American will announce daily non-stop service between JFK and Barcelona and JFK and Milan this week, possibly as early as today. The flights will begin 2 May 2008 with 767-300ER service. In addition, American Airlines is considering linking Barcelona and Milan to Miami, and those flights would begin around November 2008 if approved (I wouldn't hold my breath for them to start that soon, though).

[Edited 2007-08-27 17:57:44]

Nevermind, PR is already out:

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/...es/prnewswire/LAM03527082007-1.htm

Routes announced already being discussed in this thread. AA JFK Dedication/Announcements(?) (by QQflyboy Aug 27 2007 in Civil Aviation)

It was about time for AA to take full advantage of their new terminal at JFK....let's hope they open more routes. Would be nice to get MXP/BCN out of MIA but MIA-Europe is usually a low-yield seasonal tourist market maybe except for LHR. I believe AA would open additional routes to Latin Am. out of MIA rather than to Europe. MIA airport will soon be more capacity constrained for AA when Terminal A shuts down for 2 years next NOV/07.

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 3): It was about time for AA to take full advantage of their new terminal at JFK....let's hope they open more routes. Would be nice to get MXP/BCN out of MIA but MIA-Europe is usually a low-yield seasonal tourist market maybe except for LHR.

I would see MIA-BCN being a distinct possibility, but not MXP. AZ has that covered and I dont think MIA could support two services to MXP. Maybe MIA-FCO could work. MIA has the least service to Europe of any of AA's big international Hubs (DFW, MIA, ORD, JFK), but in terms of growth I would expect that MIA recieve another service to Europe and BCN seems like a good choice. But I dont see them going crazy adding flights from MIA-Europe. One (maybe two) in the foreseable future. At some point I expect AA to add another destination to Europe from DFW as well (probably MAD).

One thing that does catch my attention is that MIA and DFW both seem to have specific European service, such as MIA-MAD which is the only gateway AA serves MAD from, and DFW-FRA which is appearently important enough to recieve one of AA's prized 777's.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 4): such as MIA-MAD which is the only gateway AA serves MAD from

Remember they codeshare with IB on MAD-JFK and MAD-ORD

Quoting MAH4546 (Thread starter): The flights will begin 2 May 2008 with 767-300ER service

From where are they getting the a/c's?

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 5): Remember they codeshare with IB on MAD-JFK and MAD-ORD

Will AA codeshare with IB on their new MAD-BOS services; makes sense considering that AA has a small operation there.

Rob!   

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 5): Remember they codeshare with IB on MAD-JFK and MAD-ORD

But they also codeshare from MIA-MAD on IB. The route has a very high demand so AA can Codeshare and use its own metal from MIA-MAD and it makes sense.

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 3): Would be nice to get MXP/BCN out of MIA but MIA-Europe is usually a low-yield seasonal tourist market maybe except for LHR

That isn't entirely true. Miami - Southern Europe has much higher yield than Miami-Northern Europe. There are numerous business and cultural connections between Latin America, Miami and Spain/Portugal/Italy. Miami is well located for European businesses to open offices serving the region.

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 3): I believe AA would open additional routes to Latin Am. out of MIA rather than to Europe.

We'll see both. As Mark has said here before American is looking to add a second daily Miami-Heathrow flight, which would give it four daily flights to Europe, the same number that Dallas will have on American come 2008.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 4): I would see MIA-BCN being a distinct possibility, but not MXP.

Both are distinct possibilities. With all of Alitalia's problems, who knows if they will keep the Miami flight. Should Alitalia withdraw its Miami flight, it would be foolish for American to not fill in the void, particularly with the connections American offers through Miami to Latin America.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 4): Maybe MIA-FCO could work.

Rome-Miami would be a lower yielding market. Though Rome is the capital, beyond that there are few links beyond tourist traffic. The business with the meaningful connections is in Milan.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 4): MIA has the least service to Europe of any of AA's big international Hubs (DFW, MIA, ORD, JFK), but in terms of growth I would expect that MIA recieve another service to Europe and BCN seems like a good choice.

