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SHUPirate1
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Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:58 am

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ua777222
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:30 am

There are major issues with this story. Should it be true, that would raise a lot of alarms for security at Alaskan airports. I booked a flight on WN to SNA to see my sister in college over the summer, flight was overbooked, got my refund, and went right to JetBlue's check-in desk and paid cash for a ticket to LGB. Not only did I need to show the ticket agent two forms of ID (I thought it was a little excessive), but I was flagged for extra security during the screening process, which they also asked for my ID to verify with my ticket.

Disappointing that they haven't even clued into some of the basic principles of security.

Matthew
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atrude777
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:38 am

Quoting UA777222 (Reply 1):

What Security?

She was underage but not a Minor.

Anyone can buy a ticket.

1.You are not required to show an ID when you pay with cash, after all what if your buying for someone else? Your name on the ID, will not be the name on the ticket.
2. She went through security and she was screened like everyone else. Again, she is underage, you are not required to show an ID to go through security underage.
3. Even if she was flagged for SSSS, she wouold still have to go through with it.

She was 15, thats one year under the driving age.

I don't see anything wrong the airline did here, they followed all their procedures, she asked to buy a ticket, and they sold her one. Sure, they may have wondered where her parents were but she was not underage for a flight so no reason to bring it up.

Alex
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Alias1024
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:40 am

Quoting UA777222 (Reply 1):
Should it be true, that would raise a lot of alarms for security at Alaskan airports. I booked a flight on WN to SNA to see my sister in college over the summer, flight was overbooked, got my refund, and went right to JetBlue's check-in desk and paid cash for a ticket to LGB. Not only did I need to show the ticket agent two forms of ID (I thought it was a little excessive), but I was flagged for extra security during the screening process, which they also asked for my ID to verify with my ticket.

The article said that TSA rules do not require those under 18 to have their ID checked. The 15 year old went through the same security screening process as at other airports. So, how does this indicate a problem with Alaskan airports?
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AF340
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:53 am

Quoting Link:

"She went to the airline, and at that point in time purchased her ticket in denominations of ones and fives at the actual ticket counter"


Wouldn't anyone buying a ticket with ones and fives be suspicious, but I don't think the airline is responsible for this.

AF340
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:00 pm

She also got charges put against her for stealing.

I think States should issue id's at the of 12. Yes anyone can buy a ticket but a 15yr old with ones and fives gives me suspicion. They should have asked for her phone number and called the parents.

Hunter
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atrude777
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:02 pm

Quoting AF340 (Reply 4):
Wouldn't anyone buying a ticket with ones and fives be suspicious, but I don't think the airline is responsible for this.



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 5):
Yes anyone can buy a ticket but a 15yr old with ones and fives gives me suspicion. They should have asked for her phone number and called the parents.

At what basis does this raise suspicions?

Why does this raise suspicions and not 10's and 20's?

It is still cash.

I have had 1's and 5's myself for ticket transactions when I sold tickets, they didn't ring anything suspicious with me, nor with my other co workers who have also had that too.

Alex
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freshlove1
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:36 pm

Quoting AF340 (Reply 4):
Quoting Link:

"She went to the airline, and at that point in time purchased her ticket in denominations of ones and fives at the actual ticket counter"


Wouldn't anyone buying a ticket with ones and fives be suspicious, but I don't think the airline is responsible for this.

AF340

It don't matter if she paid the whole thing in 1's or 10's or whatever. Money is money to an airline no matter which way it is collected. I would almost gaurentee that she was flagged as an SSSS. Paying cash for a 1-way ticket less then 24 hours before departure will raise the flag and nail you for that. But still there is no reason she should have been stopped by the airline or TSA as she didn't really do anything wrong except run away from home.
 
Alias1024
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:40 pm

Quoting AF340 (Reply 4):
Wouldn't anyone buying a ticket with ones and fives be suspicious

Not a 15 year old. I'd think it was probably allowance money.
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rwsea
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:06 pm

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 5):
I think States should issue id's at the of 12. Yes anyone can buy a ticket but a 15yr old with ones and fives gives me suspicion. They should have asked for her phone number and called the parents.

