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micstatic
Topic Author
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Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:48 pm

Every now and then I come across a situation where I see 3 or 4 pilots up in first class on short haul domestic flights. This seems odd to me. I would think that airlines would want to either sell all of those seats or give elite customers the chance to upgrade. Just looking for some opinions on this practice.

micstatic
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thirteenright
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:52 pm

Quoting Micstatic (Thread starter):
Every now and then I come across a situation where I see 3 or 4 pilots up in first class on short haul domestic flights. This seems odd to me. I would think that airlines would want to either sell all of those seats or give elite customers the chance to upgrade. Just looking for some opinions on this practice.

They're probably standby crewmembers who are commuting and therefore are boarded last. They only sit in first when there is availability and the Flight Attendants move them there.
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:59 pm

Quoting Micstatic (Thread starter):
Every now and then I come across a situation where I see 3 or 4 pilots up in first class on short haul domestic flights. This seems odd to me. I would think that airlines would want to either sell all of those seats or give elite customers the chance to upgrade. Just looking for some opinions on this practice.

Well after all paying customers are onboard and there are still seats open while those seats be given to dead heads. I would look at it as a kind gesture from their co-workers to allow them to relax in comfort.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
N766UA
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:59 pm

They're most likely deadheads or just headed somewhere on vacation. If nobody upgrades and the seats are empty, most airlines will give them to non-rev, standby employees. Happens all the time.
 
zrs70
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:05 am

There are cases in which employees are entitled to positive space first class.
Usually, the employee can have the F seat if it is available. The question is, "What does 'available' really mean?

Is a seat available if there are others who would like to upgrade, but don't have a valid way to support the upgrade?
Is a seat available if a full fare passenger is still in Y?
Is a seat available if a passenger wants to upgrade, has the coupon or miles to do so, but the upgrade window has passed?
21 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2021
 
gsoflyer
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:13 am

The airline industry is full of entitlement of this sort. Airline employees get reduced or free fares for travel. Free upgrades. Etc. So I ask, why? Why do I pay for the airline employees to fly free?

An engineer still has to pay for software.
Pharmacists still have to pay for medicine.
Chemists still have to pay for medicines.
Engineers still have to pay for software.
Employees at Universities still have to pay for classes.

There is no better "professional advantage" than that in the airline and medical industry in the US. And it is funny, those two fields are the ones in constant trouble it seems.

So I ask why. Why are airline employees entitled to service that the rest of us have to pay for. They are already paid for the job.

And I am sure I will be flamed for this, but seriously. You should be upgrading paying passengers, even if not premier, before you put employees in those seats. After all, the paying passengers are, well PAYING, while the employees are not.

But that is the entitlement mentality of airline employees. Sure, management may make a lot (they do in every industry), but when unions talk of not caring if the airline goes out of business and making demands that continue to make an airline unprofitable. Yeah, I have a problem with the whole thing.
 
micstatic
Topic Author
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:14 am

In this case they were not the last on the plane. Thanks for the responses guys
S340,DH8,AT7,CR2/7,E135/45/170/190,319,320,717,732,733,734,735,737,738,744,752,762,763,764,772,M80,M90
 
STJ
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:22 am

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 6):
So I ask why. Why are airline employees entitled to service that the rest of us have to pay for. They are already paid for the job.

Because anytime you go to work for an airline they always point out one of the benefits is that you get to travel Non-Rev and they always will point that out as to why you get paid less.

One of the biggest misconception about any job is the salary you are paid and the benefits (or cost of those benefits) being counted as part of one's salary. Benefits have cost to a company and as such can be counted as part of one's gross salary versus net salary which is the actual $$ per hour.
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:28 am

Many times first class seating while deadheading is a part of the employees' Union contract.
 
N766UA
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:28 am

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 5):
So I ask, why? Why do I pay for the airline employees to fly free?

Because airline employees are by far the most insecure, underappreciated, overworked, crapped-on employees on the face of the earth. When you're a pilot on your fifth company or a ramp agent making minimum wage for hard labor, it's the least the airlines could do.

As for university employees, in many cases the children of said employees can go to class for free, if they're accepted. But that's moot anyway.
 
argiepilot
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 5):
So I ask, why? Why do I pay for the airline employees to fly free?

Travel benefits could be considered part of our salaries. If we were not given those travel benefits, our salaries would probably be higher and those increased costs would be passed on to you -the customer. Thus, you may end up paying the same, or even more than now, for your ticket.
 
micstatic
Topic Author
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:49 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 8):
Many times first class seating while deadheading is a part of the employees' Union contract.

Do you know what airlines have this type of contract specifically? In my opinion it is poor customer service.
S340,DH8,AT7,CR2/7,E135/45/170/190,319,320,717,732,733,734,735,737,738,744,752,762,763,764,772,M80,M90
 
dl767captain
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:54 am

I understand why you believe that airlines should sell those seats or give them to elite members, but truthfully the FAs and Pilots deserve it. The passengers are very important to airlines but the crew members are even more important, so their company rewards their hard work and dedication with a first class seat, it's not like the airline really loses a lot of money, and it is a great perk for cabin crew that have sacrificed a lot during bankruptcies, i think if those privileges were taken away there would be a riot. But honestly i think it is great that airlines allow them to get the first class seats.
 
luisca
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:58 am

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 5):
The airline industry is full of entitlement of this sort. Airline employees get reduced or free fares for travel. Free upgrades. Etc. So I ask, why? Why do I pay for the airline employees to fly free?

