drewwright
Posts: 530
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:02 am

People are afraid to fly. It's the number one phobia. News stations play on this to get ratings. Would you buy fish caught in China? Drive a car with Firestone tires? Same thing.... There is always a risk. I doubt some silly news story will keep many off the planes. The more reaction they get, positive or negative, just gives them more reason to keep airing such stories.....


DRW
 
SPREE34
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:15 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 12):
Sorry, folks, but this isn't a smear campaign or anything blown out of proportion.

Correct. I was lousy incomplete reporting. It was a "scare them" piece. Oh those terrible mean airlines. Almost as bad as those subversive ATC types.

Quoting National757 (Reply 21):
Possible safety concerns? Please! Treacherous conditions? Gimmie a break..sounds like Fox Colorado is trying to scare people and make a big deal over nothing.

IMO that is all Fox is good for. "We report, you decide." Well, one needs enough information to make an intelligent decision. Fox isn't enough.

Quoting KingCavalier (Reply 24):
And what was the point of this story........................?

To scare people and sell advertising.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 37):
Folks, this is yet another fine example of "facts" being reported, and "context" ignored, but hey, that's showbiz!



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 40):
Jet aircraft unsafe because they lack propellers.... Film at 11...

Nah, they just hide the propellers in nacelles to make you think they lack them. OH MY GOD, Every airline serving Denver has no props on their jets. Oh the humanity.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
hsw3rd
Posts: 7
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:16 am

Lesson in this? Don't watch FOX, it's too right wing (sorry, couldn't resist)!  Wink
 
flydreamliner
Posts: 1928
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:05 am

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:16 am

Wow, I can't help but wonder if someone at Fox Colorado isn't a UA shareholder.....

At least they got a picture of the right plane for their story... never ceases to surprise me how often they fail at that.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
F9Animal
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:19 am

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 11):
Actually, Skywest does fly the Dash 8 for United. Not the 400 version, but still a Dash 8. They are the same type of plane, just different versions. (The 73G is the same type as a 738, different versions.) To the flying public, a Dash 8-200 is a Dash 8-400 is an ATR 72.

Anyone else think another airline paid the station to do the smear about F9? Maybe another major DEN carrier?

The fact that F9 even allowed this clown to come out to the flight line and check out the Q400 shows that F9 obviously is not concerned. Although I too agree that this reporter failed to look at the facts before even breaking the story. I was happy to see the interior shot of the Q400 though! Nice!!!!

I doubt anyone paid the news to go out and do this report. Just another slow news day I guess.

As for the report, I was hoping the reporter would get a little closer to the tail so the animal could defecate on him. LOL!  Smile oops, did I really just say that!?
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
F9Animal
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:20 am

Oh man! I was hoping to edit out the defecating part! Oh well, at least you all know that was my intention. I don't know what got over me!
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:35 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 49):
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 48):
Like I said before, if this Q400 has it's Airworthiness Certificate issued by the F.A.A., then it's not a big of a deal. Full Stop!

And you are one Joe Q. Public that has decided this.

If I understand you correctly, I didnt decide this. The F.A.A. decided this under Title 14 CFR 25 & 29 (Maybe 23??). Its outlined in there, I believe. This is what is taught in A&P school. Each aircraft has its very own Airworthiness Certificate. So if this one has its own Airworthiness Certificate, its not even an issue because the F.A.A. rep inspected this very aircraft personally.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
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mariner
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:36 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 49):
Fox News' moniker from network to affiliates is We Report, You Decide.

But it isn't that.

I am always reluctant to take to Fox News - there are reasons why the owner is nicknamed "the Dirty Digger" - but they do a deal more than report - they editorialize.

The opening words of this report are: "Possible safety concerns..." - a statement, not a question. This is editorializing, an immediate subjective slant - a decision - before the reporting has begun.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 12):
I think Frontier needed to make another person or two available with some stronger comments and United should have commented.

Maybe they did. We will never know, because we have no idea what they left on the cutting room floor (old terminology).

It is the usual Fox trick - requiring people to disprove a negative. O'Reilly, for example, is the master of it. I don't like it - but I admire the skill with which he does it.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 55):
I don't know what got over me!

