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na747
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:41 pm

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:22 pm

Getting a First or Business seat is simply one of the very few perks we get. And it is difficult, if not impossible, to get one as a non-rev/space avail employee. How would you feel if your company didn't provide you with a small perk or benefit knowing that you bust your rear end all day long, day after day?
Getting a Business or First Class seat is almost impossible for a NRSA pax.
I've been on many other airlines who upgraded me without asking and I'm very very appreciative of their gesture. In return, I would try to do the same with other airline employees, but only if I could, of course: accomodated ALL revenue request first, if seats were avail, if enough meals were availiable, if they were properly attired.
Even if I was lucky enough to go upfront, half the times I would not get a choice of meals or simply NOT get a meal because there weren't catered enough for it (in which case if I would have known I would not get a meal I would've gladly bought something at the terminal prior to boarding).

In regards to deadheaders, at my airline (AA) they are always booked in coach.
Revenue paxs are GIVEN the opportunity to purchase a First or Business class seat whether thru regular payment or miles. (Most Elite members are already up there and if they aren't, they will standby for the upgrade).
If at the last minute any seats go unsold, then they are given to deadheaders and NRSA paxs who desire it.

Banning an employee from upgrading to have "full fare Trailer Jane" with her 5 kids upfront on a $89 dollar fare would not only open a can of worms on all flights but definately dilute the product to a deplorable point.
I don't expect to go to a car dealer and get a BMW for the prize of an Aveo. I will pay for what I want, if I want it.

Many of those who disagree about banning employees upfront have not worked for an airline before and are unable to see the other side of the spectrum. Walk in our shoes first and the tune may change.

And you can bet that the airline's Management ALWAYS books Positive Space (confirmed) in F Class, you'll never see them in coach as long as they can help it.

This is a dead thread already. The subject needs to be put to rest and the thread locked.
 
airtran717
Posts: 590
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:37 am

There are arguments on both sides of this...

From someone who worked in the industry:

If any crew member is deadheading, it's considered company business, and therefore positive spaced even if that bumps a paying passenger. By FL's pilot contract, Captains on company business may sit in first class if there is space available. F/O's and cabin crew sit in the main cabin. From my own personal experience as the Lead F/A, Once all possible upgrades have been taken care of and there were seats available, I put ANY crew member up front.

We have policies and protocols in place to see to it any elite or applicable termed fare classes were given the opportunity to upgrade mostly at the gate, but sometimes on board as well. If that leaves seats available upfront, it's the discretion of the crew as to who does and doesn't get a comped upgrade. If weight and balance requires seats be filled up front, we also handle that based on who "appears" to be the kind of clientele we'd like to offer a seat to, IE; properly dressed in some kind of casual or business attire, etc.

I also always offered our uniformed service members upgrades as well. They work hard defending our country so it's just a nice courtesy to extend to them.

Just a few thoughts and insights from a guy who dealt with this every day... The public doesn't always understand or recognize that we actually have or follow policy and procedure and it may appear to be random or unfair. It's not a perfect system, but it does good enough on the average day.
 
airtran717
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting GlobalDude (Reply 34):
If you see uniformed or non-rev pax in business or first class then rest assured that NO person was removed from the seat to accomadate them. All

Not entirely true. See my above post. Deadheaders are on company business and I know for a fact there were times my place onboard was made at the expense of a paying passenger.... usually to reposition the crew or equipment.
 
airtran717
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 8):
Many times first class seating while deadheading is a part of the employees' Union contract.

BINGO!
 
airtran717
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Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:48 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:45 am

Quoting JayDub (Reply 25):
And for the record, no non-rev should ever feel "entitled" to a F or J class seat but, if a seat is open after all upgrades are complete, it's damn nice feeling when you manage to snag one.

Most agreed! I just wanted a seat. I just wanted to be left alone and not have my ear talked off. The best chance of that was in business class.
 
airtran717
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:08 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 23):
specially as there carry on isnt small like a normal passenger can carry....

We have the same requirements as passengers by and large. There are always exceptions though. Most uniform issue luggage is a 22" roll a board and various accessory bags. Same as passengers.
 
billreid
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:14 am

I am very passionate about the value of a seat.

