AA DFW-PTY-DFW When?

PRAirbus · Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:58 am

I recently read on this forum something about AA re-starting DFW-PTY service. Cannot find any details...no one at AA knows about that...anyone here knows? AA flew this route years ago during the 727-200 era...not sure why they pulled the plug. Also, it seems that DFW-CCS is gone for good, it was not profitable eventhough load factors were usually high. Please, elaborate on DFW-PTY, thanks!

elmothehobo · Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:21 am

Quoting PRAirbus (Thread starter):
Also, it seems that DFW-CCS is gone for good

About time. Rumored for awhile.

Quoting PRAirbus (Thread starter):
it was not profitable eventhough load factors were usually high.

Typical of the Dallas/Ft. Worth-Latin America market. High loads, piss poor yields. The high yields come from New York and South Florida, where the expatriate populations and business connections exist, Dallas gets all the connections.

Quoting PRAirbus (Thread starter):
Please, elaborate on DFW-PTY, thanks!

It will launch this winter.

Edit: Grammar

[Edited 2007-08-26 19:43:11]

MAH4546 · Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:37 am

Effective 13 December 2007:

AA 2101 DFW 1645-2215 PTY WeThSaSu 738
AA 2102 PTY 1105-1445 DFW MoThFrSu 738

SJOtoLIR · Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:29 am

CO operates two daily PTY-IAH and vice versa.
It seems PTY-DFW may have a chance due IAH for CO works similar as DFW for AA.

AA767LOVER · Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:31 pm

I know a lot of missionaries that constantly go to PTY from Canada. Religious travel is quite popular. They help churches in Latin America with church development, or else planting churches. It provides another option other than MIA. Hope the yields will be good this time around. Sometimes, if it doesn't work the first time around, it could work again. Just a matter of timing.

LAXdude1023 · Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:16 pm

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 1):
Typical of the Dallas/Ft. Worth-Latin America market. High loads, piss poor yields. The high yields come from New York and South Florida, where the expatriate populations and business connections exist, Dallas gets all the connections.

I wonder why DFW-Latin America gets low Yields though. It cant just be because its mostly connections. DFW has international flights to other parts of the world that seem to have high yields that (I would bet) rely on connections. Ive heard DFW-LGW/FRA/NRT are some of the most profitable flights AA has. I would doubt they rely on much O&D, so (pardon my ignorance) but what makes Latin America different?

Also do all flights from DFW-Latin America have poor yields? I would think at least some of them are good preformers (like DFW-GRU/EZE). Other wise I would think AA would have canned them already. If a flight doesnt preform like AA wants, they doesnt waste much time getting rid of it.

Im glad to hear that DFW is getting two new routes with PTY and also PLS. Hopefully they can work well!

MAH4546 · Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:22 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 5):

Also do all flights from DFW-Latin America have poor yields? I would think at least some of them are good preformers (like DFW-GRU/EZE). Other wise I would think AA would have canned them already. If a flight doesnt preform like AA wants, they doesnt waste much time getting rid of it.

When people say "poor yields", they are simply comparing it in general to the rest of the network. The routes are poor yielding compared to other Latin routes from Miami and New York City, but that doesn't mean they are not profitable. Caracas is the only one that loses a significant amount of money, but with a huge FF base in Venezuela and the fact that if they ended the flight, there is a good chance that Venezuela would not make it easy for them to get back route authority, the flight is here to stay.

Sao Paulo is a moneymaker from Dallas, and always has been.

Buenos Aires does just fine. The main purpose, from day one, was to allow AA to send lower-yielding traffic primarily through Dallas and further boost the performance of JFK/MIA-EZE.

Santiago de Chile is driven by cargo, which makes the flight profitable.

San Jose and Guatemala City are typical, bulky markets that are easy to fill.

LAXdude1023 · Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:34 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 6):
When people say "poor yields", they are simply comparing it in general to the rest of the network. The routes are poor yielding compared to other Latin routes from Miami and New York City, but that doesn't mean they are not profitable. Caracas is the only one that loses a significant amount of money, but with a huge FF base in Venezuela and the fact that if they ended the flight, there is a good chance that Venezuela would not make it easy for them to get back route authority, the flight is here to stay.

Sao Paulo is a moneymaker from Dallas, and always has been.

Buenos Aires does just fine. The main purpose, from day one, was to allow AA to send lower-yielding traffic primarily through Dallas and further boost the performance of JFK/MIA-EZE.

Santiago de Chile is driven by cargo, which makes the flight profitable.

San Jose and Guatemala City are typical, bulky markets that are easy to fill.

Thanks Mark, that explains alot!

AA767LOVER · Mon Aug 27, 2007 5:50 pm

Guate is another case altogether. It certainly warrants service with a 757 from DFW as it is typically full.

