Didn't see another thread on this, so figured I'd post it.

American Eagle (Executive Airlines, specifically) will be launching flights from San Juan to Samana, Dominican Republic (AZS) from 13 December. Flights will, of course, be operated with 68-seat ATR72s, and will be once-daily. The schedule:

AA5046 SJU 1345 AZS 1510 AT7
AA5047 AZS 1540 SJU 1700 AT7

In other news, AA mainline will also be starting a new route on 13 December: for the first time since I believe 2002 or 2003, they'll be returning to JFK-MCO -- very cautiously, of course (after all, this is AA) with a single-daily MD80 timed primarily for European connections:

AA2629 JFK 1535 MCO 1840 M80
AA2626 MCO 1210 JFK 1445 M80

Cheers.

Quoting Commavia (Thread starter): In other news, AA mainline will also be starting a new route on 13 December: for the first time since I believe 2002 or 2003, they'll be returning to JFK-MCO -- very cautiously, of course (after all, this is AA) with a single-daily MD80 timed primarily for European connections: AA2629 JFK 1535 MCO 1840 M80 AA2626 MCO 1210 JFK 1445 M80

Looks like American Airlines is going to be a little competition for Delta on this route as well. It cannot come as a suprise since American Airlines presence is larger than Delta at JFK, and AA has a much larger overall presence in the New York market than Delta Air Lines.

-JD

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 1): It cannot come as a suprise since American Airlines presence is larger than Delta at JFK, and AA has a much larger overall presence in the New York market than Delta Air Lines.

Umm, much larger, not quite. They are very neck-and-neck in the New York market. In fact, DL may have already surpassed AA in JFK. If they haven't already, then they will in the next year.

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 2): Umm, much larger, not quite. They are very neck-and-neck in the New York market. In fact, DL may have already surpassed AA in JFK. If they haven't already, then they will in the next year.

For June 2007, AA+Eagle was still slightly (~2-3%) larger than Delta+Connection at JFK. But that's JFK. For the New York market overall, though, AA is still well ahead (by at least 10%).

AA (mainline) is still -- by a very large margin -- the biggest player at LaGuardia, and when you add in their still quite sizable presence at JFK, plus their relatively strong #2 position at EWR (behind obvious hub powerhouse CO), they put up quite an impressive showing in the Tri-State area, even despite their anemic showing in the growth department of late vs. Delta's continuous gangbusters expansion.

[Edited 2007-08-20 16:55:21]

This is great great news!!

I was at JFK when the last 757 went to MCO in 2002. It will also be nice to see the MD80 back at JFK, which is also going to be making a guest appearance from ORD very shortly as well.

Finally! I never thought they'd bring MCO back, but they did! Hopefully they'll add a mid-evening MCO departure soon (that works best for me)!

this is surprising about MCO. I flew AA JFK-MCO out of the ol' T8 back in 2003 on a 757. Good times.

This past month I flew AA LGA-MCO on the 757 in F and really enjoyed the service.

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 2): Umm, much larger, not quite. They are very neck-and-neck in the New York market. In fact, DL may have already surpassed AA in JFK. If they haven't already, then they will in the next year.

Commavia has answered the question as to AA's presence in the NYC market rather well..

SOURCE: JFK.PDF" target=_blank>http://www.panynj.gov/CommutingTrave...orts/pdfs/traffic/JUN_2007_JFK.PDF

JFK MARKET

Domestic Passengers
#2 American Airlines 3,757,982 * #9 American Eagle 450,107
4,208,089 Passengers

#3 Delta Air Lines 3,674,993 * #4 Comair 1,475,533 * #15 Delta Connection 413,781
5,564,307 Passengers

Domestic Delta Cumulative Above American Airlines Cumulative = 1,356,218 Passengers

International Passengers
#2 American Airlines 3,858,261 * #9 American Eagle 174,126
4,032,387 Passengers

#3 Delta Air Lines 2,541,029
2,541,029 Passengers

International American Airlines Cumulative Above Delta Cumulative = 1,491,358 Passengers