LOL.  Smile

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
onaclearday
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:35 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:37 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 49):
Quoting OnAClearDay (Reply 36):Who said what?
The report attributes the FAA.

The SOT from the Frontier pilot is sound verbatim from him.

Responding to their quotes in the piece, you said:

Quoting STLGph (Reply 25):
If it's not that big of a concern, the FAA and the airline should have stepped up to the plate and commented on this more thoroughly than what they did.

And I said:

Quoting OnAClearDay (Reply 34):
You make a weak point because it's certainly possible that additional comments by Frontier representatives or even the FAA were omitted from this story.

In the end, a poorly researched and amateurishly reported story speaks for itself, and the safety record of the DH8 speaks for itself, and Joe Q. Public will buy the cheapest airline ticket he can find, and will pay just as little attention to the flight attendant when they don't demonstrate the oxygen mask as when they do. And so,

Quoting STLGph (Reply 49):
Boom, there ya go.
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:43 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 49):
It was mentioned it was covered, doesn't matter if it's in the package or a tag out or a break out from the package itself. It's covered, it's there, etc.

I'm sorry, but that's bovine fecal material. There is such a thing as the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law, and while "law" isn't technically involved here, and I'm sure even you know the difference. Some commercials require certain notices overlaid, which they are so as to technically comply, but they're also in an itty-bitty font size, and the notice is on-screen for all of 1.4 nanoseconds, so, so much for the "spirit".

Quoting STLGph (Reply 49):
Fox News is generally a saviour in their reporting.

 spit  (generally)
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
BlueSkys
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:55 am

Send this to FOX news http://aviation-safety.net/database/dblist.php?Type=184


3 fatal accidents in type history. All pilot error...


None of them caused by lack of oxegen mask..
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:01 am

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 60):
Send this to FOX news http://aviation-safety.net/database/dblist.php?Type=184


3 fatal accidents in type history. All pilot error...


None of them caused by lack of oxegen mask..

There was that old clip about "this is the first fully computerized airliner..." showing the 320 crash at Mulhouse. Same story there. All 32x accidents caused by pilot error. But that doesn't make for good newsertainment.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
SkyyMaster
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:09 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 25):
The fact exists that there are not any oxygen masks on the plane for the passengers. If it's not that big of a concern, the FAA and the airline should have stepped up to the plate and commented on this more thoroughly than what they did.
Lay your blame with them.

Easier said than done. The media chooses what they print or televise. Do we know that they did not talk to these people and get these facts, and "conveniently" choose to leave them out to better sensationalize their story? Which news teaser will grab the viewers, thus increasing the ratings: "Frontier to buy new airplane" or "Frontier's new airplane is unsafe". Unless the FAA chooses to hold a press conference to refute this, there is no "stepping up to the plate". The media says what it wants, and the gullible public laps it up.
 
PC12Fan
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:16 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 49):
That's what's incorrect. Some do, a lot don't.

No, you are wrong. News beat package interviews take 5 minutes.

Uh huh, I did escort duties at STL for a news crew and it took 7 minutes alone for a guy to do ONE LINE because he was such a pompous arrogant perfectionist. The whole piece was a two minute bit when it aired. 5 minutes my a$$.

Quoting Onaclearday (Reply 58):

Welcome to my RU list.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 49):
Fox News is generally a saviour in their reporting.

Oh my freaking Gawd, you know you said that out loud, right?
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
Amazonphil
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:29 am

Quoting Joeljack (Reply 1):
The only problem I see would be a worst-case scenario: what if you are flying over the rockies, and lost pressure? You'd have to do an emergency descent to 10,000', however, the terrain (and the MEA's an the minimum vectoring altitude ) in Colorado might not allow for that...

In CO the lowest MEA I ever saw crossing the Front Range..which where the DH8"s would cross going/coming into DIA is around 12,500ft. I have mucho hours flying IFR there from KAPA and always had to use at least 12,500ft as the minimum, minimum to ascend and descend to altitude which made it hard sometimes, without an thermo propelling me upward, had to circle climb sometimes. On descents....a mad dive down to the class B airspace entering the area once control would allow descent from MEA.

Incidently...US Express uses DH8's here at Phoenix Sky Harbor airport.

Felipe
If it ain't Boeing, I ain't goeing!
 
