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thebigz
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Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:29 am

For the first time in my life I have been denied boarding. No, the plane was not full. No, I did not check in late. No, I was not drunk, smelly, unruly etc... Reason: my laptop. Or at least that was the official reason.

A few days ago I was to fly Arkia Israel Airlines to Tel Aviv - BG - for a vacation in Jerusalem. I am a white European man with no connection to Israel or the occupied territories.

But no, the security guys interrogated me for an hour before check in. Sure, I had expected it since it was an Israeli airline. But then the so called "security manager" told me: "Before we continue the process: you will not be flying with the laptop". Why, I asked. "Security reasons". What security reasons I asked... "Security reasons. You will not be flying with the laptop".

The thing is, my laptop was in my carry-on luggage and did not pose a problem 40 minutes earlier when the junior security agent asked me to open my luggage. He noticed the laptop "ah, a laptop and some books, may I see the books please". He was terrified to find a saudi novel in English: "Girls of Riyadh" by Rajaa Alsanea. (Good book by the way). "Why are you reading a book about Saudi Arabia? Why are you interested in the situation of Arab women?"

Anyway, the security manager ordered the junior guy to save all info about me. They all had pda:s connected to who-knows-what. He took my passport, my tickets, my personal papers etc and made notes about it in his pda.

What I am supposed to do with the laptop I asked the manager. "Not my problem. You will not fly with your laptop."

To sum up: I was basically denied boarding with my laptop even before it had a chance to put it thru x-ray screening and security check. Nobody even touched it....

So, I did not fly Arkia since I did not want to ditch my computer... Therefore, technically I was not denied boarding. I ELECTED not to fly without my laptop. In my world this is as close to denied boarding as you can get.

Any comments out there? Please tell me my laptop was not the problem! Surely the must have something against me? (Yes, my passport is full of arabic stamps...)

Another question: what is the connection between Shin Bet (Shabak) (=Israeli FBI) and EL AL, Arkia and Israir Security? Some say it is the same thing, some say the two is interconnected, some say they are different organisations.... Am I now "persona non grata" in Israel?
 
georgiaame
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:36 am

You were not denied boarding. Your laptop was. I am not about to second guess Israeli security, but if they were uncomfortable, that ends it. Put the laptop in your checked suitcase, and carry the Saudi book on board.

No one will put a gun to your head and force you to fly Arkia in the future. But you can be sure that you will arive where you expect to arrive the next time you do.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
thebigz
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:38 am

"You will not be flying with your laptop. You have to leave it... "
 
swiftski
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:42 am

Quoting TheBigZ (Reply 2):
"You will not be flying with your laptop. You have to leave it... "

My Girlfriend is Belgian (& Jewish) who travels to TLV regularly ex BRU, LHR and STN, plus of course vice versa.

She travels each time with her laptop.

She has also flown domestically in Israel with her laptop.

I understand your disappointment.
 
dlphoenix
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:26 am

My experience with the Security policy on Israeli flights is that they are focused exclusively on security, and they would rather be safe than sory. Personaly, I am thankful for this aproach.
The outcome of this aproach is that they occasionaly inconvenience innocent customers and lose business.
As for their reluctance to clasify your case as "denied boarding" - seems like you could use a good lawyer.
 
silentbob
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:37 am

Quoting TheBigZ (Thread starter):
He was terrified to find a saudi novel in English:



Quoting TheBigZ (Thread starter):
Yes, my passport is full of arabic stamps...

I think you already found the answer on your own.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:43 am

Sounds to me like you are indeed a "persona non grata" in Israel, and I would expect that the passport "full of arabic stamps" has a lot to do with it. Given your extensive travel in the Arab world, it is also quite possible that someone you met at some time was not a friend of Israel in the Israeli government's eyes, and your name came up in the computers as having been linked in some way.