Overall JFK Standing
#2 American Airlines 7,616,243 * #9 American Eagle 624,233
8,240,476 Passengers

#3 Delta Air Lines 6,216,022 * #4 Comair 1,475,533 * #15 Delta Connection 413,781
8,105,336 Passengers

Total American Airlines Cumulative Above Delta Cumulative = 135,140 Passengers

SOURCE: http://www.panynj.gov/CommutingTrave...orts/pdfs/traffic/JUN_2007_REG.PDF

NYC - JFK/EWR/LGA MARKET
#3 American Airlines 14,238,684 with #10 American Eagle 1,954,435
16,193,119 Total Passengers

#4 Delta Air Lines 10,151,455 with #9 Comair 2,494,628 with #13 Delta Shuttle 1,101,931
13,748,014 Total Passengers

Total American Airlines Cumulative Above Delta Cumulative = 2,445,105 Passengers

>>>>> In closing I think it would be hard for Delta Air Lines to push a growth of 2,445,105 passengers within a year to overcome American Airlines in the New York City market. However, and as is widely known both airlines are overshadowed in the JFK market by Jet Blue, and overshadowed on a massive scale compared to Continental Airlines with their Newark hub.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 3): For June 2007, AA+Eagle was still slightly (~2-3%) larger than Delta+Connection at JFK. But that's JFK. For the New York market overall, though, AA is still well ahead (by at least 10%).

Thanks Commavia, as always great data from yourself!   

-JD

So this will be AMR's 6th destination in Dominican Republic. Interesting, SDQ, LRM, PUJ, STI, POP and now AZR.

It's about time AA got back on JFK-MCO, however 1 daily M80 is not enough (IMO). Why not rotate some A300s and 757s 3xs a day. JFK-MCO-MIA.

As for JFK,

IIRC at JFK it's B6, DL and AA.

Overall in the NYC market it's CO (by a wide margin), AA, with B6 and DL neck and neck for #3..

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9): IIRC at JFK it's B6, DL and AA

Already answered..

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 7): Overall JFK Standing #2 American Airlines 7,616,243 * #9 American Eagle 624,233 8,240,476 Passengers #3 Delta Air Lines 6,216,022 * #4 Comair 1,475,533 * #15 Delta Connection 413,781 8,105,336 Passengers Total American Airlines Cumulative Above Delta Cumulative = 135,140 Passengers

-JD

No cargo to MCO...not economical in anyway. MCO is also not a true maintenance base for the A300. What they have now they can not truly accomodate (A300's from MIA and SJU). If an A300 breaks down in MIA..its sure to be a 6 hour delay...

Quoting STT757 (Reply 9): Overall in the NYC market it's CO (by a wide margin), AA, with B6 and DL neck and neck for #3..

B6 has surpassed AA in the New York market. It's now CO, B6, AA, and DL in that order.

Good to see AA returning to JFK-MCO, albeit with one daily MD-80. B6 totally dominates the route though, so no reason for AA to offer anything more than a few European connections to MCO, everyone else can use LGA.

Jeremy

Anyone heard of the other routes they plan to add to JFK? I read an article linked from A.Net that quoted an American Airlines insider saying that they were going to announce more European routes.

I believe that the main reason the new JFK-MCO flight exists is due to operational restraints at LGA. AA wanted to keep 3x NYC-MCO flights, but also wanted to add a LGA-PBI flight (which starts in december). Due to slots at LGA they had to move or get rid of a flight and therefore the MCO flight was moved to JFK.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 12): B6 has surpassed AA in the New York market. It's now CO, B6, AA, and DL in that order.

True with the gap between American and Delta being 2,445,105 Passengers

For Delta Air Lines to attain the passenger level of American Airlines they would have to add the equivelant of the following aircraft and frequencies to match American Airlines passenger numbers in the New York market:


13 767-300ER Round-Trip Flights per day

or

18 757-200 Round-Trip Flights per day

or

23 737-800 Round-Trip Flights per day


-JD

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 15): 18 757-200 Round-Trip Flights per day

So 10 of those next year...