Why don't we just take it one step further and require everyone to have an internal passport that must be displayed whenever they leave the city, just like in the good 'ol USSR  Yeah sure?

Look, nothing wrong happened here other than the girl stealing the money from her parents. AS did nothing wrong here. No ID is required for someone under 18.

I'm still not convinced that an ID does anything for security anyways. If you go through the security checkpoint, which should theoretically catch any sort of prohibited item, then what's the risk? You could have OBL himself on a flight, but if he's been properly screened according to procedure, then he's no more of a risk than anyone else in terms of harming the passengers or the plane.
 
chris133
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:08 pm

My question is why are airlines being singled out? They don't id you to buy a bus ticket across the country, or train, or cab so why should airlines be held responsible? Correct me if i'm wrong but most airlines are out to get passengers from one place to another and to make money. When did they become responsible for determining if someone should fly and questioning if they have permission to fly? Last time i checked it was still the parents job to know what their kids are doing and not a random company that happens to provide a service.
 
PacNWjet
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:10 pm

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 2):
She was underage but not a Minor

Disclaimer: I am not an attorney.

The age of majority in the United States is 18, so anyone under the age of 18 in the United States is legally a minor. Legally, minors have very few rights in the United States, unless they go to court and are granted the status of emancipated minor. Minors cannot enter into legally binding contracts unless an adult guardian acts as legal custodian. Although the AOL article states that individuals under the age of 18 are not barred from purchasing airplane tickets, an airplane ticket is a contract (as the airlines point out at every opportunity), and therefore it seems to me, even though I am not an attorney, an airline could refuse to sell a ticket to (i.e., enter into a contract with) a minor if it so chooses.

Again, I am not an attorney, but it certainly raises eyebrows why an airline would not balk given the circumstances described in the story.
 
atrude777
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:17 pm

Quoting PacNWJet (Reply 11):

I say Airline Terms, a Minor is someone who is 11 and under. an Underage person to an Airline is 17 and under.

I am speaking for SWA, a minor for SWA is 11 and under, not sure what other airlined follow, some are 12, and some are 13.

Alex
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BoomBoom
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:50 pm

There's more to the story:

Quote:
Pringle learned her daughter had purchased a ticket and was trying to leave town. Family members arrived at the airport trying to stop the girl from leaving. Airline employees refused to give them any of the girl's flight information, she said.

"They knew my daughter was on that plane but they would not remove my daughter from that plane," she said. "I did not authorize my daughter to leave Juneau."

"Under our policy, we do not release information of our passengers to members of the public who might call us," Bielawski said.

After her daughter's flight left Juneau, Pringle contacted Port of Seattle police.

Sea-Tac Airport spokesman Perry Cooper said Port of Seattle police were able to find the girl at the gate of her connecting flight.

"They spoke with her and convinced her to get on the phone and talk with her mother," Cooper said.

Because the teenager was considered an unreported runaway, police were unable to detain her, Cooper said. However, officers helped persuade her daughter to return to Juneau that evening.

Pringle said she had to pay roughly $400 for an Alaska Airlines ticket to return her child Wednesday night. With the initial ticket, she and her husband are out nearly $1,200, she said.

http://www.adn.com/front/story/9236829p-9152462c.html
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atrude777
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Wed Aug 22, 2007 2:08 pm

I watched the news about this, and it was said that Alaska Airlines has agreed to reimburse the total cost of the tickets.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
D328
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:36 pm

Let's just have the US be a big brother concept? Ha.. Oh wait we already just about doing that!
 
iflyswa
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Wed Aug 22, 2007 7:02 pm

Quoting PacNWJet (Reply 11):
Minors cannot enter into legally binding contracts unless an adult guardian acts as legal custodian. ...[A]n airplane ticket is a contract (as the airlines point out at every opportunity), and therefore it seems to me, even though I am not an attorney, an airline could refuse to sell a ticket to (i.e., enter into a contract with) a minor if it so chooses.

