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HowSwedeitis
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:11 pm

The video from the helicopter, (On BBC) shows what looks like people running away on the tarmac. (Behind the tail of the plane) Are those the PAX?
Heja Sverige!!
 
198467
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:29 pm

I do not think those are PAX, they looked more like foam to me..
When you play, people stare. When you work, people don't care.
 
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jetfuel
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:48 pm

Quoting Carfield (Reply 46):
All the TW-based 738s (12 CI, 3 Mandarin Airlines AE, and 1 TW Air Force (actually their air force one) will undergo special checks

I wonder what they are going to check??? You need to know what you are checking for
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
climb1
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:35 pm

Just been watching that video from the link on the first post (NHK). The eyewitness video that shows the moment of the explosion. It does look pretty close, thank god everyone got out in time.

One question I ask about that video, if you watch it right at the point of the explosion, it looks as if someone is leaving the cockpit window!!! I know that the video isnt great quality so thats why I wanted another opinion. But it looks as if someone "drops" from the cockpit window and runs......scary!
In my eyes the Boeing 747 will ALWAYS be the queen of the skies!
 
Markhkg
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:41 pm

Quoting Climb1 (Reply 53):
One question I ask about that video, if you watch it right at the point of the explosion, it looks as if someone is leaving the cockpit window!!! I know that the video isnt great quality so thats why I wanted another opinion. But it looks as if someone "drops" from the cockpit window and runs......scary!

Is that at all surprising? There are escape ropes in the 737 cockpit for the flight crew to use in an evacuation, and the side window slides open, albeit it is not the preferred method of escape.
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
B747-4U3
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:43 pm

B-18616...that was just released in a special Herpa Wings 1/500 scale 3 pack for inflight sales on China Airlines flights. I guess they'll have to re-release that with a different reg soon. Oh well...something else for me to waste my money on.
 
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JohnKrist
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:54 pm

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 54):
There are escape ropes in the 737 cockpit for the flight crew to use in an evacuation, and the side window slides open, albeit it is not the preferred method of escape.

And if you look in the image in post 43 you can clearly see the rope hanging out of the cockpit window.

Thank god all went OK!
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EDICHC
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:04 pm

Quoting Carfield (Reply 46):
There were lots of accounts, but I won't take it very seriously for now... one passenger reported that the captain made an announcement 15 minutes prior to arrival, and then they heard a "thump" sound and smelt something burning... they made an emergency landing and did the emergency evacuation...

I appreciate that this is an unverified account from a passenger but this does not add up. if something was evidently wrong that early and burning could be smelled prior to an emergency landing, it begs the following questions. Why did the Capt not stop and order the emergency evac once immediately clear of the runway? Where were the airport fire service? They should have been prepared and been in attendance at the a/c within seconds.

Absolutely outstanding performance by the cabin crew though for an excellent job!
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jetfuel
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:08 pm

Japan's transport ministry said the fire started in an engine on the left wing of the plane after an oil leak.

Somehow that seems to simple
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
EMA747
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:22 pm

Just read this. What a lucky escape for the pax, could have beeen another very grim day for avaition. Sad to see such a nice bird lost in the this way, though it looks like it did it's job and contained the fire for long enough for the pax to escape, just like the AF incident.

Just to check I got this right but the plane burst into flame after it was parked/shut down not while in taxi. If there had been a fire or some problem during the landing or something surely someone would have noticed the plane smoking or burning as it taxied? This may even be the case but just not reported in the media.  Wink

I know we need to wait for some official statement but I just wanted to ask what happens during the engine shutdown phase regarding fuel pumps? Could they spark or something? Or something similar in the engine itself?
Failing doesn’t make you a failure. Giving up and refusing to try again does!
 
davidkunzVIE
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:45 pm

DH3 DH4 CR1 CR2 CR7 CR9 F70 732 733 734 73G 738 752 762 763 772 742 743 319 320 321 333 343
 
levent
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:49 pm

Quoting RichM (Reply 13):
This is not a plane crash.