That will change. Dallas will drop to four daily flights with Dallas-Zürich being cut, leaving two daily flights to London, one to Paris and one to Frankfurt.

Miami on the other hand will probably get an additional Heathrow flight and more flights to Madrid once ATI is granted to American and Iberia, along with the long rumored service to Brussels.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 8): That will change. Dallas will drop to four daily flights with Dallas-Zürich being cut, leaving two daily flights to London, one to Paris and one to Frankfurt. Miami on the other hand will probably get an additional Heathrow flight and more flights to Madrid once ATI is granted to American and Iberia, along with the long rumored service to Brussels.

Im sure of that. I could see MIA getting service to BCN, maybe BRU, and also additional flights to LHR and MAD. I think DFW will probably get service to MAD at some point, but Im not sure when. Other than MAD (and possibly BRU) I cant think of a destination in Europe that would be viable for AA with DFW. I know the flights that DFW currently has to Europe preform very well, but im not sure how many more would.

Schedule out:


AA152 JFK1905 - 0910+1BCN
AA151 BCN1130 - 1405JFK

AA198 JFK1745 - 0810+1MXP
AA199 MXP1035 - 1340JFK

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 10): Schedule out: AA152 JFK1905 - 0910+1BCN AA151 BCN1130 - 1405JFK AA198 JFK1745 - 0810+1MXP AA199 MXP1035 - 1340JFK

Oh Boy.....2 more departures to add to the JFK evening rush........

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 5): From where are they getting the a/c's?

We might see AA downgrade B763 service on the Hawaii route to B757's.

Drew

There's also a second frequency to STN.

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 3): Would be nice to get MXP/BCN out of MIA but MIA-Europe is usually a low-yield seasonal tourist market maybe except for LHR.

No, it isn't. Miami-Northern Europe (Germany, the Netherlands, Scandanavia, etc.) is typically low yielding tourist traffic. Miami-Southern Europe, especially to Italy and Spain, is the complete opposite. There is a lot of high-yielding business traffic, as South Florida's business ties to Europe are strongest with Spain and Italy.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 4): I would see MIA-BCN being a distinct possibility, but not MXP. AZ has that covered and I dont think MIA could support two services to MXP. Maybe MIA-FCO could work.

Agreed. I think AA would have a difficult time stealing business traffic away from Alitalia, especially because most of the traffic is Italy-originating. The only way I imagine AA actually flying MIA-MXP is if Alitalia actually were to go under, which I don't see happening.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 4): I would expect that MIA recieve another service to Europe and BCN seems like a good choice.

My money is on MIA-BCN by summer 2009. The talk of it has really escalated lately, along with either upgrading MIA-MAD to a 772 or adding a second daily MIA-MAD. With IB/AA soon to have ATI, they will be taking huge advantage of these two large hubs. By 2010-11 timeframe, I could easily imagine five daily Miami-Spain hubs, four to Madrid (2x AA/2x IB) and one to Barcelona.

Quoting ElmoTheHobo (Reply 8): Rome-Miami would be a lower yielding market. Though Rome is the capital, beyond that there are few links beyond tourist traffic. The business with the meaningful connections is in Milan.

Correct, the business connections are to Milan. What AA could tap into with Miami-Rome is Rome-Latin America traffic. Rome is one of the largest South America-Europe travel markets (and, if I am not mistaken, it is the second largest after Madrid when you don't include Brazil).

Quoting KL808 (Reply 12): We might see AA downgrade B763 service on the Hawaii route to B757's.

We will, most likely. Only a daily 763 each on DFW-HNL, DFW-OGG, and ORD-HNL is the plan. Also, we will see 763s flying to Heathrow, which will increase aircraft usage flexibility. We are also seeing more daylight flights that are increasing utilization. This winter, for example, MIA-GRU will have a daylight 772 flight.

