CitrusCritter
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AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:45 am

As we know, many airlines have some special liveries such as the various state flag designs for WN (and my favorite, the Shamu design!), B6's Simpson livery, and other cool things like Alaska's salmon livery.

As far as I know, the only special livery FL has ever put out was the Elton John plane to promote the launch of XM radio on-board. Does anyone think we'll see any other FL special liveries, or is keeping every plane the same a cost saving measure? What about ValuJet and AirTran (manatee) historic liveries? I'm sure we won't see ValuJet anytime soon, but how about 15 years down the road?





Thanks!  Smile
 
airtran737
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:49 am

You can count on never ever seeing a ValuJet livery. I would like to see a retro AirTran livery though. We'll see what happens, I don't think it will though.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
CitrusCritter
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:21 pm

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 1):
You can count on never ever seeing a ValuJet livery.

You think say 10-15, even 20-30, years down the road that the stigma from J7592 will still be around the ValuJet name?
 
AASTEW
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:21 pm

As a former J7 employee I seriously doubt that you will every see a Critter livery flying around. Please remember that the original AirTran was never the size of J7. There probably aren't that many ORIGINAL AirTran crews left.

AASTEW
 
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mke717spotter
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:28 pm

I always thought they should've left atleast one plane in the Elton John scheme, or just try to incorporate it somehow into the new livery.
Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
 
whappeh
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:22 pm

I still very much miss the Critter flying around from when I was a child.
-Travel now, journey infinitely.
 
airtran717
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:36 pm

Quoting AASTEW (Reply 3):
There probably aren't that many ORIGINAL AirTran crews left.

You'd be surprised. I actually have more close friends from the original Airways clan than I do my own VJ/FL side. Most of them are in my seniority range (had I stayed) or better than 10 years. There's a lot more original Airways folks than you'd imagine.
 
airtran717
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting Mke717spotter (Reply 4):
I always thought they should've left atleast one plane in the Elton John scheme, or just try to incorporate it somehow into the new livery.

OMG!! That was the tackiest thing I ever saw! I love Elton, but that was just lame. It was just a huge decal, it wasn't even painted.
 
airtran717
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:42 pm

And as much as I'd like to see some version of Critter flying around, I doubt we'll ever see it. There's too much stigma around VJ. The press has since tried to make good and paint VJ in a better light, but they did more damage to VJ's image than the accident itself.

I never liked the Airways 737-200's. They were more like flying Greyhounds... and even that's being kind. But the livery on their planes were nice. Very colorful and easily indentifiable. I even suggested at one point that they do a special livery and reverse the colors... doing a green fuselage and tan tail, etc.... just for the shock value.

But I have to say that the new livery is sweet and classy.
 
airtran717
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Mon Aug 20, 2007 10:44 pm

I think the way the green on the belly... the way it sweeps up the nose... is very reminiscent of an old amphibian plane... PBY or similar planes. I loved flying in my grandfather's Widgeon!!!
 
access-air
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:25 pm

A bit of trivia......AirTran was originally the Holdings Copmpany for Mesaba Aviaition. This was back in 1989, if anyone remembers. Mesaba then was an AirTran Company. This was formed by the former Mesaba CEO Robert Swenson.
However, Northwest had a problem with the AirTran arrangement as it was in violation of an agreement with Northwest Airlines regarding pilots contracts. After Mr. Swenson left his post at Mesaba and took the AirTran Holdings name with him to start his own 737 airline AirTran Airways based out of Orlando, Florida.
I am not sure as to what the ownership of Mesaba became aftwer Swenson left, so I wont comment on that.

Subesequently, As you all know, AirTran AIRWAYS out of MCO and Valujet based in ATL would consolidate....When Air Tran wanted to expand they bought and re-named Valujet, Air Tran AIRLINES and then after a bit of time they merged the two companies and now we have AirTran Airways.

Reminds me of Britt AIRLINES and Britt AIRWAYS thing....


Access-Air
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gr8slvrflt
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:26 pm

An AirTran 73G did sport United States Marines Iwo Jima Memorial noseart for a short time last year. It was part of a charter group to Washington DC.

I doubt we'll see any AirTran retro schemes but promotional schemes sound good to me: Georgia Aquarium (maybe some dead whale sharks  Wink ), Williamsburg, Atlanta, Orlando, Baltimore, etc.
I work for Southwest, but the views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Southwest.
 
CitrusCritter
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:34 pm

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 11):
Georgia Aquarium (maybe some dead whale sharks ), Williamsburg, Atlanta, Orlando, Baltimore, etc.

Aren't they a sponsor of the Georgia Aquarium? I like those ideas though. I'd still love to see a retro-AirTran livery. And I'd like to see a ValuJet livery, but that's just me who grew up loving ValuJet...I had little Critter wings, a toy Critter, and who knows what else...sure wish I could find that stuff now! At any rate, ValuJet is definitely a tainted name for now, but I don't think it will be so bad in 20 years, assuming FL is still even around at that point -- a risky assumption.
 
gr8slvrflt
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:38 pm

When Air Tran wanted to expand they bought and re-named Valujet, Air Tran AIRLINES and then after a bit of time they merged the two companies and now we have AirTran Airways.

