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bobnwa
Posts: 4514
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:50 am

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 47):
Im not extremely well read into their financial state. I do know that they turned a profit in 2006 and are on track to trun a profit this year.

Not disputing that CO made a profit in 2006 and will this year but they have debt running in the billions along with all the other legacy carries. I believe AA and DL have the highest but they all have debt in the billions which are more than their assets.

If you owe more money than your net worth you are not in the black.
 
letsgetwet
Posts: 490
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:08 pm

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:02 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 50):

There are not many (maybe none) large carriers with international routes that are not heavily leaveraged. The difference between the US and many foreign carriers, is that many of the foreign carriers are or were heavily subsidised by their respective governments. ]
 
wingnut767
Posts: 762
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:50 am

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 49):
Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 43):
They all have extremely high debt, including CO.

At the last earnings conference, CO's CFO said that CO is highly leveraged, but that it has always been highly leveraged. He gave the impression that he thinks CO is better at managing debt than other carriers. Time will tell.



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 50):
Quoting Bok269 (Reply 47):
Im not extremely well read into their financial state. I do know that they turned a profit in 2006 and are on track to trun a profit this year.

Not disputing that CO made a profit in 2006 and will this year but they have debt running in the billions along with all the other legacy carries. I believe AA and DL have the highest but they all have debt in the billions which are more than their assets.

If you owe more money than your net worth you are not in the black

I have to agree with Bobnwa

CAL's debt to equity ratio indicates that it has been more aggressive with using debt to finance growth than 90% of its peers in the Airline industry. But The Return on Equity for CAL shows that it is able to reinvest its earnings more efficiently than 90% of its competitors in the Airline industry. While in good shape compared to most Carrier's they still have a heavy dept load. And with 35 787's on order I do not see that debt going down soon.
Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
TrvlnMan
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:53 pm

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:41 am

Can we get back on the topic please??? Geez! everything turns into a financial debate. What about the fleet?
 
wingnut767
Posts: 762
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:50 am

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:58 am

Quoting TrvlnMan (Reply 53):
Can we get back on the topic please??? Geez! everything turns into a financial debate. What about the fleet?

It case you did not notice it takes money to modernize a fleet. How many planes has UAL or AA ordered in the last five years. And when you say can "we" get back to topic I do not see any posts by you on the post so far except to whine about the money issue....
Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
TrvlnMan
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:53 pm

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:07 am

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 54):
It case you did not notice it takes money to modernize a fleet. How many planes has UAL or AA ordered in the last five years. And when you say can "we" get back to topic I do not see any posts by you on the post so far except to whine about the money issue....

"We" is a genrealization.... many people don't post, but are interested in the topic - this one has gotten off track as many do. You're right, I haven't posted anything because I don't have anything to say about the fleet plan - as I read this, neither do many others. Point is, it isn't a post about CO's financial situation.... There's a big difference between whining and stating facts. So there.
 
letsgetwet
Posts: 490
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 12:08 pm

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:08 am

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 54):
It case you did not notice it takes money to modernize a fleet. How many planes has UAL or AA ordered in the last five years

CO has, and will continue to have, one of the most modern fleets in the world. This is why they are highly leveraged. Apparently they are not having any problems financing this fleet, because they have earned the respect of the creditors.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15100
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:09 am

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 27):
After AA went with the A300, Boeing realized that it has to stay competitive to keep its longtime loyal customers.

How exactly was AA a longtime loyal customer?

They were flying a large fleet of MD80s and DC10s at the time. They were also flying 727s and 757s and some 767s, but chose the A300s rather than more 767s (bad choice). They also chose the F100 over the 735 (another questionable move). AA wasn't a "loyal" Boeing customer, just one after the best deal, like they should be.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1983
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:10 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 16):
New 767-200ERs built today still have the same technology used in the first one in 1984. So, technically, 767-200ERs are over 23 years old.

Not entirely true. The CO 762ER's have upgraded avionics, a 764 glass cockpit and interior, upgraded engines, and an increased MGTOW to 395,000 lbs.

http://sec.edgar-online.com/2001/07/...0000950123-01-504308/Section28.asp

Quoting STT757 (Reply 28):
737-900ERs will do Domestic routes, Trans-Cons from EWR to the West Coast and IAH to Latin America.

So essentially all CO domestic flights in the lower 48 will be some variant of the 737 family? How exciting!  sarcastic 

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 57):
How exactly was AA a longtime loyal customer?

