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kaitak
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Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:04 am

Good evening folks and welcome to our third thread for this month - and what a month it's turning out to be, even though we're barely half way through it! Heaven knows what Irish aviation will look like by the time we reach September!

We've seen some pretty interesting developments today too, with MO'L's (no doubt much welcome!) involvement and his forcing an Aer Lingus AGM. That's going to cause quite a bit of consternation at a political level, which is probably no bad thing. We know that there's one thing this government dislikes more than almost anything else and that's to be forced into taking a stance on aviation policy.

The EI pilots' strike is, of course, causing a lot of debate, particularly - as you'll expect - on PPRUNE. This evening, IBEC has attacked IALPA, calling it a self-centred move by the highest paid group in EI. Aer Lingus is apparently taking a "no negotiations" stance, so it remains to see how this will be worked out. Hopefully talks will achieve something, but no sign of these yet.

And then we have Cityjet, Etihad and others, so there's no such thing as a slow news day in Irish aviation anymore, Summer hols or not!

OK, folks, over to you! I know there's a lot of passionate views out there, from north, south, east and west; we may not have a single island economy yet, but we do have a single Irish aviation thread, so please - let's keep it pleasant, friendly and respectful to all.
 
kaitak
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:44 am

There's an interesting "potted history" of the SNN-LHR route at the back of this month's Irish Air Letter, which might be interesting to share; I knew the route had gone a long way back, but I wasn't quite sure how far. Shannon - London was, ironically, first operated sixty years ago this month, starting on the 1st August 1947, operated with Vickers Vikings, with flights originating in DUB.

EI had quite a bit of expansion - overambitious, as it turned out - in/around 1947/48 and had to cut back, so this was one route which was cut; legend has it that Dr. Garret Fitzgerald, then an economic planner with the airline, persuaded mgmt to cut SNN-LBG after no pax had been carried for two weeks.

The SNN-LHR route didn't operate at all during the fifties and it was only in May 1960 that it was reintroduced, with Viscounts. Over the years, it was gradually built up and by the early 70s, there were 737-200 flights, plus 4 wkly 707s, which operated JFK-SNN-LHR.
 
tonymctigue
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 1):

Interesting bit of history there Kaitak. Thank you for sharing.

This SNN-LHR thingy just doesn't seem to go away & now that MOL has called an EGM, it means not that the government will actually have to give a straight yes or no answer for once. I would love to be a fly on the wall at that meeting. If I had the cash to spare, I would buy EI shares right now just so I could be there. This talk of an EI boycott by people in the MidWest is very shortsighted & just pure stupid. If the people of the Midwest want EI to stay, they have to fly with them. It can't be made any clearer than that. Hopefully this is just a reflex reaction & that common sense will prevail. I have to admit that my first reaction to the rumours was "well if that's they way they are going to do it then I'll never fly with them again" but it didn't take me long to see sense. I'm sure that once the initial shock passes people will realise that this will do more harm than good.

Anyway, this EGM should be very interesting. The government will need to take a definite stance on the whole SNN issue unless of course, they abstain from voting. This is someting that I believe is quite likely to happen. They could use the argument that they do not want to make enemies with Ian Paisly by voting in favour of the SNN lobby after spending so long trying to gain his trust while at the same time not making enemies on the West coast either (not that I believe the SNN lobby will buy this argument but it wouldn't surprise me if ND tried it). This put me wondering, if the government do not use their vote, could MOL, backed by trade unions & the ESOT, have enough votes to block the decision? Certainly the pilots & the ESOT could threaten to use their shares to block the BFS move if they don't get what they want for new staff at BFS. I think EI really underestimated the backlash from both of these decisions. It seems a bit odd though that trade unions are going on strike on behalf of employees that haven't even been hired yet! You can be sure if the unions get what they want then the hats will be out looking for unions dues from those new employees as soon as they are hired.
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
EI787
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:11 am

I've just noticed on the FR website that they are starting flights to TFS on October 19th. They already fly to TFN. Are they changing airports or do they intend to keep up flights to both airports?
 
EISHN
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:20 am

Quoting EI787 (Reply 3):
I've just noticed on the FR website that they are starting flights to TFS on October 19th. They already fly to TFN. Are they changing airports or do they intend to keep up flights to both airports?

They are changing airports, apparently because passengers prefer flying to the sounthern airport, closer to all of the action on the island.

Did anyone see the 6 One news? It showed O'Leary walking into the Great Southern Hotel at SNN. Only he wasn't walking. He was skipping and clapping his heels in mid air, in typical O'Leary fashion juts for the cameras.. He just ended up looking like a fucking eejit on T.V.!
 
EIDAA
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:24 am

Thanks for launching another one of these great threads Kaitak... let's see what news this one brings us!

Unfortunately I first need to carry forward some items from the previous thread as I want to have a chance to reply to certain comments made about me and my opinions, (I believe the word laughable was even used). In the time I have been on these forums I don't think I have insulted anyone directly, most certainly not intentionally, and now want the chance to stand up for myself. I hope fellow members will understand and not attack me for taking this off message so early on.

Poitin, we have come across each other before and I have backed away from debates because of your history with other members and heated discussions, but not on this occasion sir.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 234):
Ah, yes. What part of Dublin do you live in? I think you should get out and spend sometime west of Co Meath.

