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BlueSkys
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:49 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 9):
f we learned anything from the events surrounding TWA 800, it was the cost and delay caused by conspiracy theories; frankly, I find it so difficult for people to even think this, given that every night, for the past 40-50 years, airliners have taken off from JFK/Idlewild, heading east towards Europe and suddenly people think that the Navy would have shot an aircraft down? Come on!

I am not saying that a missle shot down TWA flight 800, ***But*** Every controversial theory seems to be a conspiracy until it is proven as fact. There are witnesses that swear their lives on the fact that they saw a missile..... There is always a maybe, always....

I think it is very important not to be weary of conspiracy theory's because it could cloud ones judgment into finding the truth.

Here is a conspiracy theory for you, during 9/11 the 4th plane crashed into the ground in pensyvania, and made two craters very far apart.... The military claims not to have shot the plane down, yet it is VERY evident that the plane broke up in mid air, Hmmm...

[Edited 2007-08-31 02:58:24]
 
BlueSkys
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:56 am

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 47):
The American A-300 crash in New York in November 2001 pointed to some very bad pilot training procedures.

And a bad vertical stab and rudder control system design?
 
Pu752
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:29 am

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 52):
I am surprised as well that the '79 AA DC-10 crash wasn't on the list, or the '82 Air Florida crash at DCA. They would be on there for me.

I think they are not important in terms of changes after those accidents............ it didnt change the whole aviation thing, well but the Air Florida one changed a couple of things regarding de-icing IIRC.
 
isitsafenow
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:30 am

Quoting Contrails (Reply 48):
The Cutting crash happened on May 6, 1935. A TWA DC-2 enroute from Albuquerque to Kansas City ran out of fuel and crashed near Kirksville, MO . There were a number of errors made that contributed to the crash.

Especially geography. Look on a map where Kirksville MO is. Hint...its not between Albuquerque and Kansas City.
I noticed on the ten listed that only one was pilot error and that was number two...
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
flanker
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:37 am

I think that Alaska Airlines Flight 261 that crashed in 2000 is one to be noted.

Quote:
The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was a loss of airplane pitch control resulting from the in-flight failure of the horizontal stabilizer trim system jackscrew assembly’s acme nut threads. The thread failure was caused by excessive wear resulting from Alaska Airlines’ insufficient lubrication of the jackscrew assembly.

Contributing to the accident were Alaska Airlines’ extended lubrication interval and the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) approval of that extension, which increased the likelihood that a missed or inadequate lubrication would result in excessive wear of the acme nut threads, and Alaska Airlines’ extended end play check interval and the FAA’s approval of that extension, which allowed the excessive wear of the acme nut threads to progress to failure without the opportunity for detection. Also contributing to the accident was the absence on the McDonnell Douglas MD-80 of a fail-safe mechanism to prevent the catastrophic effects of total acme nut thread loss.
 
Pu752
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:47 am

Usair 427 and United 585 must be above in the list too......
 
steeler83
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:02 am

I agree with USAir 427. That changed A LOT with the airlines. This crash was researched for years by the time they diagnosed the problem with the 737 rudder. Of course, the research also came from similar incidents, including a UA 737 incident in Denver (was that UA 585?) and I believe a Metrojet 737 incident. The USAir 427 crash I guess would have been the most significant given the number of casualties.
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
Pu752
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:05 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 56):
I agree with USAir 427. That changed A LOT with the airlines. This crash was researched for years by the time they diagnosed the problem with the 737 rudder. Of course, the research also came from similar incidents, including a UA 737 incident in Denver (was that UA 585?) and I believe a Metrojet 737 incident. The USAir 427 crash I guess would have been the most significant given the number of casualties.

Yeah it was UA 585 at COS ................ both similar accidents and one of the longest investigations in the industry.
 
Boeing727flyer
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:15 am

I also wonder about the Pan Am Boeing 747 at Lockerbie and the UTA DC-10 that blew up over the desert. To be honest there have been many bad accidents from big jets right down to the US Air that landed on top on the Beech 1900 ? at LAX.
Hail the mighty Boeing 727
 
L-188
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:27 am

Quoting NA (Reply 17):
Overall this list is flawed.

Agreed but they all are.

I would make an arguement some of the most influencial crashes didn't always involved aircraft.

I agree with half of them, some of them I wouldn't have listed before I read the article but I see their logic.

