Delta Crew Goes Beyond The Call Of Duty...

Bohlman · Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:07 pm

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 12):
Happens all the time here at WN though everyone still acts as if we're the crap of the skies.

Glad to see other carriers have such spirit and dedication!

I was in Chicago a few months ago during the transfer to the new pilot base, and while I was talking with a couple of the chiefs in the old base, we heard that an A/C was going to have a late push due to bags, so we went outside to help speed up the bag loading process so that the A/C could leave as quickly as possible. Not many airlines out there with CPs that are willing to throw bags.

Quoting B777ER (Reply 46):

Your not the crap of the skies but most of your pax are the crap of the skies.

I would say you've rarely been on one of our flights. A high percentage of our travelers are business travelers. Just because you make more money than somebody who could only afford a WN fare doesn't mean that you shouldn't benefit from low prices too. I don't know if you were aware, but at this point you get better free food (unlimited drinks and snacks, with larger snack packs on longer flights), better pitch than most US domestic economy classes, and certainly better service than most US airlines out there. While WN isn't always the cheapest fare out there, it's certainly extremely close and the product that you are getting is much more consistent than most of the other US airlines out there (most, not all).

It never ceases to amaze me how many people seem to think that because WN is inexpensive, it's the WalMart of the skies.

EDIT:
It also disappoints me that somebody would judge another person to be "Crap" just because they happened to choose a less expensive fare.

[Edited 2007-08-13 07:09:10]

smcmac32msn · Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:21 pm

Quoting CALeeIII (Thread starter):
Delta Crew Goes Beyond The Call Of Duty...

When I saw this I thought that a crew made a effort to not have somebody forcibly removed for sneezing, and the flight attendant staying sober for the whole flight. duck

On a serious note, thats a great job by the crew to do that. Wish more crews helped out with such things.

APFPilot1985 · Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:26 pm

Awesome job by the pilots, as a Ramper there are few things that make you feel better then when a pilot helps with the bags. In particular an EV pilot helped my crew one day when it was 100 plus out side and smiled and joked the whole time.

However, 'm sure this is happening because Dl's rampers in ATL suck.

B777ER · Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:40 pm

Quoting Bohlman (Reply 50):
It never ceases to amaze me how many people seem to think that because WN is inexpensive, it's the WalMart of the skies.

That show on A&E did your company no good. Every time I was able to catch an episode it looked like a trailer park at the gate sitting area or people that must have slept next to a dumpster the night before, damn near every flight oversold, CSA's having to come onboard pleading for volunteers, etc.....
While I am sure WN has a decent product, its not my style...I prefer F on DL when I travel. Great service, great legroom and no bloody singing and or corny joke telling FA's that resemble the scene down at the local pub whilst watching a bad lounge act.
I will give you this though....many pilots really think you guys have one hell of a contract ranking right up there with the package drivers at UPS.

[Edited 2007-08-13 07:43:29]

andrewuber · Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:41 pm

As a former DL ramper / ops agent in BHM, I must say great job Delta, and long live the Widget. It's great to see people pitching in and helping others. bigthumbsup

apollo13 · Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:07 pm

Its nice to see all aspects of a company pulling it together to achieve a common goal. Not only did they have their intentions towards passengers but to fellow crew members as well. When everyone helps. Everyone wins.

57AZ · Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:13 pm

Quoting Bohlman (Reply 50):
I would say you've rarely been on one of our flights. A high percentage of our travelers are business travelers.

I agree. On all the WN flights I have taken, I have noted that many of the passengers were travelling on business. Furthermore, while the in flight service was basic, it was consistant and the flights generally came and went on time. As for "Airline" on A&E, I'm actually impressed. Most airlines don't want the public to know what goes on behind the scenes-WN shows that it has faith in the judgement of it's agents and that they follow company practice to the greatest degree humanly possible. Way to go WN!

Spoke2Spoke · Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:08 pm

Great job Delta! I also love to see this type of teamwork.