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 15): 13 767-300ER Round-Trip Flights per day

A few of those coming...

should close the gap a little.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 13): Anyone heard of the other routes they plan to add to JFK? I read an article linked from A.Net that quoted an American Airlines insider saying that they were going to announce more European routes.

Unless AA plans to put 757s on TATL, which they canned, I can't see anymore than 2-3 new European destinations. AA simply doesn't have the aircraft to open up many long-haul routes, besides the already announced JFK-STN service with 2x daily 767-300 service, I can't see much else.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 15): True with the gap between American and Delta being 2,445,105 Passengers

And the reason for once again mentioning this gap is what?

Jeremy

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 17): Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 15): True with the gap between American and Delta being 2,445,105 Passengers And the reason for once again mentioning this gap is what?

..to show a point.....

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 17): And the reason for once again mentioning this gap is what?

It is to show a point as early on in this forum it was discussed by someone that Delta Air Lines was larger than American Airlines, and would become larger than AA in the New York market..

-JD

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 17): Unless AA plans to put 757s on TATL, which they canned, I can't see anymore than 2-3 new European destinations. AA simply doesn't have the aircraft to open up many long-haul routes, besides the already announced JFK-STN service with 2x daily 767-300 service, I can't see much else.

The new Stansted service will increase the AA JFK market by up to 328,500 passengers

Adding to that the new Las Vegas flight that will add 137,240 passengers

Adding to that the new Orlando flight that will add 102,200 passengers

Totalling to a potential gain of 567,940 passengers

-JD

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 16): should close the gap a little.

That is if AA remains stagnant, I have a strong feeling they will not remain stagnant.

We shall see, we already know about Stansted with the 767-300. Im sure there will be other surprises in time for next Summer from AA at JFK.

[Edited 2007-08-20 22:24:38]

Quoting STT757 (Reply 21): We shall see, we already know about Stansted with the 767-300. Im sure there will be other surprises in time for next Summer from AA at JFK

I have heard of a few markets moving to JFK from LGA to make room for expanded schedules on certain LGA routes. I have also heard that American Airlines is in a defensive mode. When they are prepare yourselves. American Airlines has sat back for a while and watched Delta Air Lines grow. As STT757 says above American Airlines is getting ready for a few more surprises in 2008. American Airlines is not going to let Delta Air Lines take any claim away from them...

-JD

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 22): American Airlines is not going to let Delta Air Lines take any claim away from them...

Not if it comes at the expense of their bottom line. Since American decided to shape up in 2003, they have showed us time and again that they are not willing to sacrifice their bottom line for market share, with the sole exception of their Love Field mistake.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 20): Totalling to a potential gain of 567,940 passengers

Assuming 100% load factor. At a more realistic 85% loadfactor that's around 476,000 passengers. Either way, you're on point with the fact that American will will remain bigger in New York than Delta.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 17): Unless AA plans to put 757s on TATL, which they canned, I can't see anymore than 2-3 new European destinations. AA simply doesn't have the aircraft to open up many long-haul routes, besides the already announced JFK-STN service with 2x daily 767-300 service, I can't see much else.

American ought to bring some of the mothballed MD-80s back online by Summer 08 to bump some of their 757s and 767s off domestic and Caribbean routes to move them to European routes.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 23): American ought to bring some of the mothballed MD-80s back online by Summer 08 to bump some of their 757s and 767s off domestic and Caribbean routes to move them to European routes.

American Airlines needs the AB3, 757 and 767's that they are using to the Caribbean for the cargo capacity as that is the prime money maker for them in the Caribbean market.

-JD

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 23): American ought to bring some of the mothballed MD-80s back online by Summer 08 to bump some of their 757s and 767s off domestic and Caribbean routes to move them to European routes.

You are obviously uninformed about AA and the Caribbean if you think they will swap profitable flights with MD-80s, whose cargo carrying abilities are mediocre at best. Those flights make money with 757s/767s/A300s (PAP,POS,PLS,SDQ,SJU,STI,etc) and no Caribbean routes get the 767 besides JFK-SJU and MIA-POS (maybe 1 or 2 others I forgot).

What's your point?   