Exactly. I was watching the reports on Channel News Asia this morning and the news anchor kept saying that the plane had crashed... very annoying. Also, the two reporters (one in Taipei and the other in Japan) clearly didn't know much about aviation at all, using all kinds of wrong terms to describe the situation. One of them continued by stating how unsafe China Airlines is to fly with. We all know that they do have a higher than average incident record, but still I don't think it's acceptable for a journalist to make such statements without knowing anything about the causes.
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Na

Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:19 pm

Quoting Levent (Reply 61):
One of them continued by stating how unsafe China Airlines is to fly with

Do the facts prove otherwise?

China Airlines has in no uncertain terms the worst safety record of a major airline operating from a developed country or territory (depending on your political viewpoint ). I pay double to fly CX instead of them HKG-BKK. Now whether this accident is just continued bad luck or due to a fault that can be blamed on CI remains to be seen...

[Edited 2007-08-20 14:23:06]
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:23 pm

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 36):
I'm particularly impressed that despite the proximity to the flames, the slides did not deflate, again thanks to safety enhancements during the past 20 years.

Here is another pic' released by the AP:
Big version: Width: 512 Height: 312 File size: 46kb
AP Image: China Air 737-800 @Okinawa

Amazingly no one was injured in this mishap!
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:24 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 42):
Quoting BRxxx (Reply 19):
Taiwan news reports say that the pilot didn't know about the fire until the ground staff told him

& no fire warning.

The engine fire warning system only covers the part of the engine where the gearbox is, and up under the cowlings. The inside of the engine is on fire all the time (or it would not work!) There could easily be engine damage inside the engine, the engine continued to run (but oil fumes got into the aircraft via the air conditioning) but all the flames went out the jet pipe. Then when the aircraft stopped, and the engine was shut down, the fire burnt up through the engine and into the wing. A jet pipe fire is not indicated in the cockpit.
 
cricket
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:26 pm

Will they be able to salvage any parts from this aircraft?
been there, flown that
 
767Lover
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:49 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 41):
Lastly, whether this accident is by just chance or luck, this goes to show the abysmal safety record of China Airlines.



Quoting Carfield (Reply 46):
this incident definitely raises concern again for its safety record and related matter.

Then again, the crew managed to evacuate everyone quickly and safely, so in that case --without knowing what caused the fire -- I would say the safety performance was right-on.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:51 pm

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 49):

Does anyone know if this aircraft had a fuel tank inerting system installed?

It did not. There are only two 737NG's with fuel tank inerting flying today.

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 49):
One of the safety studies that I read indicated that such a system would protect passengers in such a situation (in the very least, delaying the onset of an explosion) after a post-crash fire.

Fuel tank inerting doesn't help you once a fire has started, since it's already failed at that point. It's only there to prevent a fire. It's really not designed to work in a post-crash environment anyway (although this wasn't a post-crash event).

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 49):
Is anybody also curious if this new technology might have saved lives during this accident?

Given that no lives have been reported lost in this event, I don't see how it could have saved any.

Tom.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:55 pm

Quoting Jetfuel (Reply 58):
Japan's transport ministry said the fire started in an engine on the left wing of the plane after an oil leak.

Makes no sense.

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 64):
Then when the aircraft stopped, and the engine was shut down, the fire burnt up through the engine and into the wing. A jet pipe fire is not indicated in the cockpit.

Exactly what Im saying.You have a fire on the powerplant & the crew dont know.What about EGT.The fire warning would come on some time when the Fire detector senses the temperature rise even as you say the fire is Internal.
How would the crew not know.What about the Technical staff on ground.

Quoting Cricket (Reply 65):
Will they be able to salvage any parts from this aircraft

Quite a few could be salvaged.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Bozo
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:02 pm

Virtus Et Honor - S.P.Q.R.
 
cricket
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:08 pm

My god, the videos are quite dramatic.. the plane must've been fully-fuelled for the return trip as well..
been there, flown that
 
sandrozrh
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:24 pm

The video in the original poster's link indeed suggests that the engine was the cause of the fire. Click the link, there's a video link on the right side of the headline.
 
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yowza
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:44 pm

Holy shit those pictures are quite scary. Imagine being a nervous flyer and rolling up to the gate to see that wreckage parked next to the plane you are about to take!