National757
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:38 am

Quoting Amazonphil (Reply 64):

Incidently...US Express uses DH8's here at Phoenix Sky Harbor airport

Shhh...someone might alert the news media in Phoenix and say there are possible safety concerns flying US Airways.  Smile
 
Amazonphil
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:44 am

Quoting National757 (Reply 65):
Shhh...someone might alert the news media in Phoenix and say there are possible safety concerns flying US Airways.

I know, but at least the MEA issue wouldn't be a problem...the "highest" peak around the immediate KPHX arrvl/dept area is Crown King peak which tops out at a grand total of 7400ft or so. They would have to find another supposed problem with the DH8"s like overheating because of the heat in summer. Big grin
If it ain't Boeing, I ain't goeing!
 
Amazonphil
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:50 am

I remember once upon a time flying the DH7's, the 4 engine on CO Express to Telliride,Durange, Aspen...what an incrediably tough ship! I a confident the DH8's are just at tough AND SAFE...(to all you idiot media types out there)..

Felipe
If it ain't Boeing, I ain't goeing!
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:00 am

Quoting Hsw3rd (Reply 52):
Lesson in this? Don't watch FOX, it's too right wing (sorry, couldn't resist)!

Amen to that. I hate FOX News for that Reason. It would just as bad if they were completely left wing. News reporting needs to be objective and FOX News is anything but objective.

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 62):
Easier said than done. The media chooses what they print or televise.

Ive thought about that too. I dont know if FOX did leave anything out or not, we wont ever know. Either way, the story is blown way out of proportion.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 49):
Of course what's ultimately funny about all of this is that for many of you, Fox News is generally a saviour in their reporting.

Are you high?
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:06 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 49):
Of course what's ultimately funny about all of this is that for many of you, Fox News is generally a saviour in their reporting.



Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 63):
Oh my freaking Gawd, you know you said that out loud, right?



Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 69):
Are you high?

Just believing their own PR methinks...  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
platinumfoota
Posts: 213
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:26 am

They mentioned that UA hadnt called them back, maybe they outsourced their comments too Big grin
Never forget United 93
 
socalfive
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2001 5:37 am

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:30 am

Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 6):
Faux News at it again

They should be considered entertainment and not news.

Exactly right, however, not just them, ALL NEWS should be considered entertainment, not news.
 
SUPRAZACHAIR
Posts: 474
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 3:27 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:56 am

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 17):
Does anyone know if QX has masks on it's Q400s?

They are not as they're only certified to FL250. I believe the DHC-8-400 is available certified to FL270 with oxygen masks installed.
 
stlgph
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:31 am

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 63):
Uh huh, I did escort duties at STL for a news crew and it took 7 minutes alone for a guy to do ONE LINE because he was such a pompous arrogant perfectionist. The whole piece was a two minute bit when it aired. 5 minutes my a$$.

Are you talking about the interviewer or the reporter? When the reporter cuts their package, yes, they'll probably spend a few minutes working on one line especially if the audio is overdriven or the camera isn't white balancing ... same for the interview ... the audio is overdriven or it isn't white balancing, then yes, that must be corrected during the interview. And also, you can't use sound from your interview subject if the SOTs are butted together.

But interviews for beat packages are always done in in the quick and dirty method. Get it in, lights, camera, go, get out of there, get in the edit bay asap.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 59):
Some commercials require certain notices overlaid, which they are so as to technically comply, but they're also in an itty-bitty font size, and the notice is on-screen for all of 1.4 nanoseconds, so, so much for the "spirit".

But we're not talking about font size. We're speaking of spoken attribution. Which was covered.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 57):
Maybe they did. We will never know, because we have no idea what they left on the cutting room floor (old terminology).

I can sit here and tell you without even seeing the whole thing that the Frontier guy was just a crappy interview altogether and that's 12 years of production experience right there.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 56):
If I understand you correctly, I didnt decide this. The F.A.A. decided this under Title 14 CFR 25 & 29 (Maybe 23??). Its outlined in there, I believe

Good. And I think our Fox reporter said the FAA decide this, too. So what's the problem?

Quoting Onaclearday (Reply 58):
In the end, a poorly researched and amateurishly reported story speaks for itself, and the safety record of the DH8 speaks for itself,

Poor researched? The reporter went up and found that flying without oxygen masks is ok by the F-A-A. That's going a lot farther than Joe Q. Public would have done if they would have just heard about it from their friend at the local bridge game.