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 20): The new Stansted service will increase the AA JFK market by up to 328,500 passengers Adding to that the new Las Vegas flight that will add 137,240 passengers Adding to that the new Orlando flight that will add 102,200 passengers Totalling to a potential gain of 567,940 passengers

AA also announced they are expanding their JFK-Caribbean network with new non-stop flights to St Lucia and St Kitts. UVF will be 3xweekly 757 and SKB will be 2xweekly 757, IIRC. Both start in November.

I was in Terminal 9 at JFK today and there is SO much room for expansion there! I have no doubt that we will see AA expanding at JFK in the years to come...

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 19): It is to show a point as early on in this forum it was discussed by someone that Delta Air Lines was larger than American Airlines, and would become larger than AA in the New York market

For the record, no one ever said that DL was larger than AA, I simply stated that AA is not MUCH larger in the New York area. And in reference to DL expanding in JFK to possibly overtake AA as the #2 carrier, DL has 10 757-ETOPS coming online that are going to be devoted to JFK-Europe. Combine this with DL's recent announcement of new JFK-Latin America flights and new Europe 767 flights that will be announced in the next few months, it is quite possible that DL will overtake AA at JFK by the end of next year.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 24): American Airlines needs the AB3, 757 and 767's that they are using to the Caribbean for the cargo capacity as that is the prime money maker for them in the Caribbean market.

I didn't say use MD-80s in the Caribbean. Bringing MD-80s out of storage to replace domestic 737 capacity is the most cost effective way to free up aircraft for European routes. 737s can be moved to Caribbean routes to replace 757s, which in turn can be moved to JFK should they launch new routes to Europe.

American ought to reverse their plan to bring MD-80s to JFK, and instead base 737s for newer, thinner Caribbean routes, like St. Kitts, St. Lucia, Curaçao, Antigua, etc..

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 25): You are obviously uninformed about AA and the Caribbean if you think they will swap profitable flights with MD-80s, whose cargo carrying abilities are mediocre at best. Those flights make money with 757s/767s/A300s (PAP,POS,PLS,SDQ,SJU,STI,etc) and no Caribbean routes get the 767 besides JFK-SJU and MIA-POS (maybe 1 or 2 others I forgot).

You obviously jumped the gun. I'm clearly not an expert, but you put no thought into reading what I said.

Bringing MD-80s back on line frees up 737s from domestic duty to move to the Caribbean. As I just stated, 737s free up 757s to move to JFK. Removing the 767s from Caribbean duty and moving them to European routes should be a priority for American. That streamlines AA's Caribbean operation to just three types - 738s, 757s and AB6s, down from as many as 5 at times (738/757/762/763/AB6). I most certainly did not mean to suggest that American start flying MD-80s to the Caribbean.

Edit: Spelling

[Edited 2007-08-21 00:53:24]

Just as a point of information, the 767s we fly to the Caribbean are to avoid sitting an international jet at MIA or JFK for hours on end.....we send it on a Caribbean turn. Therefore, there really isn 't any meaningful 767 capacity to "free up" from the Caribbean. The 757 is another story.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 29): Bringing MD-80s back on line frees up 737s from domestic duty to move to the Caribbean

Where would the MD-80s be based? I could see it working if they replaced some of the shorter DFW routes currently operated by 738s, but that's about it.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 29): Removing the 767s from Caribbean duty and moving them to European routes should be a priority for American.

Why? In light of the recent AA European service pulled (Glasgow, Shannon, etc), besides it's 2 measly 767s flying to the Caribbean (on 3hr 50min and 3hr 40min flights respectively; certainly not enough for a JFK-Europe flight), you are blowing it out of proportion.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 29): That streamlines AA's Caribbean operation to just three types - 738s, 757s and AB6s, down from as many as 5 at times (738/757/762/763/AB6).

IIRC there are no AA 762s scheduled to the Caribbean. Also, the 757/762/763 are type rated, think of them as one family.

EDIT-Maybe you are thinking about AA's JFK-BDA service with the 762? (7:30AM flight)

[Edited 2007-08-21 01:24:54]

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 28): For the record, no one ever said that DL was larger than AA, I simply stated that AA is not MUCH larger in the New York area.

