Aero Sur Bolivia (5L) To Purchase 787?

123 · Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:26 pm

As per today´s press release: http://www.lostiempos.com/noticias/23-08-07/23_08_07_eco7.php (sorry, only in Spanish), 5L will/has purchased 6 x 787's from Boeing.

This info came as surprise also for myself. Any a.netter has more info than the enclosed press release?

b752fanatic · Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:33 pm

And from where these 'airlines' get financing?

CHRISBA777ER · Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:43 pm

Arent they in bankruptcy? I thought they were on the edge of going out of business??

cbartolucci · Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:51 pm

In today's El Deber, it mentions AeroSur obtaining a couple 767s:
http://www.eldeber.com.bo/2007/2007-...ernotaeconomia.php?id=070822224844

Other news from yesterday's newspaper:

Two new Bolivian airlines: 1) Aereolineas Sudamericans and 2) Aereolineas Bolivianas.
http://www.eldeber.com.bo/2007/2007-...2/vernotaaldia.php?id=070821181401

and

No hope for LAB to fly again soon:
http://www.eldeber.com.bo/2007/2007-...ernotaeconomia.php?id=070822002959

123 · Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:55 pm

Quoting Cbartolucci (Reply 3):
it mentions AeroSur obtaining a couple 767s

And as per Los Tiempos it will be one 767.

Who knows, Humberto Roca is giving different infos to the press, or the journalists cannot understand the differences between the 7xx series of Boeing? If 5L says they are getting a couple of 721 / 732, I believe directly without doubts! But a couple of 767 / 787 does sound strange, that is why I also started this thread.

USADreamliner · Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):
I thought they were on the edge of going out of business??

That is LAB (Lloyd Aereo Boliviano)

Quoting 123 (Reply 4):
And as per Los Tiempos it will be one 767.

I can see that.
By no chance a 787.

b752fanatic · Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:38 am

I wouldn't be too surprised if they did get a 787, African airlines have already firm orders for 787's nations in which their GDP are in the bottom of the list, lower than Bolivia.

TKV · Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:46 am

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 5):
That is LAB (Lloyd Aereo Boliviano)

I do not see major contradictions, other than the customary lack of precision of the reporters of EL DEBER but there is there is no confusion between B767 and B787 !

The LOS TIEMPOS article is concrete and refer to the president Humberto ROCA, stating that they will
receive short term 1 B767 and 1 B727, indicating concretely the routes they will fly.
He also says tha they intend to buy 6 B787 (the reference of 280 pax seems to be generic and IMO does not mean it will be all B789), for delivery 2012 and at a cost of $ 600M, both credible).

The article of EL DEBER is vague (probably it was written before the statements of ROCA) and refer to some "executives" and seem to have got wrong the type (not mentioning the B727) and the quantity of the short term acquisitions (3 instead of 2). This article do not refer to the future 6 B787 deal at all

As where the money comes from; in Bolivia there are very wealthy private persons, even if the country is very poor.

TKV

juventus · Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:49 am

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 5):
I can see that.
By no chance a 787.

The 787 is not entirely impossible. This would take place several years from now, this airline could be doing well and growing substantially if LAB does not recover.

However, I agree with USADreamliner, I see some 767s on their inmediate future.

TKV · Fri Aug 24, 2007 5:59 am

Quoting Juventus (Reply 8):
The 787 is not entirely impossible. This would take place several years from now, this airline could be doing well and growing substantially if LAB does not recover.

However, I agree with USADreamliner, I see some 767s on their immediate future.

As Mr. ROCA said, there is one B767 in the short term. It is also clear the he intends to buy B787 and not B767 for 2012. It i not impossible that they could lease some gap-fillers until them, between other B767 but nothing indicates in the article of Los Tiempos that this is an issue B767 versus B787 !

TKV

ghost77 · Sat Aug 25, 2007 3:37 am

Wow! Unbelievable! Hope this rumors are true! That would be a fleet in size bigger to AM's 5 B787s and MX long haul fleet.

123, please keep us posted!

g77

TKV · Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:42 am

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 6):
I wouldn't be too surprised if they did get a 787, African airlines have already firm orders for 787's nations in which their GDP are in the bottom of the list, lower than Bolivia.

Very true !! Well doing higher middle and upper class in sadly very poor countries constitutes a market for also very well funded local public and private investors. China is a gigantic example of such, which a GNP/person similar as Bolivia !!!

TKV

cityairline · Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:53 am

Wow, I also hope that it is true. It would be really great to see. This would probably make it easier for them to improve their services to Europe.
I've always seen reaching Bolivia from Europe as kind of difficult. It feels like this would improve alot.

//Alex

TKV · Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting CityAirline (Reply 12):
I've always seen reaching Bolivia from Europe as kind of difficult. It feels like this would improve alot.

