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miner
Topic Author
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:23 am

TAM And DL To Fly From CNF (Belo Horizonte)?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:31 pm

From Estado de Minas: http://www.uai.com.br/UAI/html/sessa...cia=26227/em_noticia_interna.shtml

Highlights:

- TAM announced that it may initiate up to 4x weekly from CNF to FRA
- DL has submitted a requested ANAC permission for CNF-ATL
- DL has also requested permission to fly to Panama.
- Gov't has demonstrated interest in the proposal due to the existing demand created by the consortium of construction companies Andrade Gutierres and Odebrech for the widening work at the Panama Canal

If this is confirmed, it should be great news for "Belorizontinos", finally.
 
AF086
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RE: TAM And DL To Fly From CNF (Belo Horizonte)?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 10:51 pm

There was an article at O Globo a few months ago with an interview with a DL executive and he stated that the airline was studying other brazilian markets (POA, BHZ, REC, SSA, MAO and BSB come to my mind). So it can actually become a reality.

As for CNF-FRA with TAM I highly doubt it will ever come true, what might happen is a CNF-GRU leg operated by a smaller aircraft carrying the same flight number of the GRU-FRA service. TAM has bigger fish to fry such as GRU-MAD (to begin shortly), consolidate the new GRU-FRA service, expand their international ops at GIG (MIA, JFK and LHR come to my mind) and at the northeast and perhaps a CNF-MIA daylight service.
 
incitatus
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RE: TAM And DL To Fly From CNF (Belo Horizonte)?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:10 pm

I read the article and while I have great respect for Aecio Neves, I think the whole thing is delusional. If the state government has a "technical" study demonstrating the viability of more flights at CNF, why take it to the federal government? The federal government is not an airline! There may be an interest in getting the federal government to support it and get out of the way, but the foremost interested party is made of airlines.

The 3000m runway at CNF still restricts CNF-Europe flights so their best bet right now is to partner with an airline willing to offer service to the US and then push the federal government to rework the bilateral.
 
miner
Topic Author
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RE: TAM And DL To Fly From CNF (Belo Horizonte)?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:11 pm

Quoting AF086 (Reply 1):
As for CNF-FRA with TAM I highly doubt it will ever come true, what might happen is a CNF-GRU leg operated by a smaller aircraft carrying the same flight number of the GRU-FRA service

This makes sense. But I'm also aware that there's a big german community here in Belo Horizonte also related to the steel and mining business. Will it ever fill up a plane? I don't have the numbers.
 
tonytifao
Posts: 800
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:22 pm

RE: TAM And DL To Fly From CNF (Belo Horizonte)?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:13 pm

If DL or AA flies to CNF either direct from ATL or MIA, or as a continuation from GRU, this would be the news of the YEAR  Smile Can't wait. Mark also said the Belo Horizonte government was having talks with AA soon to bring back service.
 
positiverate
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RE: TAM And DL To Fly From CNF (Belo Horizonte)?

Wed Aug 22, 2007 11:52 pm

DL's strategy with Brazil has always interested me. I think they view it as a potenitally lucrative market, but never have been able to quite crack into it. There have been fits and starts, notably with the Varig and Transbrasil codeshares. Perhaps they have decided the best way to capitalize on the Brazil market is to simply fly the routes themselves?
 
LipeGIG
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RE: TAM And DL To Fly From CNF (Belo Horizonte)?

Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:14 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 5):
Perhaps they have decided the best way to capitalize on the Brazil market is to simply fly the routes themselves?

Seems that they realize there is a big market waiting for non-stop flights in places like BSB, Northeast and CNF. CNF as i use to say, is probably the largest city in the world (or one of the largest) without non-stop international services, which is a shame ! DL is doing extremely well in Brazil with loads around 85% year round on their two routes out of ATL, and a little lower on the one from JFK.

Quoting Miner (Thread starter):
TAM announced that it may initiate up to 4x weekly from CNF to FRA

It's old as TAM just got the 4x weekly to GRU, where they are looking for. They already announced a daily service to FRA, not from CNF.

Quoting Miner (Thread starter):
DL has submitted a requested ANAC permission for CNF-ATL
- DL has also requested permission to fly to Panama.

There are rumors about a revision on the bilateral US x Brazil under negotiation, and it should froze frequencies to São Paulo.

Quoting AF086 (Reply 1):
expand their international ops at GIG (MIA, JFK and LHR come to my mind) and at the northeast and perhaps a CNF-MIA daylight service.

May be in 2012..... but GIG-MIA is now expected only for 2008.

Felipe
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: TAM And DL To Fly From CNF (Belo Horizonte)?

Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting Miner (Thread starter):
- DL has submitted a requested ANAC permission for CNF-ATL

Would certainly be nice to have another city in Brazil, sure can't be bad for Brazilians to have more choiced outside of GRU and GIG. Should certainly be doable.

Quoting Miner (Thread starter):
DL has also requested permission to fly to Panama.

Now, what is behind this idea? Is Copa flying PTY-CNF and DL just wants to codeshare? I can't really see a reason for DL to serve that route.
 
miner
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RE: TAM And DL To Fly From CNF (Belo Horizonte)?

Thu Aug 23, 2007 12:21 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 5):
DL's strategy with Brazil has always interested me. I think they view it as a potenitally lucrative market, but never have been able to quite crack into it. There have been fits and starts, notably with the Varig and Transbrasil codeshares. Perhaps they have decided the best way to capitalize on the Brazil market is to simply fly the routes themselves?

Brazil is a lucrative market. Both DL and UA had been facing major $ problems in the past years so AA basically dominated the space. The US airlines also know that very soon they'll face some competition from the Brazilian airlines. TAM is expanding quite rapidly and RG is getting back on its feet.

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 4):
If DL or AA flies to CNF either direct from ATL or MIA, or as a continuation from GRU,

I believe that any of the proposed flights out of CNF would be nonstop. The arguments are: 1) You have enough demand and 2) GRU is out of the question, so fly from CNF
 
tonytifao
Posts: 800
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RE: TAM And DL To Fly From CNF (Belo Horizonte)?

Thu Aug 23, 2007 4:00 am

Does anyone know how much US airlines make on average with each flight to Brazil? Fares are so damn expensive and flights are always quite full.

Here is a little math I have...

from AA.com

MIA - JFK = ~1000 miles - ticket cost ~ $200
MIA - GRU = ~4000 miles - ticket cost ~ 1200

You can take 4 rt from MIA to JFK and still spend less than one trip to Brazil!
 
worldtraveler
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Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: TAM And DL To Fly From CNF (Belo Horizonte)?

Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:56 am

Quoting Positiverate (Reply 5):
DL's strategy with Brazil has always interested me. I think they view it as a potenitally lucrative market, but never have been able to quite

crack into it.



Quoting Miner (Reply 8):
Both DL and UA had been facing major $ problems in the past years so AA basically dominated the space.

You truly are joking, aren't you? What happened post 9/11 is ancient history, not only for DL and Rio but also for all of Latin America and every other airline.

DL is the 2nd largest airline in Brazil, managed to take one of UA's daily frequencies away because it was unused, and is using every available frequency plus extra frequencies available to it.

DL's Brazil operation is highly profitable according to its execs and they clearly want more. You don't lose money in a region and then ask for every possible opportunity to expand your service.

Notice from the article (if you can read Portuguese) that local and state leaders in Belo want to see CNF become a regional transportation gateway.... and that is being played out around Brazil. The problems that are causing cutbacks and limts on new flights in Sao Paulo are exactly what is giving hope to alot of other Brazilian cities to finally get their own international flights instead of playing second fiddle to Rio and Sao Paulo. AA and DL will eventually both expand aggressively in Brazil and if CO and UA want to play in addition to what the Brazilian airlines do, they will probably get a chance too. There is more than enough demand to add alot more flights than exist now.

Remember also that the US is in the process of admitting Brazil and Argentina to the visa waiver program which will cause air traffic between the US and Brazil to soar.
 
SJOtoLIR
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RE: TAM And DL To Fly From CNF (Belo Horizonte)?

Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:37 am

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 4):
If DL or AA flies to CNF either direct from ATL or MIA, or as a continuation from GRU, this would be the news of the YEAR

It makes no sense any DL´s ATL-CNF-GRU. Probably no traffic rights between CNF and GRU then hurting loads and yields.


.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 7):
Is Copa flying PTY-CNF and DL just wants to codeshare?

CM does not fly to CNF. In Brazil, CM operates in MAO, GIG and GRU using their own aircrafts. Be aware that the agreement between CM-G3 does not cover CNF.


.

Quoting Miner (Thread starter):
DL has also requested permission to fly to Panama.

DL has announced new services in Central America through JFK becoming its new priority in the area. JFK-PTY starts in December. No idea about any CNF-PTY.
Regards.
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: TAM And DL To Fly From CNF (Belo Horizonte)?

Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:28 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 10):
Remember also that the US is in the process of admitting Brazil and Argentina to the visa waiver program which will cause air traffic between the US and Brazil to soar.

Given the illegal immigration debate in the U.S.A., I would highly doubt the U.S.A. will admit Brazil and Argentina in the Visa Waiver programme. It was the U.S.A who forced México to require Brazilians Mexican visas, the numbers of Brazilians going illegally to the U.S.A. thru México was incredible.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 11):
CM does not fly to CNF. In Brazil, CM operates in MAO, GIG and GRU using their own aircrafts. Be aware that the agreement between CM-G3 does not cover CNF.