2travel2know · Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:58 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
AA 2101 DFW 1645-2215 PTY WeThSaSu 738
AA 2102 PTY 1105-1445 DFW MoThFrSu 738

With that schedule I don't think AA is to offer immediate connections for AA DFW - NRT flight, however a much earlier PTY departure might..
CO has an early afternoon IAH departure, so flying from the U.S./Canada west coast with them is a bit tight, AA late afternoon departure could allow more comfortable connections via DFW.

SJOtoLIR · Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:46 pm

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 8):

Welcome !

.

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 8):
Guate is another case altogether. It certainly warrants service with a 757 from DFW as it is typically full.

GUA-DFW and vice versa is currently operated with 738 on AA.
Regards.

2travel2know · Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:20 pm

After AA DFW-PTY, what next?
Weekend B737-800 service ORD-PTY, BOS-PTY?
Does AA want to try SJU-PTY? or FLL-PTY before NK?

LAXdude1023 · Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:48 pm

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 11):
Weekend B737-800 service ORD-PTY, BOS-PTY?

I highly doubt that. BOS-PTY definately wont happen. AA's precense in BOS seems to be shrinking. I dont think ORD-PTY would either. AA has very minimal precence from ORD-Latin America. Other than the fact that ORD-EZE is coming on board soon, I wouldnt look for any other latin american destinations from ORD. AA is reducing ORD-SJU and ORD-MEX as it is.

2travel2know · Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:20 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 12):
I highly doubt that. BOS-PTY definately wont happen. AA's precense in BOS seems to be shrinking. I dont think ORD-PTY would either. AA has very minimal precence from ORD-Latin America. Other than the fact that ORD-EZE is coming on board soon, I wouldnt look for any other latin american destinations from ORD. AA is reducing ORD-SJU and ORD-MEX as it is.

AA @ BOS shrinking doesn't seem to stop AA flying B757 BOS-PLS (!) once a week soon. (see latest Caribbean Aviation topic). MBJ, AUA, CUN, SJO/LIR are other destinations that might work for AA from BOS.
I would think AA has little or none presence on ORD-Latinamerica because of UA, but UA doesn't fly to PTY from there. Does UA keep flying ORD-SJU and ORD-MEX?

As for AA flights from their other "kind of hub focus cites": SJC, STL and RDU; MBJ, AUA, MEX and LIR would come long before any other Latinamerican destination.

MAH4546 · Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:53 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 11):
After AA DFW-PTY, what next?
Weekend B737-800 service ORD-PTY, BOS-PTY?
Does AA want to try SJU-PTY? or FLL-PTY before NK?

You have to be kidding me. Boston-Panama City? That has to be a joke. If AA expands at PTY again, it will be FLL-PTY if Spirit enters the market.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 13):
I would think AA has little or none presence on ORD-Latinamerica because of UA,

AA is actually bigger in O'Hare-Latin America than UA is, with more flights to Mexico and, soon, daily flights to Buenos Aires. UA operates a daily Sao Paulo flight, a weekly Liberia flight, and some primarily non-daily Mexican routes.

AA767LOVER · Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 10):

I'm aware of that, and I will be flying that next month. Looking forward to it too!
I helped a friend to book her ticket from GUA-SFO-GUA. She had to change her stay. She flew SFO-MIA-GUA and it was jam pack on DFW-GUA that's why she ended up via MIA.

For this reason, I say that the DFW service warrants a 757. On occasion, I see a CO 752 from IAH. That's how popular Guatemala is. It could use more capacity. Of course, i wouldn't see a AB6 anytime in DFW. I imagine maybe a 762 could one day replace the route if it were that popular

MAH4546 · Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:09 am

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 15):
It could use more capacity. Of course, i wouldn't see a AB6 anytime in DFW. I imagine maybe a 762 could one day replace the route if it were that popular

762s are all based in JFK. None fly to Dallas, and in their 3-class, low-density configuration (they have less seats than AA's 757s), they will never be used to Central America.

LAXdude1023 · Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
AA is actually bigger in O'Hare-Latin America than UA is, with more flights to Mexico and, soon, daily flights to Buenos Aires. UA operates a daily Sao Paulo flight, a weekly Liberia flight, and some primarily non-daily Mexican routes.

I decided to do a ORD-Latin American Comparrison for AA vs. UA simply because im bored as hell and curious:

AA:

MEX (daily)
CUN (frequency fluxuates based on season)
SJD (daily)
PVR (daily)
NAS (seasonal)
SJU (2x daily)
EZE (starting in Dec.)