I'm not an attorney either, but minors CAN and do enter into legally binding contracts all the time. Generally, minors are not allowed to enter into certain types contracts, because contracts with minors are unenforceable, and a minor can chose to void the contract at any time up to their 18th birthday. After having turned 18, a contract created during the time that person was a minor can still be voided within a reasonable amount of time if it hasn't been ratified, or if too much time hasn't passed.

A sale of goods or services to a minor is an implied contract, and nobody gives much thought to the fact that minors spend billions and billions of dollars on these sales every year in this way. Those contracts are legally binding upon the merchant or service provider, but not enforceable upon the minor buyer. You are correct in that a merchant or service provider can chose not to enter into such a contract with a minor, but sellers of goods and services would be losing a large portion of sales by doing this.

I imagine that this situation presents itself much more infrequently to the airlines than to other businesses, but I have to agree with Freshlove1 that money is money to an airline, and it doesn't matter from whom it comes.

iflyswa
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SFO2SVO
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:58 am

I am not taking sides in this story - looks like quite some info is missing.
But curiois:
A reasonably young-looking person can walk up to a ticket desk, claim he/she is under 18, purchase a ticket for cash without showing an ID, then possibly give the ticket to another young person to fly?
Granted, the person going through security will get screened and most likely SSSS'ed - so there is not much of a security risk - but looks like at least a way to abuse youth discount fares and no-transfer policy.
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atrude777
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:06 am

Quoting SFO2SVO (Reply 17):
but looks like at least a way to abuse youth discount fares and no-transfer policy.

In that case, if a youth HAS purchased a Discount fare, or a Youth fare, we demand the Birth Certificate to prove the child's age and will not be given a ticket or a seat on board until that person has been given proof of a Birth Certifcate, EVERYONE has to have one, if no ID is with the person.

Quoting SFO2SVO (Reply 17):
A reasonably young-looking person can walk up to a ticket desk, claim he/she is under 18, purchase a ticket for cash without showing an ID, then possibly give the ticket to another young person to fly?

Again, the person TRAVELING must provide a proof of age, usually a birth certificate, not the person purchasing the ticket. If a proof of age is not shown on day of travel, that traveler will not fly.

Alex
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AirframeAS
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 14):
...Alaska Airlines has agreed to reimburse the total cost of the tickets.

Uhmm why? AS isn't at fault here. Why should they re-imburse the cost of the tickets. FWIW, it could be the girl's allowance money. Maybe the reason the parents want their daughter charged with theft is to get the girl to wake-up and smell the roses before she hurts herself. Thats how I see it. But how do you prove that cash was stolen from the parents? Its CASH meaning untracable in a way. I think the parents are going to far with charging their daughter. Ridiculous.

If I was AS, I wouldn't re-imburse any monies. That's a seat the girl bought that is supposed to be making money, not flying for free.
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ASMVPGOLD
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:49 am

Not sure how an ID makes a differance... if she has an ID (if she was 16 with a dl) she would have just shown it... same result. I'd say the parents are just looking to the rest of the world to parent their child. Lame story.. just parents looking for someone to blame.
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SFO2SVO
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:57 am

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 18):
A reasonably young-looking person can walk up to a ticket desk, claim he/she is under 18, purchase a ticket for cash without showing an ID, then possibly give the ticket to another young person to fly?

Again, the person TRAVELING must provide a proof of age, usually a birth certificate, not the person purchasing the ticket. If a proof of age is not shown on day of travel, that traveler will not fly.

Thank you for the reply - but youth/discount fare was not my main point:
the article states that she never had to show the ID:
So anybody who look under 18 can walk up to the counter give any name, purchase a non-youth/discount ticket and fly under false name or even give the ticket to someone else?
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atrude777
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Thu Aug 23, 2007 8:51 am

Quoting SFO2SVO (Reply 21):
So anybody who look under 18 can walk up to the counter give any name, purchase a non-youth/discount ticket and fly under false name or even give the ticket to someone else?

I am basing this on my experience working SWA, ANYONE, ANY AGE if purchasing a regular ticket with CASH does NOT need an ID, that is correct.