Neck and Neck in the New York Market is over 2,000,000 passenger difference?

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 2): Umm, much larger, not quite. They are very neck-and-neck in the New York market. In fact, DL may have already surpassed AA in JFK. If they haven't already, then they will in the next year.

I was responding to the fact that you summized American and Delta as being Neck and Neck, which is not true and will not be true until Delta adds a rather large amount of flights at JFK, an airport that it is currently near maxed out at Deltas Terminal in reference to gate space.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 29): Bringing MD-80s back on line frees up 737s from domestic duty to move to the Caribbean. As I just stated, 737s free up 757s to move to JFK. Removing the 767s from Caribbean duty and moving them to European routes should be a priority for American.

Elmo, I have agreed with you in the past but I cannot argree on this idea as American Airlines Cargo traffic to the Caribbean needs the 767 and AB6 that are flying in the market. Please find below the Cargo that American Airlines carries out of JFK:

SOURCE: http://www.panynj.gov/CommutingTrave...orts/pdfs/traffic/JUN_2007_REG.PDF

JFK Cargo Traffic
#1 American Airlines 168,268Tons
#7 Delta Air Lines 58,639 Tons

American Airlines without the 767 and 757 from the Caribbean market would be throwing an excellent flow of revenue out the door as exemplified above.

-JD

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 31): IIRC there are no AA 762s scheduled to the Caribbean. Also, the 757/762/763 are type rated, think of them as one family.

I stand corrected. American flew 767-200s in the 3 class configuration between LAX and San Juan. It's been upgraded to either a 767-300 or a 757-200.

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 31): Where would the MD-80s be based? I could see it working if they replaced some of the shorter DFW routes currently operated by 738s, but that's about it.

Dallas and LaGuardia.

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 31): Why? In light of the recent AA European service pulled (Glasgow, Shannon, etc), besides it's 2 measly 767s flying to the Caribbean (on 3hr 50min and 3hr 40min flights respectively; certainly not enough for a JFK-Europe flight), you are blowing it out of proportion.

That's not the point. If American needs aircraft, I am identifying a source. I was/am making a forward looking statement.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 32): American Airlines without the 767 and 757 from the Caribbean market would be throwing an excellent flow of revenue out the door as exemplified above.

Absolutely as for the 757s, however American could simplify its operation by removing its 767s from the Caribbean. Incremental revenue or not, cost savings are achieved by limiting the number of aircraft types that need to be serviced.

Going by MD90fan's statement, there are only two 767 routes to the Caribbean. Removing 767s from those routes and replacing them with 757s or 737s from the mainland (doubling frequency) could make up for some of the capacity, though removing the 767s would lower costs.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 32): Elmo, I have agreed with you in the past but I cannot agree on this idea as American Airlines Cargo traffic to the Caribbean needs the 767 and AB6 that are flying in the market. Please find below the Cargo that American Airlines carries out of JFK:

Absolutely, and I agree entirely with you. American Airlines dominates the cargo markets not only in New York but across the country, merely by virtue of their aircraft's belly capacity. Keep the Airbus 300s and 757s in the Caribbean, but thinner routes can be served by 737-800s.

The heavy VFR markets (Puerto Rico, Jamaica, the Dominican Republic, etc...) need the belly capacity, and there is no reason that I have provided or other to remove such routes.

Since AA is bringing MD-80s back to JFK, is there any chance STL-JFK goes mainline?

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 33): American could simplify its operation by removing its 767s from the Caribbean. Incremental revenue or not, cost savings are achieved by limiting the number of aircraft types that need to be serviced. Going by MD90fan's statement, there are only two 767 routes to the Caribbean. Removing 767s from those routes and replacing them with 757s or 737s from the mainland (doubling frequency) could make up for some of the capacity, though removing the 767s would lower costs.

The 767 Caribbean routes are VERY few in number and AA has very specific reasons for using the 767 in these cases.

An example is Miami-Port of Spain, operated by a Boeing 767-300ER. The aircraft used would otherwise be sat on the ground for a whole day in between its night flights to/from deep South America. Using it on MIA-POS allows AA to operate the route without an additional aircraft, which would be necessary if they utilised a 757 or 738.