An engineer still has to pay for software.
Pharmacists still have to pay for medicine.
Chemists still have to pay for medicines.
Engineers still have to pay for software.
Employees at Universities still have to pay for classes

Its called benefits, just like an employee at a retail store gets items at cost, like restaurant workers get free food.

Marginal cost for an airline are really low, it cost them pennies to fly an extra passenger, thats why they do it for free only when their is space available, and as a courtesy if F is available they upgrade, I dont see anything exaggerated in this, it probably only cost the airline 10 to 20 dollars to do this and it is one of the few perks one still has for working in the airlines.

Your argument is pointless.

Besides usually employees get free tuition at universities and my aunt got free medicine at a pharmaceutical.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
gsoflyer
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:08 am

It is so funny to hear the responses of people on this. The most crapped on, under-appreciated employees? Do you not realize that ever industry thinks this?

Engineers are losing their jobs overseas at alarming rates
All salaried employees work far more than a standard 40 hour work week
Cuts in benefits in every industry
Cuts in workforce while no cuts in work to be done

This stuff is not new in any field in the last decade. Now to say this is part of negotiation, I can see that. And I'm not going to be one of these people who say FA and Pilots have easy or hard jobs. But what about the ticket agents, customer service reps, mechanics, ramp workers et al who get the benefits too. When you are talking about thousands and thousands of employees getting this while customers are put elsewhere. Well, that is just poor customer appreciation. The airlines are here to make money, not to make employees happy (you know, the way every other field works).

Quote:
I understand why you believe that airlines should sell those seats or give them to elite members, but truthfully the FAs and Pilots deserve it.

And it is this kind of comment that really amuses me. The employees are worth more than the customers, essentially? Sure, there is no company without employees. But without customers, you do not get paid. With the way the airlines are losing money, you'd think they would do whatever they could to keep customers not employees. So why do employees get perks over customers in this field, while in most other fields, customers get the perks over employees?
 
Avianca
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 12):
The passengers are very important to airlines but the crew members are even more important, so their company rewards their hard work and dedication with a first class seat

is it really so hard compared to other jobs.... well I am daily 12 to 14 hours in an office.... I am sure any crew doesnt have so much hours to work....
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
dl767captain
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:19 am

Quoting Avianca (Reply 15):
is it really so hard compared to other jobs.... well I am daily 12 to 14 hours in an office.... I am sure any crew doesnt have so much hours to work

No offense but it is a lot more difficult to fly a plane than to work in an office, and they are responsible for all the passenger's safety and lives while flying, thats a pretty big responsibility, i think they deserve a reward.
 
Jeff G
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:19 am

Not to mention that at many airlines, the employees pay for their pass privileges, either as a flat yearly fee or a nominal per leg charge. And for sure they're not getting paid the big bucks you think they are anyway. They're paying for the privilege one way or another.

Besides, space available means just that: there was available space. They wouldn't be sitting in first class unless there was space available there. That means that all possible first class seats and upgrades were sold, and there were still open premium seats. I'm sure the airline would prefer to have sold that space for additional money, but since they didn't, what is the problem if an employee sits there instead of in a middle seat or a jumpseat?
 
theginge
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:24 am

Benefits for Airline employees are not what they used to be. In the UK the tax is now almost always more than the reduced fare that you pay for European and domestic routes, and also a lot of long haul routes. A commercial fare european return can often be purchased for only £20 more than the discounted staff ticket, and you are not offloadable.

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 5):
And I am sure I will be flamed for this, but seriously. You should be upgrading paying passengers, even if not premier, before you put employees in those seats. After all, the paying passengers are, well PAYING, while the employees are not.

So with the above are you saying that if for instance there were 15 free seats in Business class then the airline should upgrade 15 passengers from economy just to fill the seats?? If this happend then no one would buy business class seats as they know they would get upgraded from economy. It doesn't happen on trains where they have spare seats in first class and people get moved from standard class so why should airlines do it?

People get benifits from all kinds of jobs, if I worked for a car dealer then I would be entitled to a heavlily discounted car. As a normal car customer I don't complain that I am paying for them to have a cheaper car where I am buying a normal car.

As has been said above it doesn't cost the airline much to fly an employee on a discounted ticket. In fact there are some full fare commercial tickets where the airline makes no money at all as these are subsidised by higher business class fares.
 
lincoln
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting Zrs70 (Reply 4):
Is a seat available if there are others who would like to upgrade, but don't have a valid way to support the upgrade?
Is a seat available if a full fare passenger is still in Y?
Is a seat available if a passenger wants to upgrade, has the coupon or miles to do so, but the upgrade window has passed?

Yes, Yes, and Yes. In all of those cases the seat is available as, within the paramaters of the airlines' policies, it has not been otherwise occupied.

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 5):
Why do I pay for the airline employees to fly free?

An engineer still has to pay for software.
Pharmacists still have to pay for medicine.
Chemists still have to pay for medicines.
Engineers still have to pay for software.
Employees at Universities still have to pay for classes.