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 62):
The media chooses what they print or televise

Topic wise, but when it comes to story presentation ... real people speak for real people. And as I addressed earlier, and in reply 12, this story hit on all of those elements.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 68):
Quoting STLGph (Reply 49):
Of course what's ultimately funny about all of this is that for many of you, Fox News is generally a saviour in their reporting.

Are you high?

No, I just pay attention to what is said here.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
BlueSkys
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:32 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 68):
Amen to that. I hate FOX News for that Reason. It would just as bad if they were completely left wing. News reporting needs to be objective and FOX News is anything but objective.

Bi Partisan, Bull crap is bull crap! Nice to see some normal thinking people on this thread.
 
USAirways737
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:03 pm

So I just received a response from my 2 cents I sent to FOX Colorado and am surprised at how fast I got a response. Just to see if they are sending out pre-packaged responses, did anyone else receive anything similar to this when they contacted them?



"We appreciate your comments about our story regarding Frontier’s new aircraft, the Q400. Our reporting reflected the concerns of some highly experienced members of the aviation industry. Our story did not take issue with the safety record of the plane or of the airline but simply brought to light the undisputed fact that it does not have a supplemental passenger oxygen system.

We included in our story, that the FAA does not require these systems on regional turboprop aircraft. We also aired comments from Frontier’s chosen spokesman, their chief pilot, who said he feels confident in the safety of the aircraft without the supplemental system. . Those who raised concerns said the lack of this system in an emergency situation during Mountain flying could potentially pose a problem for Q400 pilots.

Thank you again for taking the time to share your concerns about our reporting---it is not our job to pass judgment on the safety of an aircraft or anything else but rather offer both sides of the story and allow the viewer to decide.

Respectfully yours,
Leland Vittert

Leland Vittert
Anchor/Reporter
Fox 31-KDVR
100 E Speer Blvd
Denver, CO 80203

(303) 566-7548
(303) 553-0238 Pager
If no answer, please call the assignment desk:
(303) 566-7600
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:12 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 73):
So what's the problem?

They questioned in their story that the Q400 was maybe unsafe. This should have never aired in the first place OR they could have titled it a bit differently instead of scaring pax. If the FAR's say the plane is safe, then it shouldn't be questioned, IMO.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
BlueSkys
Posts: 286
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:18 pm

Quoting USAirways737 (Reply 75):
it is not our job to pass judgment on the safety of an aircraft or anything else but rather offer both sides of the story and allow the viewer to decide.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Yeah! OK!!!!


Lol, thanks for the inside scoop USairways!
 
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mariner
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:24 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 73):
I can sit here and tell you without even seeing the whole thing that the Frontier guy was just a crappy interview altogether and that's 12 years of production experience right there.

He may be. The point is, we only know what Fox chose to show, just as you choose to ignore that the item starts with a bias.

And you've got 12? I've got 40.  Smile

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:37 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 73):
But we're not talking about font size. We're speaking of spoken attribution. Which was covered.

I don't know how you maintain your balance with all that spin... Of course we weren't talking about fonts being mention in their story--it was given as another example of letter vs. spirit, but then again, that's context, and probably why it's such a foreign concept for you.

Quoting USAirways737 (Reply 75):
Leland Vittert
Anchor/Reporter
Fox 31-KDVR[/quote....said:

[quote=USAirways737,reply=75]"We appreciate your comments about our story regarding Frontier's new aircraft, the Q400. Our reporting reflected the concerns of some highly experienced members of the aviation industry. Our story did not take issue with the safety record of the plane or of the airline but simply brought to light the undisputed fact that it does not have a supplemental passenger oxygen system.

We included in our story, that the FAA does not require these systems on regional turboprop aircraft. We also aired comments from Frontier's chosen spokesman, their chief pilot, who said he feels confident in the safety of the aircraft without the supplemental system. . Those who raised concerns said the lack of this system in an emergency situation during Mountain flying could potentially pose a problem for Q400 pilots.

I haven't seen that much crap since I drove past that cattle feedlot west of AMA on I-40 last summer...

