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fraT
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Rumour: LH To YYC

Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:53 am

Just heard a rumour, that LH will start service to Calgary. No details from which German city and no date.

Does anybody know more about that?
 
sebring
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting FraT (Thread starter):
Just heard a rumour, that LH will start service to Calgary. No details from which German city and no date.

Does anybody know more about that?

LH already serves Calgary - it's just on AC aircraft. If LH is starting a new route to YYC, it would likely be MUC. That would be plausible. But there are so many rumors, and another recent thread spells some of them out.
 
flyb
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:24 am

It won't be the FRA route, but maybe Munich.
 
flyyul
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:10 am

FlyB..

Be careful what you say. Certainly you cant say for sure that it wont be YYC-FRA.
 
flyb
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:45 am

We (Canada) doesn't have an open skies agreement with Germany do we? I thought As long as AC was flying that route LH Couldn't.

So that is why I made a statement like that. And let it be noted I am not the only one to make statments like that. Get of your high horse and let the conversations continue.
 
sebring
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:55 am

Quoting Flyb (Reply 4):
We (Canada) doesn't have an open skies agreement with Germany do we? I thought As long as AC was flying that route LH Couldn't.

So that is why I made a statement like that. And let it be noted I am not the only one to make statments like that. Get of your high horse and let the conversations continue.

Canada has a virtual open skies agreement with Germany and has for many years. LH can start service tomorrow. However, LH and AC have a complete revenue sharing agreement on ALL flights between Canada and Germany, and extensive codesharing on each other's network. Therefore, any new Canada-Germany route launched by either of the two carriers can be viewed as an extension of their joint venture, and therefore acceptable to both. They are competing with other carriers and other hubs more than with each other. AC and LH both fly YYZ-FRA so both could have flights on the Calgary-Frankfurt route, but it is more likely, if they wish to add Calgary service, that it would be to MUC or DUS for two related reasons. First, there is a finite number of slots in FRA and it might make more sense if they are adding any new Canada-FRA routes to look first at a new market like YEG because AC can always meet the need for growth capacity in YYC-FRA by assigning a 777-300ER to the route.
 
flyb
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sat Sep 01, 2007 4:58 am

My bad, I read at one point on this forum that LH would be able to fly the YYC route because of regulations.

I hope it is the Munich route as the more diversity we get in the Alberta market the better.
 
yegbey01
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:08 am

if the YYC-FRA gets an upgrade (permanent one), it will be ok!! There won't be a need to fly 2x per day...but then again, this could be a move to fend off any potential move by AF/KL into the Alberta market...
 
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c172akula
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:21 am

I fly the YYC-FRA route once a year on business, usually in January. The flight is always full, so I could see AC/LH having no problem serving the route 2x daily. Now with BA in the Calgary market the Star Alliance may be looking to increase the flights to FRA to offer more attractive connections that bypass LHR.
 
flyb
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:31 am

I do think that the FRA can support 2x daily. Actually I am surprised it doesn't run at the moment. YYC-FRA has a good thing going especially with no service to mainland Europe from YEG...which adds all Northern Alberta to there catchment as well.
 
TruemanQLD
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:36 am

This is obviously a move by LH and AC to try and move BA out of YYC. I know I would much prefer to go YYC-FRA/MUC with LH/AC than YYC-LHR BA. LH/AC wouldnt even consider the route if BA didnt decide to service YYC. They want to keep Canada a mainly *A country.
 
sebring
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:36 am

Quoting Flyb (Reply 9):
I do think that the FRA can support 2x daily. Actually I am surprised it doesn't run at the moment. YYC-FRA has a good thing going especially with no service to mainland Europe from YEG...which adds all Northern Alberta to there catchment as well.

It all depends on fares. Full airplanes do not always mean profitable ones. For example, it would be significantly cheaper for AC to put a 349-seat 777-300ER on the route than a pair of 767-300ERs with an aggregate of just over 400 seats. Then take one of the 767-300s and put it on YEG-FRA or YYC-MUC...

