A friend in CCS just told me that S3 loads on their weekly CCS-TFN has been 100% most of the year and specially in the summer time. Lack of competition is making things really easy for them.
I remember IB used to have for many years a weekly stopover at TFN or TFS on their CCS-MAD (2 or 3x weekly during the summer), but they dropped it several years ago.
I know this a huge VFR only route that probably doesn't fit into IB current business model of targeting premium pax, but as long as you are linking LATAM and Spain, VFR has to be an important piece of your market.
Having said that, I wonder why IB haven't given a shot again at this one, a lot of people hate to fly S3 but they do it because backtracking through MAD is totally insane. And IB will have the advantage of continuing to MAD instead of terminating at TFN like S3 does.
If not IB, why UX doesn't give a shot as part of their daily CCS-MAD? they're more focused on VFR and leisure so might be a better fit.
A similar example is S3 having a weekly CCS-FNC, although in this case TP have stayed at FNC as once a week they stopover at FNC on thier CCS-LIS.
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- acelanzarote
- Posts: 459
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RE: Lack Of Competition On TFN-CCS?
Going slightly off the subject you have to wonder why there is no direct service to the canaries
from the USA, surly Binter or Islas could feed a US service from LPA or TFN to the USA
perhaps MIA etc? Question is who would operate it???
from the USA, surly Binter or Islas could feed a US service from LPA or TFN to the USA
perhaps MIA etc? Question is who would operate it???
RE: Lack Of Competition On TFN-CCS?
Well S3 had been making a lot of money on this route. A part of my family lives in TFN and everytime they want to go there they make the reservation with a lot of months before the flight because S3 is always full on the route and as UPPERDECKFAN said going through MAD is a horrible experience. I remember IB going to TFS too...but i never knew why do they left the route. S3 has a monopoly on the route and they are selling the tickets with very high prices. Now UX made a very smart move opening this summer a stopover in SCQ on their CCS-MAD route. There is also a huge Galician community in the country and SCQ is a very smart point (I include myself on that group because the other part of my family is from Santiago). So from my point of view UX should consider the CCS-TFN/TFS seriously.
It was a rumor months ago that S3 was planing a MIA-TFN...but it was only a rumor.
Saludos desde BCN!
Tavo
| Quoting Acelanzarote (Reply 1): |
It was a rumor months ago that S3 was planing a MIA-TFN...but it was only a rumor.
Saludos desde BCN!
Tavo
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- upperdeckfan
- Posts: 1088
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RE: Lack Of Competition On TFN-CCS?
| Quoting Acelanzarote (Reply 1): |
I see it the other way around,
If one day the canaries starts marketing themselves in the US east coast, there is a good chance americans can make a US-TFS non-stop work, Canary Island should be able to become a competitor for some caribean destinations. There are places like AUA, CUR, POS that are almost as far from IAD, JFK, BOS than TFN.
One thing to consider is that the current EUR-USD rate makes the Caribean much cheapier for tourists looking for beaches, but that might change in the future.
My belief is that Canaries market by itself can't sustain a non-stop US service, nobody would go to TFN or LPA from the main continent to connect to US.
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- upperdeckfan
- Posts: 1088
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RE: Lack Of Competition On TFN-CCS?
| Quoting Cybergus (Reply 2): Now UX made a very smart move opening this summer a stopover in SCQ on their CCS-MAD route |
Great!! didn't know that, is it weekly?
| Quoting Cybergus (Reply 2): It was a rumor months ago that S3 was planing a MIA-TFN...but it was only a rumor. |
Are you sure S3 would have rights to open such a route?
RE: Lack Of Competition On TFN-CCS?
| Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 4): Great!! didn't know that, is it weekly? |
Yes once a week (Don't remember the exact day) is CCS-SCQ-MAD but only for this summer season.
| Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 4): Are you sure S3 would have rights to open such a route? |
No as i said it was only a wacky rumor.
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- LatinPlane
- Posts: 2650
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RE: Lack Of Competition On TFN-CCS?
The CCS - TNF is one of S3's most profitable routes for various reasons. The route has no competition as previously stated, and the number of Venezuelan immigrants as well as other South Americans (Most notably Colombians and Ecuadorians) has grown extensively throughout the Canary Islands.
During the Summer S3 usually doubles its supply of seats on the CCS-TNF route to cope with the extra demand by adding a supplementing flight on Fridays, returning to CCS on Saturdays. However, this year S3 couldn't secure the wet-lease of a second 767. The addition of the Funchal route also meant that S3 had to sacrifice the CCS-TNF market as it sends its single 767 to compete with TAP twice weekly schedule on the same route.
Going forward, S3 is trying to negotiate another 767 so that the CCS-TNF goes 2x year round. The 767 would also increase its weekly offerings to Madrid and add new European destinations rumored to be in Italy. S3 is setting its eyes on Italy to cater to the Italian-Venezuelan community. Alitalia's perceived shut down in the near future would leave a big gap that S3 can cease for itself.