But basically what you are saying then is, anyone can purchase a ticket without an ID provided it is paid with Cash, then give it to ANOTHER Person, and all they (the person given the ticket) have to do is claim they do not have an ID, a boarding pass is given along with the ticket for them to go through security, SSSS will be marked, and they are searched.

That would take a lot of work but could be done.

Am I understanding what your saying?



Again folks, you have to remember, ANYONE of ANY AGE can fly without an ID, they would just be marked SSSS on their boarding pass.

Alex
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AIR757200
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:19 am

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 22):
Again folks, you have to remember, ANYONE of ANY AGE can fly without an ID, they would just be marked SSSS on their boarding pass.

This is correct. It happens all the time when people loose their wallets, etc.
 
SFO2SVO
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:28 am

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 22):

Am I understanding what your saying?

Yep, thank you for clarification!
So it is possible to give airline ticket to another person - and fly using someone else's ticket. Just too much trouble and does not make much sense.
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Tugger
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:42 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 13):
Quote:
Pringle learned her daughter had purchased a ticket and was trying to leave town. Family members arrived at the airport trying to stop the girl from leaving. Airline employees refused to give them any of the girl's flight information, she said.
"They knew my daughter was on that plane but they would not remove my daughter from that plane," she said. "I did not authorize my daughter to leave Juneau."
"Under our policy, we do not release information of our passengers to members of the public who might call us," Bielawski said.
After her daughter's flight left Juneau, Pringle contacted Port of Seattle police.

The girls parents made the mistake of not calling Juneau Police. They should have done that first when they found out that she was flying out. The police could have then retrieved her.

Tug
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EA CO AS
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:45 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 5):
They should have asked for her phone number and called the parents.

Why? Greyhound doesn't. The city bus doesn't. Taxis don't.

It's not the airline's responsibility to ensure someone has permission to travel before selling them a ticket.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 9):
Look, nothing wrong happened here other than the girl stealing the money from her parents. AS did nothing wrong here. No ID is required for someone under 18.

 checkmark 

Quoting Chris133 (Reply 10):
Correct me if i'm wrong but most airlines are out to get passengers from one place to another and to make money. When did they become responsible for determining if someone should fly and questioning if they have permission to fly? Last time i checked it was still the parents job to know what their kids are doing and not a random company that happens to provide a service.

 checkmark 

Quoting PacNWJet (Reply 11):
even though I am not an attorney, an airline could refuse to sell a ticket to (i.e., enter into a contract with) a minor if it so chooses.

Sure, but does it make sense to have customer service personnel ask for a permission slip from parents or guardians of any passengers under age 18? Isn't it the parent or guardian's responsibility to ensure their kids aren't traveling against their wishes in the first place?

Sounds like people are once again attempting to hold others accountable for their own lack of responsibility.
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thegreatchecko
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:55 am

Quoting AF340 (Reply 4):
Wouldn't anyone buying a ticket with ones and fives be suspicious, but I don't think the airline is responsible for this.

Especially in Alaska. Many of the people who live outside of the major cities with no access to a bank carry large amounts of cash with them.

Quoting Chris133 (Reply 10):
My question is why are airlines being singled out? They don't id you to buy a bus ticket across the country, or train, or cab so why should airlines be held responsible? Correct me if i'm wrong but most airlines are out to get passengers from one place to another and to make money. When did they become responsible for determining if someone should fly and questioning if they have permission to fly? Last time i checked it was still the parents job to know what their kids are doing and not a random company that happens to provide a service.

Exactly.  checkmark   checkmark 

Its not Alaska Airline's fault these parents didn't keep track of what their daughter was doing online and where she was. What I want to know is who is this creepster she met online. The parents are still responsible, but this guy can't be up to any good either.

Quoting PacNWJet (Reply 11):
an airline could refuse to sell a ticket to (i.e., enter into a contract with) a minor if it so chooses.