Also, MIA-POS has a lot of high yielding business traffic on the route. AA is directly competing with Caribbean Airlines for this traffic. Therefore, it is important that they provide a good business class product. The international long haul Business Class cabin in the 763 is far superior to that of the 757/738, therefore enhancing their competitive advantage at winning this traffic.

Another factor could be cargo. Not only the overall cargo volume to a station, but also the size of each container that can be accepted. Narrow body aircraft just cannot carry the size of cargo that wide body aircraft can. Cargo is an important source of revenue on many of AA’s Caribbean routes.

AA uses one 767-300 to SJU out of JFK, upon's it's return it's usually off to Brussels (its great to lay-back on a 767-300 from SJU to JFK). One (1) 767-200 leaves JFK in the am, and heads to MIA, upon's return to JFK it's off to LAX, and returns a red-eye to NYC. They have a great rotation. These two planes would sit unused all day because of the way they are used. Its maxing out the fleet.

I would suspect Athens and Barcelona as potential (future) routes out fo JFK. NYC has a huge Greek polulation..HUGE.. Thats a market they could tap. Just my two cents.

Quoting AAJFKSJUBKLYN (Reply 36): AA uses one 767-300 to SJU out of JFK, upon's it's return it's usually off to Brussels (its great to lay-back on a 767-300 from SJU to JFK).

Are you sure? I thought that JFK-BRU is usually operated by a 767-300 that arrives from SFO...

I have gone to Brussels (4) times since May for work. Each and every time the plane came in from SJU. It could differ depending on usage, maintenance. I am sure, for these instances. One thing to note, I always left on a Thursday, so it could quite possibly been SFO to BRU other days.

Well, on Sunday, AA172 to BRU left out of gate 46 (after a 4+ hour delay!) and it looks like AA24 from SFO was at least scheduled to be the plane for the BRU flight. Again yesterday, it looks like AA24 from SFO did indeed become AA172 from BRU, with a scheduled 90 min turnaround at gate 33 in T9. As for today, it looks like currently (per AA.com) AA172 to BRU is supposed to leave out of gate 40, and once again it looks like the inbound is - at least as of now - supposed to be AA24 from SFO. I have absolutely no idea what this route usually operates with, as I've never flown an SFO-JFK, SJU-JFK, or BRU-JFK, but at least for the last two days and supposedly for today, the SFO flight does indeed become the BRU flight.

It changes all the time. The period I flew was May-First week July. Either or..its maximizing use. The inbound SJU could have gone to CDG or FCO as well. Who knows! Its good utilization. Wasn't looking for a debate, just my two cents as I said.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 19): It is to show a point as early on in this forum it was discussed by someone that Delta Air Lines was larger than American Airlines, and would become larger than AA in the New York market..

No one even said that. Maybe you imagined it.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 20): Totalling to a potential gain of 567,940 passengers

"Potential" is the key word, as DL of course is adding quite a few new flights this winter as well. I eventually see DL and AA's little buildup at JFK losing out, as both carriers are far behind CO in the area, and B6 is growing far faster than both. Both AA and DL planned to make JFK their second or third largest hubs back in 1998-2000, but 9/11 changed all of that. Unfortunately I think this buildup at JFK is a little too late, as B6 has emerged as the premier carrier at JFK (at least domestically). AA and DL's only chances to gain notoriety at JFK is on the international front, where both carriers are banking on large influxes of international growth. This winter DL will add JFK-SJO, GUA, PTY, POS, LIR, and TLV. Next summer I'm hearing 5-7 more European routes with 757s as well as more JFK-Africa and Middle East services. JFK-NRT is also a top priority for DL once they have the free 777s to open the route. So much for this growth potential that AA has against DL.   AA's growth, while good (and it's about time), will still be dwarfed by DL at JFK as they truly intend to become one of NYC's largest airlines, and hope to make JFK their 2nd or 3rd largest hub within the next few years

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 32): I was responding to the fact that you summized American and Delta as being Neck and Neck, which is not true and will not be true until Delta adds a rather large amount of flights at JFK, an airport that it is currently near maxed out at Deltas Terminal in reference to gate space.