Keep in mind also that LH is starting service between YYZ and DUS next April (5x weekly) which makes a YYC-DUS route unlikely.

[Edited 2007-08-31 23:02:55]
 
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BO__einG
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:47 pm

Sounds like a plan to me.
I think BA coming to Calgary last year probably played a big role in LH's thinking. If they did not come, they probably wouldnt of even looked towards our direction.
Looking forward to the good news, maybe this place too is starting to catch up as a major business center.
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Paddy
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sat Sep 01, 2007 2:32 pm

Whether or not this is true, how is LH able to be so much more agressive in opening markets in North America compared to other European carriers? Does their strong financial situation let them be more agressive in attacking market share? Does their particular business model/route structure particularly enable it? Or maybe it has something to do with their position in Star Alliance? All of the above? None of the above? I'm curious.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:55 pm

Quoting Paddy (Reply 13):
how is LH able to be so much more agressive in opening markets in North America compared to other European carriers?

I expect it's a combination of LH's large connecting network plus being based in the largest country in western Europe (Germany's population almost 40% bigger than the UK or France). LH thus has much stronger origin/destination traffic to support new routes than, for example, KL, which has to rely heavily on 6th freedom connecting traffic due to KL's much smaller home market. If not mistaken, Germans also rank at or near the top of the list of European (and worldwide) nationalities in their frequency of international travel, especially longhaul.

Germany has also had an open skies agreement with the USA for more than 10 years (1996). LH has thus had the flexibility to start new routes without any of the restrictions US-UK carriers have had to contend with for decades due to the highly-restrictive Bermuda 2 agreement (until next March when the new US-EU open skies agreement takes effect). Having anti-trust immunity with UA also permits LH to coordinate schedules, codesharing, pricing etc. And they're the two largest members of the largest alliance.

Having 2 major hubs in Germany must also be a factor. The availability of MUC has permitted LH to add new services without the slot constraints carriers serving more congested hubs like LHR have to deal with.
 
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c172akula
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:44 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 14):
Germans also rank at or near the top of the list of European (and worldwide) nationalities in their frequency of international travel, especially longhaul.

There is always a large amount of German tourists that seem to come out to YYC to get to the Rocky mountains. I run into people all the time on chairlifts at ski hills that are from Germany and came for the skiing/boarding.
 
AA767LOVER
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:57 pm

Munich will be a nice change from the usual FRA. LH used to do it with DC-10's long time ago, if I'm not mistaken. On the side, YYC also lost the AMS flights with KL. It's been a while, but to my knowledge they still have a KLM Asia plane with City of Calgary on it. Makes me very proud of my birthplace!
J.I. Tsui, American Advantage Member, United Mileage Plus (Premier)
 
scrumpy492003
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:47 am

Transat goes to Germany, as does Condor from YYC, both at least twice / week.
peter b95 c-ghfu
 
fraT
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:23 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 5):
However, LH and AC have a complete revenue sharing agreement on ALL flights between Canada and Germany, and extensive codesharing on each other's network.

Sebring, what about the new YYZ-DUS route. Last time I checked (yesterday), there were no AC codes on these LH flights.
 
sebring
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:36 am

Quoting FraT (Reply 18):
Sebring, what about the new YYZ-DUS route. Last time I checked (yesterday), there were no AC codes on these LH flights.

ALL Canada-Germany services are code-shared. Those will be, too. We're talking next April for the startup of service.
 
falcon7x
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:25 am

Looks like the rumor is everywhere now.The way its being put on this other site would make sense that LH is coming to Alberta in general...


http://forums.jetphotos.net/showthread.php?t=40244
 
caspritz78
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:01 am

LH also is very popular by travellers from India, East Europer or Israel to get to North America.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:21 am

Quoting AA767LOVER (Reply 16):
LH used to do it with DC-10's long time ago, if I'm not mistaken.