I wonder if they would have let you on the plane if you would have willingly left your computer behind?
 
hamad
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:43 am

well, what is wrong with visiting arabic countries? it just sounds ridiculous to me. my cousin was a law student at american university, a graduate. then he had on his laptop all these things about american immigrations new policy, he got stopped at amsterdam, however, he showed them his school documents and he was let go.

what is wrong with reading abook about saudi girls.. i understand if the book topic was "how to blow an airplane", but i have read that book, it talks about saudi girls opression.

ignorance is just all over the place
PHX - i miss spotting
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:51 am

..still,some of the security staff behave like racist,god like divas and clearly love to show their "power" .
Usually the older the staff are,the more comprehensive they seem.
I've travelled to Israel with laptop some times without problem.But had a problem with my Arab visas and a Cairo-issued passport.
While I do understand security concerns,I do not agree on over-the-top ruling of minor things that potentially lead to denied boarding.Your case was clearly a badly interpreted training lesson .While everybody seems to agree on strict security checks,nobody dares to criticize any of the security staff ,even if they are at fault. It's not because they are Israelis they have more rights than other nationals.
That's the reason I don't return to Israel-I'm fed up to be treated like some terrorist scum...

[Edited 2007-08-16 21:52:47]
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:12 am

It was the combination of many Arab stamps in passport, Arab books, and the laptop which created your problem.

Several components of a laptop can in a scanner be hard to tell from more dangerous things.

It is waste of time to (try to) negotiate with Israeli security managers. They tell us their decisions, and that's it. So far they have been successful doing a very difficult job, we can't argue about that. It's also a question about time and convenience. They didn't have the time to disassemble your laptop and take the inconvenience in case it didn't work again after re-assembly.

We all have to be very cautious when traveling in that part of the world. The total sum of your neglects of that principle just tripped the threshold.

Did you get an Israeli stamp in your passport? If that was the case, then it is waste of money to buy a ticket to an Arab country until you have got a new passport.

One good advise when passing Israeli security: Always tell them the exact truth answering every question. They may ask questions which seem stupid, which may seem irritating and may lead you into answering with shortcuts. These guys are not very interested in the answers you give. Instead they watch your body language extremely carefully. Their sequence of questions are designed to lead you into traps if you are not 100% honest.

Being 100% honest you save their time - and your own time as well. Time which they can spend on your fellow passengers instead, making your flight marginally safer.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Wsp
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:12 am

This happened in Sweden or in Israel ?
 
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LTU932
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:19 am

Quoting HAMAD (Reply 7):
well, what is wrong with visiting arabic countries? it just sounds ridiculous to me.

It is ridiculous, but it's a similar thing the other way around. You may get in trouble in Arab countries and in Iran if you arrive with a passport that has an Israeli immigration stamp, hence why people either travel with a different passport to Israel or, ask the immigration officer to make the stamp on a piece of paper and temporarily clip it to the passport.

It's unfortunate that such things happen, and I still wish to see the countries of the Middle East, including Israel, living in peaceful coexistence with each other and with a relationship based on mutual cooperation, but that won't happen anytime soon.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
Gabrielz
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:23 am

Let's just put this into perspective.

We don't exactly know why the OP was denied boarding, but it was not for any "protected" reason - such as his race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, nationality or other immutable, inherent or uncontrollable action.

He was denied boarding because the security apparatus felt that he had an object in his possession that made them uncomfortable. It doesn't sound like a power trip, or even a punitive action (which we've all been a party to at one time or another).

As for being on an Israeli blacklist, I'm pretty sure that you'll be extensively questioned the next time you try to travel to Israel, but you can probably still go...just as they offered you the chance to go today (which you declined). So, they're comfortable with you entering Israel yourself, just not all your property.  Smile

 
thebigz
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:30 am

Well, I had sort of accepted this if I was in Israel or anywhere else in the Middle East or USA. Problem is that this was on my turf, before check-in at ARN (Stockholm-Arlanda, Sweden), 35 km from my home.

To make things more interesting, the security manager (unable to speak one word of Swedish) had an airport badge issued by the Stockholm Police Dept. and not the Swedish CAA which would be the normal thing. No name, no photo: just a number on the badge. When I asked him what his name was his answer was "Avi... A-V-I... That is all you need to know."