YOWza
 
airbazar
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:59 pm

Quoting Seamefly (Reply 26):
So to those of you who thinks that FA job is just to serve peanuts and coke, I hope this would shut you up! Our primary job is your safety. To get your A** out of a burning plane!

Nah, only American FA's  duck 
I do hope that this accident finaly puts to rest the misconception that the pleasant FA's normaly hired by Asian carriers can actually save your A** out of a burning plane.
 
calvin99
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:06 pm

good that noone is injured... but quite sad to see the B738 being consumed by the flame..!!

slightly off topic... the news in HK is reporting that CI will be grounding all B738... is it true?? Can anyone confirm this?

The reason I am asking this is because my cousin will be flying KUL-HKG on the 22th and according to CI website it will be opereated by B738. And if indeed the B738 is grounded... how will this affect CI operations??
 
movingtin
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:25 pm

Quoting Brenintw (Reply 38):
engines are designed to ingest birds with minimal damage.

I wouldn't say "minimal damage". they are designed to contain any failure of blades and continue to run. Most large bird strike events end up being an Engine change.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 42):
Quoting BRxxx (Reply 19):
Taiwan news reports say that the pilot didn't know about the fire until the ground staff told him

& no fire warning.

As previously mentioned, Fire warning does NOT show a tail pipe fire. It will only indicate a fire between the core of the engine and the cowling.

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 49):
Does anyone know if this aircraft had a fuel tank inerting system installed? (For some reason, I'm thinking it does because it is a 737NG plane.) One of the safety studies that I read indicated that such a system would protect passengers in such a situation (in the very least, delaying the onset of an explosion) after a post-crash fire.

Is anybody also curious if this new technology might have saved lives during this accident?

Inerting will only keep the empty area of an intact fuel tank below the flash point. once the integrity of the tank is compromised, inerting is useless.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 68):
Exactly what Im saying.You have a fire on the powerplant & the crew dont know.What about EGT.The fire warning would come on some time when the Fire detector senses the temperature rise even as you say the fire is Internal.
How would the crew not know.What about the Technical staff on ground.

I have never seen a fire warning for a high EGT event, The sensors are nowhere close to the tailpipe, because Fire warning is intended to indicate a bleed leak or Fuel line rupture that has ignited.
 
Markhkg
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:04 am

Quoting Movingtin (Reply 75):
Inerting will only keep the empty area of an intact fuel tank below the flash point. once the integrity of the tank is compromised, inerting is useless.



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 67):
Fuel tank inerting doesn't help you once a fire has started

Thanks for the correction. I must admit that I'm mulling over this safety study which sort-of-but-not-really suggests that there are some previous accidents which a fuel tank inerting system may have protected passengers if it was installed, even during landing-phase accidents.

http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/99-73.pdf
Release your seat-belts and get out! Leave everything!
 
AnMCOSon
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:05 am

Wow, this is freaky, or a weird coincidence, call it what you want, but not too long ago, maybe last month, on tv there was a program on, (think it might have been CNN or MSNBC, I'm not 100% sure), talking about TWA flight 800. Granted, this isn't a disaster as flight 800, but the guy was talking about the wiring in the fuel tanks causing fires. He did his research and came up with an aircraft fire every four years (roughly) and pointed out various fires around the world. I'm not saying the wiring is the cause, just the weird coincidence of the program being on, the guy mentioning fires every few years, then a fire not too much later.

Glad to see everyone made it out ok.  cheerful 

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 20):
Seeing a video of that plane burning brings a tear to my eye since I spend every day looking at brand new 737s being built and rolling out of the factory. It's so sad to see one be destroyed.

Me too, I hate seeing aircraft of any type being destroyed in an accident. I hate seeing the boneyards with all of those classics being scraped, but I remind myself that they're being recycled for various other things, instead of sitting in the hot sun getting older, and more wrinkled.
What the? Did everything just jump around? Or did my brain just stroke off there for a second?
 
ikramerica
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:31 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 43):
The 737 looks as if it would suffer from pain.

It really does, doesn't it? It's like an injured animal, a beached whale or something.

Quoting Carfield (Reply 46):
some made sense like the Kenya's incident, but some seem a bit unrelated like the A330 incident, which has no relation to the Boeing 737NG...

They are both operated by CI, so how is not unrelated? Because it's a different type?