Although we are highlighting here a situation where the ground staff appears to have been caught short handed, which I would agree with other posters is happening with a lot more frequency lately in the industry.

In a work environment where there are so many variables the carriers cannot control, why do they allow the easily controllable staffing variable to cause issues? Poor management and planning are to blame in my opinion.

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 6):
Tilton or Parker do not get, nor do they deserve, employees like this.

Incorrect. They're at these two and all airlines. I'm not sure these or any carriers have enough of them. I won't go near the question of if these leaders deserve them or not. Their customers and shareholders certainly do.

LHR777 · Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:14 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 48):
No, they are not.

Thanks for answering my question. perhaps they should be?

Quoting Greg3322 (Reply 43):
First, congrats to these Delta employees for going above and beyond. I have to laugh at all the negativity and suspicion, though. This goes to show how accustomed we have become with the poor level of customer service in the air travel industry.

No Greg, I wasn't being negative or 'suspicious', I was merely concerned for their safety, and thus asked a legitimate question, which Mir kindly answered for me. I still applaud their actions, but concern for ramp safety remains.

hazmat · Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:16 pm

IT'S ALSO A HUGE VIOLATION OF UNION REGULATIONS !

Delta pilots are ALPA and they know better than to encroach on another work group's job description and duties. Just because the Rampers at Delta may not be unionized doesn't make this practice acceptable. If you have an operation which is short staffed to the point that other work groups who are neither trained nor equipted for a certain task are performing that task none the less, you create hazardous situations. Plus, if other work groups are filling the voids, where is the incentive for the management to properly staff the operation?

I understand that the flying public sees this as a great effort by Delta's employees, but there are many other very complicated factors to be considered in this particular picture.

WNCrew · Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:18 pm

Quoting Bohlman (Reply 50):
It also disappoints me that somebody would judge another person to be "Crap" just because they happened to choose a less expensive fare.

Thank you for saying that, some people can't, or refuse to, see beyond the end of their own nose.

We live in a society where everyone NEEDS recognition, they NEED to know that in our class system they ARE distinguishable and lets face it, who doesn't like to be sitting on the front side of that blue curtain? Truth be told though, having worked for other airlines, our pax are NO different! You film ANY carrier 24/7 and you'll see the same stuff, and in first class too. It's just easy to make fun of SWA because we make no bones about being friendly and simple, plus everyone makes fun of us...so it's popular.

In the end though MOST of our travelers are business travelers! We have great pitch 33", serve unlimited drinks (we do it by hand), serve more complimentary snacks than anyone, we still have pillows/blankets, magazines, and our crews are VERY hard working! All that and we do it whilst being on time!

NOW, Back to the thread, it's a great picture, wonderful to see that people are pitching in for the better of the customer, hopefully this means the employees at DL are feeling better about their situations and are genuinely ready to join forces again with their employee in creating what was once a very famous recognizable brand!

UAL777UK · Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:25 pm

Whilst I Commend these people for what they did to get the flight off the ground, I just wonder what would happen if say this girl had got injured on the ramp, whether it be by just straing herself humping all those bags or through something else. If she is not supposed to be there, I wonder if she is infact placing herself in a precarious position.

zippyjet · Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:33 pm

To our thread starter:
Kudos and thanks for acknowledging their hard work and dedication in the torrid heat. We may not admit it, but when you work in our industry you are part of a large albeit dysfunctional family. In regard to where was the ramp crew.
Chances are, they were busting ass working like cooleys in the killer heat. Especially during this the Summer from Hell. With the heavy flight loads, congestion and shitty weather, we are all working 110% in making sure we deliver a timley,safe and positive flying experience. I work as a gate agent with FL and when we can we help out the ramp and they've gone to bat for us many a time. Pushes this summer our intense with all the flights coming and going at the same time. Hats off to my fellow airline crew members. We've sweated and hustled through one m-f'er of a summer. I know when we cross the threshold of post Labor Day, I will appreciate things that much more even though the summer heat and humidity will not release it's sultry grip in Baltimore until the second week of October. It's just, that our loads will settle down, the UMNR's will be back in school or wherever they hang out these days when they are not flying. We'll still have plenty of thunderstorms, ATC delays and diversions but, that goes with the territory.