Once again, find the post where someone said that. This little vendetta of yours is quite pathetic. Would you characterize UA's dominance over AA at ORD as a huge lead, as UA carries well over 2,000,000+ passengers than AA at ORD. I'd still call this neck and neck as there's no clear dominant airline as their was at DFW with AA and DL or at ATL will DL and FL.

Quoting TWA757 (Reply 34): Since AA is bringing MD-80s back to JFK, is there any chance STL-JFK goes mainline?

Doubt it, as AA didn't even want a daily ORD-JFK mainline flight until recently; I couldn't see STL-JFK getting more than an ERJ.

Jeremy

SESGDL,

In reference to American Airlines wanting JFK as a hub in 1998-2000

American Airlines did not plan on having JFK as their third largest hub. American Airlines primary hubs have and will continue to be Dallas. DFW, Chicago.ORD, and Miami. There are others as well however these are the most important hubs at current in the American Airlines route network. Each serving a specific market, and serving a specific niche in the American Airlines route network. New York.JFK and New York.LGA are not American Airlines hub markets. American Airlines maintains both New York.JFK and New York.LGA as Focus Cities and nothing more than that. I remember American Airlines very well back in 1998-2000, as I was working for them at the time.

We never planned to have New York.JFK on the scale of DFW, ORD, or MIA. We have always maintained the New York market as a means of yield and revenue. hence the reason American Airlines never entered into operations such as SONG to battle Jet Blue. American Airlines battles with Jet Blue can be counted on one hand. American Airlines learned their is no money to be made in the pissing matches with the LCC airlines, so American Airlines has refocused on money making routes and solidifying some of their most valuable assets which include the NYC-LON market, the NYC-LAX/SFO market, the NYC-Latin American, South American, Caribbean Market, the NYC-Narita Market, and so forth.

We had and they continue to have equally impressive operations in the New York market where as New York.LGA and New York.JFK both serve a specific purpose. New York.LGA is the Domestic Focus, while New York.JFK is the international and Trans-Con Focus.

In reference to American Airlines New York Market Notoreity

American has gained notoriety in the New York.JFK over the decades it has served it. It does not need to gain anything else as American Airlines is in a very enviable position at JFK. The number one US airline in the JFK market to Latin America, South America, the Caribbean, Los Angeles Trans-Con, and Heathrow markets. American Airlines isnt in business to play a game of catch up. They are not going after the VFR traffic to OTP, KBP, or BUD.

American Airlines has a niche in the New York market and that niche is compounded by the number of premium seats and premium markets that American Airlines holds in the market. Remember American Airlines is running 6x 777 per day to London with 3 class equipment while Delta Air Lines has a 2-class service that will be decreased from 2x to 1x in Winter months. American Airlines is in a very good position in the New York market, hence the reason they are adding even more service with the addition of the 2x 767-300 to STN to bring their New York to London flights to a total of 8 by mid 2008.

In reference to the Idea that AA and DL are Neck and Neck in the New York Market

To start this topic is not about O'Hare, and secondly I am only going to discuss the topic at hand. That topic is American Airlines and their recent addition of new services to the JFK market. In reference to the 2,000,000 passengers that American Airlines carried over Delta Air Lines in the New York market, I think that anyone you ask will say that a margin that is lead by 2,000,000 passengers is far from neck and neck..

Again 2,000,000 passengers is not even close to neck and neck.. There is a clearly dominant airline at JFK it is Jet Blue, followed by American Airlines, and then Delta Air Lines. In the New York market. The clear leaders are Continental Airlines, Jet Blue, American Airlines, and then 2,000,000 passengers later Delta Air Lines.