In my opinion, S3 made a bad decision of starting service to FNC where it heavily puts up a fight with TAP. S3 should have instead focused its energy on its well-established Tenerife Norte route where there is a guaranteed return on investment. As I mentioned, the Venezuelan community in the Canaries has grown in large part to the political situation in Venezuela that forces many of its citizens to migrate and that now need to travel home to visit friends/family. At the same time, the Ecuadorian and Colombian community is even larger in the Canaries and these feed on S3s routes to Quito and Guayaquil.
LatinPlane
During the Summer S3 usually doubles its supply of seats on the CCS-TNF route to cope with the extra demand by adding a supplementing flight on Fridays, returning to CCS on Saturdays. However, this year S3 couldn't secure the wet-lease of a second 767. The addition of the Funchal route also meant that S3 had to sacrifice the CCS-TNF market as it sends its single 767 to compete with TAP twice weekly schedule on the same route.
Going forward, S3 is trying to negotiate another 767 so that the CCS-TNF goes 2x year round. The 767 would also increase its weekly offerings to Madrid and add new European destinations rumored to be in Italy. S3 is setting its eyes on Italy to cater to the Italian-Venezuelan community. Alitalia's perceived shut down in the near future would leave a big gap that S3 can cease for itself.
In my opinion, S3 made a bad decision of starting service to FNC where it heavily puts up a fight with TAP. S3 should have instead focused its energy on its well-established Tenerife Norte route where there is a guaranteed return on investment. As I mentioned, the Venezuelan community in the Canaries has grown in large part to the political situation in Venezuela that forces many of its citizens to migrate and that now need to travel home to visit friends/family. At the same time, the Ecuadorian and Colombian community is even larger in the Canaries and these feed on S3s routes to Quito and Guayaquil.
LatinPlane-
- Humberside
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RE: Lack Of Competition On TFN-CCS?
Would Air Comet ever consider CCS-TFN? (probably as part of a MAD-TFN-CCS service)
If they start having too many one stop flights (they already have the one that stops in SCQ), this might be off putting for some CCD-MAD passengers when there are other non-stop alternatives. And I guess AEA would put the MAD-CCS market before the TFN-CCS market
Perhaps the best thing for AEA to do if they wanted to serve TFN-CCS would be to keep MAD-CCS 6xWeek, MAD-SCQ-CCS 1xWeek and then do a twice weekly MAD-TFN-CCS - this would enable them to keep 6xWeek MAD-CCS non stop, increase capacity between MAD and CCS plus serve the TFN-CCS market
Also is there any demand from LPA to CCS?
| Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Thread starter): If not IB, why UX doesn't give a shot as part of their daily CCS-MAD? |
If they start having too many one stop flights (they already have the one that stops in SCQ), this might be off putting for some CCD-MAD passengers when there are other non-stop alternatives. And I guess AEA would put the MAD-CCS market before the TFN-CCS market
Perhaps the best thing for AEA to do if they wanted to serve TFN-CCS would be to keep MAD-CCS 6xWeek, MAD-SCQ-CCS 1xWeek and then do a twice weekly MAD-TFN-CCS - this would enable them to keep 6xWeek MAD-CCS non stop, increase capacity between MAD and CCS plus serve the TFN-CCS market
Also is there any demand from LPA to CCS?
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- upperdeckfan
- Posts: 1088
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RE: Lack Of Competition On TFN-CCS?
| Quoting Latinplane (Reply 6): The CCS - TNF is one of S3's most profitable routes for various reasons. The route has no competition as previously stated, and the number of Venezuelan immigrants as well as other South Americans (Most notably Colombians and Ecuadorians) has grown extensively throughout the Canary Islands. |
You're right, inmigration have grown a lot from LATAM to Spain as a whole, although Venezuela-Canary Island links have existed since the 50's when thousands of canaries established themselves in Venezuela after Spain civil war. This trend continued until the 70's when Venezuela started to get worse and Spain to get better so inmigration went the other way as you described.
Based on the above IB have been flying CCS-TFN or CCS-LPA mostly on DC10's since the 70's. VIASA also served LPA during the 70's and early 80's on DC10's.
| Quoting Humberside (Reply 7): Perhaps the best thing for AEA to do if they wanted to serve TFN-CCS would be to keep MAD-CCS 6xWeek, MAD-SCQ-CCS 1xWeek and then do a twice weekly MAD-TFN-CCS - this would enable them to keep 6xWeek MAD-CCS non stop, increase capacity between MAD and CCS plus serve the TFN-CCS market |
IIRC, VIASA used to do a weekly CCS-TFN-SCQ in the early to mid 80's, thus being able to keep CCS-MAD 6xweekly.
RE: Lack Of Competition On TFN-CCS?
Based on all that have been posted out above, S3 has created a profitable scenario in the leisure market CCS-TFN. This model figures as both higher loads and yields which means that S3 is making money on such route.
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In my opinion, IB would not include any stop on the way to MAD due to presence of other European carriers connecting CCS with Europe: AF, LH, AZ. I would add UX and TP even though they do not work as daily-nonstop at all times.
AZ, AF, LH and IB would keep their current model transferred passengers to other cities, mainly in Europe. One stop on the way to Europe will break this behavior.