sushka · Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:23 pm

Yeah I did it before too when we were in a hurry one time in JFK

bucky707 · Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:08 pm

Quoting Hazmat (Reply 59):
IT'S ALSO A HUGE VIOLATION OF UNION REGULATIONS !

Delta pilots are ALPA and they know better than to encroach on another work group's job description and duties.

Wrong. There is nothing in our contract which prevents us from helping out in any area. Further, because the rest of the airline is non union there is no contract of other employees to encroach upon. I have helped out in other areas before and I will help out again if that's what it takes keep my airline on top.

tb727 · Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:12 pm

Quoting Hazmat (Reply 59):
IT'S ALSO A HUGE VIOLATION OF UNION REGULATIONS !

Delta pilots are ALPA and they know better than to encroach on another work group's job description and duties. Just because the Rampers at Delta may not be unionized doesn't make this practice acceptable. If you have an operation which is short staffed to the point that other work groups who are neither trained nor equipted for a certain task are performing that task none the less, you create hazardous situations. Plus, if other work groups are filling the voids, where is the incentive for the management to properly staff the operation?

I understand that the flying public sees this as a great effort by Delta's employees, but there are many other very complicated factors to be considered in this particular picture.

You know, that's the problem with this country, people are never willing to go above and beyond, many would rather stand by and watch because it's "not their job". Unions were started to protect the safety of workers, not to make less work and more pay like it has morphed into over the last few decades. It killed the US auto industry and if everyone thought like HAZMAT, it would kill the airline industry. Good job to the Delta pilots for keeping things moving but in a lot of other cultures, they would just be doing the right thing and there wouldn't even be a thread on this.

aauzou · Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:19 pm

All I can say is congrats to the Delta crew,

maybe the crew was about to become illegal, haha

Regards
760611

InnocuousFox · Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:21 pm

Quoting WNCrew (Reply 12):
Happens all the time here at WN though everyone still acts as if we're the crap of the skies.

Yep... I was going to point this out. This has been a common part of WN culture since the beginning. The point is, "get it done". You will see it from all different types of employees. It's funny that this thread makes such a big deal out of this when it's really a combination of common sense and a drive to make the company work better both financially and from a customer service standpoint.

Quoting Tb727 (Reply 65):
You know, that's the problem with this country, people are never willing to go above and beyond, many would rather stand by and watch because it's "not their job".

Union-sponsored arrogance and laziness. After all, you get paid either way since you have used extortion tactics on your employer, right?

AA787823 · Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:34 pm

I cannot believe they did not get MAJOR heat from the rampers union. If ANYONE at AA did that they would get a Form 1 so fast and be in the hot seat you would not know what the hell hit you.

richierich · Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:46 pm

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 8):
Wow, they definatly went above and beyond the call of duty. It is these kind of stories I wish we heard more. It is all too often that all we hear about are the negitives, which tend to sometimes give the whole company bad press.

Way to go Delta!!!!

While the cynical side of me wonders why it was necessary for the Captain, FO and gate agent to be on the ramp loading bags in the first place, I have to admit that I am much more impressed by the passion for getting the job done, no matter what it takes.

It is very refreshing to hear stories like this - kudos to that crew!

bucky707 · Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 68):
I cannot believe they did not get MAJOR heat from the rampers union

Only the pilots and dispatchers are union at Delta.

itsnotfinals · Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 58):
Thanks for answering my question. perhaps they should be?