Are these routes planned to be seasonal or year round, with winter reductions in frequencies? I don't believe either will last. Unless AA is betting on AZ's collapse, there is significant capacity in the JFK-MXP market, with AZ and DL, and CO and AZ from EWR. As for BCN, Delta fly it once daily with a 763. I think it is to plug the cruise market from BCN. If the US economy turns sour, you can bet AA will pull the plug on these routes.

AA still does have some holes in the JFK-Europe market, namely FRA, AMS, and MAN - I'm guessing they don't currently fly to these cities due to them already being well served by DL, CO, and the Europe carriers. But adding these routes, in addition to the new BCN, MXP, and 2-daily STN routes is a good start to making JFK a true European gateway airport for AA along w/ ORD. Glad to see AA has finally awakened after resting on its laurels while DL expanded their JFK-Europe operation.

Hmm, going head to head with Delta...

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14): Correct, the business connections are to Milan. What AA could tap into with Miami-Rome is Rome-Latin America traffic. Rome is one of the largest South America-Europe travel markets (and, if I am not mistaken, it is the second largest after Madrid when you don't include Brazil).

It will be tough for AA or MIA to compete for in transit traffic to Europe given very real issue of growing disdain of latin Americna and Europena travelers for the hassles of transiting the US and especially MIA as a very inconvenient airport.

Most major latin American cities already either have direct service to Italy or easy connections via European or even Canadian carriers.

Latin american transit traffic via US to Europe or Asia will be a dying market in years to come.

Quoting 747fan (Reply 16): AA still does have some holes in the JFK-Europe market, namely FRA, AMS, and MAN -

At least in the case of AMS, AA is the only US legacy that doesn't serve it. And that's probably ok, given NW's significant number of flights there, as well as the existing competition at AA hubs (for instance, UA and KL at ORD, DL/CO/KL at NYC, etc.).

As mentioned, AA has tried and failed on JFK-FRA multiple times before.

In the case of MAN, the market is well-covered by DL, CO, and BA.

Quoting CayMan (Reply 18): Latin american transit traffic via US to Europe or Asia will be a dying market in years to come.

I think you will be shown to be wrong. There are still many, many O&Ds that are growing very fast and there simply won't be the direct flights to connect them. The US airlines have very well developed hub and spoke systems and they are very well designed to compete for international flow traffic. AA, CO, and DL all carry significant amounts of traffic via DFW, IAH, and ATL respectively and the amount is growing, not shrinking. Relaxation of visa controls will only help US carriers.

Quoting CayMan (Reply 18): It will be tough for AA or MIA to compete for in transit traffic to Europe given very real issue of growing disdain of latin Americna and Europena travelers for the hassles of transiting the US and especially MIA as a very inconvenient airport. Most major latin American cities already either have direct service to Italy or easy connections via European or even Canadian carriers. Latin american transit traffic via US to Europe or Asia will be a dying market in years to come.

I agree with you on this one. This of course, will hurt MIA and their service to Europe.

Quoting CayMan (Reply 18): It will be tough for AA or MIA to compete for in transit traffic to Europe given very real issue of growing disdain of latin Americna and Europena travelers for the hassles of transiting the US and especially MIA as a very inconvenient airport.

And transiting through CCS is a better option? I know you didn't limit it to Venezuela, but with the exception of PTY and maybe MEX, I don't think Latin American airports are set up to handle connecting traffic as US airports are (nor do I see CM, MX or AM becoming big European players). There is some non-stop service from a few Latin American airports, but nowhere near the volume that is available from the US, and except for a few keys airports, MAD, CDG, LHR, FCO, FRA, the traffic to support service to secondary airports just isn't there.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 20): I think you will be shown to be wrong. There are still many, many O&Ds that are growing very fast and there simply won't be the direct flights to connect them. The US airlines have very well developed hub and spoke systems and they are very well designed to compete for international flow traffic. AA, CO, and DL all carry significant amounts of traffic via DFW, IAH, and ATL respectively and the amount is growing, not shrinking. Relaxation of visa controls will only help US carriers.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 21): I agree with you on this one. This of course, will hurt MIA and their service to Europe.