Actually, ValuJet bought AirTran but kept the AirTran name (and headquarters).
I work for Southwest, but the views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Southwest.
 
CitrusCritter
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 13):
Actually, ValuJet bought AirTran but kept the AirTran name (and headquarters).

And for a short time, ValuJet operated as AirTran Airlines before everything was moved onto the AirTran Airways certificate.
 
airtran717
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:00 am

AirTran needed cash in a bad way and VJ needed an image change equally as bad. So we bought them and took their name.
 
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spinkid
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 15):
AirTran needed cash in a bad way and VJ needed an image change equally as bad. So we bought them and took their name.

Probably one of the best win-win mergers in history.
 
airtran717
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:12 am

Quoting Spinkid (Reply 16):
Probably one of the best win-win mergers in history.

I heartily agree. Not that I'm biased or anything. Ha!

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 13):
Actually, ValuJet bought AirTran but kept the AirTran name (and headquarters).

And that is not exactly true... they tried to keep the ATL headquarters for a while, but there just wasn't enough room. So everyone from ATL went down to the newly built building in Orlando.
 
airtran717
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:13 am

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 12):
assuming FL is still even around at that point -- a risky assumption.

How so? Looking to get flamed on that one? LOL
 
CitrusCritter
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 18):
How so? Looking to get flamed on that one? LOL

Nah, just a comment on the volatility of the industry and the apparent propensity towards consolidation. So many airlines have dissappeared in the past 20 years, it's hard to say that anyone will still be around in 20 years. Who'd have thought in 1980 that TW, who was one of the biggest TATL carriers, would be gone 20 years later?? Or in 1970 that EA would be gone 20 years later? The industry is just very volatile, but as you know, I'd prefer that FL unseat WN...not that I expect it to happen anytime soon.
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:08 am

They should paint a 717 is old school Mesaba.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
travatl
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:58 pm

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 17):
And that is not exactly true... they tried to keep the ATL headquarters for a while, but there just wasn't enough room. So everyone from ATL went down to the newly built building in Orlando.

ACTUALLY - the company asked cities to "bid" for the headquarters (tax breaks, etc.). Orlando, Atlanta, and Washington DC were all considered.
1 Interview. 24 years. 3 Airlines.
 
CitrusCritter
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:39 pm

Quoting Travatl (Reply 21):
ACTUALLY - the company asked cities to "bid" for the headquarters (tax breaks, etc.). Orlando, Atlanta, and Washington DC were all considered.

Which is apparently happening again. I understand the City of Orlando and the State of Florida are working on an incentives package to allow FL to expand the office facilities in MCO.
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:48 pm

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 2):
You think say 10-15, even 20-30, years down the road that the stigma from J7592 will still be around the ValuJet name?

Yes. The Critter was killed by that crash, and it's almost a certainty they would never resurrect it, regardless of how much time has passed. Why do you think airlines retire flight numbers that have been involved in crashes? Someone will always remember.
 
CitrusCritter
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 23):
The Critter was killed by that crash, and it's almost a certainty they would never resurrect it, regardless of how much time has passed. Why do you think airlines retire flight numbers that have been involved in crashes? Someone will always remember.

I don't think that's an accurate analogy. Other airlines have had crashes, often with many more fatalities, and yet they didn't have to go change names. DL and the media conspired to bring down ValuJet, but that doesn't mean that a reconsideration of ValuJet in 20 years won't change the public view of it. It's worth noting that the public has a short memory and that's about when a revisionist history of that period will start coming out.

edit - typo

[Edited 2007-08-21 17:31:33]
 
airtran717
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:26 am

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 24):
Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 23):
The Critter was killed by that crash, and it's almost a certainty they would never resurrect it, regardless of how much time has passed. Why do you think airlines retire flight numbers that have been involved in crashes? Someone will always remember.

I don't think that's an accurate analogy. Other airlines have had crashes, often with many more fatalities, and yet they didn't have to go change names. DL and the media conspired to bring down ValuJet, but that doesn't mean that a reconsideration of ValuJet in 20 years won't change the public view of it. It's worth nothing that the public has a short memory and that's about when a revisionist history of that period will start coming out.

Most agreed. And as I already stated, the media is starting to cover the incident in its true light... an accident that was not caused by the airline itself, but rather, one of its contractors. The contractor in question has since been charged with the 110 counts of manslaughter and thusly gone out of business before paying a penny in restitution. Seconds From Disaster on TLC actually did a show on it recently and got it right in just about every detail. Better than the "media".
 
airtran717
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:29 am

Sorry folks. I tend to get very testy about VJ and 592 topics and references. I have found that most who post don't know enough about it to post anything of value other than recovering what the media has already done to muddy the waters. I knew one of the crew. And I also know a crew member who sick-called for that very trip. So it hits close to home.
 
richierich
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:43 am

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 2):
You think say 10-15, even 20-30, years down the road that the stigma from J7592 will still be around the ValuJet name?

To echo SkyyMaster, yes the stigma does (and will) exist.