I also remain wanting to see better compensation for all employees. Perhaps another $2,000 pay would go a long way to alot of low level employees in lieu of a percieved benefit.

I could careless if employees are upgraded. I do think that by offering a B/C class seat for nil dilutes the product. If you believe nothing is free then who is paying for the seat? In effect through not paying for the seat the funds must come from somewhere which means the paying passenger will get less for what he pays for.


In the end the best quality product would come from neither upgrading paying passengers or employees. This inturn would drive value of the product which in turn would result in increased revenues and possible more pay for some or all of the employees.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
crjflyer35
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:15 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 15):
is it really so hard compared to other jobs....

You come to PHX and load bags into a bin of a 737 that's been sitting on the ramp for an hour......In the summer. Then we'll talk.
Ok, wait for the RJ to pass, cleared to push tail south Mike, and you're cleared to spin #2 in the push.
 
airtran717
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:20 am

What I seem to be reading is more like complaints and comparisons of non-revving, not deadheading, as the thread title indicates. Big difference folks. Keep the topic based on the thread title... or make a new thread about non-revving and upgrade... of which has been discussed to insanity.

And, right, wrong, or indifferently, the passenger doesn't have to understand or like the policies regarding this particular issue. It is what it is. Do you really think the company would put us up there for free rather than get someone to pay? As it's been stated plenty already, it's company business for the given employee and it's usually contractually required for them to be up there. You don't have to know what that business is or what benefits the employee is entitled to. Chances are they are being transported to replace a crew member or to reposition an airplane somewhere else... all of which is important to the passengers that crew or aircraft affects and really makes a very negligible impact on you, if any. Get over it and move on.

[Edited 2007-08-28 21:27:25]
 
iairallie
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:22 am

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 202):
Not entirely true. See my above post. Deadheaders are on company business and I know for a fact there were times my place onboard was made at the expense of a paying passenger.... usually to reposition the crew or equipment.

Yes but at most companies the passengers are bumped from economy not FC or BC. Most companies only upgrade DH if there is an available seat in BC or FC.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
Kuna
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Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:38 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:32 am

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 197):

Most airlines have no policy banning non-rev travel in uniform. Many do require deadheads to travel in uniform or at least show for the flight in uniform.

Since this has extended past the DH crew member, and the whole employee aspect has arose. I know that, I work in the industry, and I was referring to the employee hint I said what I said. I stated in a previous post (sorry I choose not to sort through the see of posts) that most crew members, if not all travel in uniform to get around the TSA regulations on liquids.
Pinnacle Airlines
 
Falcon84
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:45 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 206):
Perhaps another $2,000 pay would go a long way to alot of low level employees in lieu of a percieved benefit.

Sorry. I'll take my unlimited pass privelages any day. Sounds like a bribe to me. The value of being able to fly free-which, as employees, we're entitled to-doesn't have a price on it.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 206):
I could careless if employees are upgraded.

Uh huh. That's why you're making such a stink about this. You're jealous, you're bitter about it. You're upset because I have a privelage you don't. That's the bottom line. I can just see you now, if you get up in first of International Business/First, trying to find out if there's an employee on board, so you can demand compensation.  rotfl 

Quoting BillReid (Reply 206):
I do think that by offering a B/C class seat for nil dilutes the product.

How? You get the same service whether that seat is empty,. or whether that employee gets the seat! It doesn't dilute it one bit. And the fact that people come back time and time again to fly that way, and pay the money for the service, means they disagree with you.

Quoting BillReid (Reply 206):
If you believe nothing is free then who is paying for the seat?

My hard work and loyalty to the company pays for it, pal.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
dl767captain
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:56 am

Look at what messages user BillReid just sent me...

So Crew is more important?
I guess you forgot your cuts in salary
after 9/11 ant people stopped flying.
It is the pax that pay your salary, you
need to understand that you need me
more than I need you. I can simply
stop flying and survive. Can you
survive if we all stop flying?
You deserve a reward?
Don't you get compensated?

I think you really need to calm down, yes crew is more important in certain ways just as the passengers are important in ways. Yes the passengers pay my salary but who flies you around, i'm sure people (including you) would not ever stop flying and go back to taking trains across the country! So actually you do need me more, yes we need your business but you need us to provide that business. Free flights are not a reward, it is a perk, many many jobs have perks and free flights are one of them for pilots. Why do you even care? If you really think you deserve to fly first class then buy a first class ticket! and you don't need to send messages to me just because you disagree.
 