The 1956 Grand Canyon collison
The 1978 United Portland crash
The 1985 Delta 191 crash
The 1988 Aloha Airlines
The 1996 Valuejet crash

What I would put on that list instead of the other five are.

The 1931 crash of the TWA Fokker Trimotor with Knute Rockne on board. Really was the first case of fatigue cracks involved in a crash and lead to the overhaul of US safety standards and killed wooden commerical aircraft.

The 1937 fire and crash of the Hindenburg at Lakenhurst New Jersey. The video of that crash, which actually didn't kill that many people where burned on several generations and killed both Zeppelins as a commerical transport form but the use of hydrogen as a lifting gas or fuel.

The 1954 Comet crashes. These series of crashes introduced the concept of "Metal Fatigue" to aviation. The fact these crashes where left off the list is the biggest oversight of the authors of the report. Not only did it put a serious dent in British aircraft production but it also cause Boeing and other US manufactures to change their designs to avoid the problems.

The 1970 Dawsons Field, Jordan Hijackings....Ok while not techically a crash it did change the way that everybody saw terrorism and security. Only 9/11 has eclipsed the effect on travel. 4 jets hijacked, 3 ended up being forced landed in Jordan and later destroyed. (The El-Al pax fought back and subdued the hijackers) This was really the first terrorist hijacking that got the worlds attention.

9/11 2007 The second biggest miss in the story IMHO but very arguabley the most important. Changed the way everybody flies and has created a level of paranoia not equaled by the government since the Macarthy era.

Quoting Flanker (Reply 54):
Quote:
The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was a loss of airplane pitch control resulting from the in-flight failure of the horizontal stabilizer trim system jackscrew assembly’s acme nut threads. The thread failure was caused by excessive wear resulting from Alaska Airlines’ insufficient lubrication of the jackscrew assembly.

Contributing to the accident were Alaska Airlines’ extended lubrication interval and the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) approval of that extension, which increased the likelihood that a missed or inadequate lubrication would result in excessive wear of the acme nut threads, and Alaska Airlines’ extended end play check interval and the FAA’s approval of that extension, which allowed the excessive wear of the acme nut threads to progress to failure without the opportunity for detection. Also contributing to the accident was the absence on the McDonnell Douglas MD-80 of a fail-safe mechanism to prevent the catastrophic effects of total acme nut thread loss.

I still love how the final report completely ignored the pilot error factors in that crash. What did it in was the decision to change the flap position on the aircraft, shifting the center of lift.

before they did that they had a balanced aircraft.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:36 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 59):
I still love how the final report completely ignored the pilot error factors in that crash. What did it in was the decision to change the flap position on the aircraft, shifting the center of lift.

before they did that they had a balanced aircraft.

But with the horizontal stabilizer essentially flapping in the breeze they would have had a very difficult time setting the plane down anywhere. The UA 232 crew at least had control surfaces that were stable, even if they couldn't move them. In this case I don't believe there would have been any possibility of a good outcome; the only way it could have been better would have been if the pilots had realized what was going on and stopped trying to adjust the trim at the first sign of difficulty. But after seeing pictures of the screw and nut I doubt that that would have worked either; the pressure when they went to flare for landing would most likely have torn it loose and they would have lost control at that point, although then there might have been survivors.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
L-188
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:42 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 60):
But with the horizontal stabilizer essentially flapping in the breeze they would have had a very difficult time setting the plane down anywhere.

I didn't say they would have made it. In fact he probably would have lost it in a 200 knot ball off the end of whatever runway he ended up trying to land on.

But it doesn't change the fact that when he changed the flap position the aircraft was doomed.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:58 am

When DL lost N726DA in DFW because of windshear.Cant remember the Flight number though???
 
Pu752
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:59 am

Quoting DeltaL1011man (Reply 62):
When DL lost N726DA in DFW because of windshear.Cant remember the Flight number though???

Windshear right, that was flight 191.
 
cubastar
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:24 pm

Actually, in my opinion, Top Ten (you use whatever number) List means absolutely nothing. Why bother to compile these types of lists? In fact, in all of aviation, EVERY accident should be (and usually is) looked at and investigated for a probable (notice, not absolute) cause. We LEARN (hopefully) something significant from each and every one. Whether it be mechanical, pilot error, design issues, crew management (read, CRM or whatever term you would like to use), hijacking, crewmember physical conditions and on and on. If we look carefully EVERY accident leads up to a better way of doing things and hopefully will prevent another such accident in the future. It may take time. It is never easy dealing with the government agencies, the insurance companies, the lawyers, the manufacturers, the airlines, the unions and such. It takes time. It has been noted on this thread.....the windshear accidents of the Eastern 727 at JFK, the PanAm 727 at MSY, and the Delta Tristar at DFW. We learn a little more each time and we continually try and get the word out to everyone concerned. THAT is what is important......not the Top Ten.....of anything!
 