Problem for Avi is that in Sweden we have the fantastic "offentlighetsprincip" i.e. his badge information is public record. That story is to be continued. Avi=shin bet or Avi=Arkia or Avi = ? Or Avi´s badge is suddenly classified because of national security?

Still: my vacation was ruined even if I got all my money back. And I am probably never going to be allowed into Israel. ...
 
UN_B732
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:39 am

There's someone here who claims his parents own Arkia. I would send a message to that guy and seeif you can get in touch with management and get an argument as to why you were deprived of travel rights.
Just because a nation is afraid, doesn't mean you should be deprived of the possibliity to visit.
-A
What now?
 
Wsp
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:50 am

Quoting TheBigZ (Reply 13):
To make things more interesting, the security manager (unable to speak one word of Swedish) had an airport badge issued by the Stockholm Police Dept. and not the Swedish CAA which would be the normal thing. No name, no photo: just a number on the badge. When I asked him what his name was his answer was "Avi... A-V-I... That is all you need to know."

I think you need to call a lawyer to get this sorted out. This Avi guy seems to be working in some pseudo official capacity and can't tell you the legal basis for his decisions to restrict your rights and cause you to incur financial losses. I would be surprised if the Swedish legal system allowed for such a travesty.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:01 am

Quoting TheBigZ (Reply 13):
Problem for Avi is that in Sweden we have the fantastic "offentlighetsprincip" i.e. his badge information is public record. That story is to be continued. Avi=shin bet or Avi=Arkia or Avi = ? Or Avi´s badge is suddenly classified because of national security?

Avi is a generic name given by Israeli security agents of all agencies. Think of it as an American telling you his name is John.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
dlphoenix
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:02 am

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 14):
There's someone here who claims his parents own Arkia. I would send a message to that guy and seeif you can get in touch with management and get an argument as to why you were deprived of travel rights.

The security service does not report to the airlines (hence its isolation from commercial bias when making security decisions.
The owner or CEO of Arkia has therfore no authority, and no responsibility in this case.

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 14):
Just because a nation is afraid, doesn't mean you should be deprived of the possibliity to visit.

That is correct, and I beleive BigZ will be allowed to enter Israel (if he hasn't lost his appetite for being humiliated) .
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:03 am

Quoting TheBigZ (Reply 13):
When I asked him what his name was his answer was "Avi...

It adds up to your total sum of neglects of the principles for a successful trip to Israel. Asking suck a question (the answer to which has no value for you) shows that you have been in sort of affect, which makes it a lot harder for the security manager to read your body language properly. Don't do that. It makes his job more difficult.

By the way, the first name of one of my best Israeli friends is exactly Avi. (But the real name of this guy was most likely not Avi - would be like a Swede to call himself Göran Medelsvensson).

Quoting TheBigZ (Reply 13):
Problem for Avi is that in Sweden we have the fantastic "offentlighetsprincip" i.e. his badge information is public record.

Not so. Legally speaking the area, where you were questioned, is international area, which was temporarily governed by Israeli law. So forget about the Swedish "offentlighetsprincip". You were out of area.

Too bad that you missed that trip to a fantastic and very interesting country. I do hope that you will get over it and make another trip one day. At least you have here got a wealth of good advise from all over the world about how to make a successful trip to Israel.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
RussianJet
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 1):
You were not denied boarding. Your laptop was.

Did you not read his post properly? He knows that, he made it abundantly clear.

Security my A$$. Difficult as it may be to scan a laptop sometimes, nobody can seriously tell me that the Israeli security services won't be able to examine a laptop and tell whether it's a physical danger or not. They just took a disliking to him because of his passport history and stamps - and that has no bearing whatsoever on whether he poses a physical danger to the flight. This outright sucks.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
thebigz
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:22 am

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 18):
Quoting TheBigZ (Reply 13):
When I asked him what his name was his answer was "Avi...

It adds up to your total sum of neglects of the principles for a successful trip to Israel. Asking suck a question (the answer to which has no value for you) shows that you have been in sort of affect, which makes it a lot harder for the security manager to read your body language properly. Don't do that. It makes his job more difficult.