Blackrock actually, now working in Dun Laoghaire. I lived not too far from Blanchardstown until I was four, then left Dublin until my parents moved back while I was at university in 2000. From then on, Dublin became home again for the summers and following graduation I have lived in Lucan, Clontarf and now Blackrock. Need anything else to confirm that I am based in Dublin?

Regarding the Meath comment, I will go a little further than Rineanna's classic...

Quoting Rineanna (Reply 241):
Oh for the love of God.  Yeah sure

...only to say that if you had actually read the text in my post you were commenting on, you would have seen the following...

Quoting EIDAA (Reply 211):
I'm a Jackeen, my dad is from Donegal, I have uncle/aunts in Cork, I lived in Clonmel for a few years in good old Co Tipp, was raised in Galway for about nine or ten years and ended up going to University for four years in Limerick...

If I add that I am now 24, does 17 years living outside Dublin count for anything? If you could just let me know if it doesn't and therefore what I would need to do to be classed as an acceptable blow in when I visit friends and family around the country... that would be much appreciated.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 234):
I have no idea why you are surprised, but perhaps the people you talk to in the west know where you are from and so don't say anything.

Did I actually say that I was surprised? I don't think I did. I simply said that I thought the situation was being blown out of proportion and that introducing bishops, PPs etc was OTT. That's all. Oh and I am sure you are right that given the fact that I am from Dublin, friends and family won't open up to me. That makes perfect sense.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 234):
You sound just like Marie Antoinette when she said "If the people have no bread, let them eat cake."

Ok, that's your call.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 234):
However, if you do come west of Co Meath, leave your Dublin car plates behind and speak slower. I have a Cavan accent and so people know I am an Ulsterman. But I speak slowly and I never drive a car with a "D" in it.

a) See above re venturing west of Meath
b) I do actually have a "D" plate on my car, which itself is rarely used - I just go by bus when I am brave enough to venture down the N7, N6...
c) Have you ever heard my voice? Everyone is always surprised when I say I'm from Dublin... I can do a mean Dublin accent though... along with a pretty decent Limerick one...
d) That is your choice to never drive a "D" car

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 238):
I'm actually highly insulted.

Join the club. It's getting bigger.

Quoting Rineanna (Reply 241):
Well, this is certainly news to me (as it apparently seems to be to others also). I've lived in the west all my life without exception, and can honestly say that I have never heard of, witnessed or indeed partaken in any of this supposed resentment towards 'Jackeens'.

Thanks Rineanna, your comment reflects what I would class as the normal feeling towards Dubliners that I have come across throughout Ireland.

Anyway, again guys, I'm sorry for dragging this up from the last thread, I'm sure some of you would prefer it had died in the last one but I think everyone should be allowed to respond to such posts.

Thanks and regards
Andrew
Most Flown:- G-BUVA (20 Flights), EI-DEB (12 Flights), EI-JFK (11 Flights)
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:31 am

Quoting EISHN (Reply 4):
Did anyone see the 6 One news? It showed O'Leary walking into the Great Southern Hotel at SNN. Only he wasn't walking. He was skipping and clapping his heels in mid air, in typical O'Leary fashion juts for the cameras.. He just ended up looking like a fucking eejit on T.V.!

Yeah I saw him on RTE.ie it would have made my day if he slipped and made a bigger fool out of himself but that would probably get him more press coverage!
 
EI787
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviati

Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:50 am

Quoting EISHN (Reply 4):
They are changing airports, apparently because passengers prefer flying to the sounthern airport, closer to all of the action on the island.

Ah I see. I remember when first launched, there was a bit of confusion whether they were to fly to TFN or TFS. I think it's for the best that they fly to the Southern airport - it's certainly better located from a tourist point of view. God, Ryanair are actually willing to fly to a more centrally located airport!!  Wow! Big grin
 
rineanna
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:01 am

It's reported on an article in the Air Asia thread that they are to operate a former EI A333; is that EI-SHN they're talking about, or will it be the A333 retired in '09 I wonder?

Quoting EI787 (Reply 7):
Ryanair are actually willing to fly to a more centrally located airport!!

MOL's full of surprises...threaten to sell slots at LHR, then kick up a fuss over SNN-LHR debacle, fly to TFS over TFN, the list goes on and on.....!

Didn't it say on the article about switching airports (was it posted on here?) that it was due to customer's requests? Since when has that mattered?!! I'd love to know the different costs associated with operating to these airports, and the increase in costs associated with the move.

Edit: On secong thoughts, the Air Asia aircraft in question will be introduced in September so it must be EI-SHN.

[Edited 2007-08-14 22:06:27]
 
BrianDromey
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:01 am

Quoting EIDAA (Reply 5):


Anyway, again guys, I'm sorry for dragging this up from the last thread, I'm sure some of you would prefer it had died in the last one but I think everyone should be allowed to respond to such posts.

EIDAA, I would take no notice. Seriously, from someone who has been there!

Im from Cork and I dont see this as a dublin issue at all. A company has made a decision to move operations from SNN to BFS, how is DUB involved at all??? (apart from the company being based in DUB)

I do think you have a fair point though, the story is getting old. I also think the FR thing is very dangerous precident. I think IMPACT and SIPTU know this as well. It is interesting that the unions have not been more vocal on the possible job losses. Of course, there is the possibility of large golden handshakes and other incentives.

I am concerned about the way EI management have handled this situation though, perticlarly with respect to te employees. I hope that morlae is not broken down again, and that the pilots see sense. BFS captains starting salaries begin at 113000 EUR per anum. Its hardly a paupers wage, now, is it?

Brian.
 
EISHN
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:11 am

When was the last time (year) where EI hasn't had a strike of any kind. there were some last year over the selling of the company, and I believe some more the year before. We all know that there were many in '99, '00, '01, and '02, but what about '03 and '04?
 
pilot21
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:17 am

Quoting EIDAA (Reply 5):
I hope fellow members will understand and not attack me for taking this off message so early on.

No problem with the response EIDAA, although is it quite amusing that the very person pointing fingers at the 'Dublin bandits' on the last thread is actually based in California. Anyway moving on!

Quoting Tonymctigue (Reply 2):
This put me wondering, if the government do not use their vote, could MOL, backed by trade unions & the ESOT, have enough votes to block the decision? Certainly the pilots & the ESOT could threaten to use their shares to block the BFS move if they don't get what they want for new staff at BFS

Just picking on the whole Pilot strike rather then your particular points Tony. Have the the Pilots/Unions totally lost the plot at this stage!
If I was DM, I'd be tearing my hair out, almost a year on from privatisation and the semi-state Union run airline is still stuck in a time warp! Honestly, at times the Mgt of the Company must wonder why they accepted the jobs.

EI has created a new base outside of the ROI, and under the agreements that were proposed by the Labour Relation Commission - and accepted by both parties, EI is free to start a new base outside of ROI, and hire people under local contact agreements. Living in Dublin and Belfast is different, earning sterling is fantastic at the moment, it gets you more the most other currencies out there. EI want to expand, grow and become bigger so they can resist an FR or EK or BA take-over, and the Pilots - shareholders of the Company who have sunk their hard earned cash into the Company are putting it in jeopardy.
If the base had been in Warsaw, those Pilots would be on 'local' contracts and wouldn't be subject to an Irish pension, yet do you think we'd see these strikes!! The Pilots - 1 of the best paid groups in EI, are protecting their own little turf, but in the usual blind madness that the Unions stir up, they don't see the long-term damage this is causing - which is destroying the value of their investments!!
I have full support for DM and Mgt on this - the airline has to say no more to the Unions - some people work very hard for the airline and don't get the recognition they deserve, and I fully appreciate and enjoy Bx737 and Bramble and COEI's input on these threads, but this has gone too far. EI is a business, and has to make money and grow where they can, they are creating 100 new jobs, and employing up to 30 new Pilots in BFS, and before those candidates get a chance to apply for the job and accept the package that is on offer - we live in a democracy people - if EI arent paying you enough - work for somebody else! - the Dublin based - well paid Pilots have spoken and possibly stopped the NI Pilots having that opportunity.

Apologises for the rant - but I have had enough - I would honestly tear my hair out working in such an environment - there is give and take - but I only see take in this case - and it is the taking of the utmost selfishness!

Pilot21
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
 
tonymctigue
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:19 am

Quoting Rineanna (Reply 8):
Didn't it say on the article about switching airports (was it posted on here?) that it was due to customer's requests? Since when has that mattered?!! I'd love to know the different costs associated with operating to these airports, and the increase in costs associated with the move.

This was mentioned on the last thread but it simply got swallowed up by the whole SNN-LHR thing. It is becoming a bit of a habit for FR to start using more convenient airports. I suppose when they say "due to customer demand" they really mean that they were loosing out to charter operators flying to TFS

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 9):
Im from Cork and I dont see this as a dublin issue at all. A company has made a decision to move operations from SNN to BFS, how is DUB involved at all??? (apart from the company being based in DUB)

Excellent point. I even argued in a previous post on the last thread that the SNN lobby should have a relatively easy task of persuading the government to support them when you compare it to the SNN stopover specifically because the DUB has nothing to gain from this decision.
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
pilot21
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:36 am

Quoting Rineanna (Reply 8):
It's reported on an article in the Air Asia thread that they are to operate a former EI A333; is that EI-SHN they're talking about, or will it be the A333 retired in '09 I wonder?

It is EI-SHN apparently Rineanna. At this stage that aircraft has been through a few owners - and the last one didn't take very good care of it - so hopefully it gets a full check up before being let loose - because whatever about a JFK-DUB aircraft going tech - a KL- somewhere in India/MidEast - London flight going tech with 390-something pax onboard would not be pleasant!

Very interesting post on the new fleet Kaitak. As we mentioned in earlier threads when the order was first announced, it seems like EI is going to hang onto either ORD or JFK til 2015 - whichever 1 is owned by EI rather then leased - can never remember. Either way neither of them is in great shape now- so can you image them in 8yrs time!
I'm surprised that DUO will be the only 200 in the fleet in 2015 after the A350's arrive - my guess is we'll see that 1 being disposed of if the options on the A350's go ahead, leaving us with just the A350 and A330-300E fleet.
EI-DUB and EI-CRK both arrived in 1994, but as DUB is the older (by a few months) I'd see it being the 1st to leave with CRK/ORD following in 2011.

Pilot21
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
 
seanjohn
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:40 am

Just some thoughts!
Reading through the various posts it does seem as though the plot has moved to a different planet!
Some comments from a user, rather than a supplier, of aviation services:

1. Not sure that Michael O'Leary and Ryanair have the best interests at heart! I would expect the letter that has already been sent to the EU reads .........I told you so! Can not imagine how valuable this set of circumstances is to his case against the EU blocking decision on Aer Lingus ownership!

2. Aer Lingus has spent most of it's life as the tail of the political dog! Just as it gets to bark on it's own you now want the Government to wag the tail again! It's about time that some of those on the band wagon joined the real world. A real commercial decision from Aer Lingus - what a thrill!

3. Not sure what the Government response will be but sure as hell it will be made based on votes rather than commercial reality. If I remember correctly there are too many TD's whose future is dependent on those final 50, or so, votes! So maybe I was worng, perhaps we already know the decision to be taken by Berties and the merry band of ........can't think of a suitable word!

4. You must give the pilots credit for the strike notice, best timing ever! I think it was Bx737 who wrote those immortal words....good grasp of business and the airline industry....and then proceeded to question the readiness of the airline. No doubt he will have suitable words of wisdom for this wholly unjustified, irresponsible, and self serving action. I wonder is the strike really about pay and conditions for new staff or pay and conditions for those staff who live in the North and would now like to work from there. Obvisouly the pilots have no children returning to school next week.

As I said just some thoughts!

Have a nice evening
J
 
bx737
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:04 am

Thanks Pilot21 for the nice comments. As I have stated before, I hate strikes and I think they do more harm than good. It took me completely by surprise when I heard on the news last night that the pilots were going on strike for two days. To add insult to shock it is on my days off!!  Wink

Anyway I think that the pilots may have been a little too fast off the marks. From a cabin crew point of view the Labour Court agreed 100% with the company about the setting up of foreign bases using local pay and conditions. The entrenched position of both sides and the apparent unwillingness to negotiate by either side is worrying. Enda Corneille said that the strike will go ahead, instead of saying something like we will be trying to avoid the strike.

Interestingly MOL said that FR have a number of aircraft which would be available for EI on the days of the strike. Why is this so? Are FR expanding too fast and not having enough routes for their fleet and how will this affect the remaining 100+ aircraft that are on order?

It is also interesting that they are moving from TFS to TFN. Is this geared at putting more pressure on EI on yet another route. It is also interesting that there are more main airports being served by FR. MOL did look like an eejit doing his "Bring me Sunshine" dance. Morecambe and Wise were the experts at this.

IIRC in answering EISHN, Oct 2000 saw cabin crew out on strike, followed by Feb 01. The next strike was the pilots in Jun 02 followed by the lock out. Then cabin crew went on a work to rule for 6 weeks culminating in a 24 hour strike in Oct 03. There have been various threats of industrial strife from various groups since, the most serious being SIPTUs walk out recently. I remember the LRC saying that over a 10 year period they had over 500 cases involving EI. This doesn't say much for industrial relations in the company. It seem to be one thing that all management teams have ensured is carried between changes in personnel at the top. It stems from a lack of trust between staff and management. This is shown through the fact that 10 times out of 10 the staff hear about bad news through the press and not internally. This surely not a good way to inspire confidence in your staff.
 
tonymctigue
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:14 am

OK guys. I finally finished my first TR for the trip I made on EI-DUO from SNN-DUB on 29/07/07 to see the Clare V's Limerick All Ireland Hurling Quarter Final. I apogise in advance for any spelling & grammer mistakes you find but it took me so long to sort out the how to include the photos that I couldn't be bothered proof reading it. This is my first TR so please be gentle.

Croke Park Special EI124-SNN-DUB EI-DUO-29/07/07

By the way, congratulations to our Limerick members for their victories over Clare & Waterford. Not to offend any Kilkenny members but I will have to support my neighbouring county in the All Ireland Final.
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
bx737
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:28 am

Quoting Seanjohn (Reply 14):
I think it was Bx737 who wrote those immortal words....good grasp of business and the airline industry....and then proceeded to question the readiness of the airline. No doubt he will have suitable words of wisdom for this wholly unjustified, irresponsible, and self serving action.

Yes I did say those words and they are true. I have seen both WW and Vermot squirming when asked questions about the future plans of the airline by cabin crew. I should also point out that a lot of cabin crew (myself included) have business degrees so yes I feel that I do have a good grasp of the airline business. I have also stated on many occasions in the past that I totally disagree with strike action. I along with many other contributors to these forums are questioning the readiness of the airline. I stated before that EI management do not seem to have a Plan B are have been completely caught off guard by the reaction to their decisions. So I reiterate the airline is totally unprepared, nothing that I have seen can convince me otherwise. I hope that answers your point adequately.
 
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OA260
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:43 am

Quoting Tonymctigue (Reply 16):
OK guys. I finally finished my first TR for the trip I made on EI-DUO from SNN-DUB on 29/07/07 to see the Clare V's Limerick All Ireland Hurling Quarter Final. I apogise in advance for any spelling & grammer mistakes you find but it took me so long to sort out the how to include the photos that I couldn't be bothered proof reading it. This is my first TR so please be gentle.

Loved your TR it was great !!!


 bigthumbsup 

----------------------------------------------------

This must be the night of Irish TR's ................here is mine ....thanks in advance for all your comments and suggestions

Goodbye LOT Polish Airlines/WAW-DUB B737/Lots Pics (by OA260 Aug 14 2007 in Trip Reports)
 
seanjohn
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:03 am

Bx737, thanks for the comments! Let's just say we will agree to differ.

Rgds
J
 
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OA260
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:15 am

Quoting Bx737 (Reply 17):
I stated before that EI management do not seem to have a Plan B are have been completely caught off guard by the reaction to their decisions. So I reiterate the airline is totally unprepared, nothing that I have seen can convince me otherwise. I hope that answers your point adequately.

Well that certainly seems to be the current situation from the info comming out to the trade from EI head office. It seems that EI will just shut down for 2 days. They dont even seem to want to avert or put in a plan B for the strikes. JL and KL are doing more to re protect passengers than EI on the connecters. BMI are cleaning up for next Tues and Wednes.

I dont support strike action as you all know but creating this North / South divide as I said before on other issues will be bad news for EI and it is a dangerous road to go down. The reaction on the ground here is very damning of EI.
 
Bramble
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:04 am

[quote=Bx737,reply=17] I have seen both WW and Vermot squirming when asked questions about the future plans of the airline by cabin crew. I should also point out that a lot of cabin crew (myself included) have business degrees so yes I feel that I do have a good grasp of the airline business. I have also stated on many occasions in the past that I totally disagree with strike action. I along with many other contributors to these forums are questioning the readiness of the airline. I stated before that EI management do not seem to have a Plan B are have been completely caught off guard by the reaction to their decisions. So I reiterate the airline is totally unprepared, nothing that I have seen can convince me otherwise. quote]

I support Bx737 here. I don't want a strike, I want ppl to sit down and discuss things. EI always seem to want their staff to strike. I was working in Operations during the last pilot lock-out. The company refused to talk to them. EI have aproblem where many middle-senior management do not have aviation backgrounds and make decisions appropriate to Eircom, AIB, etc. Strikes IMHO do more harm than good.

Yes I enjoy my job, yes I am not underpaid, but no I do not want to have 2 classes of cabin crew in my company. By all means set up a base in BFS,use local staff, (If I wasn't married to a Dublin girl I would volunteer for BFS base)but

EI have gone out of their way in recent years to alienate their staff. I honestly would love to work WITH my management to make EI a great little airline. But any iniative we (cabin crew) try to show gets closed down. When we ask pertinent questions we get no answers. ( Eg. Cabin crew have still to receve any definite advice from Head office on what advice to give to pax who paid Eur15 for an exit row before the a/c was changed)

EI have made and will continue to make bad business (and definitely bad PR) decisions. Privatisation was the great white hope for me. IT saddens me that the same ppl are making the same stupid mistakes and giving my airline a bad name.
 
kaitak
Topic Author
Posts: 10061
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:39 am

Interesting comment in this extract from De Paper:

Tony Killeen is saying that there's a question mark over the validity of FR's proposed move and he's having it looked into.

Translation: the govt is trying every trick in the book to wriggle out of the trap MO'L has set for them. Oh, this is going to be FUN! It is just GREAT that the govt has been forced, dragged kicking and screaming to take a stance on something they desperately want to avoid taking a stance on!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishex...qqa=ireland-qqqid=39945-qqqx=1.asp

It's not hard to see why the govt is so desperate to avoid taking a stance here; can you imagine the spectacle of the govt voting in favour of EI's move, given what Cullen said last year about the minimum level of service on the SNN-LHR routes. They would be ABSOLUTELY CRUCIFIED over it. And if they avoid it, MO'L will make that absolutely known. You can just imagine govt officials and lawyers trying every trick and searching for any possible loophole to avoid a vote on this. Damned if they do, damned if they don't and damn it, Bertie's going to take out a contract on O'Leary!

[Edited 2007-08-15 04:49:43]
 
seanjohn
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:13 am

RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:23 pm

Good morning!

Thank you Bramble for reply 21!

We each have our own opinion and I respect yours, and for that matter Bx737's, howevere as an outsider there is too much us and them, and it seems to me they, from both your replies, are always wrong! Simply not possible - even based on the law of averages. I am porbably older than you both and I do rememebr the bad old times. I also remember being left without seats, without change and certainly without any apologies. Not sure I understand your comment on different staff classes - how would you propose the new employees be hired, given that they will be employed in a different country? Laws alone make them different! Also an interesting idea that only airline staff can run an airline - look around you and note who runs the sucessful airlines!

There has been a lot written about what Cullen said at the time of the privitisation,what the Government said and what Aer Lingus said. Has any one bothered to read the pathfinder and prospectus documents. Quite sure that in these documents it will have been made clear what would and would not be done, and in the documents leading to formation of a plc I am sure there can be no 'perpuity' guarantees - simply not possible under current Irish law! I have seen Mr Cullen in action and fully understand the current mess.

Interesting idea that Aer Lingus might not have expected the current cuffufle! I wonder if they have not been too clever and rocked the boat to see what falls out!! It may well be that no one considered Ryanair's EU opportunity but otherwise what better way to see if you are truly a plc, or not!

Anyway we should be wary when the farmers and bishops get involved!

Happy landings
J
 
kaitak
Topic Author
Posts: 10061
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:14 pm

Here's an interesting poser: the world's fastest growing air route?

In the early 1990s, EI dropped DUB - LGW and for about a year, there was no carrier operating on the route; Dan Air had left and Cityflyer started back on the route in about 1993, with a single daily Shorts 360 (35 seats) ...

Fast forward to 2007: we now have four BA flights a day (3 735, 1 734), six Ryanair (all 738s, of course) and soon, four A320s. Now, I'm not very good at percentages (90% of the time), but even over a period of 14 years, that's a pretty significant growth rate!

Quoting Seanjohn (Reply 23):
There has been a lot written about what Cullen said at the time of the privitisation,what the Government said and what Aer Lingus said. Has any one bothered to read the pathfinder and prospectus documents. Quite sure that in these documents it will have been made clear what would and would not be done, and in the documents leading to formation of a plc I am sure there can be no 'perpuity' guarantees - simply not possible under current Irish law! I have seen Mr Cullen in action and fully understand the current mess.

Hi Seanjohn, I appreciate that there is a lot of small print in these documents, but there is a difference between "in perpetuity" and being dropped the next year. Sure, people will understand that nothing can last forever and one can never guarantee against war, economic meltdown and various other factors, BUT ... when a minister makes a statement like this - which he was not compelled to do, people did/do feel that some reliance or trust can be placed in this. If it wasn't enforceable in any way, nor backed up by anything, why did he make it? If that statement had not been made, sure there would still be anger in the midwest, but when the statement has been made and (a) absolutely nothing has been done to back it up and (b) the govt is falling over itself to distance itself from it or any responsibility or any firm stance whatsoever, you must see that it causes a lot of discord.

We have two issues here, law and politics; in law, yes, of course, you're right and there are no doubt clauses which can remove any liability, reliance or responsibility, but in politics, perception IS reality and perception is that a commitment was given, from which the govt now seeks to distance itself and this is why MOL's move is so interesting. It forces the govt to take a stance and whatever it does, it's going to find itself in serious trouble.
 
pilot21
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:54 pm

Nice to see MO'L and DM are togther on at least 1 issue - te Pilots strike planned for next week. Here is what MO'L had to say about it:

Meanwhile, Ryanair chief executive Michael O'Leary yesterday called the Aer Lingus pilots "headbangers" and said he supported Aer Lingus chief executive, Dermot Mannion, in the dispute.

Speaking at a press conference in Shannon, he said: "The idea that these headbangers in Dublin would suddenly go on strike for two days next week simply because Aer Lingus is opening up a new base is absurd.

"I am 110 per cent four square behind Dermot Mannion and the management of Aer Lingus in telling those overpaid, underworked peacocks go rotate," he said."Ryanair has opened up 22 bases in Europe in the last seven years. We have local pay and conditions at every one of those 22 bases. No pilots' union has ever told us 'there's got to be some worldwide terms and conditions'."
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
 
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OA260
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:04 pm

Quoting Seanjohn (Reply 23):
given that they will be employed in a different country?

I think people are missing the point here. It is a part of Ireland under British rule (thats not a political statement BTW just facts). Where else in the world can you be born in another country but yet be entitled to dual citizenship?? Even though the constitution was amended with regards to the national territories 50% of the population of NI consider themselves Irish living on Irish soil. It should be treated as Ireland for citizens rights and employment rights and someone in Belfast should have the same rights and pay conditions as the rest of the companies employees in other parts of the island. We are not talking about Eastern Europe here we are talking about another part of Ireland. If EI want to they can set up a totally different company call it Aer Lingus UK and run it as such. I dont believe in 2 tier cabin crew or pilots. They are doing the same job and working for exactly the same company.
 
jwmd123
Posts: 405
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:05 pm

Looks like from the Pleanala website, that the 2nd Runway is due to be decided tomorrow

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/217429.htm

Hmm, i wonder will this be put back again??????

Also, a new date of 23/8 is due on T2

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/220670.htm

We need to see this up and running ASAP. With passenger figures increasing month on month at DUB, the congestion will only get worse.

Was also looking on DUB website re fact and figures and it says DUB has 73 aircraft stands. Does anyone know exactly how many (on a typical night) aircraft would overnight at DUB. The reason I ask is given all the development planned and also with Pier D due to come on stream shortly, where are all the planes going to park.
 
Danny
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:09 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 26):
I think people are missing the point here.

I think you are missing the point. In normal economy people are paid whatever the local job market dictates. If the pilots in the North are happy with those conditions there is absolutely no reason for the current pilots to protest. They should be happy that they get better pay.
 
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OA260
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:21 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 28):
If the pilots in the North are happy with those conditions there is absolutely no reason for the current pilots to protest. They should be happy that they get better pay.

They should set up a new company then and call it Aer Lingus UK. What would happen if it was Cork or Shannon that were being told they were getting lower pay than BFS ?? Im sure they would be blocking the runways. The BFS crew will be part of the same company. I have a friend who lives in Newry and works as crew at the moment based in Dublin. If she wants to work an hour North for the same company out of BFS should she be paid less??? Its soured the whole BFS base announcement and there is alot of bad feeling around already. Basically they are treating the North as second class and thats from joe publics opinion from people I have talked to about it.
 
al2637
Posts: 252
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:11 am

RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:41 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 26):
It should be treated as Ireland for citizens rights and employment rights and someone in Belfast should have the same rights and pay conditions as the rest of the companies employees in other parts of the island.

No, it shouldn't. It is a different country, like it or loath it. Different economic conditions, different employment laws, different health care benefits, social insurance, etc etc etc. There is no way EI can justify paying the same rates in BFS as they do in DUB. Jez, sure the UK government pay certain public sector workers extra if they are based in London, why? because the cost of living is higher in London than it is in other parts of the UK. This is economic reality.

As I've said, MOL has always offered aircraft to EI in times of strike, it seems he dislikes the pilots unions more than he dislikes EI (even before he was a shareholder).

Also, quick question, did MOL ever say he would sell the LHR slots if he took over EI? I thought be just said FR wouldn't operate them? (although I might be mistaken)

I'm not entirely sure it's a good idea to force the government to take a stance on the issue. It will either damage EI and north south relations (by forcing them to keep SNN), or cause a lot of trouble in the wet, neither of which I see as being beneficial. While it might be great fun to see them get in a mess, I'd rather they were just left to keep diplomatically quiet.
 
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OA260
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:50 pm

The one thing that has come out over the last few weeks is the lack of professionalism in Aer Lingus . Staff finding out from the media about things that should have been told to them first shows how much they value their staff.
 
EI564
Posts: 264
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 9:05 am

RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:37 pm

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 30):
No, it shouldn't. It is a different country, like it or loath it. Different economic conditions, different employment laws, different health care benefits, social insurance, etc etc etc.

I agree. Although i'm not sure of the specifics of what happens if an EI pilot transfers from (say) DUB to BFS. Apparently s/he has to resign and reapply, accepting the new terms and conditions. It does seem rather draconian if you lose all benefits/seniority from having worked for EI for a number of years.

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 30):
I'm not entirely sure it's a good idea to force the government to take a stance on the issue.

True. The future of EI as a viable airline is at stake here.
 
Danny
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:00 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 29):
They should set up a new company then and call it Aer Lingus UK.

What for? To increase their costs?

Quoting OA260 (Reply 29):
What would happen if it was Cork or Shannon that were being told they were getting lower pay than BFS ??

It is absolutely normal that people working in different places for the same employer get different pay. Only EI unions don't get that.
 
EI321
Posts: 5070
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:03 pm

Quoting Seanjohn (Reply 14):
Seanjohn

And details on the roumer of Aeroflot flying to DUB?
 
seanjohn
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:13 am

RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:24 pm

Hi EI321

Still a rumour and it didn't start here. Embassy says it heard nothing! It would be interesting to try the direct flights again - Skynet were not that bad. The older Aeroflot did have some interesting touches when last they did Dublin. If it comes to pass I guess it will be a A319! Though I will have to be convinced to give up SWISS!

OA260 I guess I come from a different background as I'm not sure where it says companies are obliged to keep staff informed, especially if the issue is not directly related. And until such time as the people of Northern Ireland decide otherwise, Belfast is part of a different country - where they do have different rules, regulations and I guess employment terms and conditions! Not sure what part of this IMPACT does not understand!!

Happy landings
J
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:23 pm

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 30):
did MOL ever say he would sell the LHR slots if he took over EI?

Yes, but not all of them, he said he would sell a number of LHR slots if he took control.
John Hancock
 
dstc47
Posts: 1492
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:46 pm

Just to point out that Aer Lingus, many ,many moons ago, gave recognition to IALPA, now IMPACT, concerning negotiation of the union rights of all the airline pilots employed by Aer Lingus, whether based in DUB, SNN, ORK, LHR or wherever else and agreed certain terms, good, bad or indifferent with them. Fact not in dispute.

Merely opening a base in Belfast does not, per se, give EI the right to specify what (lower) conditions they now seek to impose there to some EI pilots and have the pilots union accept them. To image that they would agree is a least as big an error by VM as assuming that the SNN closure would pass quietly in the silly season.


Which goes first VM or WW?
 
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OA260
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:04 pm

Quoting Seanjohn (Reply 35):
Though I will have to be convinced to give up SWISS!

A man of taste anyone that likes Swiss cant be bad at all LOL...


BTW the SU A319 will be comming to Dublin sooner than you think . You heard it here  Wink

Oh and guys today I joined the broadband club!! 4MB ....I dont know myself, its amazing !!! A big thumbs up to Net1
 
seanjohn
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:25 pm

OA260

Have been a Swissair/SWISS fan and customer for over 35 years. Not always perfect but fairly close! A second late afternoon rotation to Zurich from Dublin would be above excellent!

It will be interesting to see the Aeroflot pricing, especially business. They recently started Moscow Malaga direct (and somewhat in competition to SWISS via Zurich) and the pricing is way over the top - economy or business. But Russians like Aeroflot and the service is doing well. And yet last Saturday the later SWISS Malaga Zurich flight was full and more than 60% Russians, connecting. Guess I'm not the only one who likes SWISS!!!!!

Happy landings
J
 
pilot21
Posts: 985
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:46 pm

Hearing on the news wires that EI has leased some aircraft to operate a few flights on the following routes during next weeks strike:

London (LHR)
Manchester
Amsterdam
Faro
Malaga

I've no idea where the planes are coming from, or if this has been confirmed, just saw it in a news wire report. It is said that EI hopes to carry u to 8K of the estimated 50K of pax who will be affected. Aircraft for the Transatlantic routes are trying to be sourced, but no word on whether they can get anything yet, given the time of year it will be tough.

Pilot21
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
 
pilot21
Posts: 985
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RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 10:53 pm

2 new FR aircraft for DUB and new routes, plus increased in frequency:

Overview:

Ryanair, Europe's largest low fares airline today (Wednesday, 15 August 2007)
announced its intention to base two new aircraft at Dublin from November 2007
(making a total of 22 Dublin based aircraft), to launch 6 new European routes
and to increase frequencies on a further 12 routes to the UK and Europe, all of
which will deliver an extra 1 million passengers annually for tourism and the
Irish economy.