CM might improve their code-share agreement with G3 soon to include other major Brazilian cities. As of CM having CNF on their wish list, I wouldn't doubt it.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 11):
No idea about any CNF-PTY

With CM joining SkyTeam, if DL wants they could fly a B757/B737-800 ATL-PTY-CNF and code-share with both CM and CO. Not the most attractive service (and maybe schedule), but it could be something that could be done fairly easily and fast. DL has one plane overnight in PTY and CO 2, so flying those aircraft to Brazil with a quick turn around would benefit DL, CO and CM.
 
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donzilasse
Posts: 218
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RE: TAM And DL To Fly From CNF (Belo Horizonte)?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:55 am

I believe that AA would have an easier time to make CNF to MIA profitable. South Florida's large Brazilian communities is growing larger every day and many Brazilians here comes from Minas. The AA connections from MIA to the Northeast as well as the carribean could also support an effort like this. Personally, as a Floridian I would never choose a flight to Brazil through Atlanta, Hartsfield.

Lasse
 
miner
Topic Author
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RE: TAM And DL To Fly From CNF (Belo Horizonte)?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting Donzilasse (Reply 13):
I believe that AA would have an easier time to make CNF to MIA profitable.

That's what has been the talk all along, a service to MIA, not ATL or JFK. CNF has good cargo loads too.
 
LipeGIG
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: TAM And DL To Fly From CNF (Belo Horizonte)?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting Donzilasse (Reply 13):
I believe that AA would have an easier time to make CNF to MIA profitable

I can say to you that both airlines would have an easy task to produce a profitable flight to CNF. It's by far the biggest market for immigration, not low yield because several of them nowadays are owners of small business, there are corporate ties not only with Miami, but also with Boston and Newark areas.

DL proved to be very smart and turn their network in Brazil on a strong and profitable operation. I believe this year (summer) the network is closer to the best fit, just a couple adjustments are required.

AA in the other hand, focus more on São Paulo, so i believe they will not venture on CNF because they know the size of Minas Gerais and it could produce less pax on Y (and even C) for their operations in São Paulo.

DL in the other hand, would be a winner as there are not so many pax connecting at GIG and GRU from CNF as AA.

Felipe
 
worldtraveler
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RE: TAM And DL To Fly From CNF (Belo Horizonte)?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:48 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 12):
air traffic between the US and Brazil to soar.

Given the illegal immigration debate in the U.S.A., I would highly doubt the U.S.A. will admit Brazil and Argentina in the Visa Waiver programme.

The US has already initiated the process of admitting Brazil and Argentina to the US visa waiver program. The only real obstacle is that the US requires visa waiver travelers must have machine readable passports which few Brazilians have.

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 15):
AA in the other hand, focus more on São Paulo, so i believe they will not venture on CNF because they know the size of Minas Gerais and it could produce less pax on Y (and even C) for their operations in São Paulo.

DL in the other hand, would be a winner as there are not so many pax connecting at GIG and GRU from CNF as AA.

Interesting assessment. People on a.net have no comprehension of DL's desire to become a significant force in Latin America - and how certain it is that they will succeed. They are within small percentages of overtaking CO in Latin America despite CO's much longer presence in the region. DL is in growth mode now because they know this is their opportunity to secure their longterm int'l future while few other airlines are prepared to react as quickly as DL is moving.

But the reality is that AA won't stand still. While most of AA's longhaul network is focused on a relatively few cities compared w/ DL and CO's network which is very well spread out, AA does blanket S. America and it is not likely they will sit still. The reality is that the Brazilian and Argentinian markets are huge so AA, DL, and the respective foreign airlines will all have plenty of business.
 
miner
Topic Author
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:23 am

RE: TAM And DL To Fly From CNF (Belo Horizonte)?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:43 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 16):
While most of AA's longhaul network is focused on a relatively few cities compared w/ DL and CO's network which is very well spread out, AA does blanket S. America and it is not likely they will sit still.

I think AA's longhaul network is the one that's mostly spread out, no?
 
C010T3
Posts: 1967
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RE: TAM And DL To Fly From CNF (Belo Horizonte)?

Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:46 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 16):
People on a.net have no comprehension of DL's desire to become a significant force in Latin America - and how certain it is that they will succeed.

I think that's because you have a more South American perspective of what Latin America is. Having a strong presence in Mexico is not that hard from Houston and the Caribbean does not really count, since the network is built to serve mainly the incoming US-American tourists. Concerning US-American presence in Latin America, I only start counting from Guatemala to the south.

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