I only asked for his name AFTER he de facto denied me boarding. That info was of use to me since my travel agent (an israeli-swedish travel agency) obviously knew who "Avi" was when I called them to get a refund. I got it without questions after they called Avi... By the way: I cannot understand how landside checkin in Sweden legally can be considered Israeli territory... I doubt it.

[Edited 2007-08-16 23:28:28]
 
SA7700
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:27 am

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 18):
Legally speaking the area, where you were questioned, is international area, which was temporarily governed by Israeli law.

Forgive my ignorance, but how on earth can it be governed by Israeli law when he did not pass Swedish customs? He was on Swedish soil and was interrogated before check-in.


Rgds

SA7700
When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
 
RussianJet
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:29 am

Quoting TheBigZ (Reply 20):
I cannot understand how landside checkin in Sweden legally can be considered Israeli territory... I doubt it.

It's not. Unfortunately that has nothing to do with it. The airline simply carries whoever the security services 'advise' them to, or not carry, as the case may be.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
teva
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:33 am

This man was just stupid and overreacting.
I have been to Israel several times in the last 10 years, from either CDG or FRA. (last time was in August/September 06, not exactly what can be considered as a quiet time in Israel....)
I always had a laptop with me.
My passport has stamps from DXB and other muslim countries.
Every time I arrive in TLV, I ask the police not to stamp my passport, because I know that I can enter in Israel with Arabic stamps on my passport, but I will be denied entry in some countries if I have an Israeli stamp.
Due to this, I have sometimes more questions, to explain the stamps.
They check the pages of my books.
But I never had problems with the laptop. The "worse" I had was to switch it on on 2 different trips

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 18):
Not so. Legally speaking the area, where you were questioned, is international area, which was temporarily governed by Israeli law. So forget about the Swedish "offentlighetsprincip". You were out of area.

If it was before check-in, it is in the public are of the airport, not the international arrea. As a result, local laws apply.

And about the "Avi's", this reminds me of an instance where I was on the ramp side, in CDG, doing my job far away from the parking, and especially from any ELAL plane, and one of those approached me, and introduced himself as "airport police". He wanted me to move to another place. Then I just told him politely that with his badge and type of car, he was not working for the french Gendarmerie, that no "airport police" exists in CDG, and that if he wanted, I could call the gendarmerie, and we could talk together about the issue. He didn't insist and left...

Teva
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:42 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 19):
Difficult as it may be to scan a laptop sometimes, nobody can seriously tell me that the Israeli security services won't be able to examine a laptop and tell whether it's a physical danger or not. They just took a disliking to him because of his passport history and stamps - and that has no bearing whatsoever on whether he poses a physical danger to the flight.

I think you are right, RussianJet. Avi stumbled over one "too time consuming customer". And Israel doesn't have unlimied resources for security. But your leading sentence...

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 19):
Security my A$$.

...that is one attitude to Israeli security systems. And it is one attitude which will for ever keep you out of that country. If you really want to visit Israel, then cooperation with security is paramount. I think that counts for every country in the world, but for historically well documented reasons Israel is on a level of magnitude of its own.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
thebigz
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:49 am

But what would have happened if I had flown CSA or KLM as I first planned? I bet that Avi would not have been at the CSA desk at ARN! Would I have been stopped at TLV then?

[Edited 2007-08-16 23:50:23]
 
dutchjet
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 24):
If you really want to visit Israel, then cooperation with security is paramount. I think that counts for every country in the world, but for historically well documented reasons Israel is on a level of magnitude of its own

I think that this sentence says it all.......

I am American, I am White, I am Jewish, and I have been subject to some serious discussions with Israeli security: I travelled to Israel with a newly issued US passport (my old Passport had just expired, nothing more complicated than that) and the security team was skeptical and questioned me for an extended period. Yes, Israeli security agents are tough and can even be annoying, troublesome, difficult, overbearing and obnoxious, but that is because they have to be.

I dont know what the real problem was with the OP and his laptop......its something that none of us, including the OP, can completely figure out. Something was problematic and compromise or negotiation are not options: the laptop was not going on that airplane for some unknown reason. The OP can visit Israel in the future (he is not banned from visiting the country) if he so desires, but be prepared for ""heightened security"" atleast on the first airplane trip into the country and maybe a few extra questions at immigration control.
 