Professional/industry discounts exist in more places than you might imagine...
1) Most software companies do offer their product to employees for free/at a reduced rate
2) Not really an accurate comparison, after all, the pharmacy isn't the one producing the medecine.
3) This is a duplicate of $1
4) You may be suprised. Depending on the university most, if not all that I am aware of offer their employees the ability to take classes either for free or at a steep discount.

Let's not forget
1) Movie theaters- Most provide passes for their employees to see free movies
2) Restaurants - Most allow their employees to eat for free/discounted (in fact a few friends have mentioned their bosses chewing them out for not eating enough [so that they are familiar with all of the options])
3) Car manufacturers/dealers - Offer employee pricing
4) The audio visual industry - Some very steep discounts/free product can be had if you're in the industry and know who to talk to
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
naritaflyer
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:28 am

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 11):
Do you know what airlines have this type of contract specifically? In my opinion it is poor customer service.

Air Canada. This same thought ocurred to me on a flight from YVR-YYZ and there were at least six pilots seating in J Class. I asked about it and they said it's in their contract for positive J booking. I think they look stupid. All the paying passengers are in the back and employees in the front.

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 16):
No offense but it is a lot more difficult to fly a plane than to work in an office, and they are responsible for all the passenger's safety and lives while flying, thats a pretty big responsibility, i think they deserve a reward.

Blah! Blah! Blah! I do take offense at this ignorant post. I think flying an airplane is much easire than MY office work. MY office work has the responsibility of taking care of a few thousand workers and their families' well being. Flying an airplane is like driving a bus. A pilot has no more responsibility than I do.
 
gsoflyer
Posts: 900
Joined: Sat May 12, 2001 12:31 pm

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:29 am

Quote:
No offense but it is a lot more difficult to fly a plane than to work in an office, and they are responsible for all the passenger's safety and lives while flying, thats a pretty big responsibility, i think they deserve a reward.

Paying for an "employee pass" for an airline, bus commpany, amtrak or whoever means just that, getting a perk that should put you in the open seats at a vastly reduced rate if not for free. So, I go again, why should an employee sit in FC or BC while a full fare passenger sits in coach?

Quote:
No offense but it is a lot more difficult to fly a plane than to work in an office, and they are responsible for all the passenger's safety and lives while flying, thats a pretty big responsibility, i think they deserve a reward.

And now you just went there. How about my company cutting 75% of the engineering staff while making products to dispense fuel for cars, ships, airplanes, jets and developing avionics hardware and software? Am I any less responsible for the safety of others? After all, I develop the systems, you just use them. Then again, I don't get the perks that you do. And unlike your job, I don't have the government limiting the hours I can "work" ....

There are tons of jobs out there, with people making less money with no perks, where you have people or the products they make that directly impact the safety of others:
Construction Workers, Architects, Engineers, Bus Drivers, School Bus Drivers, Train Engineers, Conductors, The guy who replaces lights on towers, bridge inspectors.... I can keep on with this list.
 
gsoflyer
Posts: 900
Joined: Sat May 12, 2001 12:31 pm

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:33 am

Quote:
So with the above are you saying that if for instance there were 15 free seats in Business class then the airline should upgrade 15 passengers from economy just to fill the seats?? If this happend then no one would buy business class seats as they know they would get upgraded from economy. It doesn't happen on trains where they have spare seats in first class and people get moved from standard class so why should airlines do it?

No, I am not saying that at all. The airline has to make money. I am saying that if 15 seats are free in business class and 15 employees are dead heading.... THEN you upgrade your 15 highest mileage coach flyers and put your employees in coach.

If no one is dead heading, then no one gets an upgrade outside of cost.
 
Avianca
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:38 am

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 16):
No offense but it is a lot more difficult to fly a plane than to work in an office, and they are responsible for all the passenger's safety and lives while flying, thats a pretty big responsibility, i think they deserve a reward.

as other mentioned, a office job can be much more difficult thatn flying a plane....

in generall i do not have any problem that pilots/fas get the reward and can sit in first but what i do no like is that they guys fill up with there carry on all the space for normal passengers, specially as there carry on isnt small like a normal passenger can carry....
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
airtran737
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:41 am

If customers want the upgrade then fork out the cash, or use the frequent flier miles. They are no more entitled to it than we are. Furthermore may pilot contracts have stipulations that say that if they are deadheading and there is a seat open in business/first then they get it before any other non-revs. I grow weary of the people on this site who want shit for free, we don't expect business/first, hell with load factors they way they are we don't even expect to get on the damn flight. I am hitching a ride on FL tonight, and if I get on the plane I am sure I will be in a middle seat, but I won't complain. Business class is a nice treat, I tend to get it more often than not because there are few employees left at FL who have a priority code higher than mine.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
JayDub
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:42 am

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 5):
And I am sure I will be flamed for this, but seriously.

Yep. You can always point out the non-airline, "I'd just be happy to see the airplanes everyday"-type people by their arguments on this topic. Go work for just about any airline for a week and your opinion will change. I love how someone has to re-hash this argument constantly.

Not only is it a perk of working in this sometimes clusterf*** of a business, but it is a grand tradition. Airline employees have been flying this way as long as their has been commercial air service.