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na747
Posts: 91
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:09 am

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 208):
And, right, wrong, or indifferently, the passenger doesn't have to understand or like the policies regarding this particular issue. It is what it is. You don't have to know what that business is or what benefits the employee is entitled to. Chances are they are being transported to replace a crew member or to reposition an airplane somewhere else... all of which...really makes a very negligible impact on you, if any. Get over it and move on.

Well said. Thank you.
 
UncleBuck
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:46 am

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 5):
The airline industry is full of entitlement of this sort. Airline employees get reduced or free fares for travel. Free upgrades. Etc. So I ask, why? Why do I pay for the airline employees to fly free?

An engineer still has to pay for software.
Pharmacists still have to pay for medicine.
Chemists still have to pay for medicines.
Engineers still have to pay for software.
Employees at Universities still have to pay for classes.

There is no better "professional advantage" than that in the airline and medical industry in the US. And it is funny, those two fields are the ones in constant trouble it seems.

So I ask why. Why are airline employees entitled to service that the rest of us have to pay for. They are already paid for the job.

And I am sure I will be flamed for this, but seriously. You should be upgrading paying passengers, even if not premier, before you put employees in those seats. After all, the paying passengers are, well PAYING, while the employees are not.

But that is the entitlement mentality of airline employees. Sure, management may make a lot (they do in every industry), but when unions talk of not caring if the airline goes out of business and making demands that continue to make an airline unprofitable. Yeah, I have a problem with the whole thing.

take away crew member flight benefits , eh? well kiss air travel goodbye because I guarantee you no flight attendant will want to put up with the pax if they can't at least see the world for it, and without flight attendants their to save greedy and unappreciative passengers, commerical aviation will end. Hope you enjoy Amtrak, buddy. Who knows, maybe their employees have to pay!

[Edited 2007-08-29 00:56:33]
 
Kuna
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:38 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:09 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 211):

That post there summed everything up, welcome to my respected list.
Pinnacle Airlines
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:15 am

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 103):
And the image an airline customer gets when they are in a full coach cabin while an off-duty airline employee is sitting in first class is a bad one.

Well I suppose if they were wearing a hat or sign that said "non reving employee" then your statement would be correct. Unless the flight attendant says something to me that the other passengers over hear, they have no idea I'm an employee. If you are talking about crew members in uniform deadheading to their next assignment, as stated they are on company business, and it is in their contract that they be given those seats so your beef is with the airline management, not the employee.

Quoting Jhooper (Reply 130):
used to always get a first class seat as a nonrev, way back in the day; now it's the exception rather than the rule.

Ain't that the truth.

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 151):
"Normally they make me sit in the little seat in the cockpit," he was heard to say, "it's nice to be able to sit in a real seat--with how full the flights have been this summer it's rare"

That's true but if it's a 757 or bigger, its a real seat, up front, with a great view.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 153):
Here's a list of my trips this summer, and my wife's, and what class we sat in. (Non-rev trips).

Boy did you get screwed! But then again CLEEWR when is the last time any non rev got first? I'm surprised your son and wife got 1st going to MCO. Lets see how did I fare this summer? Only first I saw was BF EWR-MXP and BF CDG-EWR. All the rest was coach or jumpseat. Did get first on AZ after asking for the jumpseat.

To IP and Bill...what part of after all of the available upgradables are seated in first do employees non reving then get a chance to sit there don't you understand? What part of, if there are no non revs listed those seats will go out empty don't you understand? What part of, its in the contract worked out between the company and the flight crews unions that give them seats in first when they are on company business, deadheading, don't you understand? The pilot or FA is not taking anything that is not theirs by the contract. The company obviously feels that it is in the best interest of the company to have employees that will be flying you from point a to point b well taken care of so they are rested and ready to work.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Falcon84
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:30 am

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 212):

He sent me a couple like that too, but I feel I need to remind you that it is against forum rules to post PM's on here.

But the gist was this: you don't deserve those benefits, because if you're up there, it dilutes the product, and I get screwed if I pay for it.