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Tugger
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:59 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 26):
I dont know what the real problem was with the OP and his laptop......its something that none of us, including the OP, can completely figure out. Something was problematic and compromise or negotiation are not options: the laptop was not going on that airplane for some unknown reason.

Could they have had issues with files that may have been on it? Can't see that as being viable since you can just email stuff there if you wish (Israel doesn't have a "great firewall" like China has does it?).

Just curious.

Tug

[Edited 2007-08-17 00:00:16]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
RussianJet
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting Teva (Reply 23):
This man was just stupid and overreacting.

How do you work that one out? They told him he couldn't fly with it. Or maybe you just think he's making the whole thing up? Fine, it hasn't happened to you - I believe that. However, just because you haven't had such a problem doesn't mean it couldn't or didn't happen to him, and to call him supid without being there or knowing more about it is rude and disrespectful in the extreme.

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 24):
...that is one attitude to Israeli security systems. And it is one attitude which will for ever keep you out of that country. If you really want to visit Israel, then cooperation with security is paramount. I think that counts for every country in the world, but for historically well documented reasons Israel is on a level of magnitude of its own.

I know what you're saying, but the fact I think the whole thing is rubbish doesn't mean I wouldn't give them my full cooperation if I had to go to Israel. Believe me, I know that cooperation and politeness must go without saying at all stages of airport travel. For the time being at least the only thing that's going to keep me out of Israel is the fact that I have zero need or desire to go there.  Smile
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
RussianJet
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:06 am

Quoting TheBigZ (Reply 25):
But what would have happened if I had flown CSA or KLM as I first planned? I bet that Avi would not have been at the CSA desk at ARN! Would I have been stopped at TLV then?

No, probably he wouldn't. However, you chose to fly with an Israeli airline and experience the harsh security regime that goes with that. Doesnt't make it fair though.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
dutchjet
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:07 am

Quoting TheBigZ (Reply 25):
But what would have happened if I had flown CSA or KLM as I first planned?

You and your lap top probably would have made it to Israel as scheduled without problems.....but security procedures for CSA or KLM, even on flights to/from Israel, are different than those utilized by Israel carriers for rather obvious reasons.

Quoting TheBigZ (Reply 25):
I bet that Avi would not have been at the CSA desk at ARN! Would I have been stopped at TLV then?

Please, please dont take this the wrong way, but the fact that you dont take ""Avi"" seriously is part of the problem....Israeli security is a serious matter and their agents expect that you, as a passenger on a flight to Israel, also accept that security is a serious matter. This could have been part of your problem. As for immigration, I am sure you would have been questioned about the stamps from other Middle Eastern countries in your passport and you would have been asked about your past travels and why you plan to visit Israel now, etc, etc. It probably would be a long discussion....its part of the deal.
 
goldorak
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:10 am

This laptop issue happened to several (native French) people I know (seperate trips, airlines, etc). So it's more frequent than you think. It always happened leaving Israel and their laptop had been delivered at home or office 2 or 3 days after. I'm sure that this has nothing to do with security but only for business intelligence purposes ( I mean, a copy of the hard drive content is probably done). You may think I'm paranoid and may be you're right !  Wink  Big grin
 
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Tugger
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:15 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 28):
Quoting Teva (Reply 23):
This man was just stupid and overreacting.

How do you work that one out? They told him he couldn't fly with it.

I read that as Teva saying the Israeli security guy was overreacting not TheBigZ. If you read the rest of his email I think that's what he meant.

Tug
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
RussianJet
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:20 am

Quoting Tugger (Reply 32):
I read that as Teva saying the Israeli security guy was overreacting not TheBigZ. If you read the rest of his email I think that's what he meant.

Ah, you may well be right there - perhaps it's a little ambiguous. Teva, if that's what you in fact meant then please accept my apologies for the misunderstanding. Tugger, thanks for pointing it out.