It also should be noted that IB flies to Latin America as nonstop utilizing their A340 for their dedicated long-hauls. Any stopover does not follow this pattern.
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Back on the 70´s when IB operated CCS-Canaries-MAD, probably there was a lack of European competitors linking Venezuela with Europe, but nowadays we have a different history...
Regards.
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| Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Thread starter): I remember IB used to have for many years a weekly stopover at TFN or TFS on their CCS-MAD (2 or 3x weekly during the summer), |
| Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Thread starter): I wonder why IB haven't given a shot again at this one, a lot of people hate to fly S3 but they do it because backtracking through MAD is totally insane |
In my opinion, IB would not include any stop on the way to MAD due to presence of other European carriers connecting CCS with Europe: AF, LH, AZ. I would add UX and TP even though they do not work as daily-nonstop at all times.
AZ, AF, LH and IB would keep their current model transferred passengers to other cities, mainly in Europe. One stop on the way to Europe will break this behavior.
It also should be noted that IB flies to Latin America as nonstop utilizing their A340 for their dedicated long-hauls. Any stopover does not follow this pattern.
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| Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 8): Based on the above IB have been flying CCS-TFN or CCS-LPA mostly on DC10's since the 70's |
| Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Thread starter): I remember IB used to have for many years a weekly stopover at TFN or TFS on their CCS-MAD (2 or 3x weekly during the summer), but they dropped it several years ago. |
Back on the 70´s when IB operated CCS-Canaries-MAD, probably there was a lack of European competitors linking Venezuela with Europe, but nowadays we have a different history...
Regards.
RE: Lack Of Competition On TFN-CCS?
| Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 8): IRC, VIASA used to do a weekly CCS-TFN-SCQ in the early to mid 80's, thus being able to keep CCS-MAD 6xweekly. |
At the height of VIASA network (between 1979 and 1984), services to Madrid were daily in the summer with DC-10 and twice a week to the Canary Islands. For many years to Las Palmas and, when Reina Sofia was opened in late 79, then services were switched there. The reason being that there are, numerically, more immigrants in Venzuela from Tenerife province than from Las Palmas province. Indeed, the very owners of Santa Barbara, for instance, come from Tenerife.
Services to Santiago de Compostela were always twice weekly in the summer usually a CCS-SCQ-LIS-CCS or the other way round. Even during the low season, Spain would get at least a daily flight from Venezuela by VIASA (4 to Madrid, 2 to TFS and 1 to SCQ).
Greetings from Cancún !
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- upperdeckfan
- Posts: 1088
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RE: Lack Of Competition On TFN-CCS?
| Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 9): Back on the 70´s when IB operated CCS-Canaries-MAD, probably there was a lack of European competitors linking Venezuela with Europe, but nowadays we have a different history... |
Not true, CCS has been served by AF, BA, KL since the 60's and IB served CCS-TFN 'til the late 90's.
RE: Lack Of Competition On TFN-CCS?
| Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 11): Not true, CCS has been served by AF, BA, KL since the 60's and IB served CCS-TFN 'til the late 90's. |
Did they operate nonstop-daily?
Did any codeshare agreement with other air partners apply in those days?
My point is that a different scenario is currently happen and IB would not resume any stop in Canary Islands on the way CCS-MAD.
I agree the market between CCS and Canary Islands may be attended by means of another carriers beside S3 as it has been posted out before.
Regards.
RE: Lack Of Competition On TFN-CCS?
| Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 12): Did they operate nonstop-daily? Did any codeshare agreement with other air partners apply in those days? |
If you are talking about the 60s, let me tell you then that KLM, VIASA and IBERIA had a Pool agreement on Mid-Atlantic routes with full 5th Freedom traffic rights. The whole business of codeshares and alliances has been an invention of the 80s and 90s.
IBERIA, KLM and VIASA all began jet services between Venezuela and Spain (yes, KLM had traffic rights between CCS and MAD) in 1961 and that agreement remained in force till 1974 when the Venezuelan government abrogated it and suspended the 5th Freedom Rights the European airlines enjoyed then.
The Canary Islands were served at least 2 weekly all through the year with Venezuela (Las Palmas Gando in those days) and with up to 3 weekly flights during the summer. An IBERIA classic route was a Madrid-Las Palmas-San Juan-Caracas-Bogota-Lima. VIASA would run a Caracas-Las Palmas-Lisboa-Madrid with full traffic rights between Spain and Portugal but not between Las Palmas and Madrid, obviously.
To answer your direct question, threre has never been a daily non-stop or direct service between Venezuela and the Canary Islands. At most it has been 4 times a week.
Why IBERIA ditched the route is unexplainable to me. True, in the days when VIASA was Venezuelan and not IBERIA-owned, it carried over 60% of the traffic on the route as its service standards (cuisine, polite, professional and dedicated Flight Attendant service, excess baggage allowance, etc., etc.) were far superior to those of IBERIA. Ditto with services to Santiago de Compostela which were actively pro-VIASA even in the official bulletins of the Federation of Galician Centres in Venezuela (a journal distributed among the Galician community in Venezuela).
Hope this answers your question.
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- upperdeckfan
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