PYP757
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:31 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 3):
A few points: The article states that there have been no further collisions between airliners; this is not true. A UA DC-8 collided with a TWA Connie over New York in 1960; the DC-8 was traveling twice as fast as it should have been and overflew its holding clearance.

The article says "in the last 47 years", which seems to take into account the New York crash of 1960.
 
PYP757
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:48 pm

Quoting Sebring (Reply 2):
Interesting that the publication seems to believe that no crash that didn't involve US carriers, US airspace, or a US origin/destination contributed to the improvement in air safety.

I don't think the article is saying that.
This article focusses on the safety of travel in the US exclusively (with the exception of the Swissair 111 crash) and on the action of the FAA and NTSB to improve safety - again within the US - following these crashes. Surely other countries have taken similar action following major crashes, but this was not the point of this article.
 
pitops
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:08 pm

Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 5):
I have to say, somehow I think 9/11 misses. The crash of the two airliners into the WTC changed a lot, concerning aviation apart from a lot of other things.

EVERYTHING has changed since this has happened. Don't even have enough time to list it all.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 56):
I agree with USAir 427. That changed A LOT with the airlines. This crash was researched for years by the time they diagnosed the problem with the 737 rudder. Of course, the research also came from similar incidents, including a UA 737 incident in Denver (was that UA 585?) and I believe a Metrojet 737 incident. The USAir 427 crash I guess would have been the most significant given the number of casualties.

Scared the crap out of me. Way too close to home. People at the airport still talk about it. A guy in ops that I know will NOT talk about it. He was on scene minutes after it happened. He talked to me about it. I just kinda stared into space after he was done.
Ground Ops, Southwest Airlines, CMH
 
AirframeAS
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:30 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 59):
9/11 2007...

Tell me this is a typo! LOL
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
flight7e7
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:38 pm

A bit of a coincidence surrounding flight number 191. AA, DL, OH. All had flight 191 crash.

Even more coincidental? 191= 9/11??

Never noticed this before until the other day when reading a thread mentioning DL 191-then I looked at history of AA, same flight number....the Mayan civilization haunts us.

Cheers
 
flight7e7
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:46 pm

Wasn't there a US Air DC9-32 downed in CLT in July (2 or 3) 1994, due to wind shear and eventually noted to poor CRM? Killed about 35-40....I remember reading about a child thrown from it's mother, and found in the area hours later soaked in jet fuel and rain, but alive..?

What about the SO flight in April 1973?? Someplace in GA, hailstorm caused double flame out? That crash was researched for years as well.

Cheers
 
57AZ
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:46 pm

Quoting Don81603 (Reply 41):

A bit off topic, but this incident is referred to in a book I've read a few times. Does anyone have any more info on this? I checked the NTSB website, but found nothing. Thanks.

It's not on the NTSB site because it has no purpose being there. The NTSB site is only for recent or ongoing investigations. Historical accident information from the NTSB, US Coast Guard and Interstate Commerce Commission is available from the DOT Online Special Collections homepage. Click on the year and it will pop up all available records for that year.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
Titch
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:47 pm

Quoting Flight7E7 (Reply 70):
What about the SO flight in April 1973?? Someplace in GA

The Southern DC-9 crash was actually on April 4th 1977. It came down around the area of New Hope, GA.

Cheers,
Titch
I'll make weapons out of my imperfections
 
helvknight
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:51 pm

I would have added the British Airtours fire at MAN, IIRC that led to floor level lighting and the minimum seat pitch.

http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v...5®=G-BGJL&airline=British+Airtours
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member - Groucho Marx
 
wpmike
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:53 pm

Sorry Folks; can't help but to mention Pacific Air Lines Flight 773. Passenger shot the Pilots resulting in the crash of Fairchild F-27 N2770R on May 7, 1964. Not terrorist motivated, but a definite glimpse of 9-11 with passengers accessing the cockpit area of an Airliner.
Big version: Width: 750 Height: 544 File size: 81kb
 
ManchesterMAN
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:06 pm

Quoting Helvknight (Reply 73):
I would have added the British Airtours fire at MAN, IIRC that led to floor level lighting and the minimum seat pitch.

http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v...tours

Thank you. I'm glad someone mentioned that one. I think what happened at Manchester has saved many lives since in terms of expediting the evacuation of aircraft and the lessons learned were applied worldwide, even, I beleive, leading Boeing to design a larger, hinged overwing exit on the 737NG. It's hard to beleive that before that incident there was no extra seat pitch at exit rows (or it wasn't mandated anyway).