This is a typical example how worldwide point-to-point flights will siphon passengers from trunk lines. Today, if a very long flight from Europe with about 2-3 scales is not the choice, you fly from lets say Paris to Sao Paulo in a B747 and transfer there to Bolivia, as do many passengers to Montevideo, Asuncion, Curitiba, Porto Alegre, etc. In the future, there will be more direct flights and less transfers in Sao Paulo..

In the past, airlines from smaller countries (pax wise) could not afford such direct flights, as only too large and costly frames could do this, this changes now with the B787, affecting the VLA's.

TKV

cityairline · Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:35 am

Quoting TKV (Reply 13):

Yes exactly, which is absolutely fantastic.
It's good to see more n/s, but the major airlines flying trunk routes, won't be going as much forwards on their trunk routes as their transfer pax get new n/s alternatives.

//Alex

SJOtoLIR · Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:01 am

Quoting TKV (Reply 13):
This is a typical example how worldwide point-to-point flights will siphon passengers from trunk lines. Today, if a very long flight from Europe with about 2-3 scales is not the choice, you fly from lets say Paris to Sao Paulo in a B747 and transfer there to Bolivia, as do many passengers to Montevideo, Asuncion, Curitiba, Porto Alegre, etc. In the future, there will be more direct flights and less transfers in Sao Paulo..

Those passengers travelling from Europe to Bolivia may choose the nonstop MAD-VVI either on LB or A7. They do not operate daily.
On the other hand, a transfer from Sao Paulo area to Bolivia means a backtracking flight.
An easier choice: KL flies AMS-LIM then continue with another airline to LPB or VVI.
Regards.

md90fan · Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:51 am

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 6):
African airlines have already firm orders for 787's nations in which their GDP are in the bottom of the list, lower than Bolivia.

What's that got to do with anything? Yeah sure

Arik Air (7 787s), Ethiopian Airlines (10 787s), Kenyan Airlines (9+4 787s),Royal Air Maroc (4+1 787s) all operate modern fleets and are profitable entities, what are you trying to say? The airlines in mention are all possess more modern fleets, have larger networks, make more money, have more investors, codeshare partners than any suspicious airline from Bolivia.

Btw the airlines in mention have been this way since 2006, 1945, 1977 and 1953, respectively.

Quoting TKV (Reply 7):
He also says tha they intend to buy 6 B787 (the reference of 280 pax seems to be generic and IMO does not mean it will be all B789), for delivery 2012 and at a cost of $ 600M, both credible).

I don't see the planes flying anywhere besides Madrid, Miami and maybe a Brazilian city, and that doesn't require 6 787s. It would be kind of cool to see an airline flying 727s and 787s side by side though cool

cbartolucci · Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:09 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 16):
I don't see the planes flying anywhere besides Madrid, Miami and maybe a Brazilian city

How about Washington DC, Panama City, Cancun, Mexico City, and Havana...

By the way, I saw in today's El Deber that AeroSur will sign a "contract" with Delta Airlines on August 30th... Anyone know anything about this?
http://www.eldeber.com.bo/2007/2007-...ernotaeconomia.php?id=070823234848

md90fan · Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:30 am

Quoting Cbartolucci (Reply 17):
How about Washington DC, Panama City, Cancun, Mexico City, and Havana...

Flying 787s to HAV,IAD,PTY,CUN,MEX? (All except MEX and PTY lack non-stop service to larger, nearby, more affluent Lima) Sounds like a good way to waste money, those destinations are better served with narrowbodies, with that being said, I don't see a Bolivian airline becoming really serious about things and flying to those destinations non-stop with economical aircraft before the end of the decade.

I hope am wrong, though.

MAH4546 · Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:43 am

One 767-200ER is set to arrive by December. It will operate the Miami-Santa Cruz route.

kbdude · Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:42 pm

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 5):
By no chance a 787

Well... there is a 6x787-8 UFO order (July 13th 2007) on Boeings wesbite.....

ghost77 · Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:57 pm

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 18):
Flying 787s to HAV,IAD,PTY,CUN,MEX? (All except MEX and PTY lack non-stop service to larger, nearby, more affluent Lima)

All except MEX? LB's been out from MEX and i think PTY since March 07. LB too when they were doing the things right and sending their B767s they had high load factors on route. Of course, many flew LB to EZE as well as GRU and connected in Bolivia.

g77

md90fan · Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:00 pm

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 21):
LB's been out from MEX and i think PTY since March 07. LB too when they were doing the things right and sending their B767s they had high load factors on route.

Hey Ghost77,

I was referring that Habana, Cancun and Washington D.C all lack non-stop service to Lima.

cbartolucci · Sun Aug 26, 2007 12:05 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 18):
nearby, more affluent Lima

LIM to VVI is the same distance as PHL to MIA. Not only is it far, but it's expensive. The average fare between LIM and VVI or LPB is about $500 r/t.