Not only are they not required they do not exist in the US. No airport uses those lime green jackets on the ramp and yet the safety of ground workers is the same or better than European airports, I always enjoy seeing everyone looking so fashionable though when I am europe Smile

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 68):
I cannot believe they did not get MAJOR heat from the rampers union. If ANYONE at AA did that they would get a Form 1 so fast and be in the hot seat you would not know what the hell hit you

Well if someone does their job correctly in the first place then there is no need to get schooled by the pilots helping you. Union are a joke when it comes to this type of attitude.

ltbewr · Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:02 am

Perhaps too, this meant that their flight got out on time with the tight time windows at ATL, so didn't trigger other delays, or a domino effect for the later flights of the crew. They probably believed that if they were late out of ATL, they could duty time out later in the day and get stuck away from their home base, especially if common bad summer storms were predicted in their routes during the day. It is a nice touch, although they did put themselves at risk of injury with it own set of problems.

deltagator · Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:14 am

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 68):
I cannot believe they did not get MAJOR heat from the rampers union.

Well there isn't a ramper's union at DL so no heat other than the normal August sun in Georgia.

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 68):
If ANYONE at AA did that they would get a Form 1 so fast and be in the hot seat you would not know what the hell hit you.

Sure, let's fill out an assload of paperwork and waste time with union grievance hearings versus getting the job done and making the customer happy. sarcastic

Maybe I'm just different but I do whatever it takes to get the job done for my clients and if that means I ruffle feathers now and then (union or not) I don't care as long as my clients get taken care of well. The same should go for airlines as long as it doesn't endanger safety. A captain and first officer helping with the bag loading isn't going to take away the job from a union brother. If the ramp was backed up for whatever reason and the pilots and gate agent helped out to keep them on time and free up the gate for an arriving flight then I say more power to them and the rampers shouldn't be offended or feel like someone is encroaching on their job.

And please don't quote me the union mantra of we do the job better and safer. I've seen bags get loaded every flight I take and hardly ever do I notice the rampers using so called "proper" lifting technique. It's usually more of a grab and throw versus lifting properly and bending at the knees.

airtran717 · Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:19 am

Quoting CALeeIII (Thread starter):
1) too hot for the ground crew or 2) time for their break? I

Time for a break? Come on, was that really called for?

airtran717 · Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 37):
Can they get in trouble for doing this? Could the Ramper's Union file a greviance against the Pilots and GA's for this?

You know? All this talk of union violations and such... it's all important. But sometimes teamwork and the sake of getting the job done is what should be focused on and not the ramifications. I mean, they were doing more than they were ever required to. Who cares about the ramper's union in this case? They were not available for one reason or another and the plane would have been late. Kudos to them for getting the job done.

AA787823 · Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 73):
Sure, let's fill out an assload of paperwork and waste time with union grievance hearings versus getting the job done and making the customer happy.

A. It would be a no brainer, the company would not win this grievance, and it would be a wast of time going to arbitration. The union would win.

B. The union could give a crap less about the customer. Bottom line you cannot do union work if you are not a union member in the same title group work category.

airtran717 · Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 64):
Delta pilots are ALPA and they know better than to encroach on another work group's job description and duties.

If that said workgroup isn't doing it, would you rather take a delay or leave on time. If they aren't doing their jobs, someone has to.

airtran717 · Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:38 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 71):
Well if someone does their job correctly in the first place then there is no need to get schooled by the pilots helping you. Union are a joke when it comes to this type of attitude.

I couldn't agree more and I WAS union with FL. We're all doing a job, as a team. This union "them and us" mentality makes me sick.... the unions should be fighting the companies and not with each other or their co-work groups.

Indio66 · Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:10 am

I am not surprised by this, Delta is a good airline that is gettting better and better. I have been pleasantly surprised by the quality of my Delta flights within the last year or so. If you have not flown them in a while, give them a try and you will see.

deltagator · Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:21 am

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 76):
A. It would be a no brainer, the company would not win this grievance, and it would be a wast of time going to arbitration. The union would win.