An airline can refuse to sell a ticket to whomever they choose for whatever reason, especially these days. "We felt he/she was a threat," can't argue with that, no matter how asinine it might be, unfortunately

Quoting ASMVPGOLD (Reply 20):
Not sure how an ID makes a differance... if she has an ID (if she was 16 with a dl) she would have just shown it... same result. I'd say the parents are just looking to the rest of the world to parent their child. Lame story.. just parents looking for someone to blame.

Bingo!!

Quoting Tugger (Reply 25):

The girls parents made the mistake of not calling Juneau Police. They should have done that first when they found out that she was flying out. The police could have then retrieved her.

I don't think these parents really have all their marbles together.

Run to the airport, try to get information from an airline agent by saying they are related to a passenger on the flight (I'm sure thats been used before) and then don't talk to the Juneau airport police on the spot to report the runaway and have their daughter removed from the flight. I bet they just sat there yelling at the agent like she could or would do something about it.

People need to take responsibility for their own actions!

Checko
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aa757first
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:14 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
Why should they re-imburse the cost of the tickets.

Because it probably wasn't that much and its better than negative publicity.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 26):

Sure, but does it make sense to have customer service personnel ask for a permission slip from parents or guardians of any passengers under age 18? Isn't it the parent or guardian's responsibility to ensure their kids aren't traveling against their wishes in the first place?

Yes, it is. But if a person too young to have ID came up to your ticket counter, paid for an airline ticket in $1s and $5 and wanted to leave that day, wouldn't it raise any red flags to you?
 
Viscount724
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:09 am

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 2):
She was 15, thats one year under the driving age.

Several US states permit marriage at age 15 with parental consent (even younger in a few states). One state (Mississippi) permits females to marry at age 15 without parental consent (17 for males).
http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/Table_Marriage.htm
 
iad51fl
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:21 am

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 28):
Yes, it is. But if a person too young to have ID came up to your ticket counter, paid for an airline ticket in $1s and $5 and wanted to leave that day, wouldn't it raise any red flags to you?

Re read the 2nd story above:

"Nearly a week earlier, the girl bought a $733 one-way ticket with cash at the Juneau International Airport. On Wednesday, she was able to board a plane without identification."

So it was a 7 day advance purchase.... no flags there...
15 yo traveling alone..... no flags there...
Had boarding pass ...... no flags there....

Still havent found these flags yet....

Chris
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atrude777
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:06 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):

What does this have to do with anything?

I brought up the driving age because you need an ID for that.

You do not need a photo ID to marry.

Alex
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AirframeAS
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:13 pm

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 28):
Because it probably wasn't that much and its better than negative publicity.

This is small potatos to AS. They could care less. The only thing AS is responsbile for is getting a pax from point A to point B safely. They are not there to babysit. And I'm saying this in general, not job position specific.
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EDICHC
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Thu Aug 23, 2007 6:18 pm

Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 27):
I don't think these parents really have all their marbles together.

They are clearly bonkers, at one point they state they wanted their daughter's identity to be kept private then they go and appear on TV and are identified themselves! Now Juneau isn't exactly the biggest place in the world and you wouldn't have to be a rocket scientist to work out the girl's identity.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
Why should they re-imburse the cost of the tickets.

Putting it simply PR! I'm quite sure the airline's legal dept would have cleared that with a 'without prejudice' condition.
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:04 pm

I can't see why the airline has to have parental consent on selling air tickets. I routinely used to book flights and trips on other modes of long distance transport between the ages of 16-18 without ever needing parental consent.





J
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RE: Runaway Gets On AS Flight Without Problem!

Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:07 pm

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 28):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 26):

Sure, but does it make sense to have customer service personnel ask for a permission slip from parents or guardians of any passengers under age 18? Isn't it the parent or guardian's responsibility to ensure their kids aren't traveling against their wishes in the first place?

Yes, it is. But if a person too young to have ID came up to your ticket counter, paid for an airline ticket in $1s and $5 and wanted to leave that day, wouldn't it raise any red flags to you?

Could be their allowance. Could be tips they earned at their after-school job. Could be donations from friends to go see Grandma.

Regardless, it's not the airline's responsibility to ask customers if they REALLY should be traveling or not.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group

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