Before closing I would like to draw attention to the fact that this topic is about American Airlines growth in the New York market. A poster Delta4eva eluded to the fact in the beginning of this discussion that he thought American Airlines presence at JFK was after Delta Air Lines and he also said that they are "very neck and neck" in the New York market. I have provided statistical data with links to backup my proof that the lead of American Airlines over Delta Air Lines in the JFK market is of a small margin, yet overall in the New York market it is by a massive margin of 2,000,000 passengers. If anyone wants to insult me send it to me in an instant message, we need the forum to discuss not to insult people that provide evidence that their respective airline isnt the biggest and the best.

There is a lot of talk about Delta Air Lines and a massive expansion in the New York market for the 2008 calendar year, until the routes are announced it is all here say. Adding one flight to Edinburgh isnt massive. When Delta announces all of these grand routes, celebrate, start a thread. Just dont come into a thread that is about American Airlines and try to hijack it with pro-Delta propaganda, and try to insist that people that are providing proof are incorrect.

Lastly please refrain from using personal attacks against me and others that are discussing the topic at hand.

-JD

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 42): Just dont come into a thread that is about American Airlines and try to hijack it with pro-Delta propaganda, and try to insist that people that are providing proof are incorrect. Lastly please refrain from using personal attacks against me and others that are discussing the topic at hand.

Yes Jeremy, I have to agree with FLYGUY767 here.

I too would appreciate it if you kept to the topic in question and did not resort to personal insults.

Thanks,

Quoting TWA757 (Reply 34): Since AA is bringing MD-80s back to JFK, is there any chance STL-JFK goes mainline?

I really doubt that would occur. They only have one daily Eagle flight. The demand probably isn't there for mainline service, plus they don't want to seem to add mainline flights in STL. They are more interested in growing MIA and DFW.

Quoting FLYGUY767 (Reply 42): A poster Delta4eva eluded to the fact in the beginning of this discussion that he thought American Airlines presence at JFK was after Delta Air Lines and he also said that they are "very neck and neck" in the New York market.

This entire thread, you have continued to misquote people. Never did anyone say that DL was bigger than AA at JFK or in the NYC area. It was simply stated that AA and DL are neck and neck in the JFK market with AA slightly larger. The last time I checked, before this summer, AA and DL were very close in # of passengers at JFK. I thought that maybe since this summer, DL had surpassed AA. While this is not the case, it is highly possible that this will happen in the next year. With continued expansion, it is possible that DL will over take AA in the next few years. In reference to AA carrying 2,000,000 more, this gap will continue to grow smaller with DL's commitment to the New York area. At JFK, DL and AA are much closer. In addition, the past year has shown that DL is much more committed at expanding in JFK than AA.

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 45): In reference to AA carrying 2,000,000 more, this gap will continue to grow smaller with DL's commitment to the New York area.

American is starting to expand at JFK. That 2,000,000 passenger per year difference will remain.

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 45): Never did anyone say that DL was bigger than AA at JFK or in the NYC area. It was simply stated that AA and DL are neck and neck in the JFK market with AA slightly larger.

You have said.. New York Market not JFK Market

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 2): They are very neck-and-neck in the New York market. In fact, DL may have already surpassed AA in JFK. If they haven't already, then they will in the next year.

Thank You and Buona Notte..

-JD

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 46): American is starting to expand at JFK. That 2,000,000 passenger per year difference will remain.

Only if DL's expansion stops, which it's not. It's only getting started. The gap will get smaller and smaller and eventually disappear unless AA launches an all-out assault. DL's serious about JFK this time, just wait and see.

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 43): Yes Jeremy, I have to agree with FLYGUY767 here. I too would appreciate it if you kept to the topic in question and did not resort to personal insults. Thanks,

Since when have we not been allowed to address the posts of people on Airliners.net? Isn't your post essentially the same thing then?

Jeremy

I have a question... Why didn't AA focused on JFK years ago when they were based in NYC before moving headquarters to DFW? Or even after PA closed? Have built kind of an operation like CO now has at EWR?

AA could have better connections and revenues on the Latin America/ Europe/ Asia markets, taking into account that AA is the #1 US carrier all over Latin America and one of the most important US player in Europe, because of its strong presence at LHR and the partners in HEL and MAD especially... JFK will make more sense than ORD to Europe flights IMHO... what do you think? Any historical component here you guys might know?

Good Night!