They are absolutely right in the reporting here. Examine the possible links:
1. Other 737NG incidents for any reason
2. Other CI incidents for any aircraft type
3. Incidents where a plane is engulfed in flames without crashing first.

As an investigator, you would look at those three paths to try to figure out what went wrong. Looking at CI's overall operation is part of that research. It could point to a defect in their maintenance that could lead to engine troubles no matter which aircraft the engine is on.

Quoting Cricket (Reply 65):
Will they be able to salvage any parts from this aircraft?

Looks like quite a bit from the tail section, some of the wing parts, and some of the nose/cockpit/avionics parts unless they were damaged by smoke/foam. Also looks like at least 2 doors can be scrapped.

Quoting Seamefly (Reply 26):
Our primary job is your safety. To get your A** out of a burning plane! So if you don't think we deserve better treatments from managements, then be my guess, take a bus/boat!

So since you are using this event to "profit" for your own job, I feel I am okay to counter your claim.

I hear the claim "primary job is your safety" and that is not true. It is an IMPORTANT part of your job, but by using this incident, you demonstrate that this isn't your PRIMARY job, just a very UNLIKELY event you must plan for. Your primary job is still: board passengers, serve them during flight, deplane passengers on arrival. To claim that isn't your primary job is ludicrous.

With the shear volume of flights that happen in a year, and the fact we can count these kid of incidents on one hand, it's obvious that you aren't proving your case making these statements. The relative rate of incident is way too low for getting our "asses" out of a burning plane to be your primary job.

I'm quite happy that you are all trained to evacuate in an emergency. It's not lack of appreciation. But a school teacher is also trained to evacuate during an emergency, and we don't hear them claiming that it's their primary job.

What I find funny is that you offer a bus or a boat as an alternative. Both bus and boat operators are required to be trained in safety as well. Buses also catch fire, and boats do and they sink as well, and thus I would hope that those people also know safety procedures (and of course, they do).

But frankly, your final part, about not being appreciated is the only part I really object to. If you feel that way, then move on. Because there are still lines of furloughed F/As that would like to work for what you work for and won't have such an attitude about it...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting Calvin99 (Reply 74):
the news in HK is reporting that CI will be grounding all B738... is it true??

I'm in a position to see news like that pretty quickly...haven't see anything official yet.

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 76):
Thanks for the correction. I must admit that I'm mulling over this safety study which sort-of-but-not-really suggests that there are some previous accidents which a fuel tank inerting system may have protected passengers if it was installed, even during landing-phase accidents.

Based on the studies so far, it would protect a very small number of people. The FAA report you linked to notes that it only works if the fuel cells stay intact during the accident. It also has the standard FAA error when analyzing fuel tank inerting; that they don't count the mechanics that will be killed by working with a low-oxygen environment. For most assessments, it exceeds the number of passenger lives saved.

Tom.
 
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zeke
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting Calvin99 (Reply 74):
the news in HK is reporting that CI will be grounding all B738... is it true?? Can anyone confirm this?

saw in another article

"Taiwan's Civil Aeronautics Administration head Chang Kuo-cheng said authorities ordered China Airlines and its subsidiary Mandarin Airlines to ground their 13 other Boeing 737-800s pending a thorough inspection.

Japanese aviation authorities also ordered an emergency inspection of all Boeing 737-800 planes owned by Japanese air lines, as well as some 737-700 models that carry a similar engine. "

Another article I saw indicated they had a fuel leak that was observed by the ground mechanic on arrival, that prompted the emergency evacuation to commence slightly before the fire broke out.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:37 am

I've read that one of the engines "exploded." strikes me as strange that an oil leak generated engine fire would take place at idle during taxi and during the entire preceding flight... and Japan and Taiwan inspecting all 737NG engines seems strage, unless they do know for sure what the cause here was... but I have read nothing of that sort yet?

All the same, it's a blessing everyone made it off alive and mostly unharmed, but it's damn sad to see such a beautiful aircraft destroyed like that.

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 62):
Quoting Levent (Reply 61):
One of them continued by stating how unsafe China Airlines is to fly with

Do the facts prove otherwise?