"possible SAFETY CONCERNS THE NEXT TIME YOU FLY." The aircraft "lacks a safety feature found in most commercial airliners: oxygen masks." The Q400 is not comparable to "most commercial airliners", since the latter do operate above FL250, and are thus required by FARs to have a passenger oxygen system, whereas the Q400 is not designed for that flight regime--it's an apples and oranges comparison.

Of course, had they said "A new plane recently purchased by Frontier Airlines lacks a safety feature found in most commercial jet airliners, but it is not required by federal regulations due to the lower altitudes that this Q400 turboprop flies", i.e. given equal emphasis that it wasn't required right off the bat, it would have retained factual accuracy while also providing the proper context that the aircraft have differences with respect to their intended use. It takes far less time for a Q400 to get down from FL250 to 10,000-14,000 feet than it does for a jet airliner to get from FL430 down to 10,000-14,000, and that's the rationale behind the regs that don't require them on the Q400. Of course, mentioning any of that would have deprived themselves of a "You're all going to die!" kind of story that folks would just have to tune in for... As I said before, that's showbiz! It sure ain't news.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Amazonphil
Posts: 544
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 12:37 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:46 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 79):
It takes far less time for a Q400 to get down from FL250 to 10,000-14,000 feet than it does for a jet airliner to get from FL430 down to 10,000-14,000, and that's the rationale behind the regs that don't require them on the Q400.

Nice post OPNLguy. There are other aircraft that have similar criteria.. Cessna's P210 is one that crosses my mind. While the 'aircraft' is capable of an absolute ceiling of FL300 ft or so, but the limitation to it's service ceiling is only FL230ft so it could get to breathable alittudes below FL180 quickly if the pressurization system were to fail. I have some time in such an aircraft and is a very nice aircraft.

Regards,
Felipe

Edit PS- Not sure if the P210 has supplemental O2 though

[Edited 2007-08-24 05:50:46]
If it ain't Boeing, I ain't goeing!
 
USAirways737
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:53 pm

Here is a quick recap of my reply to the oh-so-reputable-reporter Leland Vittert:

I guess my point is best illustrated by a quote taken right from you: "It doesn't need passenger oxygen masks" So why make a story centering around the lack of passenger oxygen masks? Your decision to make a sensational story about a Q400 lacking passenger oxygen masks would be no different than a story centering around a Ford Explorer lacking life preservers. Sure you could have Ford executives say you don't need them and another person saying all Explorers should come standard with life preservers thereby fulfilling your "Fair and Balanced" requirement; but doing so would not make your story any less ridiculous. Sensationalism might get you moved from WFTV to FOX31 but it will not get you much further than that. Real journalism puts the public's best interest first, not your career goals.

Erik in MSP
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:57 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 79):
but it is not required by federal regulations due to the lower altitudes that this Q400 turboprop flies"

   In additon to that, some great light reading would be good for a select few:

Title 14 CFR 21 "Certification procedures for products and parts."

AND

Title 14 CFR 23 "Airworthiness Standards: Normal, Utility acrobatic and commuter category airplanes.

AND

TItle 14 CFR 25 "Airworthiness Standards: Transport Category airplanes".

Any aircraft that has a Airworthiness Certificate from the F.A.A. is a certified aircraft and a safe aircraft until suspended or revoked for obvious reasons. (IE: failure to maintain said aircraft, non compliance, safety issues, etc etc...)

[Edited 2007-08-24 06:00:00]
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
FATFlyer
Posts: 4954
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:08 pm

Wait. A Colorado news story about airlines without a Mike Boyd quote? Now there's a real sign they didn't do good research.  Smile
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
StuckInCA
Posts: 1657
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:10 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 49):
News beat package interviews take 5 minutes

All of them? Five minutes? Maybe yours do.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 53):
Wow, I can't help but wonder if someone at Fox Colorado isn't a UA shareholder

I had the same thought.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 57):
The opening words of this report are: "Possible safety concerns..." - a statement, not a question. This is editorializing, an immediate subjective slant - a decision - before the reporting has begun

Wise words. (after a long time coming, added to my RU list... as if it matters)

Quoting Platinumfoota (Reply 70):
They mentioned that UA hadnt called them back, maybe they outsourced their comments too

LOL

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 40):

(also added to my RU list for making me laugh after several years of informed and respectful posting)
 
Amazonphil
Posts: 544
Joined: Tue Oct 28, 2003 12:37 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:11 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 79):
It takes far less time for a Q400 to get down from FL250 to 10,000-14,000 feet than it does for a jet airliner to get from FL430 down to 10,000-14,000, and that's the rationale behind the regs that don't require them on the Q400.