[Edited 2007-08-31 12:07:01]
Flown: A300,A319,A320,A321,A330,A340.A380,717,727,737,747,757,767,777,DC9,DC10,MD11,MD80,F100,F50,ERJ,E190,CRJ,BAe146,Da
 
f4f3a
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:03 pm

i dont think anyone has mentioned the british midland 737-400 crash in the 1980s. Which resulted in improvements in better training between sub types and the introduction of CRM into training sylabus

Also the BA BAc111 that lost a window brought behavoural psychologists into accident ivestigations which has led to better stuctures and saftey into the whole industry
 
airtran717
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:37 pm

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 46):
Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 34):
VJ592: doesnt belong, didnt show anything new... hazardous cargos date back to the 30s causing crashes. VJ592 is only important because of the overwhelming amount of coverage it received

I disagree. 592 changed the industry as a whole, and how we all thought about HAZMAT. Many airlines still use 592 as an example in their training courses. While 110 people lost their lives, the number that have been saved due to industry improvements is immeasurable. 592 definately belongs on the list.

592 DID change a lot in aviation, thank you very much. As I stated in my first post, #6, it took that accident to force the FAA to mandate fire suppression equipment in cargo holds. The NTSB had been recommending that for more than ten years prior. But the FAA always said it cost too much. So, while you say, rather callously I might add, that 592 didn't contribute anything... had they not crashed we might not now have the regulations we do with regards to HAZMAT and we still might not have fire suppression equipment in our cargo holds. And if I remember correctly, the families of the victims got something like $1.5 mil per victim. Do the math... at 110 bodies... THAT's what it costs and THAT'a how many deaths have to occur before the FAA will do anything.

It never ceases to amaze me just how much people don't know or understand about 592... especially, as you said, it got soooo much coverage. Is it a lack of initiative on the parts of the given posters to do their research before posting, or is it something else? Yes, this is the proverbial feather in my craw. Most people I have met through a.net AND on my planes throughout the years since 592, speak of this accident with a lack of respect, education on the event, and just downright rude callousness. It's as if you'd rather take the media's word for it rather than draw your own conclusions through some research. Lazy...
 
contrails
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:12 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 49):
Link doesn't work; can you try again, or post relevant parts?

Odd, the site isn't there any more. Maybe it's just temporary. If it shows up again I'll post some of the more relevant parts.

Sorry.

Here's an excerpt from an FAA report that summarizes the crash:

A Transcontinental and Western Air (TWA) DC-2 crashed near Atlanta, Mo., killing five of the eight persons aboard. Senator Bronson M. Cutting (R-N.Mex.) was among the fatalities. A Bureau of Air Commerce report cited the accident’s causes as the U.S. Weather Bureau’s failure to predict hazardous weather and misjudgments by the pilot and TWA ground personnel. In June 1936, however, a committee chaired by Sen. Royal S. Copeland (D-N.Y.) issued a report alleging that the tragedy was caused by malfunctioning navigational aides and voicing other criticisms of the Bureau of Air Commerce. The controversy gave impetus to legislative efforts that eventuated in the Civil Aeronautics Act of 1938.
Flying Colors Forever!
 
Strathpeffer
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:35 pm

I'm a little surprised that the Trident crash at Heathrow (G-ARPI I think) caused by premature LE device retraction isn't mentioned either. Because no CVR was fitted we only have a 'fair' idea of why the droop was brought in too early.

I'm am pretty sure the CAA mandated the fitting of CVRs to any passenger carrying aircraft operating in the UK after that. This was a pretty important step towards improving safety, allowing some of the key human factors in crashes since to be more easily understood.

PJ
Another Technical Problem?
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:44 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 68):
Quoting L-188 (Reply 59):
9/11 2007...