I personally think that traffic to Asia from Latin America will continue to grow and go through the US. ATL, DFW, IAH, and NYC are the prefered transit points. Not to mention ATL, DFW, and IAH are the fastest growing areas of the United States and traffic from these areas is increasing every year to all destinations. While this isnt the only factor it doesnt hurt. I for one cant wait to see more Texas-Asia nonstop service.

As for traffic from Latin America to Europe I think it will either remain the same or slowly decrease from larger markets that have nonstop options to Europe. As for smaller markets with service to MIA, MIA still remains a very viable option. However I dont think that MIA will have much trouble filling their planes and making money for markets in Southern Europe.

Quoting CayMan (Reply 18): It will be tough for AA or MIA to compete for in transit traffic to Europe given very real issue of growing disdain of latin Americna and Europena travelers for the hassles of transiting the US and especially MIA as a very inconvenient airport.

In transit traffic is actually up quite a bit in the past two years, while Argentina and Brazil, once they get passports up to US standards, now qualify for transit without visa.

Also, another place where planes are coming from is possibly Boston. While I have not heard anything regarding the official status, given this announcement and AA's lack of long-haul aircraft, it might be safe to assume Boston-Paris is gone (then again, we hear this often). Boston-Manchester might not resume, which frees up a 757 that can take a 763s place somewhere. Given the poor performance of BOS-MAN as of late, it would make sense for it to end.

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 15): Are these routes planned to be seasonal or year round, with winter reductions in frequencies? I don't believe either will last. Unless AA is betting on AZ's collapse, there is significant capacity in the JFK-MXP market, with AZ and DL, and CO and AZ from EWR. As for BCN, Delta fly it once daily with a 763. I think it is to plug the cruise market from BCN. If the US economy turns sour, you can bet AA will pull the plug on these routes.

Always such a positive light. I bet if CO announced something similar you would not be making such pessimistic remarks.

American announced it would fly JFK-BCN several years ago, when it launched seasonal nonstop JFK-FCO service. The route never materialized.

I hope AA can make it work, but it does have tough competition.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 24): Also, another place where planes are coming from is possibly Boston.

I agree. I think BOS-Europe services will be down to BOS-LHR 10x or so a week when AA is through with it. I think BOS-CDG will be gone before too long. More than anything I would love to see DFW get some benefit from it all.

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 26): I hope AA can make it work, but it does have tough competition.

We wont know until the route goes on for a bit. AA wont let it keep on for long if it doesnt preform well, but I think these routes have a very good chance of success.

Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 26): American announced it would fly JFK-BCN several years ago, when it launched seasonal nonstop JFK-FCO service. The route never materialized.

Neither did NW's SEA-KIX, DL's BOS-FCO, and a bunch of other routes. It was announced at a time when long-haul traffic had a significant decrease in demand. While AA has tough competition, they have their Iberia partnership, which gives them a significant one-up over CO and DL.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 28): Neither did NW's SEA-KIX, DL's BOS-FCO, and a bunch of other routes. It was announced at a time when long-haul traffic had a significant decrease in demand. While AA has tough competition, they have their Iberia partnership, which gives them a significant one-up over CO and DL.

No doubt AA has better Europe backing thanks to IB. But both CO and DL have larger networks out of NYC than does AA. So from a domestic standpoint, they beat AA.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 27): I agree. I think BOS-Europe services will be down to BOS-LHR 10x or so a week when AA is through with it. I think BOS-CDG will be gone before too long. More than anything I would love to see DFW get some benefit from it all.

I doubt AA will comepletely cutoff BOS-Europe service. BOS is still a top 5 gateway to Europe and we also saw a solid growth clip for May, June, and July for Europe and Middle East passengers. Granted that is seasonal, it still says something. Also, with IB having added 5 x weekly BOS-MAD flights, BOS is sure to see growth for the rest of the year. BOS-CDG has been mentioned beign cut for the last few years but continues to comeback for its 6 month run. BOS-MAN is a nice niche market and I believe that BOS is one of the few martkets that can sustain MAN service, or has the local demand for it.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 29): No doubt AA has better Europe backing thanks to IB. But both CO and DL have larger networks out of NYC than does AA. So from a domestic standpoint, they beat AA.