And for the record, no non-rev should ever feel "entitled" to a F or J class seat but, if a seat is open after all upgrades are complete, it's damn nice feeling when you manage to snag one.

Well put, AirTran737!

[Edited 2007-08-26 18:46:19]
"Travel is only glamorous in retrospect." - Paul Theroux
 
deltairlines
Posts: 7220
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:46 am

Unless the reason is safety-related (such as pilot is dead-heading YYZ-YUL in order to fly a plane YUL-LHR that same day), I could see the need for a first class seat, but in reality, on short sectors, crew can survive in coach and still be able to perform their functions fine.

One of the things I like best about Delta's system is that unless you're a dead-heading pilot, every revenue elite passenger will end up in First before any employee, and then any non-elite passenger that wants to do an upgrade will get upgraded first - the system is all computerized and automatic, and it is quite nice knowing that a non-rev will not be taking my upgrade away so they can go on their travels.
 
drewwright
Posts: 530
Joined: Tue May 15, 2001 3:51 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:48 am

Elite pax do get upgrade priority over nonrevs whether positive space or space available. If you see crew members in first class, it is because all the elites have already been upgraded. And they certainly will not just randomly upgrade someone from coach to first....that would cause a riot!
In nearly every profession, there are things called perquisites (a.k.a. perks, and not to be confused with the word 'prerequisites'). A space available upgrade is one of our few perks. Anyone that has a problem with that needs to get over it because that will never go away. Though i must say I would gladly give up that particular perk in exchange for a company car or an expense account.
Hey, I'm thinking of hijacking this thread to start fussing about executive compensation. Anyone interested?
 
JayDub
Posts: 359
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:14 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:51 am

Quoting Drewwright (Reply 27):
Hey, I'm thinking of hijacking this thread to start fussing about executive compensation. Anyone interested?

Count me in Drew...I'm so sick of this argument from people who know nothing of how this system works.

[Edited 2007-08-26 18:52:48]
"Travel is only glamorous in retrospect." - Paul Theroux
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:02 am

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 21):
So, I go again, why should an employee sit in FC or BC while a full fare passenger sits in coach?

Because that passenger bought a Y fare and that's what they're entitled to.

Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 20):
Air Canada. This same thought ocurred to me on a flight from YVR-YYZ and there were at least six pilots seating in J Class. I asked about it and they said it's in their contract for positive J booking. I think they look stupid. All the paying passengers are in the back and employees in the front.

What you fail to recognize is the contract is an agreement between the company and the union. If the company had major concerns about the appearance/financial implications or any other issues they wouldn't agree to that clause.

Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 20):
Blah! Blah! Blah! I do take offense at this ignorant post. I think flying an airplane is much easire than MY office work. MY office work has the responsibility of taking care of a few thousand workers and their families' well being. Flying an airplane is like driving a bus. A pilot has no more responsibility than I do.

I'm glad you think that but I can assure you it's not quite like that. Let's see, do you take a physical ever 6 months? A proficiency check every 6 months, a line check every year? Is everything you say in your office recorded? I rather doubt it. Making a statement such as you did just shows how some people don't have a clue.

Just to let everyone know, not only are pilots and FAs entitled to J/F class travel but at many airlines all employees (there may be certain criteria) are also entitled to the same benefit! Pilots and FAs are just more visible because of the uniform.

Quoting Micstatic (Thread starter):
I would think that airlines would want to either sell all of those seats or give elite customers the chance to upgrade.

Hate to burst your bubble, but airlines do have the seats for sale and do offer elites upgrades. However, there is always a certain percentage of customers that want "something for nothing".

Bottom line is it's part of the compensation package, so just get over it! Or better yet go to work for an airline then you will get the same benefits!
Fly fast, live slow
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18512
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 11):
In my opinion it is poor customer service.

You think unions care about customer service? Or even the success of the entire company?  rotfl 

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 14):
The most crapped on, under-appreciated employees? Do you not realize that ever industry thinks this?

Of course they do. It's human nature. But most airline employees could change to just about any other industry and make up to double the pay. Travel benefits are part of the compensation, just like healthcare benefits in some jobs, daycare, 401K, etc..

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 16):
No offense but it is a lot more difficult to fly a plane than to work in an office,

Nonsense. Unless you've worked in every office you have no authority to make that blanket statement.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
kearney
Posts: 137
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RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:26 am

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 5):
The airline industry is full of entitlement of this sort. Airline employees get reduced or free fares for travel. Free upgrades. Etc. So I ask, why? Why do I pay for the airline employees to fly free?

No one would work on the ramp for an airline for minimum wage, and put up with the hassle of working at an airport (the commute, the security clearance B.S. etc.) When you could work down the street at wal-mart for just as much. Thats why you have flight benifits.

I don't understand why everyone complains about the perks of other peoples job's. If you want to be a ramper, go for it, and stop complaining like you dont have any perks at your job.

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 14):
When you are talking about thousands and thousands of employees getting this while customers are put elsewhere. Well, that is just poor customer appreciation. The airlines are here to make money, not to make employees happy (you know, the way every other field works).

Customers are not put elsewhere?!? Customers are put where they paid for. If you pay for first class you are put there, if you pay for economy, thats your seat in the back. If you are lucky enough to get an upgrade then you may end up in buisness.