I think a lot of this probably does just come down to getting the wrong guy questioning you on the wrong day in the wrong mood.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
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scbriml
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:39 am

Quoting HAMAD (Reply 7):
well, what is wrong with visiting arabic countries?

Absolutely nothing, but some Arabic countries will deny entry to folks with Israeli entry stamps in their passport.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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Tugger
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RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:44 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 34):
Quoting HAMAD (Reply 7):
well, what is wrong with visiting arabic countries?

Absolutely nothing, but some Arabic countries will deny entry to folks with Israeli entry stamps in their passport.

Can an Israeli citizen enter an Arab country?

Tug
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:48 am

Quoting Tugger (Reply 35):
Can an Israeli citizen enter an Arab country?

Depends which one. Egypt, for example, yes. Syria - no. Also, it's not just arab countries there are issues with, also other muslim countries.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10163
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:57 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 36):
Also, it's not just arab countries there are issues with, also other muslim countries.

Ah yes, Thanks RussianJet.
And let me quickly add that I am just curious not trying to make an issue out of anything, not pointing fingers at Arab or Muslim countries. We here in the USA can't travel to the evil isle of Cuba, so there are lots of issues countries have with each other.

Tug
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
itsnotfinals
Posts: 1573
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:51 am

RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:00 am

Quoting TheBigZ (Thread starter):
Before we continue the process: you will not be flying with the laptop". Why, I asked. "Security reasons". What security reasons I asked... "Security reasons. You will not be flying with the laptop".

I had the same issue (almost) in June flying on LO from TLV to WAW. I was told I could not have my laptop bag on the plane and would have to check it which I did not object to, although I though it was odd. I got to the airport only 1 hour before my flight (I know better) so that may have had something to do with it. Israeli Security agreed to process me even though I was late, but LO would not let me fly.

I bought a new ticket on OS later that day, and went through security again, and no one said anything about my laptop travelling seperately, although I got a very nice private room treatment since I had bought a new ticket only 5 hours before my flight.  Smile

I wouldn't worry too much about it, Israeli security is known for being thorough and it sure beats the alternative.
Speedbird 178 Heavy, FINAL runway 27L
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7043
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:15 am

Quoting TheBigZ (Reply 20):
I only asked for his name AFTER he de facto denied me boarding. That info was of use to me since my travel agent (an israeli-swedish travel agency) obviously knew who "Avi" was when I called them to get a refund. I got it without questions after they called Avi... By the way: I cannot understand how landside checkin in Sweden legally can be considered Israeli territory... I doubt it.

Okay, things may vary according to local conditions. When I have been questioned by Israeli security, then it was i a separate room with only Israeli security officers present. I wouldn't judge whether it was landside or rampside, it was a special Israeli security facility. Followed by ordinary local security, followed by a final Israeli, physical security check at the gate immediately prior to boarding.

In the old days twenty years ago it did not end there. At that time the airport boundaries were less carefully guarded, and during taxi and take-off run the plane was followed by a military vehicle at each wingtip with a manned machine gun on the roof. Well, at some stage of the take-off run they fell behind.

Then as a last resort there are the armed security people on board. I never identified them. They were probably the "Avi" of next day.

In any case, nowhere in the world will an Israeli airliner take off unless Israeli security had total control of their own security procedures. But in case I had become unruly or violent in that room, then I would expect to be prosecuted according to local law.

It's of course a complicated mixture. But the Israeli security officers do their security related job according to Israeli law. And Swedish "offentlighetsprincip" does not apply.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Wsp
Posts: 356
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 7:43 am

RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:28 am

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 18):
Not so. Legally speaking the area, where you were questioned, is international area, which was temporarily governed by Israeli law. So forget about the Swedish "offentlighetsprincip". You were out of area.

This is just outright wrong. There is no square millimetre on that airport that is not governed by Swedish law.

Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 9):
It was the combination of many Arab stamps in passport, Arab books, and the laptop which created your problem.

Several components of a laptop can in a scanner be hard to tell from more dangerous things.

It is waste of time to (try to) negotiate with Israeli security managers. They tell us their decisions, and that's it. So far they have been successful doing a very difficult job, we can't argue about that.