China Airlines has had a very unfortunate record the past 10-12 odd years. While I may know they are safe, relatively speaking, I'd fly United or EVA to Taiwan, myself....
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
ktachiya
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:49 am

I am glad for the pax and everyone being safe but it was a close one since they plug in the APU shortly after the ac pulled up to the gate. I am glad that the ground staff were ok as well. How many hours did OKA get closed down for?
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Esajh
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Na

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:05 am

This is an analysis, at a very early stage, of what possibly caused China Airlines CI-120 to explode at the gate. It has interesting facts and information.
http://japan.suite101.com/article.cf...china_airlines_fire_possible_cause
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:10 am

Has boeing Issued an Alert SB or AD on this.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
usair320
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:11 am

I saw the headline on CNN this morning and aw PAX rapidly evacuating. Kudos to the crew!! they deserve similar praise as the AF 358 crew.
 
platinumfoota
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:25 am

I'm just glad no one was hurt first of all, great job by the F/A do get everyone out and the crew. Always sad to see an aircraft being destroyed, specially by fire, she was so young.
Never forget United 93
 
citation750x
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting RichM (Reply 13):
This is not a plane crash.

This could have been a crash if it happened during flight. Lucky for plane to be on the ground before this fire.
 
Brick
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:05 am

The explosion that happens just as the last passenger is off of the aircraft looks like a tire from one of the main gears exploding to me.
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man...
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 84):
Has boeing Issued an Alert SB or AD on this.

No. Until they have a cause, there's nothing they could put in an SB or AD anyway. Boeing usually releases a message to all operators when there is an event, but I haven't seen that go out yet.

Quoting Esajh (Reply 83):
http://japan.suite101.com/article.cf...china_airlines_fire_possible_cause

Although I appreciate what the author of this article is trying to do, he's talking out of his rear from a technical standpoint. The 737NG and 737CL have very very different fuel boost pump wiring systems so trying to connect this to the Thai or Philippines events has no basis. When he cites AD's later in the article he gets one right (for the 737-800) but the second one he talks about is a 737CL-only issue.

Bringing TWA 800 into his analysis is another mistake because TWA had nothing to do with the boost pumps (it was the fuel indication system wiring). He claims "The preliminary information shows a classic problem that has existed for some time." but the problem he's talking about is actually three distinctly different issues that affect three different models.

Also, under most situations, the center boost pumps would have been off at this time in the flight.

Tom.
 
Jerald01
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RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 78):
But frankly, your final part, about not being appreciated is the only part I really object to. If you feel that way, then move on. Because there are still lines of furloughed F/As that would like to work for what you work for and won't have such an attitude about it...

Why the sour-grapes comment? The poster who stated the F/A's primary job is SAFETY is absolutely correct. EVERYTHING they do, including boarding passengers, seeing to their in-flight needs, providing drinks and snack, de-boarding passengers... all of it relates to the overall safety of the flight.

A police officer certainly isn't very well thought of at the moment he writes you a ticket, now is he? But you can surely bet your next drink that you darn well would want him there when you have a problem that requires police assistance to resolve, now wouldn't you? Then step back and tell me that BOTH of the tasks are NOT safety-related...

Having said that, I also must state that almost ANY occupation has it's up's and down's when it comes to the worker getting the recognition and appropriate compensation that he/she THINKS they ought to get. I would dare say that ALL of us have, at one time or another, complained that we are underpaid and underappreciated... yet we sure don't see it within ourselves to hand the paycheck back to our employee saying "Thanks, but I'm worth more than that."
"There may be old pilots, and there may be bold pilots, but there are darn few green cows"
 
BlueSkys
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:58 am

RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting Brenintw (Reply 38):
engines are designed to ingest birds with minimal damage.

This is a birdstrike, a bird can do PLENTY of damage!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tmX70ff0bA
 
airbazar
Posts: 10377
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:39 am

Quoting Jerald01 (Reply 90):
Why the sour-grapes comment? The poster who stated the F/A's primary job is SAFETY is absolutely correct. EVERYTHING they do, including boarding passengers, seeing to their in-flight needs, providing drinks and snack, de-boarding passengers... all of it relates to the overall safety of the flight.