Now that every customer is on board they assign seats to employee's. First any pilots and f/a's flying on "buisness" status for deadheading are assigned a buisness seat if available. Next any one who has paid an increased fair pass, traveling for pleasure, is assigned a buisness seat if available. And lastly anyone traveling for pleasure at the lowest rate is assigned an economy seat. if economy is full, the gate agent will use his or her judgement, and if you are dressed appropriatly you may just get a buisness seat.

In my opinion employee travel is a great way for the airline's to make a little extra money. Think about it, they charge you next to nothing, but they dont have to give you a confirmed seat, so you just show up and if their is a seat you can have it. And then their is the option for the buisness seat, where you do actual pay a bit more, however you still fly standby.

I don't know why anyone here would have a problem with this process, and if you do, i suggest you quit your job and come work for the airlines just to see how great we have it!

"The airlines are not here to make employee's happy" Maybe I can agree with that. So next time your flight is hanging at a gate for an hour so you miss your connection and something was stolen from your bag, just remember the employee's are not happy. I think the base of any great buisness starts with employee's who love their job, and feel treated with respect.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18512
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:29 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 29):
If the company had major concerns about the appearance/financial implications or any other issues they wouldn't agree to that clause.

The company agrees to those clauses because it's less expensive than facing a strike or work action. There is zero financial upside to unions, other than for the actual members, and even then it's at the expense of their professional growth. The CEO of Whole Foods said it best when he said "the union is like having herpes. It doesn't kill you, but it's unpleasant and inconvenient, and it stops a lot of people from becoming your lover". Like any self serving entity, it's good for the virus, but not the body as a whole.

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 22):
. I am saying that if 15 seats are free in business class and 15 employees are dead heading.... THEN you upgrade your 15 highest mileage coach flyers and put your employees in coach.

You dilute your business class product that way by giving away your premium product for a lower fare, even if it's a full fare Y ticket. There is a reason everyone is upgraded domestically, and few people actually pay for domestic first class, whereas very few upgrades are offered internationally, but everyone pays for business class.
I don't take responsibility at all
 
mcdu
Posts: 1662
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:34 am

Quoting Micstatic (Thread starter):
Just looking for some opinions on this practice.

This is a hot button issue for me. If you really want a F class seat then the airline makes those available via the purchase or exchange of FF miles. At my carrier the only time we are DH in F class is to a flight assignment. In the past I have flown from the east coast to SFO, then put in a center seat in coach and sent back to the east coast in one duty period. 8+ hours in the air and then the bag drag to the parking lot and try to stay awake on the way home. If there was a F class seat available I would have been eligible for an upgrade but unfortunately for me there were none.

As an employee I would love to see the F class occupied by full fare paying customers. However, if that cabin is not full then I fully support the boarding of my fellow employees in those seats before just handing that seat over willy nilly to a Y fare pax. Again if you want that seat it is available for purchase. If you feel it is too costly then enjoy your affordable coach seat. If you perhaps care to save lives behind your desk and earn a bonus then you might be able to afford an F class seat on your next venture.
 
globaldude
Posts: 173
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 1:10 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:34 am

Lets be clear here...for all of the naysayers...

If you see uniformed or non-rev pax in business or first class then rest assured that NO person was removed from the seat to accomadate them. All of the people who purchased that class of service are sitting in the other seats. In addition , the upgradable elite pax are also accounted for in those seats. Then, once all qualifying pax are seated, whether as a courtesy upgrade or miles or even those who pay upgrade fee are seated...then the open seats become available to deadheading crew, employee, family member etc (all in date of hire order).

Random upgrades rarely occur and if coach pax would be more comfy up front...then they need to pay for it. otherwise, it would be unfair to those higher fare pax who actually pay for the service.
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2844
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:35 am

It's next to impossible to nonrev anymore because of websites like expedia selling open seats for next to nothing. Add to that smaller aircraft for more frequency. A few airlines dont' allow employees to non-rev in first. DL is one that comes to mind.

BTW gsoflyer. At $269 roundtrip you're not even paying the full cost for your own seat.

Passnegers pay greyhound fares yet they expect first class service. You want to talk about a sense of entitlement?
DMI
 
socalatc
Posts: 430
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:16 pm

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:43 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 8):
Many times first class seating while deadheading is a part of the employees' Union contract.

At Alaska, pilots deadheading on a flight 4 hours or more they are required to sit in first class per their contract. I believe they can only sit in coach on a voluntarily basis. I dont see any problem with this. In this case they are flying 4 hours+ to meet with their aircraft then flying another few hours. Makes all the sense in the world to have them sleep or relax while they reposition.
 
Evan767
Posts: 2198
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:52 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 14):
It is so funny to hear the responses of people on this. The most crapped on, under-appreciated employees? Do you not realize that ever industry thinks this?

Sure every industry thinks this, but for airline employees, they get the worst of the worst. To be clear, I am a caddy. You have no idea how much stress they have to put up with day after day. Imagine you're a gate agent.

You're standing next to a passenger who is down on her knees crying because the flight you're working is overbooked and you have to tell them she isn't going to make it to her father's funeral.

A family of 5 who just booked their once-in-a-lifetime dream vacation to Disneyland just had their flight overbooked and they can't get out all day. You, the agent who was working with them, see them and try to get them out the next day... and the next.. until they finally give up.