It seems you completely misunderstand the purpose of security services. The job that these guys are tasked with is to make sure that travellers including TheBigZ arrive safely at their destination including whatever number of laptops they choose to take with them. TheBigZ never arrived in Israel. The work of the security in this case was an outright failure.

This is what the terrorists want, that everyone lives in fear, that people think hard three times before they go on a vacation or business trip to Israel. Well in this case they won without lifting a finger.
 
georgiaame
Posts: 1024
Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:55 am

RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:28 am

Funny, had it been me stopped in Sweden, my reaction to the guy would have been "are you meshugah?" And when the answer came back "no, I'm not" my reply would then have been "may I go back and check the computer?" There would have been one of two replies: "yes, you can. Shalom and have a good flight" Or "no, you may not, Shalom and have a good day"

There is much more to our whining Swedish friend's story. I for one stand four square with Israeli security. They smelled something funny, and acted 100% appropriately. If our Arab cousins on this board are offended, on behalf of Avi and half the Israeli public, I humbly apologize. If the world and our ever progressive moderator are also offended, I apologize yet again.

Now go deal with reality.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:41 am

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 41):
There is much more to our whining Swedish friend's story.

You don't know that.

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 41):
They smelled something funny, and acted 100% appropriately.

And you clearly don't know that either.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7043
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:42 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 30):
...the fact that you dont take ""Avi"" seriously is part of the problem....Israeli security is a serious matter and their agents expect that you, as a passenger on a flight to Israel, also accept that security is a serious matter.

Amen! It can't be said in a better way, dear Dutchjet.

And dear BigZ, it seems to me that you somehow got overwhelmed by the unexpected. Now you know how it is, and you can go and have an extremely interesting experience visiting Israel. Just do it.

You will meet a lot of "Avi's", both in the air and on the ground. Don't let them irritate you. Think about them as they in reality are: Clever, well educated and hard working people working for your safety and comfort.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4704
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:48 am

Considering how they treat so many of their own citizens, it's probably worth a pass anyway. Sounds like a lovely place not to be.
What the...?
 
iairallie
Posts: 2326
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 5:42 am

RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:51 am

Quoting HAMAD (Reply 7):
well, what is wrong with visiting arabic countries? it just sounds ridiculous to me.

No more ridiculous than the fact that several Arab nations will not allow entry with Israeli stamps in your passport.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4704
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:10 am

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 45):

...so it's ok to punish people who've visited them...?
What the...?
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7043
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2000 6:25 am

RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:21 am

Quoting Tugger (Reply 27):
Could they have had issues with files that may have been on it? Can't see that as being viable since you can just email stuff there if you wish (Israel doesn't have a "great firewall" like China has does it?).

Dear Tug, you can rule that out. Israel is a normal democratic country with free information flow.

Like any other country there is of course information, which is illegal to store and distribute. Military secrets, underage pornography and such.

That doesn't mean that you have every harddisk, papersheet, CD ROM, memorystick, film roll, web access - or email, snail mail - etc. scanned for illegal information.

But as in the USA, and all other normal countries, put illegal information on your web server, and you have a pretty good chance to end up behind iron curtains.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
iairallie
Posts: 2326
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 5:42 am

RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:23 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 46):
...so it's ok to punish people who've visited them...?

I never said that or anything remotely like that. I said that one policy was no more ridiculous than the other. Don't put words into my mouth.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Laptop Equals Denied Boarding: IsraelSec

Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:27 am

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 45):

No more ridiculous than the fact that several Arab nations will not allow entry with Israeli stamps in your passport.



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 46):

...so it's ok to punish people who've visited them...?

Please consider that persons that have an Israeli stamp in their passports are automatically denied entry into certain Arab nations, while persons that have stamps from Arab nations in their passports are NOT denied entry into Israel....Israeli immigration and security will give the person who has visited or has connections to those Arab nations ""special attention"" and will ask that person lots and lots of questions but, if everything checks out with the person and security and immigration are satisfied with the person's answers and details, he or she will be admitted to Israel.

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