And I still believe that IAD could see service to VVI in the near future.

[Edited 2007-08-25 17:24:43]

ghost77 · Sun Aug 26, 2007 2:58 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 22):

Oh sorry i reread your post!! I totally agree with you. Have a nice day! BTW, JR is getting its 1st MD83 ex. AS real soon!! I'm sure you'll be happy for this. As probably in 10 years the B717 will get in their hands.

g77

TKV · Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:28 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 16):
Arik Air (7 787s), Ethiopian Airlines (10 787s), Kenyan Airlines (9 4 787s),Royal Air Maroc (4 1 787s) all operate modern fleets and are profitable entities, what are you trying to say? The airlines in mention are all possess more modern fleets, have larger networks, make more money, have more investors, codeshare partners than any suspicious airline from Bolivia.

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 18):
I don't see a Bolivian airline becoming really serious about things and flying to those destinations non-stop with economical aircraft before the end of the decade.

I do not know about Ethiopian, but Arik is a nearly newcomer in violent expansion

Your argument sees to base more on that Aero Sur is a Bolivian (reply 18) , as you put it, a "suspicious" airline (Reply 16): Could you elaborate ?? I do not see anything on Internet justifying such kind of accusation, what I can see is an Airline in positive expansion, possible helped by Lloyd woes !!

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 16):
I don't see the planes flying anywhere besides Madrid, Miami and maybe a Brazilian city, and that doesn't require 6 787s

If you add a few destinations, as La Paz - Mex (already announced) - LAX (connecting there to Far East flights by other) , already 6 frames were required. And not forgetting that if the first will be delivered by 2012, we are speaking of the years 2012 - 2015 !

Presently the best you can do is Madrid - Lima direct (A346, 5950 nm, 380 pax?, 12h)) Lima-La Paz (650 nm) = 6,600 nm, 17 h.incl. transfer (if there were a better connection, it could be ~15 h)

With a direct flight Madrid - La Paz (B787 210 pax, probably lower CASM) = 5600 nm, ~ 11 h

If you wish to make La Paz - LAX, you need presently about 15-16 hours, with 2 transfers , mainly in uncomfortable narrow bodies. With a direct B787 flight, with good connections to Far East flights by other(China, Japan, Korea), it would be less than 8.5-9 hours or ~10-11 hours with 1 stop in Mexico City
And even assuming the improbable fact that by 2015 there will not be enough pax to fly a 210 seat B787-8, a commercial payload could be added.

TKV

SJOtoLIR · Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:15 am

Quoting TKV (Reply 25):
With a direct flight Madrid - La Paz

Quoting TKV (Reply 25):
If you add a few destinations, as La Paz - Mex

LPB is 13300 feet high.
Because altitude restrictions these flights are not be possible when the aircraft have been fully packed.
As a reference, AA operates MIA-LBP-VVI-MIA and flights to MAD are currently departing from VVI.
Regards.

juventus · Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting TKV (Reply 25):
If you wish to make La Paz - LAX, you need presently about 15-16 hours, with 2 transfers , mainly in uncomfortable narrow bodies.

If a Bolivian airline could get 5th freedom rights in Mexico, wouldn't it make sense to operate the 767 on this route Santa Cruz-La Paz-Mexico City-Los Angeles????

TKV · Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 26):
LPB is 13300 feet high.
Because altitude restrictions these flights are not be possible when the aircraft have been fully packed.
As a reference, AA operates MIA-LBP-VVI-MIA and flights to MAD are currently departing from VVI

Point well taken. But the B787has a full load range up to 8200 nm, whilst the distance to Madrid is only
5700 nm., which should provide the necessary compensation for the altitude. This need to be checked anyway.
To Mexico we have only 2,600, to Lax 4,200 nm, therefore there should not be a problem.

TKV

MAH4546 · Mon Aug 27, 2007 6:58 am

Quoting Juventus (Reply 27):
If a Bolivian airline could get 5th freedom rights in Mexico, wouldn't it make sense to operate the 767 on this route Santa Cruz-La Paz-Mexico City-Los Angeles????

There is no "if" there. Mexico does not grant fifth freedom rights between the US and Mexico.

cbartolucci · Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:06 am

I just saw this from another post: American Airlines service changes to Bolivia. AA will reduce overall service from 12 weekly flights to 10 weekly flights. However, instead of operating all flights on a MIA-LPB-VVI-MIA routing, AA will operate a daily MIA-LPB-VVI-MIA routing and three weekly MIA-VVI-MIA flights.

I'm assuming AA wants to compete with AeroSur's direct flights to VVI, instead of doing the triangle...

TKV · Mon Aug 27, 2007 7:11 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 29):
There is no "if" there. Mexico does not grant fifth freedom rights between the US and Mexico.

I really did not expect they would. Mexico would get a separte flight as son as Lax has enough pax.

TKV

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