AA carries a significant amount more traffic into/out of New York City than Delta does. They are the largest airline at LaGuardia, the second largest airline at Newark, and are busier than Delta out of JFK. Do CO and DL provide a larger variety of feed via EWR and JFK, respectively? Yes, indeed. Does it nessecarily matter in such an O&D driven market? No. And is the feed provided by flying routes like EWR-GRR and JFK-BTV significant to trans-Atlantic operations? Not really. AA has all the major, and many mid-sized, markets covered out of JFK.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 29): I doubt AA will comepletely cutoff BOS-Europe service.

Correct. Boston-Heathrow will definitely not be cut.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 29): BOS-MAN is a nice niche market

A niche market that is low-yielding and pretty much exclusively British tourists coming to Boston. The route is poor yielding.

The inevitable discontinuation of Boston-Paris and Boston-Manchester will come by AA's "year-round or lose it" mentality which is being pretty widely used. If a route can't be supported year-round, it's gone (the major exception being ski and Alaska routes). From this we have seen DFW-ZRH (poor winter performer), ORD-GLA, ORD-OGG, STL-PVR, BOS-CUN, BOS-SNN, ORD-SNN, ORD-FPO and others cut. Whereareas we have seen routes like MIA-MVD, JFK-FCO, DFW-EGE and ORD-FCO go year-round. AA does not want to deal with seasonal routes and especially doesn't like seasonal stations.

[Edited 2007-08-28 06:28:13]

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 4): DFW-FRA which is appearently important enough to recieve one of AA's prized 777's.

And rightfully so! As a AA ramper who has worked that flight many a time, 777's are the only a/c that could/would work on that route. The flight goes out full or close to full everyday + the amount of freight and military mail that comes and goes is ridiculously high. A 767 has the legs for it, just not the cargo capacity.

I disagree with the MIA-MXP comments. I don't think it's so crazy. Remember that Miami is becoming less and less seasonal these days with Europeans. Trust me, I deal with the AZ flights and as has been pointed out by many (including Mark) - AZ 636/637 is constantly going out with insane prices and loads. The high Euro has made Miami an attractive destination with the Italians these days. I think AA could really dent AZ in MIA with a bit of competition and slightly lower fares than AZ. Italians are NOT happy with all the AZ mess, and the service isn't any better than AA either.

In winter, Costa has a hard time getting seats on AZ and frequently is stuck with connecting pax thru bad weather cities and often misconnecting passengers. That costs the cruise line BIG bucks. Remember in winter Costa is basing 3 ships in South Florida. That's alot of Italian passengers to get to Miami. Cruise line pax might pay more for direct flights. Of course, in summer time, when the ships are gone, VFR and leisure travel takes over.

I think if AA is looking to expand Europe from MIA, MXP and BCN and FCO are probably where AA should go.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 29): I doubt AA will comepletely cutoff BOS-Europe service.

I dont think AA will completely cut of BOS-Europe services. What I said was that I think it will come to a point where AA is flying BOS-LHR 10-14x a week, but thats about it. I think its only a matter of time before CDG and MAN are cut. LHR isnt going anywhere.

Quoting N276AASTT (Reply 31): And rightfully so! As a AA ramper who has worked that flight many a time, 777's are the only a/c that could/would work on that route. The flight goes out full or close to full everyday + the amount of freight and military mail that comes and goes is ridiculously high. A 767 has the legs for it, just not the cargo capacity.

Being that DFW-FRA is the only non-LON route from the US-Europe that get a 777, I would conclude 3 things:

1) Its profitable
2) It has high loads in all three classes
3) It carries a good amount of Cargo.

Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 32): I disagree with the MIA-MXP comments. I don't think it's so crazy. Remember that Miami is becoming less and less seasonal these days with Europeans.

Its not crazy, however I dont think AA will start it unless AZ pulls out. If AZ does pull out, I dont think AA will waste much time getting on it.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 30): ORD-GLA, ORD-OGG, STL-PVR, BOS-CUN, BOS-SNN, ORD-SNN, ORD-FPO and others cut.

Most of these routes are low yielding Vacation routes. Its no wonder AA cut them. As for DFW-ZRH, its quite a shame. It was a very profitable route when AA and LX codeshared. AA does need to look into another route from DFW-Europe that can fill the void. DFW-MAD would probably be the best choice. I know DFW-MAD was tried in the past, but the DFW market is changing and growing very fast. I think in the near future it could work. As for MAD, I think AA should put a 777 on MIA-MAD and fly DFW-MAD on a 767. If DFW-ZRH could work so well with the right Codeshare and connection opprotunities, DFW-MAD could as well given the same circumstances.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 24): while Argentina and Brazil, once they get passports up to US standards, now qualify for transit without visa.

I'm not aware of the posibility of waiving visa requirements only for transit pax's

So what do you mean? visa waiver for Brazil and Argentina?   

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 23): I personally think that traffic to Asia from Latin America will continue to grow and go through the US

And also go through Europe as Air China and Emirates out of GRU.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 33): Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 32): I disagree with the MIA-MXP comments. I don't think it's so crazy. Remember that Miami is becoming less and less seasonal these days with Europeans. Its not crazy, however I dont think AA will start it unless AZ pulls out. If AZ does pull out, I dont think AA will waste much time getting on it.

I agree, I don't think AA will start it as long as Alitalia pulls out, and given how Miami-Milan is one of few profitable routes in Alitalia's long-haul network, that isn't happening until Alitalia goes under. I think if AA ever does Miami-Italy, it will be Miami-Rome.

Good for BCN..

With this flight Bcn will have direct Fligths to EWR with CO, PHL with US and JFK and ATL with DL if I'm not wrong. At least we don't have to pass through Madrid and IB in order to flight to the States!!

I wonder if 3 flights a day out of BCN to NYC is too much for the BCN market...although much of the traffic won´t be O&D, I think we might see overcapacity here. It would not suprise me at all if we see ( specially in winter ) an equipment change from AA and DL to a 757. Otherwise some of the carriers ( AA, CO and DL ) will have difficult times in BCN.

rgds

SQ773

Quoting Titiserra (Reply 36): At least we don't have to pass through Madrid and IB in order to flight to the States!!

You don't have to. You can go with Delta to JFK and ATL, Continental to EWR, US airways to PHL and via CDG, AMS, LHR, LGW, BRU, FRA, MUC with several connection posibilities.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 29): No doubt AA has better Europe backing thanks to IB.

I do doubt they have any help with IB as by may 2008 there will be little Iberia from BCN. There will probably only be Air Shuttle service with no connecting passengers, LHR because of IB-BA JSA and several domestic destinations served by franchise Air Nostrum.

The route has to stand by itself with maybe some connections on the JFK side.

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 37): I wonder if 3 flights a day out of BCN to NYC is too much for the BCN market...although much of the traffic won´t be O&D, I think we might see overcapacity here. It would not suprise me at all if we see ( specially in winter ) an equipment change from AA and DL to a 757. Otherwise some of the carriers ( AA, CO and DL ) will have difficult times in BCN.

It's important to remember that the BCN market (like the entire Spanish aviation market) is growing ... fast. BCN has seen lots and lots of new air service just in the last 18 months, and obviously the streak isn't over yet.

Secondly, as others have mentioned, AA may well end up quite favorably on this route because of the huge benefit they'll get from Iberia. Not only will Iberia feed on the BCN end of the route help in some smaller Spanish markets and a few European markets (once the two get ATI next year), but, even more importantly, Iberia's base of probably several million frequent flyers in Catalonia area all now going to have a miles-earning nonstop option to the U.S. for the first time since Iberia ended their own BCN-JFK 767 nonstop years ago. Those people are really going to help fill that plane.

That being said, I agree with you that it is quite possible that if this route does indeed end up launching (unlike the first time it was announced), I do suspect that - at least at first - it will probably operate on a reduced schedule during the winter months (probably 5x weekly instead of daily) or be downgraded to a 757. However, I tend to think that they won't downgrade it because they know that AA's 757 product - particularly in the premium cabins - is disastrously lacking at the moment.

AA is dropping DFW-ZRH, there is one extra plane. I can guarantee it's coming form a Hawaii Run. Also, dont they use a 763 from LAX to SJU?? I suspect that service goes to a 757. Just my thoughts as to where the planes are coming from.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 39): Iberia's base of probably several million frequent flyers in Catalonia area all now going to have a miles-earning nonstop option to the U.S. for the first time since Iberia ended their own BCN-JFK 767 nonstop years ago. Those people are really going to help fill that plane

That is the fact that will lift this flight over their competitors (CO,DL), I can say 99% of the people who uses MAD-BCN shuttle are IB frequent flyers.

Quite interesting to see if IB will upgrade to 2xdaily MAD-JFK next summer? How much will they suffer with AA's JFK-BCN? Personally I'd rather fly IB long haul J-product than any american carrier, although have to recognize the option of a non-stop can easily outweight a better product.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 20): think you will be shown to be wrong. There are still many, many O&Ds that are growing very fast and there simply won't be the direct flights to connect them. The US airlines have very well developed hub and spoke systems and they are very well designed to compete for international flow traffic. AA, CO, and DL all carry significant amounts of traffic via DFW, IAH, and ATL respectively and the amount is growing, not shrinking. Relaxation of visa controls will only help US carriers.

Why would you think there will be any move to "relax" visa controls. In fact all signs point to ever tightening visa controls. That is the very problem US airlines face for their transit operations from latin america to other points. You mention "growing" numbers without citing any source. That said, it would be interesting to see relative growth of latin america origin transit traffic via US, relative to growth in traffic in general. Any 'growth" statistic you cite that is not relative to industry is irrlelevant, as pax traffic has surged globaly of course you would expect an actual increase in transit numbers.

Quoting Ualcsr (Reply 22): And transiting through CCS is a better option? I know you didn't limit it to Venezuela, but with the exception of PTY and maybe MEX, I don't think Latin American airports are set up to handle connecting traffic as US airports are (nor do I see CM, MX or AM becoming big European players). There is some non-stop service from a few Latin American airports, but nowhere near the volume that is available from the US, and except for a few keys airports, MAD, CDG, LHR, FCO, FRA, the traffic to support service to secondary airports just isn't there.

I am not sure why you mention CCS, I did not. I certainly did not suggest CCS as a transit point, or any other latin american airport. Mind you, that said, using CCS as an example, AF, AZ, LH, IB, TAP and others all have a robust presence in CCS.

But the bigger point was not that latin american travelers would transit through other latin am airports, but rather they would fly the vastly improving direct network (with direct non-stop flights to Europe)--take CCS for example---direct service to CDG, FRA, MAD, MXP, LIS and others. Many other latin american airports have substantial connectivity as well. So pax originating in Vzla can fly direclty to many european airports, and/or transit through those European airports on a European carrier.

It is also noteworthy that AC is clearly aware of the growing dynamic of demand to avoid MIA and US transit in general from latin America. Take GRU YYZ and YYZ NRT, a well utilizied transit connection, in large part because of growing numbers of Brazilians and other pax who do not wish to be subjected to invasive US transit procedures. AC is trying to create sterile transit areas in their YYZ hub and if the Cdn govt can be convinced to amend the rules such that latin american travelers in transit through Canada would not require a visa this will represent a sigificant growrth opportunity for AC.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am not crticizing US security and immigration in any way, lest anyone decide to jump all over me for that. On the contrary, I understand and appreciate why it is what it is, and that is very unfortunate that the US should have to face such tigh security procedures because of certain lunatic elements around the world that would do it (and other western nations) harm. So I am not debating the appropriateness of US transit rules, but simply stating that it is what it is and it will inevitably result in a siginifcant drop in competitive position of US hubs to transit foreign travelers. There is no room for debate on this point it is fact, talk to any rael industry person and you will see the extent to which large numbers of pax, and especially higher yielding business pax, will go out of their way to avoid US transit..

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 33): Being that DFW-FRA is the only non-LON route from the US-Europe that get a 777, I would conclude 3 things: 1) Its profitable 2) It has high loads in all three classes 3) It carries a good amount of Cargo.

I know FRA is a major business destination in Europe, but what is it that makes the flight successful enough to warrant the pax and cargo capacity of a 777? After all, LH also flies an A340 to DFW daily so there are plenty of seats for the DFW-FRA market. FRA isn't nearly as big of a city or tourist attraction as Paris, London, Rome, etc. or even Berlin in Germany so could it be military traffic and cargo between the US and Germany?

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 28): Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 26): American announced it would fly JFK-BCN several years ago, when it launched seasonal nonstop JFK-FCO service. The route never materialized. Neither did NW's SEA-KIX, DL's BOS-FCO, and a bunch of other routes.

NW did fly SEA-KIX for several years in the late 1990s. The flight continued on to either KUL or KHH, depending on the day. It was discontinued in 2001, at the same time NW dropped LAX-KIX-MNL.

Quoting CayMan (Reply 42): Why would you think there will be any move to "relax" visa controls. In fact all signs point to ever tightening visa controls.

No, they don't. In fact, effective immediately, 12 new countries, including Argentina, Brazil, and Uruguay, qualify for visa waivers, effective them implementing passports up to US standards.

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 44): NW did fly SEA-KIX for several years in the late 1990s. The flight continued on to either KUL or KHH, depending on the day. It was discontinued in 2001, at the same time NW dropped LAX-KIX-MNL.

Yes, I realize that. However, they re-announced the service to start in summer 2003, and it never did.

Quoting 747fan (Reply 43):
FRA isn't nearly as big of a city or tourist attraction as Paris, London, Rome, etc. or even Berlin in Germany so could it be military traffic and cargo between the US and Germany?

Frankfurt is huge in banking and business. The Frankfurt Stock Exchanges is one of the three largest stock markets in the world. FRA is home to several large corporations, such as Deutsch Bank, one of the largest banks in Europe. Its also the largest city in a metro region of 5 million. FRA is also one of Europe's busiest airports.

I wouldn't be too surprised if AA announced MUC, or TXL, however, outside of that, I can't think of anywhere else in Europe that fits AA's business model of daily frequencies, or high levels of business travels.

[Edited 2007-08-28 18:25:34]

Quoting Commavia (Reply 39): Not only will Iberia feed on the BCN end of the route help in some smaller Spanish markets and a few European markets

Will there be any connections onto Click Air because IB mainline destinations from BCN are in single figures now (although there is Air Nostrum too however)

Quoting DL777LAX (Reply 46): Frankfurt is huge in banking and business. The Frankfurt Stock Exchanges is one of the three largest stock markets in the world. FRA is home to several large corporations, such as Deutsch Bank, one of the largest banks in Europe. Its also the largest city in a metro region of 5 million. FRA is also one of Europe's busiest airports.

The question remains though, what is it about DFW-FRA (more so than a dozen other international city pairs) that AA finds appealing enough to use one of their prized 777's?

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 48): The question remains though, what is it about DFW-FRA (more so than a dozen other international city pairs) that AA finds appealing enough to use one of their prized 777's?

The strangest of routes can make the most money. I remember hearing that LOS-LHR for example is one of BA's most profitable routes. Its bizarre. I bet AA has a number of contracts for that route. Its the same reason why EK uses a 345 to ZRH, contracts. AA carries alot of contracts. Its one of the reasons why they have kept LGW-RDU.