You're getting yelled at by a misunderstanding passenger because his flight is delayed because of weather. He isn't going to make his connection to Sydney and is demanding you get him there on time. He demands to know your first and last name and where you live. Wouldn't you be frightened?

It's completely true that airline employees have some of the worst jobs in any industry. That doesn't apply to all of them, but when one little employee, who after a hard day's work, takes a seat in first class to finally have a relaxing, stress-free moment, you're bitching about it? Get real.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
N822ME
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:31 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:51 am

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 21):
Paying for an "employee pass" for an airline, bus commpany, amtrak or whoever means just that, getting a perk that should put you in the open seats at a vastly reduced rate if not for free. So, I go again, why should an employee sit in FC or BC while a full fare passenger sits in coach?

Because that employee is likely traveling as part of their job (on half pay, if that, and no credit toward their monthly work quota) to their next assignment, where they will be in position to fly you across the country.

Remember, people who work for airlines frequently have to travel for business. At some airlines, it isn't confirmed space. You see them on there because they are a.) traveling for work just like you are (just so happens they use their own company to do so) and b.) other opportunities to sell that seat have been exhausted, or it is generally unlikely to be sold.

At my airline, when traveling for business, it's still standby (which I'm sure thrills you to hear). So, when having to go to a meeting across the country, it's last person on the plane, and if no seats left, it's the extra F/A jumpseat between the lavs for 4 hours. In this event, I'm penalized for working for an airline. Oh, can get a confirmed seat.... but then my budget gets hit for the full fare. If I were working in another industry, I could travel cheaper.

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 22):
No, I am not saying that at all. The airline has to make money. I am saying that if 15 seats are free in business class and 15 employees are dead heading.... THEN you upgrade your 15 highest mileage coach flyers and put your employees in coach.

And then you build greater customer dissatisfaction, increased workload by gate agents, and a sense of entitlement among all those on board the aircraft.
 
User avatar
barney captain
Posts: 2414
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:51 am

You're seeing the cherry on the the big cake of doodoo. What you aren't seeing is standing by in an airport for hours (or days) just hoping for a seat - and still not getting one. Have I been given a cushy seat with great service? Yes. Have I been stuck in a center seat with little food because they ran out? Yes. Have I spent 3 days in LAX trying to get to LHR and never getting there? Yep.

If we're talking a scheduled dead head - then absolutely, they should be given a comfortable seat (something we here at WN aren't privy to). If we're talking non-reving or commuting, then I can promise you, paying passengers are taken care of first, we get whats left over - if anything.

EVERY job has perks and benefits - this one is just much more visible and class-splitting (pun intended) than most.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
EXAAUADL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:48 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:58 am

Quoting Micstatic (Thread starter):
Every now and then I come across a situation where I see 3 or 4 pilots up in first class on short haul domestic flights. This seems odd to me. I would think that airlines would want to either sell all of those seats or give elite customers the chance to upgrade. Just looking for some opinions on this practice.

its in their contract if they are deadheading, especially pilots
 
AY104
Posts: 501
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:35 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:00 am

Plain and simple, it is an airline employee benefit. It is always so difficult for most people to allow others to take advantage of their benefits without envy or jealousy. Before one criticizes others, he/she should ask themsevles the question: " If I was the employee, would I turn down the benefit of being able to sit up front? " We all make career choices in life. All jobs come with their own set of benefits and salary ranges. The restaurant that I frequent most, allows all employees to eat what they like. Sometimes I see some of them come into the restaurant with their spouse or boyfriend/girlfriend and have a meal before they start work. I am pleased that they have that perk, and I am grateful for the service they give me. I don't expect the same, as long as the ambiance, quality of food and service are up to my standards, I am happy to eat and drink there and spend my money, if they have the benefit of free meals and happen to be eating the most expensive menu items, I am pleased for them. I also have the choice, if I wish, of joining the hospitality industry and partaking of the benefits it has to offer. I was also an airline employee, and fully participated in the benifits the airline industry has to offer. Now I am in the production industry with a printing company, and receive nowhere near the benefits I did with the airlines. I am still glad when my friends at the airlines receive their benefits and upgrades. I wish that I could travel more, but I cannot. I made my choice years ago, and am not jealous of airline employees, nor envy their job. I worked for the airlines during what I consider the best of times, from 1970 to 1998. I would not change that for anything, nor would I ever want to go back now and put up with the crap that they have to deal with. However I still have that choice. The jealousy and inability of people to be happy for the other person, and the "It's all about me" attitude gets very tiring in this day and age, and it is anything but attractive. Most of the people I know who fly a lot and who are frequent flyers, are happy for the people who take care of them when they fly, and are themselves grateful for the extra comfort that the program upgrades give them. I never expect everyone to have the same slant on life as I do, or the same opinions regarding the subject of this thread. I can say that I would be very surprised if any one of us was is in a position of being offered an upgrade for whatever reason would turn it down. I also doubt very much that the airlines are going to change their policies regarding employee upgrades, at the whim of the few who seem to find it intolerable that an airline employee should be seated in First Class. Just deal with it.
Cheers,
AY104
The only thing a customer should expect for his/her loyalty is good service
 
LH417AF025
Posts: 181
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 7:56 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting Zrs70 (Reply 4):
Is a seat available if a full fare passenger is still in Y?

the seat sure is available... that passenger paid to sit in Y class and that is what they are getting

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 5):
Employees at Universities still have to pay for classes.

not at the universities i know of

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 5):
So I ask why. Why are airline employees entitled to service that the rest of us have to pay for.

most airlines make the employee pay a service charge. this service charge usually makes up for any cost incurred as a result of the employee. if they lose any money on us... its slim to none.