I think Bill is just bitter that 1. No one hands him an upgrade; 2. That it's a benefit he no longer enjoys, since he's a former airline employee, and 3. Really doesn't think too much of airline workers in general, and doesn't believe that we deserve such a benefit, even though it is OUR company, and we bust our butts to make sure he gets where he wants to go, and that the company makes money.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
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mariner
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:43 am

What an entertaining thread.

I don't understand the problem though. Why is anyone bothered who sits where?

As long as I, as a passenger, am getting what I paid for (or I think I am) then who sits anywhere else in the plane is nothing to do with me.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Falcon84
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:46 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 218):
I don't understand the problem though. Why is anyone bothered who sits where?

As long as I, as a passenger, am getting what I paid for (or I think I am) then who sits anywhere else in the plane is nothing to do with me.

You're right, of course. But some people just have to know what The Joneses are getting, and if it's something they can't have, they bitch. In this case, we're getting hysterical answers from a few, who are jealous that airline employees, as a benfit of their employment, get to fly for free or at a reduced rate. It bothers them, probably, I suspect, because they think we're simply not worth it, doing what we do, busting our butts so they can get to where they want to go. But God help us if there's a rare First/Business seat available, and it's like a federal crime to them.

Again, if I'm flying NRSA, and a F/C seat becomes available for me, I'll take it without apologies. And, if I was told after being seated that an elite member was on board, and he/she should have gotten it, it's rightfully there,s and I'll gladly sit in the back.

With loads the way they are, a First Class seat is rare, and we're often lucky to get on board at all. Why people bitch and moan because once in a freaking blue moon a hard-working employee of an airline gets first, is way beyond my reckoning.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
exFATboy
Posts: 1887
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:15 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:18 pm

Quoting BillReid (Reply 206):
In the end the best quality product would come from neither upgrading paying passengers or employees. This in turn would drive value of the product which in turn would result in increased revenues and possible more pay for some or all of the employees.

If you are including elite FF members in the group of revenue passengers you would not upgrade, there's a problem - you might enhance the value of the First/Business product, but at the same time you would reduce the value of elite status. This would reduce the value of Elite status, which would in turn undermine passenger loyalty. I would probably have given more of my business to B6 and DL and less to CO this year were it not for wanting to maintain my elite status, and almost certainly would not be flying CO this Friday night EWR-BRS - I could have saved a little money by choosing another carrier and driving a little further, or connecting into BRS or Cardiff. Saving a little time was nice, but the combination of the time saved and the miles toward Elite status made CO the clear choice.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 218):
I don't understand the problem though. Why is anyone bothered who sits where?

As long as I, as a passenger, am getting what I paid for (or I think I am) then who sits anywhere else in the plane is nothing to do with me.

Well said! I'm not seeing what the big deal here is.

I could see changing my loyalty to CO if I found out that they were upgrading true non-rev employees flying on leisure (not "Must Ride" or "Positive Space") willy-nilly before Elites, but even then I wouldn't begrudge the employees the perk, I just wouldn't try as hard to give CO my business. CO realizes this and their policies reflect it. If I fly on any other airline, I haven't earned upgrades by being a loyal customer, so who's up front is none of my business - I bought a coach ticket, my butt's in coach, and all is well with the world. If I want First, I can pay for it, use FF miles to buy it, or take the discounted upgrade at check-in if one happens to be offered. Sure, I'd love to get upgrades at random, but there are a lot of things I'd love to have without earning them (vast amounts of money, Jessica Alba, etc.)
 
airtran717
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Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:48 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:28 pm

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 209):
Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 202):
Not entirely true. See my above post. Deadheaders are on company business and I know for a fact there were times my place onboard was made at the expense of a paying passenger.... usually to reposition the crew or equipment.

Yes but at most companies the passengers are bumped from economy not FC or BC. Most companies only upgrade DH if there is an available seat in BC or FC.

I was a flight attendant. I didn't say I was upgraded to BC or FC. There were times, yes. But most of the time they're bumped from main. You would be correct.
 
airtran717
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:48 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:39 pm

The seat manifest and fare class designations are for company use and it doesn't really concern the public, or their opinions. If you want an upgrade, get off your lazy, a.net complaining arses as pay for the upgrade instead of being a cheapskate. You don't know if you can upgrade if you don't ask.