Well luckily there is no ramper's union at DL to worry about so the job got done and the plane was able to leave on time.

Quoting AA787823 (Reply 76):
The union could give a crap less about the customer.

And therein lies the problem. Hmm....no wonder I'm not a fan of unions. Servicing the customer and making them happy even it it requires a little bit more work or initiative on my part....or making sure I take my prescribed breaks at 8, 10, and 12 and not doing work above and beyond anything in my job description.

I know as a customer which one I prefer. I know as a businessman what I must do to retain business. I guess the unions just don't get it.

riyadhnurse · Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:29 am

Excellent example of what all of us should be doing,no matter what our job description is.Good going Delta ! bigthumbsup

contrails · Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:35 am

Quoting Ryanrap1 (Reply 1):
Awesome JOB DELTA CREW!

I second that thought. If any DL management-types are reading this, those employees deserve a commendation.

What a great picture.

Max Q · Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:19 am

Well if they had been hurt 'helping out the company' I wonder what the company would have said if they could not operate that leg due to an injury ?

Sometimes being a 'hero' is not that clever..

Pope · Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting Hazmat (Reply 59):
IT'S ALSO A HUGE VIOLATION OF UNION REGULATIONS !

Just to show that no good deed goes unpunished, it might also be a huge violation of the DOT's hazardous material transportation rules. If the pilots had not received or been retrained on the function specific regulations applicable to the function of loading they and their employer might be subject to huge civil and criminal penalties.

Remember, all it takes is one small screw up for a dangerous cargo to bring down a plane.

I applaud the effort of the crew and their willingness to help out but procedures are written for a reason.

LINATE · Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:27 am

I have been flying DL very often lately and I must say I am very proud of their attitude towards customers. I have been so well treated by their employees. Very nice indeed. I almost forget that I am flying with an US carrier...

micstatic · Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:37 am

Quoting Hazmat (Reply 59):
IT'S ALSO A HUGE VIOLATION OF UNION REGULATIONS

I know somebody has already addressed your post. But I must say, it's attitudes like this that hurt good companies with good people. Kudos to that crew!

CanadianNorth · Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:57 am

Hats off to the crew.

At Air North we often do this sort of thing, and I believe that it's makes a huge difference in an airline being a good one or a bad one. Plus it's just more fun when you can do some kitchen stuff, go groom a plane, then unload cargo all in one shift.

CanadianNorth

DLPMMM · Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:00 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 83):
Well if they had been hurt 'helping out the company' I wonder what the company would have said if they could not operate that leg due to an injury ?

Sometimes being a 'hero' is not that clever..

Sometimes being an obstructionist is not that cleaver either.

For yourself and a few others that asked either explicitly or implicitly earlier, any injury would have been covered under DL's workman's compensation program without question. I also highly doubt that these particular employees have chronic back problems, or else they would not have volenteered to help.

What if the pilot choked on a chicken finger and was unable to fly the next leg?

Anyone can play the "what if" game.

Well done to the particular DL

Goldenshield · Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 84):
Just to show that no good deed goes unpunished, it might also be a huge violation of the DOT's hazardous material transportation rules. If the pilots had not received or been retrained on the function specific regulations applicable to the function of loading they and their employer might be subject to huge civil and criminal penalties.

Delta is one of the few carriers that still transports HAZMAT knowingly, so, of course, the pilots know HAZMAT regulations. Anyhow, even if a carrier DOESN'T carry HAZMAT, everyone involved with the operation is still required to know about the regulations because of what passengers try to carry on board.

airtran717 · Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:37 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 84):
Just to show that no good deed goes unpunished, it might also be a huge violation of the DOT's hazardous material transportation rules. If the pilots had not received or been retrained on the function specific regulations applicable to the function of loading they and their employer might be subject to huge civil and criminal penalties.

Remember, all it takes is one small screw up for a dangerous cargo to bring down a plane.