Quoting Micstatic (Reply 11):
In my opinion it is poor customer service.

its poor customer service to have your pilot, flight attendant or other employee get to their destination well rested and ready for their job so they can get you where you need to go ON TIME from point A to point B?

i don't think so

remember, you want them to be rested because when they are not on-time you are going to complain as well

Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 20):
All the paying passengers are in the back and employees in the front.

again.. you paid to sit in the back, and in the back you shall remain.

if you have an upgrade certificate, by all means let the gate agent know... but there is no reason that you should be entitled to sit up front for free.
[
quote=Naritaflyer,reply=20]I think flying an airplane is much easire than MY office work. MY office work has the responsibility of taking care of a few thousand workers and their families' well being[/quote]

Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 20):
i do take offense at this ignorant post

well i take offense to your ignorant post.

who gives you the right to say that your job is harder? are you taking care of hundreds upon hundreds of DIFFERENT people day in and day out....

yeah... didn't think so.

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 22):
THEN you upgrade your 15 highest mileage coach flyers and put your employees in coach.

if they are the 15 highest mileage coach flyers... then why aren't they upgrading with miles?

Quoting Drewwright (Reply 27):
If you see crew members in first class, it is because all the elites have already been upgraded.

true, but depending on the airline... on most EU airlines that happens only when Y is full and its needed.

Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 39):
Have I been stuck in a center seat with little food because they ran out? Yes. Have I spent 3 days in LAX trying to get to LHR and never getting there?

the 'E' seat on a 777. the double excuse me seat in the middle of 5... i feel your pain and its not pretty.
i have slept in heathrow, frankfurt, miami... etc... just to name a few

Quoting AY104 (Reply 41):
Plain and simple, it is an airline employee benefit.

amen to that.

[Edited 2007-08-26 20:32:46]
 
db373
Posts: 235
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2005 12:01 pm

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:42 am

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 5):
The airline industry is full of entitlement of this sort. Airline employees get reduced or free fares for travel. Free upgrades. Etc. So I ask, why? Why do I pay for the airline employees to fly free?

Actually, it's not only the airline industry where this occurs. I work for Universal Studios, and I get in free to Universal, Islands of Adventure, Sea World, Busch Gardens, Wet N' Wild, and get all types of other insane discounts everywhere. It's called a benefit or a perk of a job.

Oh, and for the record, I fail to see how you're paying for the airline employees to fly for free. Last I checked, when you purchase a ticket, you're paying for yourself to fly somewhere. So unless you are buying a plane ticket and then not utilizing it yourself, you can't argue that you're paying for someone else to fly.
Keep Delta My Delta
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:52 am

Here we go again !!!!

It a known benefit of the airline industry to get upgraded if its available.
But listen here guys, it does not happen all the time. A few trips i have sat in Y, and loved the service. The airline i work for, we still pay a fee to fly, be it domestic euro or long haul. We get space avail upgrades only when the flight is closed or once on board the aircraft. I have been lucky enough to get Business 3 times, but on my longest flt, i only got a jumpseat.

I dont agree with some of the comments on the reasons why we get good travel benefits, I love my job, its not the worst thats out there, its not the best thats out there. But its my job, I love it and i work hard at it. Its the same for any job. You get some kind of bonus/benifit, and this just happens to be the one for the airline industry.

Please stop moaning about this, I see this thread all the time with people going on and on, with the same arguments too and for.

This is an aviation site, and its REALLY clear what the benefits are. So, do we really need to discuss it again

(To the ones asking why we get it, would you still be asking if you worked for an airline and got them)
Where does the time go???
 
iFLYjets
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:49 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:56 am

I just had 2 flight attendant deadheads on my DTW PHX flight yesterday. I had 1 non rev FA and I had a NWA captain. I only had 2 people in first class on the 320 so I told them I wanted them in first class so they could relax and enjoy a somewhat decent meal or sleep or whatever. Its something nice to do for your fellow crewmembers if theres space and what not. Better to have crew up there than the Silvers. They spend the whole flight complaining, they are very demanding and think they are gods gift because theyre "elite", when all they do is sit there and clip their toe nails and pick their noses. I much rather have empty seats or crew in first class, some people dont belong up there at all. You find nicer more down to earth people in coach.
 
User avatar
asuflyer05
Posts: 2123
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 8:53 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 21):
How about my company cutting 75% of the engineering staff while making products to dispense fuel for cars, ships, airplanes, jets and developing avionics hardware and software? Am I any less responsible for the safety of others?

Why should my company pay your company more for avionics hardware so they can afford to subsizide your health insurance? I mean why do you and your kids need a full HMO/PPO? Can't you just go to one of those free clinics at the county health center? I mean there are millions of people in this country without health insurance. So what entitles you to it over some pee-on that doesn't get it at their job?