You have either currently employed or ex employed crew on here telling you how this system works and you still have your opinions, which is fine. You are entitled. However, once it's been explained, you all have to keep going on and on and on... based on what knowledge or experience do you base these opinions on anyway? Unless you are an airline employee, the way the airline conducts its internal policies regarding employee benefits is none of the flying public's business. Plain and simple. You pay for your seat, in your fare class. That entitles you to a seat. It doesn't entitle you to a specific seat or the overhead bin directly over your seat. There are 100+ other passengers besides yourselves. Count yourselves lucky you got on at all. Because for every one of you who complain, there are at least 10 who would be grateful just to get on board. Be nice. Be considerate. And mind your own business.... I wouldn't come into your office and be pretentious enough to try and tell you your job. Don't step onboard my aircraft and tell me how to do mine.
 
standby87
Posts: 405
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2001 2:33 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:14 pm

Quoting Theginge (Reply 18):
Benefits for Airline employees are not what they used to be. In the UK the tax is now almost always more than the reduced fare that you pay for European and domestic routes, and also a lot of long haul routes. A commercial fare european return can often be purchased for only £20 more than the discounted staff ticket, and you are not offloadable

So true.
I lost my flight benefits after the Swissair Bankruptcy, but now I don't miss Standby Travel in Europe.

I've learnt to look around, be flexible and generally book months ahead - e.g. Swiss were doing a 90 CHF return incl. taxes ZRH-BCN last year in response to Clickair starting up Loco operations in ZRH. What a bargain!

Only on longhaul routes e.g. ZRH-NRT, do I miss the old ID90 Staff tickets.

What hacks me off is people who've never worked in the industry complaining about staff (Standby) benefits when they are benefiting from the cheapest fares and greatest availability of routes in history!  banghead   banghead 
I can "barely choke back the vomit" as a certain Scottish football manager famously said.

It's a Dilbert quote come true "every day more and more stupid people fly for the first time"...
No wonder I hear "I'm glad to be away from it" or "I started to hate it" more and more from ex-colleagues who have left the Industry. And those are people who had worked for 20+ years at the Airport.
 
Mir
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:02 am

Don't have time to read everything in here at the moment, but did want to get to this (apologies if somebody already did):

Quoting Avianca (Reply 15):
is it really so hard compared to other jobs.... well I am daily 12 to 14 hours in an office.... I am sure any crew doesnt have so much hours to work....

Pilots are on duty for 12 or 14 hours a day too. They may only be flying the plane for eight of those hours, but the other four or six come from layovers in various airports, as well as the time spent preflighting the plane, reviewing the flight plans, and doing other outside-the-cockpit activities that are necessary for the safe operation of the flight. Which, by the way, they don't get paid for. Even if they're on duty for 14 hours, if they fly 8 hours they get paid for 8 hours, meaning that they're giving the company six hours of work for free. I doubt that that is the case with most office jobs.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
airtran717
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:48 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:21 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 224):

Well put. Most of the flying public have no idea what kind of hours we put in or what things go on behind the scenes. 99.9% of people I speak to are dumbfounded when I tell them we are only paid as long as the aircraft is moving. All the delays and sitting preflighting and all the jazz... goes unpaid, save for the per diem. While I was a flight attendant, it was more than normal to be on duty as much as 14 hours... 16 during IROP. During that time we are in physical presence of the pax for 11-12 hours throughout the course of the day. The rest is preflighting and between boarding and deplaning when we grab a snack or cig or freshen up. There's little "me time" for an airline crew until they get to their layover.

The job I do now, medical coding, all I see of the public is their medical charts and operative reports. I sit in a chair, in a cubicle for 8 hours. Hardly difficult work, or strenuous or stressful for that matter. The only stressful event is when the snack machine is on the blink. I've worked in other stressful and fast paced environments as well, other than flying. Being an airline crew member was the most rewarding and most stressful job I've ever had. You have quick turns, bad weather, mechanic problems, pissed off pax and a myriad of other problems every single day. On top of that you can have mechanical emergencies and medical emergencies at any moment. You have to keep smiling and pretend your life is perfect, even in the face of adversity. You have long hours on your feet and short nights with little or no food at times.