I applaud the effort of the crew and their willingness to help out but procedures are written for a reason

We all get yearly recurrent training.

FlyPNS1 · Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:37 am

I have to give kudos to the crew for helping out. Not that this is all that uncommon. In the past, I often have seen ASA pilots doing this because of the problems ASA had with ground crews in ATL.

With all that said, the only problem I have with pilots helping out is that it could be masking greater problems. Many of the legacies have cut ground staffing to the bones and it is starting to blow up in their faces. Relying on pilots or other crew to pick up the slack is not a long-term solution.

runga08 · Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting Hazmat (Reply 59):
complicated factors

Stupid union regulations. Not that Airlines are free of fault, but this is just another case of "How America Lost its Common Sense".

malaysia · Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:41 am

They are probably just offloading and helping quickly to get the crew bags Smile

thats what most do. when they are in a hurry, so they come down and help till they can get their bags.

MD11Engineer · Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:49 am

While I don't have a problem lending a hand in loading, fueling or even herding passengers to the arrival gate, I think in the case mentioned by JetJeanes the pilots (and the loadmaster) can be lucky that nobody of the FAA saw them, else they would have had a hard time keeping their licences:

Quoting JetJeanes (Reply 36):
We had some cargo door pins sheered on a freighter one night and he had an hour flight to the hub., The capt grabbed two ratchet staps clipped them in the door and ran the other to the floor tracks...and ratched the door tight, and said

This is in no case an approved repair as per AMM, SRM or even a temporary repair as per MEL. Also, neither the pilots nor the loadmaster are (in most cases) certifying mechanics / engineers, so they can not by law make a decision if some jury rigged "repair" is airworthy. The FAA and EASA see these things very narrowly.

Jan

TheCol · Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:51 am

Kudos to the crew members of that flight. They could of easily waited the delay out, like most do, and no one would have thought any less of them for it. Personally, I am always surprised when the crew help the ramp crew out. Heck I've seen airline pilots help unload or load bags with a full ground crew on hand. Usually something like that is a huge morale boost for the ramp crew, since a lot of pilots are quite difficult to deal with.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 20):

That would be my guess as well.

Pope · Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:04 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 89):
Delta is one of the few carriers that still transports HAZMAT knowingly, so, of course, the pilots know HAZMAT regulations. Anyhow, even if a carrier DOESN'T carry HAZMAT, everyone involved with the operation is still required to know about the regulations because of what passengers try to carry on board.

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 90):
We all get yearly recurrent training.

Look at 49 CFR Sect 172.702(a). Unless the training covers the specific job functions of cargo loading, the fact that generalized training was received may not be appropriate. I have no idea what the scope of DL's pilots hazmat training is, but if it doesn't cover the specific job function of a cargo loader, a rule may have been broken.

Goldenshield · Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:23 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 96):
I have no idea what the scope of DL's pilots hazmat training is, but if it doesn't cover the specific job function of a cargo loader, a rule may have been broken.

If a captain has to sign and verify a NOTAC, then he better know how the hell HAZMAT is to be loaded.

LHR777 · Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 71):
safety of ground workers is the same or better than European airports

How do you work that out? We're always hearing via A.net of various rampers in the US being killed in the line of duty, either by being run-over (hi-vis might help) or struck by another vehicle (hi-vis, anyone?) or crushed between a belt-loader and the aircraft. (No hi-vis is going to work in this situation).

So, out of interest, how do you determine that the safety of ground workers in the US is the same or better than European airports?

Oh, they're yellow, not lime green, which would be just be gross!

[Edited 2007-08-14 00:18:45]

Bicoastal · Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 6):
Tilton or Parker do not get, nor do they deserve, employees like this

Oh, puke. There are United employees who go above and beyond the call of duty each and every day. And, there are Delta employees who wouldn't go above and beyond the call of duty if their life depended on it. Kudos to the Delta employees in this thread, but all airlines have similar employees. Airlines would sink without them.

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