Tell me this is a typo! LOL

Or is L-188 part of a government conspiracy act that will take place on the anniversary of 9/11 and he accidentally leaked it?  duck   wink 

Quoting WPMIKE (Reply 74):
Sorry Folks; can't help but to mention Pacific Air Lines Flight 773. Passenger shot the Pilots resulting in the crash of Fairchild F-27 N2770R on May 7, 1964. Not terrorist motivated, but a definite glimpse of 9-11 with passengers accessing the cockpit area of an Airliner.

The "Plot to kill Nixon" (hijacker attempted to hijack the plane while still at the gate in BWI, and crash it into the White House), the FedEx attempted hijacking, and the Air France hijacking were glimpses too.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
airtran717
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:44 pm

I do have to agree with what someone else wrote... that every crash lends some new piece of knowledge to the industry. Every single one. The truly unfortunate thing is that lives have to be lost for that gain in knowledge.... most of the time.

... I have to wonder what grand knowledge we will learn when the first 380 goes down and annihilates both the occupants of the aircraft and the population of whatever town or metropolis it craters. I'm sorry to be quite so crass here. But that plane is a monstrosity and sooner or later one will go down and perhaps they will have learned that there is such a thing as too big and too many people.
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:06 pm

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 81):
I have to wonder what grand knowledge we will learn when the first 380 goes down and annihilates both the occupants of the aircraft and the population of whatever town or metropolis it craters. I'm sorry to be quite so crass here. But that plane is a monstrosity and sooner or later one will go down and perhaps they will have learned that there is such a thing as too big and too many people.

The day I hope never comes but still dread is waking up to the news of two A380s colliding on a runway and killing 1600 people; more people than were killed on the Titanic.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
cloudy
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:51 pm

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 1):
One comment I do have though, it is very unfortunate that many times, it requires a loss of life to cause change. Although some of these were unknown, there are many problems in aviation where the FAA simply looks the other way with the attitude that "it would cost too much to fix, and it hasn't killed anyone yet..."

It is also possible to kill people by over regulation. Over regulation drives people to less safe forms of transport. It slows economic growth, while all evidence suggests that a richer society is a safer society. It also stifles progress and innovation - nothing new ever comes without significant risks. If you stop innovation you stop safety improvements as well. With the US's aviation safety record, over regulation is probably a greater risk than under regulation is. If you regulate something because someday the regulation may save some life somewhere - you run the grave risk of causing more loss of life, etc. with unintended side effects.

That is why the FAA is far more likely to issue new regulations if people have actually been killed. It may sound crass - but sometimes the only way to know if a regulation is worth the cost is to wait and see if anybody dies because of its absence. Because you can also cause unnecessary deaths by over regulation - it may not be worth the effects noted above if the risk the regulation is targeted at is small, and it costs a lot to implement.

IN SHORT.... "You can never be to safe" "Don't wait until people die""Safety First" etc. sound wonderful and make good politics. But they are not rational. If we really put safety above all things, we would all just lie in bed all day. And then die of starvation anyway. People in the real world who make real decisions about real people's life need to be rational - and it is unfortunate that politics sometimes forces them not to be.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 83):

It is also possible to kill people by over regulation. Over regulation drives people to less safe forms of transport. It slows economic growth, while all evidence suggests that a richer society is a safer society. It also stifles progress and innovation - nothing new ever comes without significant risks. If you stop innovation you stop safety improvements as well. With the US's aviation safety record, over regulation is probably a greater risk than under regulation is. If you regulate something because someday the regulation may save some life somewhere - you run the grave risk of causing more loss of life, etc. with unintended side effects.

 checkmark 
Welcome to my RU list.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
threepoint
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 2):
Interesting that the publication seems to believe that no crash that didn't involve US carriers, US airspace, or a US origin/destination contributed to the improvement in air safety. I would also suggest that there have been a number of crashes (Arrow Air/ Gander; Air Ontario, Dryden; Air Florida; DCA) involving de-icing or lack thereof that have had a huge impact on the handling of aircraft in conditions exposed to wing contamination by ice.

There will be as many opinions on which incidents should or should not make the list as there are readers. Anytime someone publishes a 'top 10' list, there will be detractors or people suggesting additions or omissions. Considering the readership of the publication, did we not expect the crashes would involve US aviation? Your icing examples are well-received...maybe they would be number 11 on the list.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
airtran717
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:04 am

I don;'t think it's really even appropriate to make a "list" anyway. It's terribly disrespectful to the injured and dead. And does it really matter in the over all scheme of things as to what flight made what spot on the "list"? Making death and disaster a competition now?
 
brilondon
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:31 am

The crash in Tenerife should also be mentioned with all the other incidents as well.
Rush forever Closer To My Heart
 
contrails
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:56 am

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 86):
I don;'t think it's really even appropriate to make a "list" anyway. It's terribly disrespectful to the injured and dead.

There's no disrespect for the dead and injured here. Furthermore, there's no logical reason not to discuss the mistakes that caused their deaths and injuries. Life goes on, and the mistakes that killed and injured in the past will hopefully not do the same in the future.

I personally like to know what caused plane crashes. There have been a few in my lifetime that were of special interest to me, because I could see myself on the doomed plane. I read the NTSB reports. But I'm not being disrespectful to anyone.

There's an old saying which I believe in: "Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it". I think there's a lot of wisdom in that.
Flying Colors Forever!
 
airtran717
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting Contrails (Reply 88):

Hey, I'm not saying discuss it. It fascinates me too. But to make a Top Ten List... that's what is rather unsavory to me. Why put any kind of enumeration or value to only ten crashes? What about all the others? What about the victim's families?

Talk about crashes that mean something to you or stand out in your mind, but it's just a little macabre to talk what we think are the most _ _ _ _ _ crashes that contributed this or was the most spectacular that. Just my own opinion... on a topic that is based solely on opinion as there have been no official studies or polls on the subject... and for good reason.
 
cloudy
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:21 am

Quoting Brilondon (Reply 87):
The crash in Tenerife should also be mentioned with all the other incidents as well.

Did Tenerife lead to any big changes? It was notable for its severity but that does not necessarily make it influential in the sense that the author meant.

Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 81):
.. I have to wonder what grand knowledge we will learn when the first 380 goes down and annihilates both the occupants of the aircraft and the population of whatever town or metropolis it craters. I'm sorry to be quite so crass here. But that plane is a monstrosity and sooner or later one will go down and perhaps they will have learned that there is such a thing as too big and too many people.

All other things being equal, when you replace smaller planes with bigger ones the level of safety goes up. There is no reason the A380 won't be as safe as any other commercial aircraft. There are some evacuation issues that come from having two decks but they have been solved.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:59 am

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 90):
Did Tenerife lead to any big changes? It was notable for its severity but that does not necessarily make it influential in the sense that the author meant.

This one did have a powerful effect in forcing CRM, since the KLM copilot obviously realized that they had not been cleared for takeoff but didn't dare challenge the captain. It was probably the final straw that mandated it; other than that it really did not change operations all that much. Since the DC-8 crash that started this movement was included, Tenerife probably does not need to be included.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
billreid
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:20 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 12):
I found it odd that BOTH September 11th and the Tenerife Collision were left off the list.

Sorry September 11 was not a crash, as for this purpose a crash insinuates an accident, there was no accident involved on 9/11. It was a controlled intentional flight into an obstacle.
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mrocktor
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:36 am

For those interested in the effects of accidents on safety knowledge and regulation, this is another interesting top ten, from a slightly different perspective.

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 83):
It is also possible to kill people by over regulation

 checkmark 
Frederic Bastiat is smiling at you for looking beyond the "seen" to the "unseen" efects of regulation. RU material.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:43 am

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 1):
there are many problems in aviation where the FAA simply looks the other way with the attitude that "it would cost too much to fix, and it hasn't killed anyone yet..."

Why is that bad? You can't spend $1 billion to save a life. You obviously would spend $100 to save a life. Somebody has to decide where the line lies and what needs to be a law and what shouldn't. It sucks to put it in such blunt terms, but determine how many people it has and will kill against how much it will cost to fix is exactly what the FAA is supposed to do.

When they screw up the calculation, we end up with fuel tank inerting.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 21):
I have questions about TWA 800 primarily because of the number of witnesses that are sure that they saw a missile track headed toward the plane BEFORE it exploded.

TWA 800 took about 60 seconds to completely come apart. How in the world can any witness correctly put in order the initial event (which wouldn't be visible from outside the plane), the loss of the forward section, then the loss of the wings, and finally the breakup of the remaining fuselage. It is *far* more likely that there were simply events that were not visible from the ground that preceded the fire trail.

Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 50):
There are witnesses that swear their lives on the fact that they saw a missile.....

Well, they ought to start drinking the Kool-Aid then...there is no way they saw the missile. It was dark and missiles don't have position lights. At best, they'd see the missiles exhaust plume which, wonder of wonders, looks just like burning fuel pouring from a disintegrating airliner.

Tom.
 
csavel
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:06 am

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 94):
Quoting BlueSkys (Reply 50):
There are witnesses that swear their lives on the fact that they saw a missile.....

Well, they ought to start drinking the Kool-Aid then...there is no way they saw the missile. It was dark and missiles don't have position lights. At best, they'd see the missiles exhaust plume which, wonder of wonders, looks just like burning fuel pouring from a disintegrating airliner.

Eyewitness testimony and recollection are much less reliable than you think. With DNA technology legal experts are finding that out every day. You have a witness who says dramatically, "I'd never forget that.... He absolutely did it"
Witness is absolutely sure, but witness is absolutely wrong more than you think.

Now when you are talking about streaks in the sky close to dusk (9:00 PM or so in July in LI) causing a horrific tragedy, witnessed by people who, em, probably had a fair bit of wine in them (as I would if I were in the Hamptons on a nice summer evening) and, well you have recipe for poor recall.

Quoting MIT787 (Reply 15):
Here is an even better lesson...You can not have a conspiracy involving over 400 people and expect not one person to say a thing. This is the craziest conspiracy theory yet. Do you really believe over 400 people witnessed innocent civilians murdered and nobody said a word? Sorry, but I believe most people have more compassion than that.

Bingo!!! Even if you have a cynical view of people don't you think *someone* would talk, either to a buddy in a bar who then tells the world, or to a girlfriend or something??? Puh-leeze!

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 21):
I also had a friend who was a TV newscaster who told me that he knew for a fact that they had a separate hangar where some of the parts of the wreck were that nobody was allowed access to; that in fact they did know that it was a missile that brought it down, and they knew what type of missile and it was in fact being covered up

Then your friend is the world's worst newscaster, because I mean if he knew that for a fact then he would go from newscaster at WZZZ in Hauppauge to anchoring his own show at CNN in a New York minute by, gee, I don't know, perhaps, doing an exposé on this explosive "fact"!


Anyway, I think the Eastern crash in JFK in '75 really focused people on wind shear for the first time. That should've been on the list.
Also the PSA Crash in San Diego in '78, preceded Cerritos, but alas, it was only after the Cerritos crash that changes were effected.
I may be ugly. I may be an American. But don't call me an ugly American.
 
Viscount724
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:27 am

Quoting WPMIKE (Reply 74):
can't help but to mention Pacific Air Lines Flight 773. Passenger shot the Pilots resulting in the crash of Fairchild F-27 N2770R on May 7, 1964. Not terrorist motivated, but a definite glimpse of 9-11 with passengers accessing the cockpit area of an Airliner.

Also this 1987 PSA BAe146 crash.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19871207-0

Had the current hardened cockpit door rules been in effect then, both of these incidents would probably not have happened.

Another crash that had a major influence on safety was this December 1963 Pan Am 707 crash after departure from BWI, caused by a lightning strike. It prompted the FAA to require installation of static discharge wicks on commercial jets operating in the USA.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19631208-0
 
PanAm747
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:56 am

Quote:
Wasn't there a US Air DC9-32 downed in CLT in July (2 or 3) 1994, due to wind shear and eventually noted to poor CRM? Killed about 35-40....I remember reading about a child thrown from it's mother, and found in the area hours later soaked in jet fuel and rain, but alive..?

See the link in reply #29.

You might also be thinking of the other DC-9 crash at CLT, but that was September 11, 1974:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19740911-1

That crash was caused by very poor CRM. The later crash was caused by a microburst. It was a big deal at the time that the local TV stations had access to Doppler radar but the airport did not.
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OHLHD
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:20 am

A few come to mind:

A TK DC-10 with a failure in one of the cargo doors locks which lead to change of these locks.

The Lauda B767-300 crash in Thailand which was related to a malfunction of the trust reversers.

September 11th changed the aviation although I do not consider it an crash. But defintily it has changed a lot. As well as the liquid bombers from Great Britain, which changed even more. Especially these damn liquid regulations.  Smile
 
iflyatldl
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RE: 10 Plane Crashes That Changed Aviation

Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:29 am

I can't remember the exact circumstances, but didn't AA have a DC-10 have a cargo door malfunction over DTW? It seems to me a coffin got sucked out or something of that nature. I was only 14 yrs old, but I had just had my first DC-10 flight on AA just a few months before. Anyone remember the details? About 1972?
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