of Alaska Airlines, and do know United Airlines.

No offense, but the good folks at AS aren't banking on Hawaiians making their new HNL and LIH flights work. AS has stated time and time again that their reason for starting SEA-HNL and ANC-HNL is to simply fly where their customers want to go. And the vacation market between the PNW/Alaska and Hawaii is huge, especially in the winter. AS will have no problem filling the proposed three daily 738's to Hawaii, and the massive FF base in ANC/Alaska and the Northwest is icing on the cake.

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 64):

90 out of 100 people in Hawaii? shouldn't we look at the Seattle MSA, the larger end of the route. The state population in Hawaii is about 1.3 million. The population of just the Seattle/Tacoma MSA is over 3.2 million. I think it is more important (and more profitable) to be better known in Seattle, that's the larger population base. Alaska Air dominates Seattle, plus has a much larger feed operation at SEA.

Couldn't have said it better. AS has had Hawaii on the radar for years, and rightly so. Their two most important hubs, SEA and ANC, have sizable numbers of people who spend a considerable amount of time in Hawaii. And believe me, AS is doing more than its fair share of advertising to make Anchorageites and Seattleites well aware of this new service. If ANC/SEA-HNL does as well as the early indicators seem to say it well, I would imagine PDX-HNL won't be far behind, too.
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:58 pm

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 3):
Has the route officially been announced by Lufthansa?



Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 3):
Quoting LHUSA (Reply 2):
I don't see this one happening. UA flew the route in the past and dropped it (which doesn't really mean they won't bring it back) but LH is upgrading thier business jet on ORD-DUS to a 3-cabin A333 this May.

(...)Has the route officially been announced by Lufthansa?

there will be announcement soon, delivering some answers to the route and service quoted above.

Quoting LH506 (Reply 10):
Could it be a possibility that LH and UA coordinate their schedules on DUS-ORD like e.g. UA 3 weekly and LH 4 weekly,

that would make no sense. for example, LH could operate DUS-ORD on days 1,3,5,7, the return trip arriving at DUS on days 1,2,4,6. UA would then operate ORD-DUS on days 2,4,6 (together with LH ORD-DUS on 1,3,5,7 that gives a daily service) whereas the westbound UA flight has to depart on days 3,5,7. this creates duplicate services in the westbound direction, despite daily service on eastbound legs.

Quoting N174UA (Reply 53):
I think the SEA market is covered. Only other flight I could see would be a flight to FRA or MUC.

just a question of time...
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
LH417AF025
Posts: 181
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:56 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 30):
5) Trans-Atlantic services are revenue share with LH, so they have a say also

isn't that only on US/Germany routes?

i find it hard to believe that they share revenue you on for eg IAD-KWI.
 
Glareskin
Posts: 1014
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:35 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting FUN2FLY (Reply 8):
Quoting FLYGUY767 (Thread starter):
Dusseldorf from ORD(a former United Airlines route)

DUS is a tough market to size up. In 2000 CO had DC10 service and UAL had 767 service (approx 400 seats) - both cut post 2001. In theory, could DUS support one carrier's service now - probably. However, since then, CGN has picked up CO 757 and Privitair DUS service as mentioned above. DUS service would be affected by these factors (approx 223 daily seats). If it were plausible, 757 service by DL, CO, US would be the least risky, most economical option.

DUS is one of the largest metro areas in Europe. And don"t forget that UA has the LH partnership advantage. They could use DUS as a sub-hub. So comparison with DL and CO is not in place. US could codeshare through *A.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 52):
Quoting Airlittoralguy (Reply 43):
While combining MXP, LIN and BGY, is Milan not much bigger than FCO + CIA in Rome ? This both for cargo and pax figures . In fact, is Milan not one of Europe's top 5 metro market ??

MILANO
BGY, MXP, LIN = 36, 000, 000 Pax per year

ROMA
FCO, CIA = 34, 950, 000 Pax per year

SELECT EUROPEAN METRO MARKETS

London 13,000, 000
Moscow 12, 622, 000
Paris, 12, 000, 000
Dusseldorf 10, 000, 000
**Milan 7, 400, 000
Amsterdam 6, 700, 000
Madrid 5, 561, 000
**Naples 4, 200, 000
Berlin 4, 900, 000
Athens 3, 800, 000
**Rome 2, 700, 000
Munich 2, 610, 000
**Turin 2, 200, 000
Vienna 2, 200, 000
Brussels 2, 090, 000
Hamburg 1, 755, 000
Barcelona 1, 605, 000
Marseille 1, 605, 000
**Padua-Venice 1, 600, 000
Frankfurt 1, 468, 000
Seville 1, 415, 000
Zurich 1, 010, 000

** - Italian Cities

Very good. Thank you!
There's still a long way to go before all the alliances deserve a star...
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 25403
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:13 am

Quoting LH417AF025 (Reply 92):
isn't that only on US/Germany routes?

i find it hard to believe that they share revenue you on for eg IAD-KWI.

No. Under phase three of the UA-LH "Atlantic Alliance" the agreement which was initially signed back in 1993, covers all trans-atlantic flights with an operational sphere West of Calcutta India operated by either party.

Atlantic revenues less certain operating cost are shared. Really a good and novel deal for both carriers, allowing them to sell each others networks blindly knowing they still are getting revenue from it.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
LH417AF025
Posts: 181
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:56 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:07 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 94):
No. Under phase three of the UA-LH "Atlantic Alliance" the agreement which was initially signed back in 1993, covers all trans-atlantic flights with an operational sphere West of Calcutta India operated by either party.

oh ok. so therefore, if the flight stops in MUC or FRA and continues onto a third airport on LH metal.. does this mean that UA and LH still share the revenue for that portion as well?

basically if its trans atlantic, doesn't pass calcutta, doesn't matter where its going and with how many stops, if its on UA/LH..... the revenue is shared?
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 25403
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:51 am

Quoting LH417AF025 (Reply 95):
does this mean that UA and LH still share the revenue for that portion as well?

Depends if the beyond destination is a code-share city/flight.

Quoting LH417AF025 (Reply 95):
basically if its trans atlantic, doesn't pass calcutta, doesn't matter where its going and with how many stops, if its on UA/LH..... the revenue is shared?

Depends on how you define "stops" as that can change under what portion of the UA-LH agreement the flying and its revenue would be covered under.

Previous phases initially covered US-Germany and some intra Europe flying particularly LHR-Germany which was then expanded to cover domestic US(and beyond to Carrib, Latin America) and German flights along with beyond services to Africa, Middle East, India, and remaining portions of Europe, before the much broader current agreement.

Remember the UA-LH relationship is guides under basically three agreements.
1 - Typical bilateral code-shares
2 - Atlantic Alliance (which includes Antitrust Immunity)
3 - Greater Star Alliance Antitrust Immunity
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
sshank
Posts: 297
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:58 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:11 am

Lax, for example - would UA and LH share revenue on say the LH FRA-BOM flight or just on the seats that are booked with UA code? General speculation is that the reason UA does not fly to India is that the LH revenue share agreement gives them a piece of the action anyway and there is no real incentive (or perhaps the rev share agreement is contingent on UA not flying to India).

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 96):
Depends on how you define "stops" as that can change under what portion of the UA-LH agreement the flying and its revenue would be covered under.

Previous phases initially covered US-Germany and some intra Europe flying particularly LHR-Germany which was then expanded to cover domestic US(and beyond to Carrib, Latin America) and German flights along with beyond services to Africa, Middle East, India, and remaining portions of Europe, before the much broader current agreement.

Remember the UA-LH relationship is guides under basically three agreements.
1 - Typical bilateral code-shares
2 - Atlantic Alliance (which includes Antitrust Immunity)
3 - Greater Star Alliance Antitrust Immunity
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 25403
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:52 am

Quoting Sshank (Reply 97):
Lax, for example - would UA and LH share revenue on say the LH FRA-BOM flight or just on the seats that are booked with UA code?

UA definately gets revenue slice on the FRA-BOM segment as their is a UA codeshare on the flight anyhow.

But, as far as the Atlantic Alliance goes, Indian sub-continent (Calcutta and points West) flying was covered since phase-2 (circa '96/97'ish). There are specific provisions for such connecting through fare intercontinental services from the US/Canada/Mexico via Germany. Without getting into the nitty grity details, a proration formula is followed for revenue split regardless of the airline designator code, or flight number that appears on the ticket.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
flyb
Posts: 558
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:39 am

RE: United Airlines Growth Rumor

Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:53 am

one of my contacts based in Chicago said that YEG should be seeing UA enter that market on the DEN ORD routes (currently operated by United Express). There has been a lot of juggling of aircraft and companies handling those routes in the past 4 years. (Air Wisconsin, Skywest and Shuttle America). My guess would be May 2008.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos