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AA767400
Posts: 1894
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:31 am

Quoting ULMFlyer (Reply 29):
I can't conceive that passengers would behave this way if the captain and senior flight attendant had come up on the PA, in English and Spanish, and explained that there was absolutely nothing they could do, and then had kept giving constant updates on the situation.

That does nothing for people. And I highly doubt the Crew did not inform passengers of the situation. MOST passengers don't understand the rules and regulations of this type of event. I have been in this type of situation as a Crew and keeping people informed does nothing after sitting on a plane for several hours. People could care less about customs,rules, or regulations, they just want to get off!

Passengers don't care if it's the government that is keeping them from getting off the plane, CO is the visible choice to blame since they are the ones who are in the plane with them. Trust me that the Crew would like to get off that plane just as everyone else, but try stepping off that plane with a German Sheppard waiting for you on the jetbridge. As Crew I don't hold anyone back. If they feel they need to get off then by all means do so because they won't be going anywhere anytime soon.

Again there is nothing the airline can do to pacify a full plane of angry passengers stuck at a gate. The only option they want is off. You can tell them of the situation, you can feed them, and you can show another round of "I love Lucy" but that does little to help passengers who missed their connections, had plans, or need medicine.

Sometimes blame is the first thing you see.
"The low fares airline."
 
cytz_pilot
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 1999 3:34 pm

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:47 am

Seems like a whole series of bad events which individually, wouldn't have been that bad, but collectively, made for a terrible experience.

What gets me is the passengers being escorted off the plane, walking in single file being watched by armed Homeland Security guards and an attack dog, kind of like prisoners. Did they honestly think that somehow these passengers had foreseen this delay and were ready to run the border?!?
 
PAHS200
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:06 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:07 am

Quoting MattRB (Reply 9):
With 7 airlines providing scheduled international service to BWI, why weren't these passengers deplaned

US law

Quoting Sacamojus (Reply 10):
I have to say that I am absolutely appalled at this. I can't believe that GROWN ADULTS will act like little children when they don't get their way.

agree

Before people start bitching and sueing maybe they should learn the law

michael
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4352
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:33 am

Can anyone explain why the port-of-entry rule does not allow for a change in destination (except in emergencies) ?

I could understand a rule like that 15 years ago when transferring data on expected passengers from EWR to BWI for processing would be slow and cumbersome, but despite occasional snafus such as LAX, FIS still has a much better system now and, technically speaking, processing passengers diverted to BWI shouldn't be much harder than doing it as their scheduled destination in EWR. So if it isn't technology, am I missing something or is it just a matter of a law that hasn't caught up with the times ?

Also, does this law prevent food from being brought on-board ? I understand the same law does not allow the airline to offload anything (pax, cargo, waste, etc...) but could CO have brought in food, or is that equally verboten ?
 
ImperialEagle
Posts: 2372
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:53 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:45 am

Ultimately,an individual is responsible for their welfare first. It is a natural instinct.

If it takes suing the Fed to get things changed---so be it. Whatever it takes to force change is going to happen, because the public will no longer tolerate these situations. I'm sure THAT it is getting clearer to many people in management positions, both the Feds and the airlines, who have a responsibility to DO SOMETHING about it, and need to stop all the lip-service.

It's a "service" industry and ways must be found to provide good and consistent service to the customer----you and I.
IMO If it doesn't the industry will just face the prospect of ending up a ward of the government (heaven forbid) and operated like a public-utility.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
slider
Posts: 7603
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:09 am

Quoting Nonrevman (Reply 23):
In the defense of the flight crew, I really doubt they had any idea that the delay would be that long. Just like the passengers, the pilots have to wait to find out what is going on. There is usually now way to predict what will happen. The situation could be resolved in 15 minutes or it could be in several hours.

Exactly- that's the nature of weather! It's unpredictable when these flights would have been released to EWR. It's called a creeping delay and it happens. And then you get to the go/no-go point and decision making becomes much more difficult. Murphy's Law--as soon as you deplane the customers, assuming you could have and gotten them cleared in this instance, you get released to go. And guess what? You miss that time and you're screwed.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 27):
The United States government is responsible for what happened here.

It took 27 replies before someone finally took the US government to task for this and not the individual operator. The ATC system is cratering, people. It's near COLLAPSE. It will only get worse. It's an incompetent bureaucracy that wastes money and makes excuses for its monumental and repeated failures.
 
LINATE
Posts: 71
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:52 pm

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 56):
Ultimately,an individual is responsible for their welfare first. It is a natural instinct.

If it takes suing the Fed to get things changed---so be it. Whatever it takes to force change is going to happen, because the public will no longer tolerate these situations. I'm sure THAT it is getting clearer to many people in management positions, both the Feds and the airlines, who have a responsibility to DO SOMETHING about it, and need to stop all the lip-service.

It's a "service" industry and ways must be found to provide good and consistent service to the customer----you and I.
IMO If it doesn't the industry will just face the prospect of ending up a ward of the government (heaven forbid) and operated like a public-utility.

Very well said. Someone needs to put a stop on this abuse! People pay for service and get abused...So sad the air transportation situation in the US. Even worse I find the DEFENSIVE attitude of some of the FAs in this forum.
 
AA767400
Posts: 1894
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 2:04 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 56):
If it takes suing the Fed to get things changed---so be it.

But they are not suing the Feds they are suing the airline.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 56):
Whatever it takes to force change is going to happen, because the public will no longer tolerate these situations.

Sue the Government then, but guess what? That won't do much. People will have to tolerate it because the GOVERNMENT (not the airlines) will not be changing their rules anytime soon.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 56):
both the Feds and the airlines, who have a responsibility to DO SOMETHING about it,

More like the Feds. They Airline can have working restrooms, food, medicine, and IFE, but that does not change the fact that you missed your connection in EWR, or won't make it to your brothers wedding in time. The Feds won't let you off the plane, not the airline. The weather will not let you land in EWR, now who's fault is that?

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 56):
It's a "service" industry and ways must be found to provide good and consistent service to the customer

The AIRLINE is in the service industry, not the United States government. Customs does not need your tip, nor do they wait on you at a table. To enter a country you need to adhere to their rules of govern.

B6's February fiasco could have been avoided by the airline itself. This on the other hand is different in that the airline has no say in what goes on. Plus, New York is going to implement a law to which airlines most follow in case of a delay. How that will play out when this type of situation happens I don't know.
"The low fares airline."
 
semsem
Posts: 1621
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:06 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:24 am

Good that New York State is taking action. CO is a nickel and dime operation who could have calmed the passengers by offering food and beverages at least.
 
fraT
Posts: 1174
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 4:32 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:53 am

Quoting Semsem (Reply 60):
Good that New York State is taking action. CO is a nickel and dime operation who could have calmed the passengers by offering food and beverages at least.

How do you know, that they didn't offer anything?
How do you know, that there still was food and/or beverages onboard?
 
ImperialEagle
Posts: 2372
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:53 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:06 am

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 58):
That won't do much. People will have to tolerate it because the GOVERNMENT (not the airlines) will not be changing their rules anytime soon

If Americans had used that attitude as a standard we would still be British subjects.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 58):
Customs does not need your tip, nor do they wait on you at a table. To enter a country you need to adhere to their rules of govern.

Customs is still a part of the U.S. Government and we Americans pay their "tip". They can be changed and in time they will be as time changes everything anyway.
Oh, and to enter this country all you need to do is walk on in.

Change is gonna' happen!
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
FlyHoss
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:12 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 55):
It's a "service" industry and ways must be found to provide good and consistent service to the customer----you and I.

You're right, it's a service industry, but you're also missing the point. Federal law prohibits an airline from deplaning the passengers unless they can be processed (admitted to the country). So in a sense, that an airline provides a service is secondary in this case, since it was an international flight.

Are you suggesting that CO should have allowed any passenger wishing to deplane to do just that? What would have happened then? Those passengers would have been arrested and fined! And then they'd sue the airline for that, too.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 41):
Is it really a law that when a pax purchases a seat on an airline, they forfeit any rights to protect their own welfare whatsoever?

While it's difficult to respond to such a tilted or biased question, the answer - to some degree - is yes. For example, Customs or Agriculture Control might confiscate something from you (flowers, fruit, certain animal products (skins, for example)). Anywhere else, this would be theft. But in the case of an international entry, they're allowed to do just that very thing - confiscate. And then maybe issue a fine to that entrant, too.

Ultimately, I agree with you, the process must be improved, but I'm not holding out any hope that it will happen soon. There are just too many greater issues for Congress to consider, IMHO.
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8507
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:18 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 3):
These passengers were extremely easy going on my books...

Yup, I agree. Can't help but side with the pax here.

This happened sooner than I thought it would. . .
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
ImperialEagle
Posts: 2372
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:53 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 62):
And then they'd sue the airline for

As I said, the pax should be offered a disclaimer to sign when accepting the consequences of their own actions in such circumstances. If they are arrested they can always sue. If they are all arrested they can do a class-action. The more often it happens the more bad publicity it will generate and the more pressure will be brought to bear on government officials.

The airline's upper management is also quite capable of bringing pressure to bear on governments when and where they wish. Its done all the time. K Street is absolutely lined with lobbyists.
You can nit-pik me and split-hairs untill the cows come home, but you just remember who told you-----whether it is at the government level and/ or private sector-----------
Change is going to happen!
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
semsem
Posts: 1621
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:06 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:59 am

Frat they said in the TV video they were offered no food.
 
wdleiser
Posts: 865
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 9:32 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:44 am

I am sorry, but these passengers are utter morons. There is no excuse to try and start a riot on the plane. The pilots can't open the door, the F/A's are not allowed to the door. If they let people off the plane... what would happen if the flight got a takeoff slot due to weather going away for a short period of time. YOu know what... the flight would not be able to leave until all the passengers got back onto the plane, got seated, stowed everything etc etc, engine startup process would have to occurr again, we are talking an hour delay just to get all passengers back on the plane. The fact of the matter is no one knew how long the delay was going to be. I hate all you sue happy people and all the other sue happy people of america. This could of easily happened to a Singapore Airlines flight. If food was brought to that particular CO flight, then food would have to be brought to other delayed flights... and what about the flights that were already scheduled out of BWI... what if they had no food to put on their flight due to the diverted aircraft.?
 
TrvlnMan
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:53 pm

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:31 am

Quoting 28thguy (Reply 12):
They were subject to FALSE IMPRISONMENT on an aircraft without access to food or working toilets.

You're wrong. Not only are you embellishing the story by adding non-working toilets, but they were not intentionally restrained by physical force, or threat of physical force which is the definition according to Webster's Dictionary of Law, Nor, Detention or imprisonment contrary to the provisions of law, which comes from the American Heritage Dictionary, since it was an international flight CO has to obey customs and immigration laws.
I'm sure it sucked, but whatcha gonna do?????
 
TrvlnMan
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:53 pm

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:36 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 21):
What I'm suggesting is that every business has to assess the risks associated with running the business and have provisions ready to solve the problems. Failing that is a sign of poor management.

And every passenger has to assess the risks associated with flying.... As has been proven over and over again, CO is not a poorly managed company.
 
robsawatsky
Posts: 477
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:07 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:40 am

Quoting Wdleiser (Reply 66):
I am sorry, but these passengers are utter morons.

More likely a demonstration of group dynamics and mass hysteria combined with individual physical and emotional discomfort. People will do in a group what they would never consider when their behaviour would be isolated.

They should have declared a medical emergency for the entire complement of passengers and crew (temporary insanity brought on by the conditions). Probably extreme, but maybe a creative way to get around the rule-makers and followers that won't risk their own necks to find a solution.
 
TrvlnMan
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:53 pm

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:51 am

Quoting KITH (Reply 31):
Can you honestly imagine going to your local Kia/Buick/Toyota/BMW whatever dealership, handing the dealer $30,000 and saying "give me whatever piece of garbage on the lot you have"
Name me one other industry that has a contract of adhesion like the airlines do? Where the employees can have a customer arrested for muttering a foreign word, wearing a t-shirt or pressing a button? Find me another industry like this please. -Matt in KITH

Find me another industry that has to put up with so much crap from the media, false accusations, and unrealistic expectations from people who think they make the rules... Nobody ever takes into consideration that goverment regulations (not industry regulation) play a huge part in what they can and cannot do, especially on international flights. Everybody wants to bitch, but nobody wants to take the bus.  banghead 
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:51 am

Some of you guys are forgetting that CO is NOT to blame here one bit. CO is only guilty for following U.S. law, PERIOD! There was NOTHING THAT CONTINENTAL AIRLINES COULD DO!!!!!!!!! Why is that so damn difficult to understand?!

CO does not make the laws. The Federal Goverment does! CO has no say in anything at all but to comply with the law.

If you want the laws changed, write to your local congressman/woman or state senator.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
AASTEW
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:47 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:52 am

If their was food onboard, trust it would have been offered! F/A's and Pilots do the best we can do in these circumstances. I'm quite sure as an expericenced F/A, the crew ran out of FOOD and drinks. I could almost guarantee the only bev. they may have had left onboard was tonic water. Pilots just don't fly whenever or anywhere they want to fly they are instructed by others mainly FAA (ATC). Major companies also have to follow rules of governments at hand.


Also, I guess it's now time to dump on CO DAY, on A.net. I'm guessing how many days till A.net will be praising them.........again. This joke never ends.

AASTEW
 
TrvlnMan
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:53 pm

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:57 am

Quoting ULMFlyer (Reply 29):
the situation was due to (asinine) federal regs, then the consultant quoted in the article is right. It seems that there was a major communications blunder on the part of the crew.

Right. Why should we be concerned with who or what is coming into this country. It's just plane (sic) asinine! (sarcasm)
 
iairallie
Posts: 2326
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 5:42 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:06 am

Quoting ACFA (Reply 6):
There could've been a variety of reasons why the passengers couldn't be allowed off.

Like a lack of gate space. A short update time which gradually turns into a rolling delay. Lack of immigration and customs capacity. A lack of CO ground personel at that station. Unsafe ramp conditions/ramp stop due to lightning in the area.

Unfortunately not every flight get the pick of the airports when being diverted in weather conditions. When you have xyz flights to divert and only x number of ideal airports, y number of so-so airports, and z number of airports with very limited facilities. Some planes will end up at y and z. Where it may not be possible to get off the plane, get catering or any service but fuel.

I was on a NWA PDX-NRT flight that diverted due to wx. We sat 8 hours on the ground, this after a very long transpacific flight. We were all able to remain civilized. Why freak out. It's not like there were any safe options.

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 14):
Having food provided for longer delays simply shouldn't be that difficult.

It is if your airline does not have a catering kitchen there. It is not like the kitchens have masses of extra food just incase something like this happens after all food is a perishable commodity and caterers are businesses. Business don't cary large overstocks of perishable items. As to the petty cash and mc-donalds suggestion. 1. the aircraft was not at a gate but in a holding area. 2. the plane and pax had not cleared customs and immigration and by federal law cannot intermingle with outsiders until it does.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 3):
There is something seriously wrong with the aviation in USA. If I'd be there, I'd be suing too,especially after this experience:

Quote:
We were removed from the plane and were forced to walk single file against the wall, flanked by armed officers one of whom had an attack dog," Murray said.

Attack dog HA HA HA sorry that is melodrama and hyperbole at it's best. It was most likely a customs and immigration dog as at that point they were in the secured customs and immigration area.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 18):
What's the maximum duty time?

I belive FAA max is 16 hours on duty. Which can be extended with extra crew.

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 14):
As a diabetic, I understand that for some people meal timing is more important than you might think...I always carry a bag of trail mix or nuts with me just in case of a delay.

Thank you for taking responsiblity and ownership of your health.

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 14):
so why couldn't the passengers just be processed by Immigration?

Because there were 12 other unscheduled international arrivals there at the same time. Have you ever gone through immigration on a normal day during an international arrival bank? Some immigration checkpoints can hardly handle that.

Quoting 28thguy (Reply 12):
The pilot should have been more proactive in demanding a resolution,

Yes because we all know the pilots are omnipotent and can make things that don't exist like gate space materialize. They also have the power to change federal immigration laws.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
TrvlnMan
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:53 pm

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:43 am

Quoting Cytz_pilot (Reply 52):
What gets me is the passengers being escorted off the plane, walking in single file being watched by armed Homeland Security guards and an attack dog, kind of like prisoners. Did they honestly think that somehow these passengers had foreseen this delay and were ready to run the border?!?

It probably has more to do with they way they were acting on the plane than the threat that they were going to run for the border. It's quite a trek from Maryland to either border  Smile- It's amazing to me that they are upset by being treated this way. Morons!
 
FlyHoss
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:58 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 64):
The airline's upper management is also quite capable of bringing pressure to bear on governments when and where they wish. Its done all the time.

Lobbying is quite common, I agree. However, it doesn't guarentee change, far from it in many cases. If it were a guarentee (of change) why are the airlines still flying under an unfortunately archiac ATC system?

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 64):
You can nit-pik me and split-hairs untill the cows come home

Yes, yes, you're quite right. Pointing out that the Federal law supercedes airline policy is quite "nit-picky."  Yeah sure
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
FlyHoss
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:01 am

I apologize for the spelling errors in my post above. I'm not sure why the spelling corrections didn't post and I can't seem to edit the post. Again, I apologize for my poor spelling.
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:13 am

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 74):

Like a lack of gate space. A short update time which gradually turns into a rolling delay.

So start trying to get a gate right away. Don't wait 3 hours and then use the excuse that departure might be imminent (repeat every 30 minutes thereafter) as excuse to avoid getting a gate.

Quoting Wdleiser (Reply 66):
If food was brought to that particular CO flight, then food would have to be brought to other delayed flights...

Huh? How do you figure that?

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 74):

It is if your airline does not have a catering kitchen there. It is not like the kitchens have masses of extra food just incase something like this happens after all food is a perishable commodity and caterers are businesses. Business don't cary large overstocks of perishable items. As to the petty cash and mc-donalds suggestion. 1. the aircraft was not at a gate but in a holding area. 2. the plane and pax had not cleared customs and immigration and by federal law cannot intermingle with outsiders until it does.

Airport employees probably brought the airstairs to the aircraft. Cops were there. Have that same employee bring a bunch of pizzas, bottled water, toilet paper, and whatever else is needed. Some CO employee on the ground at BWI must have a credit card.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 71):

If you want the laws changed, write to your local congressman/woman or state senator.

Why don't CO and other airlines put public pressure on the gov't ("Look what we had to do because of stupid laws. Change X, Y, and Z so that we can let pax off and cater the aircraft.") to change the law?
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4722
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:13 am

It's amazing how many people here, who are supposed to be aviation enthusiasts and should know how the industry works, don't know squat about it. You know who you are, and I suggest that you become employed with an airline to see how it really works.

Pilots are not gods who can snap their fingers and produce gate space and immigration officers. They cannot repeal federal law. Flight Attendants are not magicians who can make food and water appear out of thin air.

Those pax who want to sue CO for this.... well, I can't say anything nice about them so I'll keep my mouth shut.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
TrvlnMan
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:53 pm

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:15 am

Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 77):
I'm not sure why the spelling corrections didn't post and I can't seem to edit the post. Again, I apologize for my poor spelling.

You should sue A-Net - You paid for a product that included spell check. They can't get away with this, I tell you!!  Wink
 
TrvlnMan
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:53 pm

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:18 am

Quoting Analog (Reply 78):
Some CO employee on the ground at BWI must have a credit card.

I wouldn't buy you a pizza, but I'll share mine once you clear customs.
 
PHX Flyer
Posts: 544
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 9:52 pm

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:34 am

I was trapped on an outbound plane for six hours myself last year - before taking off for a seven-hour flight to CGN, that is. We had a string of thunderstorms moving through the Northeast Corridor, and shortly after we pushed back from the gate the flight deck crew learned that we wouldn't be able to make out in time before ATC issued a ground stop.The crew was very nice and informed us about every little development. I swear , I could have drawn the radar screen on the tray table, with every little cell in its current position, from the captain's descriptions.

After reading more about this issue lately, I have come to the conclusion that it is not primarily the airlines that are to blame - it's the ineptitude of ATC to assign departure slots hours in advance in case of serious ground delays. The problem is that neither the captain nor the dispatcher, not anyone seems to know what's going to happen five minutes from now in case of delays. So every attempt is made to keep the aircraft in a condition for immediate departure the entire time in order to avoid the risk of losing an upcoming departure slot.

In my case the cabin crew waited for an hour, before they finally started to serve water and juice off trays, and every once in a while a bag of pretzels. They did not want to serve dinner, because they would not have enough time to prepare the cabin for departure in case we'd get a sudden go-head from ATC. I think, if ATC were in a position to give out minimum ground time estimates, the airlines could be more flexible and indeed deliver better passenger service. I have never heard or read about similar experiences in Europe despite the fact that airport congestion is not unheard of there. It seems that in Britain, ATC informs flight crews at least an hour ahead of their departure slot, and boarding would not begin unless it was clear that the aircraft could get a departure clearance within a reasonable time frame after pushback. At least that has been my experience at LHR so far.

So, one thing we have to ask ourselves in the upcoming elections if we should focus more on having our infrastructure fixed (first and foremost ATC), or rather defend marriage. Tough choice. Not!
"Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes forever skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." -Leonardo Da Vinci
 
trndskywrd
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:26 pm

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:39 am

For some reason, people believe that airlines have it out for its passengers. The misserable experience makes it difficult to retain business and certainly the things that will be said by word of mouth from these passengers. Unhappy passengers does not equal revenue. Also, why would you want an entire plane full of unhappy people to just sit there if the situation did not warrant it. The article states that the law does not them to deplane without federal inspections to take place. If that was not possible, im sure it would have taken place. What good it is for an airlines to hold you hostage. A sitting plane makes NO money.

My only agrument for the passengers is that I'm assuming they were not updated frequently. I was on a plane from ATL to LAX on DL and when we landed the gate was occupied. We sat out by Americans express terminal for almost an hour. THe aircraft at the gate had MX issues prior to pusback. We were informed but people were still upset. Should we have rioted? For what reason? Im sure DL did not want to deal with that if it could avoid it. But it happened and we arrived at the gate an hour late.
 
iairallie
Posts: 2326
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 5:42 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:41 am

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 24):
at least to allow for trash/lavatory emptying and catering delivery, with appropriate security supervision? It simply shouldn't be that big of a deal.

International trash has to be disposed of in a special manner. I belive it is incinerated. This is to protect agribusiness in the US. There is not unlimited security staff on standby at the airport in order for them to supervise the catering of multiple unexpected diversions.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 28):
Further, this can happen anywhere in the world from diversion if the airport can't handle the passengers. It's not an American problem.

It's certainly happened to me all over the world. I slept two nights in airports in japan due to a typhoon and immigration issues at the diversion airport.

Quoting Ultrapig (Reply 36):
call the airport police and ask them to bing over 150 subway sandwich and 150 bottles of water

So airport police are now delivery persons. That is hardly in their job description.

Quoting Ultrapig (Reply 36):
I'd radio the pilot and tell him to take out his credit car

So if something goes wrong in your workplace you are cool with using your personal credit card to charge thousands of dollars you are likely not to be reimbursed for?

Quoting Ultrapig (Reply 36):
I'd call the airport manager. if they wouldn't do it I'd keep calling.

You do realize that the cockpit uses the radios to communicate to ops who relays the information when necessary. Hardly efficient. Do you really want the radios used to get clearances and updates tied up so you miss that all important and often narrow departure slot with the pilot repeatedly "calling" the airport manager.

Quoting 757drvr (Reply 48):
but that still doesn't make it right for passengers to go without food or water

They didn't go without water. It never said that.

Quoting AASTEW (Reply 50):
AA used to cater all A/C and ground stations with non-perishable snack items.

This is true we used to have a case of nasty breakfast bars in the back bin. Better than nothing. I think they have since been removed.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
iairallie
Posts: 2326
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 5:42 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:49 am

Quoting PHX Flyer (Reply 82):
It seems that in Britain, ATC informs flight crews at least an hour ahead of their departure slot, and boarding would not begin unless it was clear that the aircraft could get a departure clearance within a reasonable time frame after pushback

I have experienced long rolling delays in Europe and Asia. If you think Heathrow is immune from this problem have I got news for you. US airlines do not generally board the plane if they know there is a lengthy delay in store. The exception being another flight need the gate to let pax off so no one can accuse the airline of holding the inbound pax hostage. The BAA ATC is no more psychic than the US ATC, weather can be difficult to accurately predict a 30 minute thunderstorm can stall over an airport and cause a protracted delay. It happens.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
ULMFlyer
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:39 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:55 am

Quoting TrvlnMan (Reply 73):
Right. Why should we be concerned with who or what is coming into this country. It's just plane (sic) asinine! (sarcasm)

I don't think anyone in this thread has argued that the US shouldn't be concerned with whoever is coming into the country. On the other hand, you seem to be the only one who thinks it's alright to keep passengers indefinitely on a plane because for some reason the port of entry cannot be changed, and the weather has gone south at the original destination, which seems to be the main reason for the event.

I guess if there's a cabin fire on landing, the crew must wait for authorization to evacuate if they are not at the port of entry (sarcasm).

Now seriously, considering the billions spent by DHS/CBP/USCIS/etc. and the fact that pax info has already been forward by the airline to US authorities, I see no reason why the information cannot be transferred from EWR to BWI and immigration and customs cleared there. If you think there's a good reason for this reg, please enlighten us.I'd love to hear it. As I said, nobody is advocating simply letting the passengers loose in the terminal. But I'm sure they'd be much better off standing in line for a couple of hours to go through immigration, and then grabbing something to eat or drink at the terminal, rather than being stuck without either.

And don't forget about the Americans who were on board. It must have been particularly aggravating to them, being on their own soil and in that gray zone where, technically, their citizenship is not yet applicable. Hence, the lawsuits (obviously against the wrong entity).

As you can read below, the Europeans seem to have a more rational attitude. Note that the UK is not part of the Schengen Agreement.

Quoting 28thguy (Reply 7):
I recall being diverted on DL due to a mechanical problem (landing gear wouldn't retract) from AMS-JFK. DL diverted to LGW, all passengers were allowed to clear customs, and then we were rebooked on various British Airways flights from LHR-JFK
Let's go Pens!
 
ULMFlyer
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:39 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:02 am

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 84):
International trash has to be disposed of in a special manner. I belive it is incinerated. This is to protect agribusiness in the US. There is not unlimited security staff on standby at the airport in order for them to supervise the catering of multiple unexpected diversions.

Now this is a reasonable point. But then, it should be a matter of time to deplane, i.e., waiting for the availability of resources, rather than a no-no, as many with industry knowledge have described the laws/regulation.
Let's go Pens!
 
iairallie
Posts: 2326
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 5:42 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:16 am

Quoting ULMFlyer (Reply 87):
i.e., waiting for the availability of resources, rather than a no-no, as many with industry knowledge have described the laws/regulation.

It is still a no-no I was just pointing out that having security watch the catering process was not a viable solution to the restriction.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
TrvlnMan
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:53 pm

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:44 am

Quoting ULMFlyer (Reply 86):
I don't think anyone in this thread has argued that the US shouldn't be concerned with whoever is coming into the country. On the other hand, you seem to be the only one who thinks it's alright to keep passengers indefinitely on a plane because for some reason the port of entry cannot be changed, and the weather has gone south at the original destination, which seems to be the main reason for the event.

I guess if there's a cabin fire on landing, the crew must wait for authorization to evacuate if they are not at the port of entry (sarcasm).

Now seriously, considering the billions spent by DHS/CBP/USCIS/etc. and the fact that pax info has already been forward by the airline to US authorities, I see no reason why the information cannot be transferred from EWR to BWI and immigration and customs cleared there. If you think there's a good reason for this reg, please enlighten us.I'd love to hear it. As I said, nobody is advocating simply letting the passengers loose in the terminal. But I'm sure they'd be much better off standing in line for a couple of hours to go through immigration, and then grabbing something to eat or drink at the terminal, rather than being stuck without either.

And don't forget about the Americans who were on board. It must have been particularly aggravating to them, being on their own soil and in that gray zone where, technically, their citizenship is not yet applicable. Hence, the lawsuits (obviously against the wrong entity).

Have you read some of the comments on this post?? It has nothing to do with whether I think it's alright to keep them on the plane or not - The fact is that they are required by law to be cleared thru customs and immigration. Why it wasn't possible sooner, I don't know - but it wasn't. Calling federal regulations "asinine" does appear to be a lack of concern. Don't try to spin a disaster into the equasion either - that would obviously require drastic action. Stop trying to create drama - It was NOT an issue in this case! Let's say they were allowed into the terminal to await clearance, and it took hours and hours for them to get processed because BWI wasn't prepared for them - I can guarantee the pax who had no place to sit down for an extended period of time would be complaining about that and would want to sue because CO wouldn't let them just sit and sleep on the plane. As far as Americans onboard - so what! They left the country and are re-entering. This is nothing new. The bottom line is, no matter what the airlines do, it's never going to make everyone happy - They're ALWAYS treating their passengers poorly. (Sarcasm, again). So, don't try to make me out to be some jerk, because regardless of what you may think, I'm a nice guy who thinks they did the best they could.
 yes 
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:53 am

Quoting Trndskywrd (Reply 83):
The article states that the law does not them to deplane without federal inspections to take place. If that was not possible, im sure it would have taken place. What good it is for an airlines to hold you hostage. A sitting plane makes NO money.

FIrst of all, the pax was not held hostage by the airline. Put it this way: that is the government's doing. The law says, I believe, that the point of entry IS at the final destination, NOT the diversion. FULL STOP!

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 84):
International trash has to be disposed of in a special manner.

 checkmark  Yep!

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 84):
I belive it is incinerated.

It is burned. LSG Sky Chefs in PHX burns all international garbage. Anything that is in a red bio-hazard (all garbage) bag is burned.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
ACFA
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:41 pm

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:06 am

Welcome to my respected user list!

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 79):
It's amazing how many people here, who are supposed to be aviation enthusiasts and should know how the industry works, don't know squat about it. You know who you are, and I suggest that you become employed with an airline to see how it really works.

Pilots are not gods who can snap their fingers and produce gate space and immigration officers. They cannot repeal federal law. Flight Attendants are not magicians who can make food and water appear out of thin air.

Those pax who want to sue CO for this.... well, I can't say anything nice about them so I'll keep my mouth shut.
 
tercer
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:55 pm

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:20 am

Quoting 28thguy (Reply 12):
It's not as if they were throwing a fit because they wanted their meal choice was unavailable.

They were subject to FALSE IMPRISONMENT on an aircraft without access to food or working toilets.

I say good for the passengers. The pilot should have been more proactive in demanding a resolution, and good for the passengers in standing up to him and the airport authorities!



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 13):
You'd be wrong then wouldn't you ... as you say

I can't imagine anyone here giving an explanation that would make this anything but totally unacceptable, and just truly unbelievable. How this happens, or is allowed to happen, is beyond me ... and I've been in this business many years ... although to be honest, that's irrelevant.


.. but please try. I'm willing to listen.


Jimbo

A lot of people make the false assumption that the airline is in control of every aspect of the flight, it is not. There are different governing agencies that are in charge: The airport is the local city (usually the port authority), the tower is the FAA, Customs is Immigration, security is the TSA and local police, catering and fuel are usually a subcontracting company, the airspace around the airport is first TRACON then the Center (again the FAA). The airline itself plays its part but is still governed under the rules of all these agencies.

The day of this flight there were Ground Delay Programs (GDP), Ground Stops (GS) and departure delays of +300 minutes for all the major NY airports. This flight, along with others was not only captured in the GDP it was also included in the multiple GS for EWR (all initiated by ATC). The airspace in Washington Center (ZDC) was saturated with inbound aircraft to the NY metros that were flying overhead and because of the weather there was multiple holding stacks for all three airports as well as and internal Ground Stop (initiated by ZDC) from their airspace to the NY Metro area because of the holding.

The NY Metro airports could not depart West or South due to training weather across the region and the because of the gridlock that the three major airports had the flights going north and east could not physically get to the runways. Flights that were landing at JFK/LGA/EWR were experiencing long taxi times to the gate because, again, of the gridlock situation caused by no departures and the +300 minutes taxi times for those departing aircraft.

All in all it was a very bad day for all the airlines including the General Aviation pilots flying in and out of the NY area. This flight first in a bad situation diverting as an international flight as the Customers rules are very precise and clear on the matter and until the officers made a decision to allow the people off into a “clean” and secure environment the airlines hands are tied in the matter. The reason for the armed guards and dogs were not geared towards a group of potentially aggressive passengers but only government protocols to ensure no one or items got into the US unchecked. Again not a situation Continental was in control of.


The flight was stuck on the ground in BWI due to the ongoing weather event in the NY area and was captured in both the GDP and GS. Multiple attempts were made via the ATC Command Center to have this flight released but obviously they were not successful. ATC controls the skies and until ATC clears the flight to go it will sit on the ground, another situation out of Continentals control but not reported about in the news story. Historically diversions get priority for recovery by ATC but the dynamics involved on that day did not allow for this. It is not safe to launch any flight into a holding pattern that you will potentially get a second diversion out of and in fact there were flights that day with multiple diversion and gate returns because of the airborne holding for the NY Airports.

So the flight was not allowed to come back to a gate by immigrations, was fueled and ready to go but not allowed to leave by ATC, depending on were the aircraft was staged ground support might be limited due to City Port restrictions and as far as catering because the flight had not been cleared by customs (not a “clean” aircraft) nothing, including the trash on the aircraft, is allowed off or on per Immigrations rules (again out of Continentals control). The airline did everything it could do to get the flight going but there are Government rules and regulations that the airlines have to abide by that are not within the scope of their control. So while some blame can be assigned to the airlines when these situations occur the appropriate Government agencies that are unwilling to bend on there regulations also need to take some of the culpability too as the airlines are bound by those restrictions just like everyone else.
It's politically sensitive, but it's going to happen.
 
iairallie
Posts: 2326
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 5:42 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:44 pm

Quoting Tercer (Reply 92):
There are different governing agencies that are in charge:

I love those folks on this thread that have made comments along the lines of the Fed needs to get involved make changes. Increased regulation is only going to further bind the hands of the airlines and magnify the impact of situations like this.

An overhaul of the ATC system not an increase in regulation is the solution.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
wukka
Posts: 884
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:08 pm

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:49 pm

The interesting disconnect in this thread is between people who work in aviation and the people who ride in the back.

I can see how those "in the know" are frustrated with delays, but take it as part of the job... and it's easier to do so because you're in charge of the people in the back. It's easy to tell them to relax, especially now that any crew can have anyone removed for looking at them the wrong way. I'm sure it's comforting to them.

The others in the back have no idea what's going on because they've generally been told, "30 minutes and we're out of here". 45 minutes pass and they're told, "30 minutes and we're out of here". I can see how the frustration stacks up, just like the time the crew says, "just a few more minutes." over and over.

So here we are a number of hours later and the people in the back feel trapped, while the crew controls the beverages, snacks, and who can get up to take a piss or have a drink to wash down their meds. The passengers start to feel that they have no more control over anything than the 1.5x2.5 feet of space that they're sitting in, and even that's questionable if those with the control come by and tell you to put your belt back on.

It's a caste system in these situations.

I'll put up with about 3 hours on an RJ holding. After that, I'm going medical over claustrophobia causing a panic attack... and unless Nurse Ballbricker is there with a syringe full of a benzodiazapine, the medics will be coming to take me off the plane. I don't give a shit if I'm missing the last flight to my entire family's funeral.

I'm sure that I'm not the only one that feels this way. If I'm moving (the plane is moving), I'm fine. It's just like not being able to sit at my desk all day without getting up and stepping outside every now and again.

I truly understand both sides, but I sympathize with one more than the other.
We can agree to disagree.
 
Mike89406
Posts: 1424
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RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:11 pm

I can see both sides of the coin here and I truly empathize with both. People are going to take whatever side they feel is right based on their values and beliefs. Its good to be objective and understand the article and situation before making rash judgements.

The truth is we weren't there simple. Its easy to be an armchair CEO or Executive when were hiding behind our various PCs. It is what it is unfortunately this is a growing trend in aviation but the media also jumps on these stories as well I'm sure incidents have happened in the past but we dont hear about every one.

This year it seems like there have been a dramatic increase in delays etc compared to past years but I think you can attribute this to the increase of media presence and technology.

To summarize I know that I would be PO'd going through the situation but it happens. And this is the type of world we live in.
 
ULMFlyer
Posts: 190
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RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:57 pm

Quoting TrvlnMan (Reply 89):
Have you read some of the comments on this post?? It has nothing to do with whether I think it's alright to keep them on the plane or not - The fact is that they are required by law to be cleared thru customs and immigration. Why it wasn't possible sooner, I don't know - but it wasn't. Calling federal regulations "asinine" does appear to be a lack of concern. Don't try to spin a disaster into the equasion either - that would obviously require drastic action. Stop trying to create drama - It was NOT an issue in this case! Let's say they were allowed into the terminal to await clearance, and it took hours and hours for them to get processed because BWI wasn't prepared for them - I can guarantee the pax who had no place to sit down for an extended period of time would be complaining about that and would want to sue because CO wouldn't let them just sit and sleep on the plane. As far as Americans onboard - so what! They left the country and are re-entering. This is nothing new. The bottom line is, no matter what the airlines do, it's never going to make everyone happy - They're ALWAYS treating their passengers poorly. (Sarcasm, again). So, don't try to make me out to be some jerk, because regardless of what you may think, I'm a nice guy who thinks they did the best they could.

But do you think it's alright to keep them on the plane because of not arriving at the planned port of entry or not? This is at the crux of my thinking that this particular regulation is asinine, particularly if it's as inflexible as described by knowledgeable people in this thread. More discretion should be given to USCIS/CBP/airlines to deal with these situations.

I didn't try to make you look like a jerk any more than you seemed to imply that I had no concern for immigration/customs, simply because I called this port of entry regulation asinine. Obviously, I don't want any more than you do for passengers to be deplaned without the proper processing. However, I'm entitled to my own opinion about a regulation that so far in this thread nobody has been able to justify. The sarcastic accident tidbit was clearly nothing but a hyperbole to illustrate the point. I don't see what's so bad about criticizing a bad piece of federal regulation. Many sectors are burdened by them. One doesn't even have to go past TSA screening procedures for blatant examples. An abstract concept of security should not be used to justify everything.

I don't know where I was attempting to create drama. If BWI couldn't handle the extra international passengers, something we don't know whether was the case, then there was nothing to be done. In contrast, if BWI could deal with the diversions, but CO had its hands tied by this port of entry regulation, then there's a problem in my opinion. I'd be happy to change my mind, if someone can provide a logical rationale for why this has to be so. And I agree with you that CO was not to be blamed, and that passengers are too trigger happy these days to blame the airlines. These should, nevertheless, do a better job to communicate the complexities of the aerospace system to passengers. See? I'm a nice guy too Big grin

Quoting Wukka (Reply 94):
Nurse Ballbricker

Classic!  rotfl 
Let's go Pens!
 
User avatar
zippyjet
Posts: 5107
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RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:11 pm

The flight crew in addition to the passengers literally had to bite the pillow and take their screwing. As mentioned, the crew was as left in the dark as the passengers. Especially in this the long summer from hell (for air travel) flying anywhere to and from the northeast PHL through BOS corridor is at best a crap shoot. These big northeast airports, the airspace, air traffic control are thirty years behind the times in dealing with the exponential increase in air traffic. Throw in the federal government's regulations regarding internationl air travel and you have a perscription for chaos. During one of the many instances where BOS had weather/ATC delays we, ground and flight crew and passengers basically had to hurry up and wait to get out. Our air traffic controllers busted their ass with all the air traffic they had to process. We BWI and the other two area airports DCA and IAD usually get stuck with all the northeast diversions. As long as people want to fly in and out of PHL, LGA, JFK and BOS you are going to have delays, snafus and of course the requisite bad weather. As mentioned gas and go stops can be anywhere from 10 minutes on up. In a week or so, I will be flying to MDW nonrev. If I can't nonrev on WN, I'll fly on my own carrier FL. I have a choice from BWI to get to MDW via BOS or ATL. Guess which route
Big version: Width: 462 Height: 150 File size: 17kb
will choose. Hotlanta here I come!

One of the fluff/semi yellow journalism shows Inside Edition or Extra had a story on this incident. Of couse they made sure to show some video with babys screaing but they got one little detail wrong; They said July 29, whereas this thread with the link said July 19.

As long as we let our out of control federal government pass Patriot acts, spend $600 on toilet seats open up our borders and enact bullshit political correctness laws we will still have an air traffic control system with vacum tube equipment that were new when I Love Lucy was a new series and the Lockheed Connies were the jumbo bird of the skies!

Of course, our media conveniently omits similar stories of passenger woes on the governments model of failure Amtrak. Imagine being trapped on a train for hours with no power, between stations Or, being let off in some third world ghetto such as Camden or Newark, NJ. in a weather event. Those stories were from the late 80s or early 90s. But, I believe they still happen today. And what about foreign carriers? You mean to say it's just US airlines that get diverted with passengers and their flight crew stuck on a plane on the ground for hours on end? I'd like to see our news media cover some Amtrak tales of woe and foreign air carriers when they have delays.  hissyfit 
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
ImperialEagle
Posts: 2372
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RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:19 pm

Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 77):
Again, I apologize for my poor spelling.

Its o.k.----nobody's perfect. Yeah sure
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
FlyHoss
Posts: 534
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RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:31 am

What if the diversion had been on a fight from EWR to CCS that diverted to another city in Venezuela? Would we be having this discussion? I suspect the press coverage, and therefore the general level of attention, would have been much smaller. Agree or disagree?
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
Analog
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Passengers Threaten To Sue CO

Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 98):
What if the diversion had been on a fight from EWR to CCS that diverted to another city in Venezuela? Would we be having this discussion? I suspect the press coverage, and therefore the general level of attention, would have been much smaller. Agree or disagree?

You're probably right. Either that or everyone would be blasting Chavez for his government's horrible treatment of the pax. In the end it doesn't really matter what would have happened there. What matters is that the way the flight in question was handled was a major f*#$ up. Whether it's the US CBP's fault or CO, or both, things need to be changed (but probably won't).

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