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 24):
DL and the media conspired to bring down ValuJet, but that doesn't mean that a reconsideration of ValuJet in 20 years won't change the public view of it.

Regardless of whether this is true or not (or fair or not), it is what it is. People still equate The Critter with "cheap", "nasty" and "unsafe", which are tough images to overcome. The public may well remember a ValuJet plane crashed but they may not know all of the details as to why Critter 592 ended up in the Everglades.

As for DL conspiring with the media, what are you talking about? I'm hardly DL's biggest fan but I'm not sure I follow here. The irony of what you say is that AirTran exists today as a much bigger threat to DL than ValuJet ever did!!

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 25):
And as I already stated, the media is starting to cover the incident in its true light... an accident that was not caused by the airline itself, but rather, one of its contractors.

Again, it doesn't matter. I don't make the rules and I don't think it is fair, but its the way it is.
The airline has spent so much time and effort shedding the ValuJet image (very very well, I might add) that they are not likely to return to it. I'm guessing it will always be viewed as a turmultuous time in FL's history and not one they'll look back on fondly.
None shall pass!!!!
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:43 am

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 24):
I don't think that's an accurate analogy. Other airlines have had crashes, often with many more fatalities, and yet they didn't have to go change names. DL and the media conspired to bring down ValuJet, but that doesn't mean that a reconsideration of ValuJet in 20 years won't change the public view of it. It's worth noting that the public has a short memory and that's about when a revisionist history of that period will start coming out.

I do agree with one point here, the media played a huge role in this. However you are the first person I have ever heard implicate DL had anything to do with J7's demise. I just don't buy that. Personally, I liked Valujet. I flew them a number of times out of DFW and it was always enjoyable. I still have the key chain I won for guessing the correct number of windows in the cockpit of a DC-9 during their onboard "games". I just don't buy into the idea that Delta conspired with the media to take them down. If I had my "druthers", I'd just as soon see the Critter and Valujet name now.

As for Airtran717''s comment, I know how you feel. I lost four co-workers in the DL191 crash at DFW. My intent is not to bash, I simply state what airlines commonly do in such a situation. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
airtran717
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:51 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 27):
) that they are not likely to return to it.



Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 28):
My intent is not to bash, I simply state what airlines commonly do in such a situation. Nothing more, nothing less.

Oh, I know. And I agree. But there have been some in my comings and goings here on a.net that have crossed the line of decency just to throw a dagger. Uneducated morons, every one of them.

Besides, imagine the outrage the passenger's families would create if they were to ever got retro VJ... Lawsuit anyone?
 
CitrusCritter
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:23 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 27):
As for DL conspiring with the media, what are you talking about?

DL had both the Atlanta Journal-Constitution and Cox Communications, which owns Channel 2 WSB, an ABC affiliate, which is (was?) Atlanta's highest rated evening news network in their pocket. One of DL's board members was an executive at Cox. I'll get back to you on the exact specifics of that after I've had time to research later tonight, but it's really not worth rehashing all of the ValuJet arguments that have existed on this board in the past. But for those of us that lived in ATL during this time (admittedly, I wasn't very old, but my Dad was an FF for both DL and J7), it was apparent that DL was trying to end J7. And why wouldn't they? It was their competition. And while FL has rebounded well, J7, had it survived the crash, would be bigger than FL is now and probably more competitive, especially given the secondary hub at IAD and more successful business routes (e.g. IAD-YUL).
 
MKEdude
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:41 am

ValuJet is dead and it's not coming back. At this point it is irrelevant as to whether it was killed by it's own actions or a DL-lead conspiracy. The image of ValuJet will forever be entwined with 592. The effort and cost involved in changing that perception is so prohibitive it simply isn't worth AirTran's time.

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 11):
I doubt we'll see any AirTran retro schemes but promotional schemes sound good to me: Georgia Aquarium (maybe some dead whale sharks

Perhaps they could also do a Michael Vick livery.  biggrin 
"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline." Frank Zappa
 
717-200
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:46 am

Here is an idea for either WN or FL. Have an a/c painted in the flag of the state where the 737's are built, Washington State.
72S 733 734 735 73G 738 742 752 763 E190 M82 M83
 
airtran717
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting MKEdude (Reply 31):
ValuJet is dead and it's not coming back. At this point it is irrelevant as to whether it was killed by it's own actions or a DL-lead conspiracy. The image of ValuJet will forever be entwined with 592. The effort and cost involved in changing that perception is so prohibitive it simply isn't worth AirTran's time.

No body is arguing that specific point. But someone commented about VJ and the incident and I'm just educating people on the subject. It never ceases to amaze me when 592 comes up, just how many people don't know what really happened. That's all.

Now back to our regularly scheduled topic...

I'm glad they changed to a white fuselage... the beige looked so dirty even when it was brand new. Now it just pops out atcha...
 
717-200
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RE: AirTran - Special/Historic Liveries?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 33):
I'm glad they changed to a white fuselage... the beige looked so dirty

Yeah, remember how the DC9's used to look with the slightly different tones of beige? The ex-DL nines had that look while
the ex-THY and BM's looked better.
72S 733 734 735 73G 738 742 752 763 E190 M82 M83

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