True, AA's loyalty status didn't come until the large 772ER/738 orders. At the time of the A300 order, AA was mostly a McDonnell Douglas customer. This continued into the early-mid 90's with the MD-11 and MD-83 deliveries. AA never ordered 737 classics and only operated some ex AirCal birds briefly. IMO, the MD-87 could have been a better fit over the F100.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
MMEPHX
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:54 am

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:24 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 17):
can i get a link for that 20% because i swore i look on boeing.com and it said 10% but i could be wrong

from Boeing....

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/787family/787-8prod.html
 
bok269
Posts: 1568
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 10:19 am

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:29 am

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 52):

I have to agree with Bobnwa

CAL's debt to equity ratio indicates that it has been more aggressive with using debt to finance growth than 90% of its peers in the Airline industry. But The Return on Equity for CAL shows that it is able to reinvest its earnings more efficiently than 90% of its competitors in the Airline industry. While in good shape compared to most Carrier's they still have a heavy dept load. And with 35 787's on order I do not see that debt going down soon.

Bobnwa and Wingnut, thanks for clearing that up for me.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 57):

How exactly was AA a longtime loyal customer?

They were flying a large fleet of MD80s and DC10s at the time. They were also flying 727s and 757s and some 767s, but chose the A300s rather than more 767s (bad choice). They also chose the F100 over the 735 (another questionable move). AA wasn't a "loyal" Boeing customer, just one after the best deal, like they should be.

Bad wording perhaps on my part. What I should have said was that Boeing learned they couldn't take the business from the American Carriers for granted.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
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STT757
Posts: 14128
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:14 am

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:42 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 58):
So essentially all CO domestic flights in the lower 48 will be some variant of the 737 family? How exciting!

Plus 757-300s from EWR, CLE and IAH and 757-200s from EWR to FLL, TPA, PBI, MCO, RSW, LAX, LAS, IAH, SFO.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15100
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:05 am

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 60):
What I should have said was that Boeing learned they couldn't take the business from the American Carriers for granted.

That makes more sense. Or more to the point, that USA carriers would not feel obligated to buy American (Lockheed, MD, BCA), as many had turned around and bought the Fokker, BAe and Airbus products in the 80s.

Boeing and MD both learned a lesson when AA went Fokker/Airbus, UA went A320, CO ordered the A340, etc.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
bok269
Posts: 1568
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 10:19 am

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:25 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 62):
Boeing and MD both learned a lesson when AA went Fokker/Airbus, UA went A320, CO ordered the A340, etc.

Im pretty sure AA also had slots on the A340/330 but pulled away and went with the 767.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4322
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:41 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 61):
Plus 757-300s from EWR, CLE and IAH and 757-200s from EWR to FLL, TPA, PBI, MCO, RSW, LAX, LAS, IAH, SFO.

Also the hub to hub (IAH/EWR) flights of the widebodies to reroute them (and occasional upgrade of equipment to various cities).

Just smart (and economical) planning of aircraft (especially doing the best with what you have) usage.
You can't cure stupid
 
toxtethogrady
Posts: 1861
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:18 am

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 12):
I would see the 762's opening thinner routes in Eastern Europe that the 752 can't reach and/or has better cargo potential.

I'd like to see more of them in Latin America - out of Houston. CO management has become too NY-centric, when Latin America is their biggest moneymaker.

Also, CO needs to find a way to add some 70 and 90-seaters to the fleet. Too bad they're unwilling to cut a deal with their pilots to make it happen.
 
toxtethogrady
Posts: 1861
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:21 am

Quoting Kaitak744 (Reply 16):

CO's 767-200ERs will probably be retired by 2012.

Then they're going to moan that they don't have enough airplanes to fly international from IAH.

Not that Emirates is concerned...
 
toxtethogrady
Posts: 1861
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:29 am

Quoting TrvlnMan (Reply 53):
Can we get back on the topic please??? Geez! everything turns into a financial debate.

Finances always determine what the fleet decisions will be.
 
spyderz
Posts: 627
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 8:06 am

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:48 am

Quoting Toxtethogrady (Reply 65):
Also, CO needs to find a way to add some 70 and 90-seaters to the fleet. Too bad they're unwilling to cut a deal with their pilots to make it happen.

With labor negotiations commencing with Continental's pilot union, I am sure the topic of 70 and 90-seaters will come up. The large regional jet is a glaring hole in Continental's fleet plan, with capacity jumping from 50-seat RJs to 114-seat 737-500s. While the Dash 8-Q400s is a stop-gap measure, this problem is going to be enlarged as the 735s are slowly exited from the fleet. In my mind, a 70-90 seat aircraft is critical to Continental's long-term strategic plan as the debacle that is Newark is restricting future growth. In order to continue growing EWR, Newark RJ flying needs to be transitioned over to larger aircraft (70-90 seat) in order to continue providing the feed for the international flights while still operating within Newark's capacity constraints. The Q400s will assist in this role, and while I love the Q400s, they can only fill this role on the shorter range flights.