I would imagine that many quick descents were performed in the testing stages of the Q400(and DH8's) to see how quickly the aircraft to could get to breathable altitudes BEFORE the FAA decided that the neccessity of supplying supplemental O2 was not critical to the safe operation of the aircraft.

Felipe
If it ain't Boeing, I ain't goeing!
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:16 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 84):
(also added to my RU list for making me laugh after several years of informed and respectful posting)

Thanks for the kind words..

I just thought of another possible reason they aired this crap--Fox is just plain desperate for ratings. That "Anchorwoman" reality series they've been hyping has just been canceled after one low-rated airing. That OJ special on his book never (thankfully) aired. They're scraping the bottom of the crap barrel, flinging it, and hoping that something sticks...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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mariner
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:25 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 84):
added to my RU list... as if it matters)

Good thoughts always matter. Cheers and thanks.

maariner
aeternum nauta
 
warszawa
Posts: 549
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:27 pm

Fox news now reporting fellow new hire amateur, seen below, reported this significant safety flaw:

Flying a plane is no diff. from riding a bicycle. Its just a lot harder to put baseball cards in the spokes. -'Airplane'
 
tcfc424
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:41 pm

Somebody mentioned that according to Part 121, above 10K feet, one pilot must be on O2...does this mean that every commercial flight has a pilot sucking pure O2? Just looking for clarification, because I really don't know...I thought that was just in the case of a depressurization? Maybe I missed something...feel free to flame!

Mike S. in AUS
 
3201
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:41 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 33):

Except they didn't.

How do you know, were you there? Did you talk to someone at the station or Frontier?

Quoting STLGph (Reply 33):

That's incorrect. Interviews for a 50 second package don't take an hour. Five minutes, max.

I guess you and your NewsOne team are more efficient (or less thorough) than the people I've run into.
7 hours aint long-haul
 
Amazonphil
Posts: 544
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:44 pm

Quoting TCFC424 (Reply 89):
Somebody mentioned that according to Part 121, above 10K feet, one pilot must be on O2...

No, not 10K but I believe it is FL180...but somebody correct me if not correct.

Felipe
If it ain't Boeing, I ain't goeing!
 
OPNLguy
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:07 pm

Quoting TCFC424 (Reply 89):
Somebody mentioned that according to Part 121, above 10K feet, one pilot must be on O2...does this mean that every commercial flight has a pilot sucking pure O2? Just looking for clarification, because I really don't know...I thought that was just in the case of a depressurization? Maybe I missed something...feel free to flame!

The exact FAR escapes me at the moment, but if operating above FL250 -and- one pilot leaves the flight deck, the remaining pilot must don their oxygen mask until the other pilot returns.

In normal ops, both pilots do not otherwise wear their masks, but if the pressurization were to fail, they're required by FAR to be able to get their quick-don masks on within 5 seconds. That's why those masks are dangling immediately behind each pilot seat, i.e. they don't have to be removed from storage compartments, etc., just grab them and put them on.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:18 pm

I'm happy to edit their smug, lame response if someone wishes to send it on to them.

We appreciate your comments about our story regarding Frontier's new aircraft, the Q400.

My pleasure. Really.

Our reporting reflected the concerns of some highly experienced members of the aviation industry.

None of whom had the balls to appear on camera, nor did you quote them, cite them, mention their AFFILIATION or potential bias, nor did you explain exactly what their concern was. Instead, you did a hit with a clueless "regular Joe" lady who said something irrelevant about a "security blanket".

Our story did not take issue with the safety record of the plane or of the airline

Well, sure it did. It used the word "safe" in the promos, and by deeming the absence of supp 02 to be newsworthy, you strongly imply that the airline is doing something that could harm its passengers.

but simply brought to light the undisputed fact that it does not have a supplemental passenger oxygen system.

Ignoring, of course, the key contextual fact that the aircraft DOESN'T NEED ONE.