New:

Dublin to: Starts: Frequency:
Basel Oct 3 x weekly
Budapest Oct Daily
Katowice Nov 3 x weekly
Nice Nov Daily
Prague Nov Daily
Szczecin Oct 2 x weekly


Increase:

Dublin to: Existing Frequency: New Frequency:
Birmingham 3 x daily 4 x daily
Bournemouth 7 x weekly 9 x weekly
Bratislava 4 x weekly Daily
Edinburgh 3 x daily 4 x daily
Gdansk 2 x weekly 3 x weekly
Kaunas 6 x weekly Daily
Krakow 5 x weekly Daily
Manchester 4 x daily 5 x daily
Riga 4 x weekly Daily
Rzeszow 2 x weekly 3 x weekly
Tenerife 4 x weekly 5 x weekly
Wroclaw 4 x weekly 5 x weekly
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
 
rineanna
Posts: 768
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:33 am

RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:01 pm

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 41):
Basel Oct 3 x weekly

Great stuff.

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 41):
Prague Nov Daily



Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 41):
Budapest Oct Daily

Proverbial cat among the proverbial pigeons where MA and OK are concerned. Will they take the same path as LOT?

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 41):
Birmingham 3 x daily 4 x daily

Interesting to note the recent increase in services to BHX; this added to the new SNN-BHX route.

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 41):
Bratislava 4 x weekly Daily

Great to see it doing so well.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 38):
BTW the SU A319 will be coming to Dublin sooner than you think

 bigthumbsup 
 
EISHN
Posts: 1096
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:31 am

RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:05 pm

It appears that our dear Poitin has been banned yet again.
https://www.airliners.net/discussions/profile.main?username=Poitin
 
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OA260
Posts: 25345
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:06 pm

It will make interesting spotting at DUB on Tues/Wednes. I wonder what A/C and airlines will operate on behalf of EI. Also maybe a MD-11 on the TA's???
 
EISHN
Posts: 1096
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:31 am

RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:11 pm

EI have sorted out deals to lease some aircraft and crews for next week to operate a limited schedule.
They'll have some services to LHR, MAN, AMS, FAO, and AGP. No news yet on the Transatlantic services, but they probally will get some MD-11s, DC-10s, 757s, 767s, or put them on as manyt other airlines as they can. I'm sure they can put pax on DL 2X JFK service, CO 3X EWR, AA 2X ORD, and some BA/AA, out of LHR, and KL out of AMS.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0815/aerlingus.html


Heres some information on the EI site about what to do.
http://www.aerlingus.com/cgi-bin/obe...ecfigdffgdfkk.0&P_OID=0&Category=3
 
jwmd123
Posts: 405
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 7:12 pm

RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:11 pm

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 41):
Birmingham 3 x daily 4 x daily

I wonder if this will have any impact on the EMA flights (Load factor/yields)

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 41):
Prague Nov Daily

going head to head with EI and OK

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 41):
Nice Nov Daily

More competition for EI

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 41):
Szczecin Oct 2 x weekly



Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 41):
Katowice Nov 3 x weekly

FR have poland fairly sown up now.

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 41):
Ryanair, Europe's largest low fares airline today (Wednesday, 15 August 2007)
announced its intention to base two new aircraft at Dublin from November 2007
(making a total of 22 Dublin based aircraft), to launch 6 new European routes
and to increase frequencies on a further 12 routes to the UK and Europe, all of
which will deliver an extra 1 million passengers annually for tourism and the
Irish economy

I find it hard to beleive that 2 aircraft can do all this. Are any routes being dropped
 
jwmd123
Posts: 405
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 7:12 pm

RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:15 pm

From FR's website re the new and increased routes


With these new routes and additional flights, Ryanair expects to carry a record 10m passengers through Dublin Airport in 2008. The message today is clear, the people of Ireland can no longer trust Aer Lingus to provide secure access to/from this country. Thankfully Ryanair can be relied on, not just to provide access, but to do so on brand new aircraft, with the lowest fares, the best passenger service, and a guarantee of no fuel surcharge.


note the item about EI. Being a 25% shareholder, it really is double standards.

On one level, this disruption will affect FR's investment in turn their dividend (if any)

Secondly, does not say they have much confidence in their investment
 
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shamrock350
Posts: 5498
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:38 am

RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:27 pm

I changed my booking, it was very easy and of course free of charge, I got an email apologising for the disruption shortly after I received my confirmation email for the date change.

Quote:
It will bring Ryanair's total number of routes served from Dublin to 81 -- almost double the number served by Aer Lingus

I counted 71 routes to be served by Aer Lingus by the end of the year. Which is only 10 less than Ryanair's number of routes, nowhere near the "almost double" FR states.

Kieran Mulvey of the LRC said "Ryanair chief executive Michael O'Leary could not be taken seriously, saying Mr O'Leary had a different business agenda which is not in Aer Lingus's interest." A very true statement and I hope people dont think MOL actually cares about the people and businesses of Ireland and although he dislikes unions and strikes at any airline, this has been a very bad week for Aer Lingus and their public image. Its going to take a lot to get the public's trust back.
 
EI787
Posts: 1230
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 4:06 am

RE: Climbing Northbound From 36: More Irish Aviation!

Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:28 am

According to this article, EI plan to lease 747's for the Transatlantic Services:

Quote:
No deal has been struck to have transatlantic flights in the sky but Mr Corneille said staff were seeking 747 jets for its US services.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhcwmhqlmhid/

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