So, to all of you who say it can't be that hard to fly a plane or evacuate a plane... go ahead and try it, today, with absolutely no experience or training and get back to me...

Buy a guy for what he's worth and sell him for what he THINKS he's worth... Sheesh...
 
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CALTECH
Posts: 3485
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:59 am

Flew Continental up to EWR this August, Jumpseat as there were no seats left. Flew LOT out to Warsaw in Coach, pretty good, flew LOT Warsaw to Frankfurt in coach, very nice, flew Continental Frankfurt to Newark in Business First, what a nice surprise, had to fly jumpseat Newark to Orlando as there were no seats available that whole day. Enjoyed it all. In Newark to Orlando leg, 3 Elites were upgraded to 1st Class, and 3 others were standby revenues who were boarded and my chance for a seat in the back was gone. Go Continental, but it sucks not having seats for non-rev traveling when business is this good. Oh well,........
You are here.
 
764flyer
Posts: 75
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:33 am

I had to check out why this thread had over 200 entries and now I see why...a couple people start mouthing off about a benefit that is well deserved and it's bound to get some responses.

A couple points to add...
Getting first class domestically is basically a thing of the past, at least on the airlines I'm the most familiar with which are Delta and AA. If an employee, even on vacation pass, gets f/c on the domestic system it is indeed their lucky day. About the only routes where the premium cabin is available is on international or hawaii flights and there is a VERY good reason for that. DL for one will not offer upgrades on these routes because it would cut into their margins if frequent fliers knew they could upgrade rather than pay full fare. Often the premium cabin is completely full but on those occasions where there are a few seats left, it is NOT in the best interest of the airline to upgrade paying passengers. Letting employees and buddy pass riders take those empty seats is hardlythe end of the world. And on AA at least, employees pay a pretty hefty surcharge to fly in f/c or business internationally.
 
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na747
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:41 pm

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:01 am

Quoting 764flyer (Reply 227):
AA at least, employees pay a pretty hefty surcharge to fly in f/c or business internationally

Yes we do. And God forbid you fly with other family members/guests on your passes at the same time cuz the service charges come out of your paycheck all at once. If one's not careful, the check will come out void and then you will still owe the company money on your next paycheck! Sad & hard to believe but true.
 eyepopping 
 
bok269
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Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 10:19 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:00 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 224):

Pilots are on duty for 12 or 14 hours a day too. They may only be flying the plane for eight of those hours, but the other four or six come from layovers in various airports, as well as the time spent preflighting the plane, reviewing the flight plans, and doing other outside-the-cockpit activities that are necessary for the safe operation of the flight. Which, by the way, they don't get paid for. Even if they're on duty for 14 hours, if they fly 8 hours they get paid for 8 hours, meaning that they're giving the company six hours of work for free. I doubt that that is the case with most office jobs.

-Mir

Not to mention, those are hardly ever "normal hours" That could be 3 AM to 5 PM, 7 PM to 9 AM, the list goes on. But they only get paid for the time in flight, no matter what time of day that is.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
DH8PU
Posts: 47
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 1:49 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:52 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 15):
well I am daily 12 to 14 hours in an office

Are you sure about that? My contract allows up to 14 hours of duty time along with the privision to allow me to push that to 14h30 if required. 13 hour duty days are pretty normal for me and I am sure the are for most crew's around the world.
Cabin secure and doors checked
 
huskyaviation
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:35 am

A few comments now that I've read this entire thread:

1. I have absolutely no problem with crewmembers flying in first/business after all of the paying customers have been upgraded, etc. It is a nice benefit if you can get it, and airline employees work hard. As a non-airline person it does seem like those who have a problem with it are basically speaking out of jealousy and nothing more. Maybe there is even a benefit to it: people seeing other passengers in those classes might want to pay the next time to get the privileges associated with flying in first/business. Instead of the negative image, maybe it works in the opposite direction. Who really knows?

2. For pilots in particular, are you not on straight salary or do you get paid by the hour/flight? I honestly have no idea. Also, do retired employees retain non-rev benefits of any kind?

3. The secondary arguments in this thread about the hours worked--well no sympathy there. I work more hours than 99% of you. I frequently spend all nighters in the office, working 36 straight hours or more, and I'm expected to be back at the office the next morning regardless of how much sleep I got. The other night, I got an hour nap between 4-5am sleeping upright in my chair at my desk with the lights turned off. Sometimes I sleep on the floor when my back hurts. I don't complain, cause I got what I bargained for--it's a choice I've made. And it's the choice you've made.
 
iairallie
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 231):
3. The secondary arguments in this thread about the hours worked--well no sympathy there. I work more hours than 99% of you. I frequently spend all nighters in the office, working 36 straight hours or more, and I'm expected to be back at the office the next morning regardless of how much sleep I got. The other night, I got an hour nap between 4-5am sleeping upright in my chair at my desk with the lights turned off. Sometimes I sleep on the floor when my back hurts. I don't complain, cause I got what I bargained for--it's a choice I've made. And it's the choice you've made.

We're not complaining about our hours just pointing out to the office worker guy who seemed to think our hours weren't as long as his what our hours actually are.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 231):
2. For pilots in particular, are you not on straight salary or do you get paid by the hour/flight? I honestly have no idea. Also, do retired employees retain non-rev benefits of any kind?

Generally speaking US crewmembers are paid on salary/hourly hybrid model. Crew get a minimum monthly pay guarantee for x number of hours (based on contract) regardless of hours actually flown. You get paid for any hours worked over that guarantee in addition to your base salary. Crew also get perdiem pay of 1-2.5 dollars an hour for every hour they are away from base to cover expenses like meals. Flight pay is not paid until the doors shut/engines on/aircraft pushes back even though most companies require crew to show to work 1-2 hours before departure for preflight briefings, checks etc. and pay stops when the door opens/plane blocks in/engines shut down even though you are still doing paperwork, deplaneing pax, and in some cases cleaning the aircraft.

[Edited 2007-09-01 19:06:06]
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
huskyaviation
Posts: 912
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:42 am

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 232):
Generally speaking US crewmembers are paid on salary/hourly hybrid model. Crew get a minimum monthly pay guarantee for x number of hours (based on contract) regardless of hours actually flown. You get paid for any hours worked over that guarantee in addition to your base salary. Crew also get perdiem pay of 1-2.5 dollars an hour for every hour they are away from base to cover expenses like meals. Flight pay is not paid until the doors shut/engines on/aircraft pushes back even though most companies require crew to show to work 1-2 hours before departure for preflight briefings, checks etc. and pay stops when the door opens/plane blocks in/engines shut down even though you are still doing paperwork, deplaneing pax, and in some cases cleaning the aircraft.

Gotcha, thanks!
 
billreid
Posts: 761
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:04 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:59 am

This is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO funny.

I hear very few nonbiased individuals commenting if any.

Why not ask someone who doesn't fly EVER up front, who isn't a frequent flier and doesn't work for an airline or in the industry.

The question will always come back to WHO is really paying for the seat? The answer must be from the revenue base.
I for one don't believe employees should get 1st or non paying revenue passengers.

I like the AA employee programme. The employees pay a premium to sit up front, just as the customers. Sure an employee can fly to Europe in F/C for about $200. I find that very very fair given that a revenue passenger pays $6,500 for the same seat. What this does is maintain the value of the seat as well as covering some of the airlines costs.

I have had a dialogue with many airline employee on the fact that they believe a seat or service has no value.

I recently heard an airline CEO explain why his airline did not offer free upgrades. The statement he made was "If you give 1st away at economy prices, then you get economy product." That is why we now have plastic glasses in 1st on so many airlines and the service is basically Y in a bigger seat.

I believe in Quality before compromise.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
Kuna
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:38 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:08 am

Quoting BillReid (Reply 234):
I like the AA employee programme. The employees pay a premium to sit up front, just as the customers. Sure an employee can fly to Europe in F/C for about $200. I find that very very fair given that a revenue passenger pays $6,500 for the same seat. What this does is maintain the value of the seat as well as covering some of the airlines costs.

Just a little news flash for you, most airlines charge their non-rev employees (non deadhead crew) a surcharge to fly up front. Northwest makes us pay for it, its not free, nor did I ever incline that it was free.
Pinnacle Airlines
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:03 pm

Since this thread has gone from being an on-topic discussion on deadheading to one regarding employee non-revenue travel in first class, which is not exactly the topic, this thread is being locked.

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