UA:

MEX (daily)
SJD (Weekend only)
LIR (seasonal and Weekend only)
MBJ (weekend only)
CUN (daily)
CZM (starting in Dec. and weekend only)
STT (One way only-return through SJU)
PUJ (Seasonal and weekend only)
AUA (weekend only)
SXM (weekend only)
GRU (daily)

UA has more destinations, but AA seems to have more consistant frequency. After looking at the schuedules, both (especially UA) seem to be going after the low yield leisure travel. As for UA, I couldnt help but notice that they dont really serve any ORD-Carribiean destinations (except SJU) during hurricane season.

But its hard to really say which is bigger at ORD.

By the way, I used UA and AA's most recent downloadable time table, sorry if some frequencies are off.

luisde8cd · Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:20 am

Quoting PRAirbus (Thread starter):
Also, it seems that DFW-CCS is gone for good

DFW-CCS is still alive 1X weekly on Sundays 738. I flew this route 4-5 times between 98-99. Back then the route was operated by 757-200.

Saludos desde Monterrey,
Luis

MAH4546 · Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:43 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 18):

DFW-CCS is still alive 1X weekly on Sundays 738. I flew this route 4-5 times between 98-99. Back then the route was operated by 757-200.

The route is a horrible performer. Horrible is actually being generous. It's probably the worst performing route in AA's entire network. The only reason they keep one weekly flight is so that they can keep their Dallas-Caracas route authority, which would be difficult to get back from INAC.

luisde8cd · Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:54 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 19):
The only reason they keep one weekly flight is so that they can keep their Dallas-Caracas route authority, which would be difficult to get back from INAC.

Any chance they could swap that authority to get MIA-VLN-MIA rights? Another question... why is it performing so poorly? considering there are hundreds of destinations served nonstop from DFW which could be feeded with this flight. CO flies to nearby IAH and most of the traffic don't have IAH as final destination...

Saludos desde Monterrey,
Luis

elmothehobo · Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:18 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 17):

Not to be nitpick, but Aruba, St. Thomas, the Bahamas and St. Maarten aren't actually part of Latin America. Either way you are right though.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 18):
DFW-CCS is still alive 1X weekly on Sundays 738. I flew this route 4-5 times between 98-99. Back then the route was operated by 757-200.

DFW-Caracas is always in question. It was the last route to return after American reinstated flights after the social unrest in Venezuela, and with Exxon Mobile out of the country and others eventually following suit, the business traffic will disappear.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 13):
MBJ, AUA, CUN, SJO/LIR are other destinations that might work for AA from BOS.

Aruba and Cancun have been served before and would work on a weekend only basis. San Jose and Liberia can be flown via Miami, Dallas and New York so no need for that, and I would say Kingston would work for VFR traffic, though American dropped JFK-Kingston a few months back. You won't see Boston before New York.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 11):
ORD-PTY

Long and thin, limited business connections. They could onestop ORD-DFW-PTY, though that's the closest they'll get to a nonstop with American. Copa OTOH...

MAH4546 · Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:30 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 20):
Any chance they could swap that authority to get MIA-VLN-MIA rights?

I have no idea, but if that was possible, I think AA could go for it.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 20):
Another question... why is it performing so poorly?

Even though traffic between the US and Venezuela is actually at some of the highest levels ever, it is more centred on South Florida than ever before. US companies aren't doing much business with Venezuela these days. Most of the business traffic is going to/from Miami, while the VFR traffic is centered on Miami, New York/New Jersey, and Houston.

LAXdude1023 · Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:57 pm

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 21):
Not to be nitpick, but Aruba, St. Thomas, the Bahamas and St. Maarten aren't actually part of Latin America. Either way you are right though.

Sorry, I should have said Latin America and the Carribiean. Either way, I wouldnt say that either airlines has much of any kind of precence there from ORD. AA favors MIA, DFW and JFK, and UA favors IAD (thats putting it kindly since UA service to Latin America is a joke).

I really hope that DFW-PTY succeeds. DFW-Latin America is notorious for high loads and low yields (with the exception of the deep south america flights which do well for themselves). I would like to see more internationally from AA at DFW. Maybe more latin america, and one more flight to Europe and Asia. I think it will happen, but I dont think its a priority unfortunately.

2travel2know · Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:09 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 19):
The route is a horrible performer. Horrible is actually being generous. It's probably the worst performing route in AA's entire network. The only reason they keep one weekly flight is so that they can keep their Dallas-Caracas route authority, which would be difficult to get back from INAC.

Is that AA DFW-CCS flown red-eyes?

snaiks · Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
Effective 13 December 2007:

AA 2101 DFW 1645-2215 PTY WeThSaSu 738
AA 2102 PTY 1105-1445 DFW MoThFrSu 738

This hours are nasty, why did they set a flight arriving at 10 15 pm that there's no movement arround PTY. It should have been the other way around, leaving DFW at 1105, I tought my MIA days were over, but as it seems, i preffer AA flight that arrives PTY at 1pm,

2travel2know · Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:59 am

Quoting Snaiks (Reply 25):
This hours are nasty, why did they set a flight arriving at 10 15 pm that there's no movement arround PTY

Because immediate AA NRT-DFW connection and from other major markets?

kanebear · Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:24 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 17):
UA has more destinations, but AA seems to have more consistant frequency. After looking at the schuedules, both (especially UA) seem to be going after the low yield leisure travel. As for UA, I couldnt help but notice that they dont really serve any ORD-Carribiean destinations (except SJU) during hurricane season.

But its hard to really say which is bigger at ORD.

By the way, I used UA and AA's most recent downloadable time table, sorry if some frequencies are off.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if UA were larger to Latin America from ORD as that's where most of their LatAm service originates. AA has DFW and MIA.

SJOtoLIR · Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:32 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
Effective 13 December 2007:

AA 2101 DFW 1645-2215 PTY WeThSaSu 738
AA 2102 PTY 1105-1445 DFW MoThFrSu 738

Just as a reference model for nowadays:
.
From DFW to Central America:
DFW-GUA...........Departs: 17:45*
DFW-SJO............Departs: 17:40*
.
From Central America to DFW:
GUA-DFW.........Arrives: 13:00*
SJO-DFW..........Arrives: 15:15*
* Summer time
Regarding the schedules above, they will work similar for their destinations in Central America including the new service to PTY.

.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 24):
Is that AA DFW-CCS flown red-eyes?

AA2155........DFW 14:55...........CCS 21:10............Saturdays
AA2154........CCS 11:20............DFW 15:50...........Sundays
No red-eyes in such itinerary.

kl662 · Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:07 pm

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 3):
CO operates two daily PTY-IAH and vice versa.
It seems PTY-DFW may have a chance due IAH for CO works similar as DFW for AA.

I don't think you can compare CO's IAH-PTY to a potential DFW-PTY on AA given the close relationship between CO and CM.

MAH4546 · Fri Aug 31, 2007 6:05 pm

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 27):

I wouldn't be surprised at all if UA were larger to Latin America from ORD as that's where most of their LatAm service originates.

No, it doesn't. Most of UA's LatAm service originates in IAD.

SJOtoLIR · Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting KL662 (Reply 29):
I don't think you can compare CO's IAH-PTY to a potential DFW-PTY on AA given the close relationship between CO and CM.

I do not believe that CO flights covering PTY-IAH and vice versa could get a high amount of transit passenger feeding by CM through PTY, based in the partnership between these airlines.
Passengers from same Central America cities served by both CO and CM will doubtful fly to PTY in order to get at IAH: that mean a backtrack flight. By the way, most of those destinations are already operated as nonstop to IAH utilizing CO.
Some CM´s destinations in South America may find a niche but be aware that most of those points warrant a direct flight to IAH utilizing CO as well.
I keep my point referring that a huge destinations placed meanly in the USA could be easier reached through IAH and DFW utilizing CO or AA respectively for those passengers arriving immediately from PTY.
Regards.

kl662 · Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 31):
I do not believe that CO flights covering PTY-IAH and vice versa could get a high amount of transit passenger feeding by CM through PTY, based in the partnership between these airlines.

I agree that connections between CO and CM probably aren't exclusively what make CO's flights IAH-PTY work. However, my supposition is that their relationship -- shared frequent flier program, almost identical products, Presidents Club -- makes Continental an obvious choice for Panamanians and others in the region loyal to Copa for travel to the US when Copa's routes aren't convenient. It's this commonality on both ends of CO's IAH-PTY that an AA DFW-PTY lacks, IMHO.

2travel2know · Sat Sep 01, 2007 6:21 am

Quoting KL662 (Reply 32):
It's this commonality on both ends of CO's IAH-PTY that an AA DFW-PTY lacks, IMHO.

But there're plenty of AA lovers in PTY that will surely appreciate avoiding MIA if flying to Western and Central U.S. while earning precious AAdvantage miles.

luisca · Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:52 am

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 21):
Copa OTOH...

Look out for ORD, YYZ, SFO, VVI and BZE next year is what I hear. enough said for now.

MAH4546 · Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:23 am

To note, the DFW-PTY service will run seasonally through 7 April 2008.

2travel2know · Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 35):
To note, the DFW-PTY service will run seasonally through 7 April 2008.

Which means that it'll not be available for the high traffic summer months?

MAH4546 · Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:30 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 36):

Which means that it'll not be available for the high traffic summer months?

Traffic from the US to Panama peaks in the winter.

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