We included in our story, that the FAA does not require these systems on regional turboprop aircraft.

Without deeming this dispositive, of course, as to the safety issue. Indeed, the tease relates to "safety concerns", and the viewer is left to wonder why, if the thing isn't required by the regulators, there is any story at all; the only conclusion left is that it SHOULD BE a concern. Of course, no evidence is offered as to why it should be.

We also aired comments from Frontier's chosen spokesman, their chief pilot, who said he feels confident in the safety of the aircraft without the supplemental system.

Actually, he just said it was "safe" generally, and wasn't apparently asked the question directly about supplemental 02, or you chose not to give his actual explanation on the actual issue raised in the story.

Those who raised concerns said the lack of this system in an emergency situation during Mountain flying could potentially pose a problem for Q400 pilots.

And again, we have no clue how much weight to give these concerns since you didn't tell us anything about the nameless, faceless people raising these "concerns". What axes do they have to grind? Is there some reason that you couldn't have held the story for a SINGLE DAY to wait for United's response on the issue? The aircraft won't be in service for TWO MONTHS. Calling them at 4pm for "comment" is a typical cheesy ambush reporter move.

Thank you again for taking the time to share your concerns about our reporting---it is not our job to pass judgment on the safety of an aircraft or anything else but rather offer both sides of the story and allow the viewer to decide.

If you were trying to offer "both sides", you totally failed to provide context, and thus the story is worthless to the average viewer. While the story may technically have been "balanced", it was not informative. And to say that there was no slant to the story is to defy belief.

On the other hand, you guys work for a station in the network that just aired and then cancelled "Anchorwoman". 'Nuff said.

Edit: One other thought. This highlights the problem with doing stories in any area where you are relying solely on sources consulted "on background not for attribution". Or worse yet, a single such source. Unless and until you find someone willing to make the allegation on camera and explain and defend their position, you're really not doing anyone any favors. That someone like Scary Mary wasn't found to state the concern on-camera really shows how tissue-thin this "story" really is. I also noted above that some of my points were already covered by OPNLGuy and others. But if someone wants to email my thoughts to the geniuses at this station, feel free.
]

[Edited 2007-08-24 07:31:56]
 
Amazonphil
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:20 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 92):
That's why those masks are dangling immediately behind each pilot seat, i.e. they don't have to be removed from storage compartments, etc., just grab them and put them on.

Or to the front and side of each seat...kind of like in the 11:00 position for the CAP and 1:00 position for the F/O CO's. They are an octopus type quick donning masks that they can put on is the 5 seconds required. Do they ever grip you face! They work well. And installing the mask at FL250 is correct if one pilot leaves the flight deck per the regs.. I looked it up.

Regards,
Felipe
If it ain't Boeing, I ain't goeing!
 
mexicana767
Posts: 20
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RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:22 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 9):
They are about to get inundated with e-mails from A.net members!

Just did!!!!

It's a shame that the news has a tendancy of doing stuff like this.
"Never, Never, Never Quit" -Winston Churchill
 
OPNLguy
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Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:24 pm

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 93):
I'm happy to edit their smug, lame response if someone wishes to send it on to them.

Great letter, just send it as is...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
ABQ747
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Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:22 am

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:24 pm

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 86):
Fox is just plain desperate for ratings

Aren't all news stations desperate for ratings? ABQ's local ABC affiliate does the same sensationalized reporting.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:52 pm

Quoting ABQ747 (Reply 97):
Aren't all news stations desperate for ratings? ABQ's local ABC affiliate does the same sensationalized reporting.

You're right, of course. Funny thing is we're not even in a "sweeps" period--imagine how much worse it'd be then..  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Mach3
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:56 pm

RE: Denver Media - Frontier's DH8 Is Unsafe

Fri Aug 24, 2007 3:12 pm

Never take anything to heart that comes out of the mouth's of Denver Media. Remember Paula Woodward kiss the Ramse'y tush's in her interview about the death od their daughter. Bowed and kissed Phil Anshute's feet while his hand picked CEO at Qwest bleed the company dry! Years ago when CO 1713 crashed Ch. 7 Dave Minshall said it was a 747. None had operated into Stapleton for over 2 yrs. Its all about ratings in Denver! Even the Newspapers here are Rags.
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