No, it relates to customer satisfaction. An FA is first and foremost a customer service agent. Yes, they do receive safety training for the rare incident that it may be necessary but it is not their primary job, not even close. Of course if your employer is telling you otherwise, then I guess that would explain the crappy level of service that passengers have to put up with in this country.
 
SP90
Posts: 351
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 12:39 am

RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:47 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 29):
Since the other thread is not seen I will post the links to Japanese video news. (in Japanese)

Yahoo Japan Video news

Amazing videos. Click on the first one, right around 35-36 seconds into the video you see a very brave guy with the fire extinguisher. I don't know what he was thinking but I hope he got away in time before the big explosion which came moments afterwards.
 
SASDC8
Posts: 530
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:01 pm

RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:49 am

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 36):
I've always thought the 90 second rule was something to do with flashover occuring-- rather than emergency services responding.

You are probably right, but saw a documentary about ORD and their emergency services, and they claimed to reach anywhere within the airport in under 90 seconds. I think 90 seconds comes from the time they estimate that you need to get out off a crashed AC. Would be nice if the emergency services were there to great you then...

Everyone got out ok, thanks to the crew, and that is by far the most important thing here.

Stein
2-3-2 is NOT a premium configuration
 
kaitak
Posts: 10069
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:50 am

Third 737 NG loss - after Gol and Kenya Airways?

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 92):
No, it relates to customer satisfaction. An FA is first and foremost a customer service agent. Yes, they do receive safety training for the rare incident that it may be necessary but it is not their primary job, not even close.

Most European flights I've been on (BA, Aer Lingus), involve one of the crew saying, "we're here for your comfort, BUT PRIMARILY FOR YOUR SAFETY" .... (sorry, capitals are intended for emphasis, not to shout at you!). Virtually all aviation authorities - CAA, IAA, JAA, etc - require the presence of a cabin attendant, but this is for safety, not for service. The service, drinks, nice smile etc, are all a bonus (well, on most good airlines), but they're sod all use if the crew don't know how to operate the safety equipment or get pax out in an emergency.

Well done to CI and its crew for getting pax out safely; sad that CI broke its five year run without a hull loss, but at least this was a non-fatal accident.
 
FriendlySkies
Posts: 3540
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Na

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:53 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 92):
An FA is first and foremost a customer service agent.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Yes, customer service is an important part of the FA's job, but safety always comes first. It doesn't take weeks to train someone how to serve a coke and a bag of pretzels.

Hell, the first FA's were nurses!
 
Esajh
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:58 pm

RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:58 am

Tom I disagree with you. I read the link to the TWA 800 NTSB report and the quote is right. “The official cause of this accident was ‘…an explosion of the center wing fuel tank resulting from ignition of the flammable fuel/air mixture in the tank. The source of ignition…was a short circuit’….” I agree that 1 AD is for -200/300/400 series and the second includes the -800 however, once again both Ads are for “severe wear of fuel boost pump wiring on model 737 series aeroplanes.” It does NOT specify which pump in which tank.

Your statement is similar to saying the #2 engine failed and caused the aircraft to roll. Another accident had the #1 engine fail and caused it to roll and this was two distinct differences.

“The problem he's talking about is actually three distinctly different issues that affect three different models.” Wiring, short circuits and fuel seems to me what is being said and that is not three problems but one very common problem.

Your statement is similar to saying the #2 engine failed and caused the aircraft to roll. Another accident had the #1 engine fail and caused it to roll and this was two distinct differences.

The boost pumps are completely interchangeable between all tanks on all models of the 73 and therefore, the wiring has to be the same. A center pump can be replaced for the left or right wing tanks. The major difference is in the “cracking” pressure used by the center pumps, lower in all cases to prevent reverse flow. This is in the plumbing and check valves, not the pump.

It should go further and say that it is the “uncovering” of the fuel that really presents the problem. In all cases when the fuel level in the tank got below the screws that was the problem. This problem has been around a long time and there was a very elaborate procedure for fuel management that was required with the ADs. Pumps COULD NOT be turned on below a specific fuel level (depending on the model.)