My projection is that the pilot's will score a lucrative contract with sizeable pay increases (are pilot's deserving of the pay they receive?), however will have to give up scope limitations in return. If this were to occur, this would most definately pave the way for 70-90 seaters, with Continental most likely flying Embraer 170-195s by 2010.
 
toxtethogrady
Posts: 1861
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:13 pm

Quoting Spyderz (Reply 68):
My projection is that the pilot's will score a lucrative contract with sizeable pay increases (are pilot's deserving of the pay they receive?), however will have to give up scope limitations in return.

Sounds like the kind of deal I'd cut. We'll see if it happens.
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1983
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:27 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 61):
Plus 757-300s from EWR, CLE and IAH and 757-200s from EWR to FLL, TPA, PBI, MCO, RSW, LAX, LAS, IAH, SFO.

I knew there were some 757's thrown in there, thanks. Too bad no 762's on the transcons, ala AA.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15100
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:32 pm

Quoting Spyderz (Reply 68):
If this were to occur, this would most definately pave the way for 70-90 seaters, with Continental most likely flying Embraer 170-195s by 2010.

The question is, what will the pilots give up to win the pay increases? Would they give up 110 seats and below? Or would they demand mainline pilots fly those, but concede to a discount rate below the 735 pay rate (and above the ERJ)?

The reason I ask is that it's one thing to allow for a limited number of E175s, but CO would benefit more if it could start a new subsidiary that flies both E175s and E195s and replaces the remaining 735s (over time), as well as remove some E145s from service. In those situations, you'd see whole stations turn into E-Jet stations, connecting to 2 or three hubs.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
toxtethogrady
Posts: 1861
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:37 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 70):
Too bad no 762's on the transcons, ala AA

The 753's are better airplanes for the denser transcons.
 
floridaflyboy
Posts: 1604
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:26 pm

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:10 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 71):
The reason I ask is that it's one thing to allow for a limited number of E175s, but CO would benefit more if it could start a new subsidiary that flies both E175s and E195s and replaces the remaining 735s

I would imagine that there's no chance at all that CO's pilots would give up the 110 seat category to regional flying. That would almost definitely be something they'd hold tight on, and demand remains mainline. They probably also wouldn't allow for a much lower pay scale for the E195 than the 735.
Good goes around!
 
TrvlnMan
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:53 pm

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:56 am

Quoting Toxtethogrady (Reply 67):
Finances always determine what the fleet decisions will be.

I think we are all aware of that. The question was:

Quoting Flyf15 (Thread starter):
For those in the know at Continental, what are their current fleet plans? Whats on order (and when/how many), whats being retired, etc?

And since they already have many a/c on order, firm and options, lets talk about that.

But then it turned into this.....

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 43):
No American legacy carrier is in great financial shape.They all have extremely high debt, including CO.



Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 49):
At the last earnings conference, CO's CFO said that CO is highly leveraged, but that it has always been highly leveraged. He gave the impression that he thinks CO is better at managing debt than other carriers. Time will tell.



Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 52):
CAL's debt to equity ratio indicates that it has been more aggressive with using debt to finance growth than 90% of its peers in the Airline industry. But The Return on Equity for CAL shows that it is able to reinvest its earnings more efficiently than 90% of its competitors in the Airline industry.

I'm not whining - just trying to get back on track since there are a bazillion posts about financial stats....

 bored 
 
FlyHoss
Posts: 534
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: Continental's Fleet Plans

Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:47 am

Quoting Spyderz (Reply 68):
With labor negotiations commencing with Continental's pilot union, I am sure the topic of 70 and 90-seaters will come up. The large regional jet is a glaring hole in Continental's fleet plan, with capacity jumping from 50-seat RJs to 114-seats...

My projection is that the pilot's will score a lucrative contract with sizeable pay increases (are pilot's deserving of the pay they receive?), however will have to give up scope limitations in return. If this were to occur, this would most definately pave the way for 70-90 seaters, with Continental most likely flying Embraer 170-195s by 2010.

This is an important question. My gauge (admittedly, unscientific) of the CO pilot group is that they will not give an inch on the Scope issue. Many CO pilots feel betrayed or burned over the large number of ERJ 145s and how many former mainline routes are now flown by RJs. Also, there's still a significant number of pilots that remember the DC-9-10 and that it was a mainline aircraft flown by mainline pilots. In other words, the CO pilots want to fly any jet with more than 50 seats.

CO has yet to propose any Scope relief or alternatively, pay rates for these small jets, so it's too early to answer this question. But this is an important issue to the CO pilot group.
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...

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