Yes, LH served YYC with DC-10-30s as an intermediate stop to YVR when they commenced service to YVR in the late 1970s or early 1980s. The YYC stop didn't last more than a couple of years if memory correct. I flew LH once FRA-YYC-YVR duriing that period. BA also served YYC (and YEG) as intermediate stops to YVR during a similar period but they also soon dropped the YYC and YEG stops, only returning to YYC late last year.

[Edited 2007-09-02 01:45:31]
 
Boeingluvr
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:36 am

Did the rumor come from a somewhat reliable source, or just somthing you heard? I admit I'd like to see those colours at YYC for a change. A340 I presume would be the equipment... 300's probably...Or 330's?
 
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Acey
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:02 am

Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 23):
A340 I presume would be the equipment... 300's probably...Or 330's?

Boy, wouldn't the 767 be useful to Lufthansa right now. It would probably be the 221 seat A343, or the 221 seat A333. I am convinced, however, that LH does not have an aircraft to spare for YYC anytime soon.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
SailorOrion
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:23 pm

Quoting Acey (Reply 24):
Boy, wouldn't the 767 be useful to Lufthansa right now.

As LH said that the 788 is too small for their fleet, one can imagine that the 767, in any form, is too small as well. LH is getting a bunch of A346s and A333s in the next 12 months, however.

SailorOrion
 
falcon7x
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:22 pm

I would assume the announcement will be for a 2008 start...
 
behramjee
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:00 am

I would never expect LH to fly from MUC to YYC as that would serve no purpose as LH's main aim in YYC would be to attract the high yielding oil & energy traffic bound for Africa and the Middle East via their FRA hub which offers many more connections to these places than MUC does!

But then what is the point for AC & LH to fly this route each daily with A 333 sized aircraft? I feel that this is too much capacity for the YYC-FRA-YYC sector.
 
sebring
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:10 am

It's also true that LH also has a limited number of new aircraft coming prior to next summer and has made a number of announcements of new services for which it will have to find aircraft. The new services to PK are supposed to be year-round, the three new routes from DUS next summer will occupy three aircraft. The latter three are all going into the North American market (including YYZ-DUS), so it begs the question whether LH is going to focus almost all of its growth opportunities next summer on North America. Somehow, I find that highly unlikely.
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:07 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 1):
If LH is starting a new route to YYC, it would likely be MUC. That would be plausible.



Quoting Sebring (Reply 1):
It won't be the FRA route, but maybe Munich.

the reply from Behramjee gives the answer. i think, too, that MUC-YYC is out of the question and that only FRA makes sense.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 27):
I would never expect LH to fly from MUC to YYC as that would serve no purpose as LH's main aim in YYC would be to attract the high yielding oil & energy traffic bound for Africa and the Middle East via their FRA hub which offers many more connections to these places than MUC does!



Quoting Acey (Reply 24):
I am convinced, however, that LH does not have an aircraft to spare for YYC anytime soon.

there will be 8 or 9 additional aircraft which will join the LH fleet in 2008. plenty of aircraft to start new services, already considering the new services (ex DUS) and destinations which were announced earlier.

Quoting Sebring (Reply 28):
It's also true that LH also has a limited number of new aircraft coming prior to next summer and has made a number of announcements of new services for which it will have to find aircraft. The new services to PK are supposed to be year-round, the three new routes from DUS next summer will occupy three aircraft. The latter three are all going into the North American market (including YYZ-DUS), so it begs the question whether LH is going to focus almost all of its growth opportunities next summer on North America. Somehow, I find that highly unlikely.

with more aircraft available than occupied by existing and the above mentioned new services, LH still has the opportunity to open up new services to other markets, not only transatlantic ones. watch out for more to come...
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
Boeingluvr
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:56 am

I can't see LH flying into YYC with the codeshare and service AC already provides. However YVR and YYZ have regular LH service as well as AC flights so it's plausable... As someone said, the planes are packed daily right now so perhaps LH could add a service frmo YYC to FRA with an A333 to back AC's already packed flights and perhaps somehow connections would be easier. It'd be nice as well for oversold flight to be able to move to a codesharing airline going to FRA on the same day. Could happen I suppose... As I said other Canadia cities do it already.
 
yvr1968
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:34 am

Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 30):
However YVR and YYZ have regular LH service as well as AC flights so it's plausable.