You say “Also, under most situations, the center boost pumps would have been off at this time in the flight.” Not necessarily! Prior to the AD all pumps were on. This is still in effect today with other Boeings and Airbuses. When these ADs came out everyone used the same procedure with those pumps until fixes came out. The Airbus 320 series had the same problem!

The big question here, was the mod in place? Is there still a problem?

Esajh
 
User avatar
Flying Belgian
Posts: 1958
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 12:45 am

RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:00 am

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 92):
No, it relates to customer satisfaction. An FA is first and foremost a customer service agent. Yes, they do receive safety training for the rare incident that it may be necessary but it is not their primary job, not even close. Of course if your employer is telling you otherwise, then I guess that would explain the crappy level of service that passengers have to put up with in this country.

Poor frustrated idiot. Open your eyes (if you can).

[Edited 2007-08-20 21:01:53]
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8573
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Breaking News: China Airlines Ac On Fire At Naha

Tue Aug 21, 2007 4:29 am

Quoting Esajh (Reply 97):
Tom I disagree with you. I read the link to the TWA 800 NTSB report and the quote is right. “The official cause of this accident was ‘…an explosion of the center wing fuel tank resulting from ignition of the flammable fuel/air mixture in the tank. The source of ignition…was a short circuit’….” I agree that 1 AD is for -200/300/400 series and the second includes the -800 however, once again both Ads are for “severe wear of fuel boost pump wiring on model 737 series aeroplanes.” It does NOT specify which pump in which tank.

You snipped the most important part. The souce of ignition was short circuit *in the indication wiring*. Nothing to do with the boost pumps.

Both AD's are for wear of the fuel boost pump wiring, but in very different places. The AD for 737NG is for wear outside the fuel tank, the AD for the 737CL is for wear inside the tank.

Quoting Esajh (Reply 97):
Your statement is similar to saying the #2 engine failed and caused the aircraft to roll. Another accident had the #1 engine fail and caused it to roll and this was two distinct differences.

No, it's not. The case you postulate is the same failure happening in a different place. TWA 800, the Thai/Philippines events, an a hypothetical boost pump issue on a 737NG are three different failures (also happening in three different places).

Quoting Esajh (Reply 97):

“The problem he's talking about is actually three distinctly different issues that affect three different models.” Wiring, short circuits and fuel seems to me what is being said and that is not three problems but one very common problem.

There is always the issue of the right level of abstration. If you stand back far enough, virtually all fuel tank ignition events (where there isn't another more primary event like a rotor burst) are cause by electricity. However, that's way too far back to look at it, since it doesn't allow you to do anything. The fixes for lighting vulnerability, hot shorts in the aircraft wiring bridging to the fuel indication system, and boost pump wire chaffing are very different because the causes are very different.

Quoting Esajh (Reply 97):
The boost pumps are completely interchangeable between all tanks on all models of the 73

No, they're not. The 737-300/400/500 pumps are interchangeable. The 737-600/700/800/900 fuel system is based off the 757 and you can't use those pumps on a 737-300/400/500. The wire routing is completely different (on a 737NG, the wires don't go into the fuel tank).

Quoting Esajh (Reply 97):
and therefore, the wiring has to be the same.

No, it isn't. A 737CL has conduits inside the fuel tanks which bring the wires to the pumps, which are mounted in small dry bays ("dog houses"). A 737NG runs the wires down the front and rear spar to spar-mounted pumps.

Quoting Esajh (Reply 97):
A center pump can be replaced for the left or right wing tanks.

Not on a 737NG.

Quoting Esajh (Reply 97):
The major difference is in the “cracking” pressure used by the center pumps, lower in all cases to prevent reverse flow. This is in the plumbing and check valves, not the pump.

That's the 737CL design, which doesn't apply to the 737NG. The 737NG uses different pumps for the center and main tanks to provide the necessary override pressure.

Quoting Esajh (Reply 97):
You say “Also, under most situations, the center boost pumps would have been off at this time in the flight.” Not necessarily! Prior to the AD all pumps were on.

Prior to the AD all the pumps could be on until they went dry. After the AD, they had to be shut off before they went dry. Regardless, that particular AD has been in effect for years and it had an extremely short adoption time, so there is zero chance that the aircraft involved in this incident was operating under anything other than the current center boost pump usage restrictions.

Tom.

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