And while you're answering that, why should your company inflate prices to cover the cost of matching you in your 401k?

You know why? It's called a perk. Airlines offer employees SPACE-AVAILABLE first class upgrades because they know how hard it is to retain good people nowadays. If your company pulled your health insurance benefits, you would let them know how pissed you are by talking with your feet.

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 26):
One of the things I like best about Delta's system is that unless you're a dead-heading pilot, every revenue elite passenger will end up in First before any employee, and then any non-elite passenger that wants to do an upgrade will get upgraded first - the system is all computerized and automatic, and it is quite nice knowing that a non-rev will not be taking my upgrade away so they can go on their travels.

What part of "Space-available" did you not understand? The only time employees get upgraded it is because there is space-available. That means that that after all the paid First passengers check-in and after you and I get upgraded with our Medallion upgrades, if there is space-available, an employee can be upgraded. I think if you talk to employees at airlines that offer unlimited upgrades to their elites (CO, DL, US, AA, ?) they can probably count on one hand the number of times they have been upgraded recently.

And I got flamed for this argument a few months back. But if I am in First on an upgrade or I paid for it, I would rather sit next to an airline employee than Joe Blow who got all excited because he got a free upgrade and needs to call everyone he knows to let them know before the door closes.
 
AY104
Posts: 501
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:35 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 20):
I do take offense at this ignorant post. I think flying an airplane is much easire than MY office work.

Yes, it's that old devil "It's all about me!" rearing it's ugly head again. How is anyone able to say that another person's job is "harder" than his/her own. It sounds like a statement that a young child would make, who has yet had no experience in life. I may consider that a brain surgeon has a "harder" job than I do, yet he/she would say that they have chosen their career because of the challenges it represents, and they could never do the type of job that I do. We all have choices in life. The pilots made their career choices, and they are able to fly in comfort at times because of the upgrades. I have also sat in economy class on YVR-YYZ with a pilot who was not upgraded, I assume it was because he was off duty. At any rate, there was no complaint, we had a great conversation about the airlines in general, and he seemed to be very content at the career choice he had made. I would not want the responsibility that he has, again my choice. I really wonder why anyone would think that cockpit crew riding up front would look "stupid". What one would consider an ignorant post, is of interest to many others. If I consider a post to be uninteresting or dull or ignorant to me, I simply don't participate in that posting. I work in the production department of a print shop, doing mostly finishing and some digital printing. For me, it is a lot less stressful than what I did working for the airlines, and some of the tasks are very repetitive. It doesn't pay much, but I would personally consider a management job a lot "harder" even though the pay would be better, but my peace of mind means more to me. It must be extremely frustrating for one to go through life constantly comparing the difficulties of one's livelihood to others' while not having walked in their shoes.
Cheers,
AY104
The only thing a customer should expect for his/her loyalty is good service
 
N353SK
Posts: 1023
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:08 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 5):
The airline industry is full of entitlement of this sort.

Do you mean entitlement like you demanding that people paying coach fares be upgraded to C/F?

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 5):
So I ask, why? Why do I pay for the airline employees to fly free?

How is paying for the employees to fly any worse than paying for an empty seat to fly? Nonrevs frequently go without meals, and the extra fuel involved in transporting a 200lb individual on a 160,000lb. plane is negligible. I guess you're angry about the half a can of lukewarm diet coke you're "buying" for them?

Quoting Naritaflyer (Reply 20):
MY office work has the responsibility of taking care of a few thousand workers and their families' well being.

If you screw up, do 300 of them die?
 
Pboud0
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:08 am

RE: Dead Leg Pilots And FA's In First Class?

Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:09 am

This is always a fun subject.

How can an employee have any faith whatsoever in their company if they get the bottom of the barrel treatment. Where available, and I stress available, employees should be treated the the highest quality by their company, that is how you keep employees happy. If you were treating your employees like dirt and not giving them privileges when those privileges are available, then you are not a very good company.

At times it is in the contract that the employee is entitled to J class, with AC when dead heading captains and only captains are entitled to positive space in J they cannot be removed from J as in most cases if they are not on the specified flight then the flight is delayed or even worse canceled.

Gate agents only U/G employees who are positive if all persons who are ENTITLED and i stress ENTITLED to J are seated in J. Why on earth should someone who is paying 200 bucks return get upgraded to J just so you can sit an employee in Y, what an insult to the employee who puts hours upon hours in an industry that is highly stressful. and airline employees especially those on the ground take an unbelievable amount of abuse from the public, and you have no idea what I mean until you watch a passenger call an employee stupid a moron, swear at the employee, just because the employee who has NO CONTROL over the situation cant do something the passenger wants.

So its like this, I personally highly believe that a company should treat their employees as best they can, because the value of having good people working at your company and having those people offer the best possible service because they are happy with the company far outweighs the complaining from passengers because they think that thri 200 dollar
should entitle them to J instead of the employee. The face of the airline industry is changing and instead of being entitle d to something because its what you paid for, your only even entitled to what you want to pay for, then if you don,t want to pay for J then there should be no reason why you should be bumped into J over an employee who has worked darn hard and the company is just trying to show their thanks.

Just my long winded 2 cents.

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