Actually YYZ-FRA is the only route ex Canada to Germany where both AC and LH metal fly.

YYZ-MUC is AC only (with LH codeshare)
YUL-FRA is AC only (with LH codeshare)
YUL-MUC is LH only (with AC codeshare)
YVR-FRA is LH only (with AC codeshare)
 
HanginOut
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Mon Sep 03, 2007 9:48 am

I think that LH operating from FRA to YEG makes the most sense. With AC operating YYC-FRA, you would have the oil community in Alberta completely covered from FRA and LH's connection flights to the Middle East.
 
Boeingluvr
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:40 am

Ahh okay... I was positive I saw an AC flight FRA on an A343... Oh well I'm wrong. LH uses the A346 on this route do they not? Regardless it could happen from either YEG or YYC, but my money is on the rumor staying a rumor.
 
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Acey
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:43 am

Quoting Boeingluvr (Reply 33):
Ahh okay... I was positive I saw an AC flight FRA on an A343... Oh well I'm wrong.

The equipment for AC 872 this summer has been highly variable, with nearly every kind of AC widebody operating it, so it is entirely possible. The 77W seems to have found it's niche on the route for the time being.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
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BO__einG
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:55 pm

I was told the announcement is coming later in the second week of September. Or at the latest, before half the month is done. Almost daily the FRA flight from AC is taking off heavy, thundering down 3/4 or greater length of the runway here at YYC. Lineups at the checkins are wrapping around stores and corridors on the opposite end, this route must be doing really well and I think the airline is lucky to provide such an opportunity for Calgary since it first started.. (Anybody know when by the way? 1997?)
Having LH pitch in would be just perfect, as someone said before, only YYZ is the other airport which gets both airlines doing the same route. YYC is usually not likey to get favorable choices before YUL or YVR since its a smaller center. But this time its been changing a bit thanks to the booming economy.

On an unrelated note, the AC 773 is still fiying around when it was supposely just for the month of August..
Its been taking off really heavy too almost daily.
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cylw
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:40 pm

AC's YYCLHR B773 ends on the 6th according to AC's online timetable.
 
Boeingluvr
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:50 am

Hmm usually the rumors of new routes or a/c include the announcement dates... I'm curious if LH see oppertunity in YYC after BA's move in last December. Perhaps with FRA being just as busy as LHR from YYC perhaps LH sees the oppertunity in using their own a/c as well as codesharing with AC. Could be FRA but I wouldn't be surprised if it was MUC.
 
ACDC8
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:28 pm

Sorry, but unless AC stops serving FRA I can't see LH coming in to YYC. Yes, the Alberta economy is booming (although it's already starting to slow down), but so is BC's economy. YYC simply doesn't have the market for another flight to FRA let alone MUC or DUS.

The post(s) regarding the AC YYC-FRA flights always being full, so are the the LH YVR-FRA flights.

I could be completely wrong on this one, but it just doesn't make any sense for LH with AC already serving the market. I guess only time will tell.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
DABTH747
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:31 am

they dont even have the aircraft, whatever new ones they did they have added some new DUS routes, look at for example LHE and KHi they are using a A300, aircraft are very limited although they desperately want to add new routes...in my opinion and from what I have seen the last 1 year or so
 
9252fly
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:46 am

Where there is smoke,there is sometimes fire when these rumours circulate. The problem with these rumours is that they tend not to be accurate,yet they give a possible clue to upcoming changes. My guess is that you could see YEG-FRA announced with LH code-sharing. It's not outside the realm of possibilities that LH could end up operating the YYC-FRA route and AC starting up the YEG-FRA route with a B763,that's providing LH has the aircraft to operate the route.
 
fraT
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:12 am

Quoting DABTH747 (Reply 39):
they dont even have the aircraft, whatever new ones they did they have added some new DUS routes, look at for example LHE and KHi they are using a A300, aircraft are very limited although they desperately want to add new routes...in my opinion and from what I have seen the last 1 year or so

If LH starts a new route to Alberta, it will be in May or June next year. They still have some widebody orders so aircraft shortage shouldn't be the problem.
 
evolv
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:12 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 38):
The post(s) regarding the AC YYC-FRA flights always being full, so are the the LH YVR-FRA flights.

i'm going to guess YYC has more business class passengers which makes a route for profitable. YVR would have a lot of tourist traffic which is not as lucrative
 
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Acey
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:54 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 38):
The post(s) regarding the AC YYC-FRA flights always being full, so are the the LH YVR-FRA flights.

I could be completely wrong on this one, but it just doesn't make any sense for LH with AC already serving the market. I guess only time will tell.

I agree entirely. People are saying that because LH is getting more widebodies, this is a perfect opportunity for them to fly to Alberta on their own metal. The route simply would not be profitable.
If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
DYK
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:47 am

Quoting Evolv (Reply 42):
i'm going to guess YYC has more business class passengers which makes a route for profitable. YVR would have a lot of tourist traffic which is not as lucrative

Is this fact? LH business class runs about 80% full ex YVR. Will YYC be able to support AC/BA to LHR adn AC/LH to FRA not to mention all the charter companies. Seem a lot of capacity for 1,000,000 peaple.
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flyb
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:49 am

YYC can handle the current schedule as you noted. Even though YYC services Calgary with a pop of over 1mill, they also are the hub for passengers in Edmonton (minus the LHR route), Northern Alberta, and Sask.
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:06 am

Quoting Acey (Reply 43):
agree entirely. People are saying that because LH is getting more widebodies, this is a perfect opportunity for them to fly to Alberta on their own metal. The route simply would not be profitable.

i disagree, I am very sure LH is interested in serving YYC with its own metal.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
ACDC8
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:20 am

Quoting Evolv (Reply 42):
i'm going to guess YYC has more business class passengers which makes a route for profitable. YVR would have a lot of tourist traffic which is not as lucrative

I don't think that YYC has that much more (if any) business/first class passengers than YVR. Yes, YVR has a large tourist economy, but so does YYC. Many of the tourists who arrive in YVR end up renting a car/RV and driving to YYC or YEG to fly back home.

Now, if Alberta really is such a hot destination right now with the oil fields, where are the airline schedules to prove this? Wouldn't airlines be jumping in to secure slots?

I'm sticking to my view, unless AC pulls out of the YYC-FRA route, LH won't be using their own aircraft.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
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LTU932
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:44 am

Quoting Acey (Reply 24):
Boy, wouldn't the 767 be useful to Lufthansa right now. It would probably be the 221 seat A343, or the 221 seat A333. I am convinced, however, that LH does not have an aircraft to spare for YYC anytime soon.

I believe LH is taking deliveries for more A333s, so they may have the equipment for it.

Both flights should be doable for an A333 with a decent payload, so the range isn't really a problem here.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
DYK
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RE: Rumour: LH To YYC

Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:34 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 47):
I'm sticking to my view, unless AC pulls out of the YYC-FRA route, LH won't be using their own aircraft.

I can see LH in YYC but not year round.

FYI LTU flopped in Calgary and pulled out after the loads were not close to expectations?
AC,CP,PW,WD,ND,UA,AA,NW,CO,DL,WA,AS,QX,PR,SQ,AI,TG,MH,JL,9W,IC,UL,PG,BW,NZ,QF,DJ,BA,LH,KL,OA,OS,ME,RJ,HA,AQ

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos