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JoeCanuck
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RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:57 pm

As far as I know, cell phones haven't caused any tragedies...yet. Hopefully, any airline that allows cell phone use will lose a ton of business.

Screaming babies are bad enough...just imagine all those lovely ring tones all flight long...the horror...the horror..
What the...?
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:03 pm

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 97):
If they are really so dangerous as you describe, why are hundreds of phones that are ON flying thru the air right now?
Nobody has answered this question

The question is legitimate, and I think it tells us more about how regulations come into being than about the relative safety risk of cellphones and (for example) liquids. (I'll discuss the U.S. in my reply as I am most familiar with how the political and regulatory processes work here, but I expect my reasoning applies, to at least some degree, in most countries.)

We tend to compartmentalize bureaucracies into small specialties; we are good at making the resulting specialized agencies at least somewhat effective at fulfilling their very limited functions (e.g. keeping guns and bombs off a/c), but bad at considering questions broader than the mandates of any specialized agency (e.g. what, overall, is the greatest safety threat to an aircraft?) or at expanding the rationale behind a specialized agency's mandate.

People have paid a lot of attention, always but especially since 9/11, to "people who want to hurt the a/c." Security has been built around that incomplete idea. We've never paid the same attention to benignly motivated people -- like the vast majority of cell phone carriers -- as a security threat, and the idea of 300 malicious pax all carrying cellphones is much less plausible to us than the idea of just one or two (who are unlikely to be in just the right seat, etc., to cause interference). As a result, we don't see cellphones as a threat within our unjustifiably limited idea of potential threats to a/c.

Pilots may know better -- just ask Pilotaydin -- but awareness of either the management of the responsible bureaucracy or the body politic as a whole, not a small group of professionals, is what is necessary for change. I have a feeling if you put FAA bureaucrats in the cockpit during episodes of electronics-related interference the rules would change real fast.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 97):
I am sorry, but the first option has too many caveats, including manual network search, situations in which the plane is close to the ground and hence phones pick up networks from the ground and third what happens if the on board antenna fails and nobody notices, of fails at night when all pax are asleep.

Personally, I believe -- exactly because everyone carries a cellphone and people are forgetful, as you say -- that cellphone and radio interference is a worse threat to aircraft safety than the terrorists we spend so much money and effort looking for. Exactly for the reasons you describe, I think shutting off of phones needs to be enforced at least as strictly as the (ridiculous) no-liquids rule and other rules designed to prevent attacks on a/c.

Without any other changes this would obviously be onerous for cabin crew. I think we should have a dedicated security agent (TSA, in the US?) who boards each flight immediately before door closure and does the checks.
 
jamesbaldwyn
Posts: 747
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RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:10 pm

Quoting Jamesbuk (Reply 6):
Thats not true, I was in the back seat of a Piper propeller plane (yes its not commercial, but it must run on the same radio system right? ) And I had left my phone on, and about 20seconds after take off we all heard the dar-dit of a phone trying to get signal and couldn't hear ATC (the instructions weren't for us but none the less) so phones can interfere with radios on planes so now i always check 3 times before we go anywhere.

Rgds --James--

I had that when I left my mobile on on my flight, turns out I got a text message but it made alot of interference getting to me.

I've been on some airlines where they don't like phones being used at all. Even if the the 'Flight Mode' is active.
 
PHKLM
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RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:31 pm

Quoting Jamesbaldwyn (Reply 102):
I've been on some airlines where they don't like phones being used at all. Even if the the 'Flight Mode' is active.

I can understand that, because people see other people using their phones, and will not understand it is on flight mode.
A lot of people do not know what flight mode means, or what qualifies for flight mode. You cannot expect crew to have knowledge about all types of cellphones. If we enforce it, we have to do it properly. If we don't, we have to assume it is not dangerous.

SeaBosDca, I completely agree with your last post (#101)  thumbsup 
 
mika
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RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:31 pm

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 93):
I find it unacceptable if airlines let economic concern prevail over safety.

Yet you let your own convinience prevail over safety when you refuse to obey regulations and the instructions of the flight crew. In which way would that be more acceptable?

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 93):
suggest that we lift the cellphone ban and make planes resistant to interference.

Good point, but until there are steps to assure that the systems of an airliner are not interfered by cell phones you should keep your phone off.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 93):
I would never want to harm the safety of the crew and other pax; I stow my luggage properly and I don't bring oversize trolleys in the first place, I keep the aisle and exits clear, I listen to the safety demo and keep my mouth shut when it is shown, I read the safety card and leave it on the plane, I locate my nearest emergency exit. It is questionable whether most pax do so.

Yet you fail to adhere to electronics and cell phone rule just because it doesnt make sense to you as a layman. Do you break every other rule that you personally dont understand or dont agree with? Why do you think that there is a rule against electronic devices and cell phones below 10.000' in the first place?

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 93):
For me, these are important safety regulations and I respect the authority of the crew members. But when it comes to cellphones, it is different. I refuse to believe there are 300 devices on board that can cause serious interference with the planes systems, and all the crew does is making a (sometimes unintelligible) announcement to shut these phones off! This announcement isn't even done in English in many airlines around the world! This announcement may not be heard by many people! And still there is no check or any kind of enforcement by the crew.
You finally see my point? If it really would be THAT important or THAT dangerous, this would change.

Untill there is a proven case where an airliner went down thanks to someone yapping away on their cell phone it will not be proven as dangerous. The issue here is that (as some of our pilot anetters here have stated themselves) there are instances where cell phones have caused interference with flight instrumentation, and interfered with the pilots trying to do their job safely. If you blatantly turn a blind eye to this i have to again say that you show very little respect to the flight crew. If i were a captain and found out about this kind of attitude towards me as a professional and the operations of my A/C i would let that person of my plane asap, hands down.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 93):
I find it very disturbing you claim that cellphones are dangerous but are still tolerated because it would cost the airlines a lot of money when the prohibit them. If there really have been 10 incidents or even accidents as people report in this thread, you would expect safety to be a little higher concern for airlines!

Read above, until there is a proven accident of magnitutde little will be done to prevent people to carry on their cell phones on A/C. The cost is too high and the evidence needed is not there.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 93):
The liquid ban is a prime example of a very inconvenient and expensive measure that has been taken; if cellphones would impose the same treat.

This is in no way comparable to eachother and i think that you know it. The UK law enforcement and Intel prevented a major terrorist act in the making, where the culprits would have used advanced explosive devices consisting of different liquids that when mixed together would make a bomb. This threat was imminent and would it not have been prevented the outcome would probably have been devastating. In no way do cell phones provide the same threat as these kind of liquid explosives do, common sense should say this.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 97):
Nobody has answered this question, expect a feeble attempt by Mika, who claims that it is "expensive" to ban cellphones altogether. Why does money matter when lives are at stake

It does to an extent and you know it. And from your attitude here it seems that your own convinience goes way before the safe operation of the airliner you're on.
 
PHKLM
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RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting Mika (Reply 104):
Yet you let your own convinience prevail over safety when you refuse to obey regulations and the instructions of the flight crew. In which way would that be more acceptable?

No. If the seat-belt sign is on, I do not stand up and walk around, even if I would very much like to do so. When the crew comes around to check weather I have fastened my seatbelt, I fully comply with their order. Not a single crew member has ever approached me or any other passenger in the cabin to verify phones were off. Apparently it is not a top priority. I switch of my phone during flights to save the battery, and because it doesn't work anyway. But if I need a phone number, the time, a calculator, or whatsoever, I see no problem in switching it on at cruise altitude. If you take the point of view in which you believe this is dangerous, I agree we should be very strict on banning phones. Up to now, I am by no means convinced for the reasons I stipulated above.

Quoting Mika (Reply 104):
Good point, but until there are steps to assure that the systems of an airliner are not interfered by cell phones you should keep your phone off.

But if the proper functioning of a Boeing 737 (ask Pilotaydin) depends on whether Joe Average in 3C has switched of his 39USD Nokia, this reasoning is unacceptable to me. I think we should then rigorously ban all phones from all flights, or lift the ban altogether "as is" because we agree it does not cause any harm. Not the vague and uncontrollable compromise we have right now.

Quoting Mika (Reply 104):
If i were a captain and found out about this kind of attitude towards me as a professional and the operations of my A/C i would let that person of my plane asap, hands down.

If I were a captain and I know every single pax has a device on board that could cause my airplane to function abnormally I would refuse any pax on board with such a device. I find it unbelievable that those pilots on this forum that claim to have witnessed interference of cellphones still trust pax to have it switched of. The simple truth is that many of them haven't.

Quoting Mika (Reply 104):
This threat was imminent and would it not have been prevented the outcome would probably have been devastating. In no way do cell phones provide the same threat as these kind of liquid explosives do, common sense should say this.

Agree. The problem is very different, but I do want to illustrate that when it comes to taking rigorous actions across the globe to ensure safety, we are willing to go very far. But once it comes to cellphones we suddenly see a lot of obstacles and problems. If we really wanted that every single pax around the world had his or her phone switched off, we would have long invented measures and technology to verify and enforce this.

Quoting Mika (Reply 104):
And from your attitude here it seems that your own convinience goes way before the safe operation of the airliner you're on.

As I said before, it doesn't. I comply with all requests made by the crew and I respect regulations, I do not annoy other passengers nor talk loudly or get drunk or whatever. If you feel endangered by the possibility someone has his or her cellphone on, then don't fly anymore. Someone will, if it is not me, than someone else who knows nothing about cellphones, airliners, interference or A.net.
 
mika
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RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:57 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 105):
No. If the seat-belt sign is on, I do not stand up and walk around, even if I would very much like to do so. When the crew comes around to check weather I have fastened my seatbelt, I fully comply with their order. Not a single crew member has ever approached me or any other passenger in the cabin to verify phones were off. Apparently it is not a top priority.

Have you ever had your phone out during a flight? I for one can say that during the times i've had (in flight mode) i was told to turn it off, and i've witnessed the same happen to other passengers.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 105):
But if the proper functioning of a Boeing 737 (ask Pilotaydin) depends on whether Joe Average in 3C has switched of his 39USD Nokia, this reasoning is unacceptable to me. I think we should then rigorously ban all phones from all flights, or lift the ban altogether "as is" because we agree it does not cause any harm. Not the vague and uncontrollable compromise we have right now.

We cant agree that it doesnt cause any harm, read the replies by the pilots in this thread. We can however agree that it is very possible that they do in certain situations interfere with flight instrumentation and/or communication, again, as has been posted by pilots in this thread. It's enough that there are instances where this interference has been noticed, even if it would be a majority of times that no anomalies were noticed at all.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 105):
If I were a captain and I know every single pax has a device on board that could cause my airplane to function abnormally I would refuse any pax on board with such a device. I find it unbelievable that those pilots on this forum that claim to have witnessed interference of cellphones still trust pax to have it switched of. The simple truth is that many of them haven't.

Who are you to put their word on trial?

The truth in fact is that any pilot for any airline would be out of a job pretty quickly if they would refuse the majority of passengers to board the plane each and every time with no regulation behind them or any kind of proof that those people disobeyed the rules and used their phones in flight.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 105):
Agree. The problem is very different, but I do want to illustrate that when it comes to taking rigorous actions across the globe to ensure safety, we are willing to go very far. But once it comes to cellphones we suddenly see a lot of obstacles and problems. If we really wanted that every single pax around the world had his or her phone switched off, we would have long invented measures and technology to verify and enforce this.

Taking rigorous action against an imminent and deadly threat yes, again, you cant compare acts of terrorism to possible interference to A/C operation by cell phones. There is just no comparison.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 105):
As I said before, it doesn't. I comply with all requests made by the crew and I respect regulations, I do not annoy other passengers nor talk loudly or get drunk or whatever. If you feel endangered by the possibility someone has his or her cellphone on, then don't fly anymore. Someone will, if it is not me, than someone else who knows nothing about cellphones, airliners, interference or A.net.

To be honest i do not feel afraid to fly even if some jack-ass keeps his or her phone on during flight, not more than i am afraid of crashing in a freak accident. What this is about is that there are real people who first hand can account that cell phones have interfered with flight instrumentation and caused disturbances in operations of the flight, still there are people who vehemetly want to ignore this and show no respect whatsoever to those operating the flight. There are many an excuse for that kind of behavior, but what it boils down to is that if you know that a cell phone have caused interference in flight instrumentation before and you still go ahead and use your phone then you are nothing but disrespecting the pilots and crew of that flight. Period.
 
PHKLM
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RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting Mika (Reply 106):
Have you ever had your phone out during a flight? I for one can say that during the times i've had (in flight mode) i was told to turn it off, and i've witnessed the same happen to other passengers.

Yes, only last week I flew DUS-FCO and FCO-DUS (I haven't updated my signature yet). On the way to Rome I was using my phone as a music player in flight-mode. The F/A passed by and didn't say anything though I was clearly using my phone. On the return leg, I was using the phone again, also in flight mode, and the F/A asked me to switch it off. I said "it is on flight mode" but she wasn't satisfied. I turned my phone off to avoid any discussion. So it really depends on the crew member you are dealing with; some seem to care while others don't.

Quoting Mika (Reply 106):
It's enough that there are instances where this interference has been noticed, even if it would be a majority of times that no anomalies were noticed at all.



Quoting Mika (Reply 106):
Taking rigorous action against an imminent and deadly threat yes, again, you cant compare acts of terrorism to possible interference to A/C operation by cell phones. There is just no comparison.

On the one hand you take the use of cellphones very serious, but went I start about taking measures you back off. What is your solution then? It is clear the current status quo "you do as you please and we only ask you to switch them off" is apparently not working. There are always people that leave their phone on, no matter how polite you are gonna ask them.
 
XJetflyer
Posts: 148
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RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:20 am

Ok here is what drives me nuts. I have a PPC 6700 Phone. For you that are not familiar with it, it has windows 5.0 and a full little key board. This phone can go in to airplane mode allowing me to use all other functions on it. So I can type up emails and have them sent out as soon as I land. Which is nice while i'm in the air for 3 hours. It also has other window items I can use, basically a tiny laptop that makes my life very easy. The key board is very quiet. It seems to bother no one.

Well it never fails, maybe 1 out of every 3 flights a FA demands that I turn it off during the flight. I show them that it is flight mode and that the little bars on the phone have an "X" on them. Most them understand and go away after explaining it. I did have one on a CO Express flight who said I would be detained if I did not shut it off. I told her to ask the captain if he was familiar with this phone and she said, "I will not, shut the damn thing off!!" I did and even complained to the captain afterwards and he told me how to handle it. It just pissed me off that I could not use this while others were using their lap tops.
 
mika
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Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2000 7:53 am

RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:26 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 107):
Yes, only last week I flew DUS-FCO and FCO-DUS (I haven't updated my signature yet). On the way to Rome I was using my phone as a music player in flight-mode. The F/A passed by and didn't say anything though I was clearly using my phone. On the return leg, I was using the phone again, also in flight mode, and the F/A asked me to switch it off. I said "it is on flight mode" but she wasn't satisfied. I turned my phone off to avoid any discussion. So it really depends on the crew member you are dealing with; some seem to care while others don't.

It may be that that FA thought it was a regular MP3 player you were using, or it may be that she simply didnt care. I do agree that reinforcement of this particular (and other) rules is far from perfect, it needs to be worked on no doubt.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 107):
On the one hand you take the use of cellphones very serious, but went I start about taking measures you back off. What is your solution then? It is clear the current status quo "you do as you please and we only ask you to switch them off" is apparently not working. There are always people that leave their phone on, no matter how polite you are gonna ask them.

I take it seriously since i have seen that there apparently are effects on aircraft systems from cell phone usage, and because all airlines prohibit the use of cell phones on flights. Crossing their rules is just the wrong thing to do and in my mind a serious thing to do, again since their are first hand accounts of these effects.

And what needs to be done? AFAIK:

A. People need to obey the airline's rules without exception.

or

B. Use their phones on planes/airlines where it is ok to do so (i hear FR for one is working on this subject).
 
scramjetter
Posts: 62
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:57 am

RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:45 am

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 78):
If it does happen in flight, on approach, we're not continuing until it's found and silenced.

So if it's in the baggage compartment do you just circle around until you run out of fuel?

What airline do you fly for?

 Wow!
 
PHKLM
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Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:48 am

Quoting Mika (Reply 109):
It may be that that FA thought it was a regular MP3 player you were using, or it may be that she simply didnt care. I do agree that reinforcement of this particular (and other) rules is far from perfect, it needs to be worked on no doubt.

Good, I have been very stubborn in this discussion, but I fully agree that this is best outcome: the current rules are just not workable, or practical at least.

Quoting Mika (Reply 109):

B. Use their phones on planes/airlines where it is ok to do so (i hear FR for one is working on this subject).

I'd go for option B.
 
NW747-400
Posts: 446
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RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:54 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 105):
I find it unbelievable that those pilots on this forum that claim to have witnessed interference of cellphones still trust pax to have it switched of. The simple truth is that many of them haven't.

Like I said, its an annoyance rather than a safety of flight issue. It causes interference, period. Come fly with me one day and I will prove it. I don't know if it is aircraft type specific, but cell phones are definitely noticeable on my equipment.

Regardless of whether or not you believe cell phones cause interference, feel free to read in the regulations concerning the use of electronic devices and compliance with crewmember instructions.

[Edited 2007-09-02 21:56:33]
 
gh123
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RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:35 am

I once checked in a bag with Virgin Blue in Sydney and then remembered that I had in fact left a phone ON in the bag. I went back to the desk and informed them about the phone - they basically thanked me for my concern but told me not to worry about it.........
 
jfidler
Posts: 388
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 3:32 pm

RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:03 am

If having cellphones on during flight is so dangerous, why wouldn't a group of terrorists get on a plane with cellphones strapped to their chest, and threaten to turn them on unless their demands are met?
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:08 am

Quoting Jfidler (Reply 114):
If having cellphones on during flight is so dangerous, why wouldn't a group of terrorists get on a plane with cellphones strapped to their chest, and threaten to turn them on unless their demands are met?

It's not that cellphones are capable of bringing an airplane down in flames the instant they're turned on....it's that they present a risk that is completely unneeded and unnecessary.

A focused, non-distracted pilot is a hell of a lot more important than your phone calls.

Cell phones should be turned off in flight.

It's a rule. Follow it.

Period.

End of story.


2H4

Intentionally Left Blank
 
iaddca
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:36 am

RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:38 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 115):
non-distracted pilot is a hell of a lot more important

which as I've said all along is the real issue, airline personnel want to feel more important than pax, and scaring people with made up rules is the perfect way to do that

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 115):
It's a rule. Follow it.

This is indicative of the school teacher-to-1st grade student customer service philosophy that is driving high margin business pax to private jets, or at a minimum, MaxJet/Eos/Silverjet/L'Avion types of airlines.
 
2H4
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RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:05 pm

Airline personnel want to feel more important than pax?

Cite a source. Because without one, that's nothing more than a misguided opinion.

As for your "schoolteacher" philosophy, you clearly don't have the attitude, professionalism, or knowledge to make educated statements about the law-abiding discipline of the aviation industry, so please do us all a favor and stop acting like you do.

Thanks, and have a nice day!  Smile


2H4

Intentionally Left Blank
 
PHKLM
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RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:26 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 115):

It's not that cellphones are capable of bringing an airplane down in flames the instant they're turned on....it's that they present a risk that is completely unneeded and unnecessary.

I have been thinking about this; the majority of people here claim cellphones form at least some sort of risk for airplanes. If not a risk, they cause an inconvenience. Even a serious inconvenience for some.
You accept a 39 dollar Nokia can cause interference with a multi-million Boeing 737, because of "the very powerful signal of a cellphone" and people dramatically talk about phones searching on "full power".

At the same time, nobody from this group is able to acknowledge that they use this same device 2 cm form their brains, 30cm from their heart and allow their children with weaker tissues to use this device as well. If the energy generated by a phone is powerful enough to bring a plane down (as suggested by some people, e.g. in reply 67), than this energy might be very well dangerous for humans. There also have been numerous -not so verified- reports about the dangers of cellphones to human health. But, you choose to ignore that, and instead focus on the highly remote risk phones have to planes.

I point this out to say that there is many controversy at this point, and many inconsistencies. Both the people that scream "it isn't dangerous!", like me, and the ones that are very much against it will be from the truth, but also speak some part of the truth. I think this tread clearly highlights we simply do not know enough about a device that is so widespread in our society and we use so much, but is potentially very dangerous, that we as customers and you as professionals at the airlines should be demanding answers. Answers about the short and long term effects of using cellphones, and answers about interference. I am afraid we are already too much dependent on and spoiled by the use of cellphones we deep down do not want to know the answer.
 
Bluewave 707
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RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:01 pm

The Cingular/ATT GSM network, and the Nextel iDen handsets are notorious for causing interference when a call (or text msg) comes in. I work with 900MHz wireless mics, and when one of the above goes off ... it wreaks havoc. Try that while videotaping a wedding, and a guest's phone gets a call (even with the ringer off). It happened to me last month during a wedding ceremony I was shooting. And during the reception ... don't get me started! I feel sorry for the editor. There's nothing to do to fix it ... that interference is on tape/dvd for all to hear.

Verizon and Sprint (both CDMA); and T-Mobile (although GSM) haven't interfered so far.

On an aircraft where comms are vital ... turn off your phone! I'd hate to hear of an accident caused by some fool's cell phone interfering with the comms, and the lives wrecked because of someone's ignorance (or even stupidity).
"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
 
jfidler
Posts: 388
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 3:32 pm

RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:27 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 115):
It's not that cellphones are capable of bringing an airplane down in flames the instant they're turned on....it's that they present a risk that is completely unneeded and unnecessary.

A focused, non-distracted pilot is a hell of a lot more important than your phone calls.

Cell phones should be turned off in flight.

It's a rule. Follow it.

I always follow the rules and turn off my cellphone while on an airplane. But I think the point of this discussion is to question why the rule exists, and if it is really necessary.

For example, last time I flew in the US, they allowed us to turn on our phones as soon as the plane landed (i.e. while it was taxiing). Meanwhile, I've been on many European carriers where the phones must be switched off until the plane is parked at the gate and the door is opened.

So if the rule is for safety reasons, why is it safe on some airlines to use a cellphone while taxiing, but not safe on others?
 
JetJock22
Posts: 612
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:26 pm

Quoting B777Neuss (Reply 4):
It´s forbidden, because no one never proved that cell phones don´t have influence to aircraft

You OBVIOUSLY don't watch Mythbusters  Silly
 
iairallie
Posts: 2326
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RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:24 pm

Quoting Iaddca (Reply 116):
which as I've said all along is the real issue, airline personnel want to feel more important than pax, and scaring people with made up rules is the perfect way to do that

Hey fellow FA's give a shout out if you love making up rules so you can bully people!!!! Anyone? Bueller?

Most of us hate the rule enforcement part of the job. Most of us dread having to say "Sir could you please turn off that cell phone/buckle that seatbelt/bring that seat forward/put up that tray table/stow that bag" for the millionth time." Honestly I'd much rather focus on the fun stuff which to me is interacting with my passengers.
Enough about flying lets talk about me!
 
bond007
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RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:19 pm

Quoting Iaddca (Reply 116):
This is indicative of the school teacher-to-1st grade student

LOL .... because it's evident from this thread that some of you ARE acting like 1st grade students, so should be treated like one.

Quoting Iaddca (Reply 82):
You don't know much about electronics

Hmm.... see below:

Quoting Iaddca (Reply 30):
yet they have no problem with all the in-cabin wi-fi antennas currently installed on biz jets for ARINC or Inmarsat broadband service

Do you have ANY idea what is involved in getting approval for any type of electronics installed in an aircraft? Do you think they just bought a wireless router from Best Buy and plugged it in. It's a complex process to get anything like this approved.

Quoting Iaddca (Reply 21):
Quoting Bond007 (Reply 20):
The rule for cellphones applies to any aircraft

wrong, look it up

After telling me I was so 'wrong', I'd appreciate a source of your proof, or perhaps an apology for being incorrect.



Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:25 pm

Quoting IAirAllie (Reply 122):
Honestly I'd much rather focus on the fun stuff which to me is interacting with my passengers.

You're there for safety for g*d sake!
I hope I am never on board of your airline.
 
mika
Posts: 2810
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2000 7:53 am

RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:11 am

I respect the fact that we all can have different opinions about things and to a great part that is what makes discussing things worthwhile. As long as we respect eachother and dont pretend to stand above law and regulations and the people enforcing it because we think that we have some sort of insight that no one else has, we are all fine and well, we are all deserving of a respected reception of our opinions.

It has been stated numerous times in this thread by flying pilots, among us, who can testify to the effects of cell phone interference to flight instruments. Ignoring that fact and instead pushing your own uneducated truth of the matter is nothing short of ignorant, respectless and patronizing. Opinions like these are not two cents worth in an educated discussion, and hence have no place in this thread, in my humble opinion.



All this said, what do you guys think about this:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossair_Flight_498


Would that be the only documented case that (albeit remotely) points to the crash of a commercial airliner caused by cell phone interference? Personally i was surprised there even was one case in the form of a fatal crash, i havent looked around enough to see if there are any more.

Interesting stuff nevertheless.
 
kanebear
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 12:06 am

RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:39 am

Quoting Iaddca (Reply 116):
which as I've said all along is the real issue, airline personnel want to feel more important than pax, and scaring people with made up rules is the perfect way to do that

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 115):
It's a rule. Follow it.

This is indicative of the school teacher-to-1st grade student customer service philosophy that is driving high margin business pax to private jets, or at a minimum, MaxJet/Eos/Silverjet/L'Avion types of airlines.

After all the discussion above, how is it that you still hold this opinion? Blinkered determination that you're correct? The rules in place have zero to do with employees on power trips. Bad eggs exist in every industry; I've encountered a very few FAs who were abusive in well over a million flown miles.

The issue is that so many devices can interfere, that a blanket prohibition is necessary. Even two devices of the same make and model can differ greatly in performance.

A device needn't have a speaker to radiate EMI. Electroluminescent displays can be noisy, anything with a CPU (MP3 players, computers, DVD players, etc), and certainly anything with a radio, even if receive only. IF (Intermediate Frequency) circuits 'beat' and in a poorly designed/manufactured device, that beat can cause substantial interference. Since there's no way to know what devices will interfere a blanket ban is necessary.

The quote below explained things rather well.

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 45):
Yes the navigation devices do have shielding - but they are still connected by wires to their antennas.

Every device with speakers generates EMI.

Every transmitter not part of the aircraft systems generates significant EMI

Every piece of wire is a receiving antenna.

Every EMI signal which contacts a receiving antenna wire interferes with the signals being carried on the wire.

The question is not do the devices interfere, but how much do they interfere?

With very rigid control of the specifications of transmitters in known locations the impact can be filtered and canceled.



Quoting PHKLM (Reply 124):
You're there for safety for g*d sake!
I hope I am never on board of your airline.

Primarily for safety... not only. The world is not so rigid. On a first class longhaul, I don't WANT them there for my safety alone. I WANT THEM TAKING CARE OF ME! Please provide a list of airlines you prefer; I'll avoid them like the plague.
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4704
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:07 am

Before you read on, (if in fact you do), let me state that in the air, I believe that rules are rules and they should be followed. I do and I think we all should. I think cell phones on a plane should be banned for no other reason than flights are enough of a pain as it is without it being added to. That being said..

How much EM radiation does an aircraft fly through on an average transcon flight...? I'd assume that cell towers put out a lot more power than even a few hundred phones. How about FM towers...? Each of them cranks out a minimum of 100,000 watts of electromagnetic, stereo goodness. We also have TV towers, WiFi towers...and a whole bunch more. Every flight is inundated with EM radiation.

The greatest danger is, (as I've heard so many times), during take off and landing. This is also when the aircraft is closest to the strongest sources of EM radiation.

What I'd really like to know is how much EM energy does a plane naturally fly through compared to the effect of a couple of hundred phones searching for home on a flight. What is the difference on having that radiation outside the plane or inside...?
What the...?
 
kanebear
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 12:06 am

RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:41 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 127):
What I'd really like to know is how much EM energy does a plane naturally fly through compared to the effect of a couple of hundred phones searching for home on a flight. What is the difference on having that radiation outside the plane or inside...?

The huge difference is that those EM sources are comparatively very distant and broadcast from facilities designed to focus the radiated energy in the horizontal plane. Thus, the relative field strength is lower, the harmonics that are so troublesome will have totally dissipated, AND those external transmitters won't be 'exciting' the plane's internal wiring.
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4704
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:08 am

I'd be very interested in some actual comparative data. I imagine on takeoff and landing, in that vital transition phase, I bet planes are right in that horizontal plane. The towers may be further away but they put out orders of magnitude difference in power.

I doubt that the EM shielding on the aircraft magically disappears because the source is on the inside of the plane.

Still, I'm just guessing. I could be swayed by empirical data.
What the...?
 
kanebear
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 12:06 am

RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:57 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 129):
I'd be very interested in some actual comparative data. I imagine on takeoff and landing, in that vital transition phase, I bet planes are right in that horizontal plane. The towers may be further away but they put out orders of magnitude difference in power.

I doubt that the EM shielding on the aircraft magically disappears because the source is on the inside of the plane.

Still, I'm just guessing. I could be swayed by empirical data.

I'm not an engineer but have a basic understanding. The relevant measurement is Power Density expressed in Watts per Square Meter (or mW/square cm is commonly seen as well).

Here's a calculator where you can view the results of power vs. distance: http://www.h-e.com/

Here's a report on the iPhone's power output: http://images.appleinsider.com/iphone-test-report-fcc-4.pdf

Here's an AT&T Wireless Cellsite application. Note the limits stated on page 25. Incidentally the consulting firm is the same as above providing the calculators.

At 500 feet, a 100kW FM station has a power density of 2.8W/m2. Mind you, this is at ground level so at any appreciable elevation the field strength will be lower. At 3500 feet, the power density is .059 watt/square meter. For a TV station on Channel 2 (lowest frequency channel, least free space power loss) at 1MW, the power density would be 14.4W/m2 at 500 feet. At 3500 feet, that figure is .294W/m2. At 7500ft that figure is .064W/m2. Multiply by .1 to get the cm/mW2 figures which are more relevant when considering the equivalent field strength in a plane produced by a phone. Mind you, the plane is further shielded by it's skin, etc. That is merely the power level at the outside of the plane. Every square meter encounters a field strength of so many watts.

Look at the iPhone power output. At 850Mhz the phone outputs ~.35W. At 1900Mhz it outputs not far from TWO watts! Furthermore, as it's so far away from the tower, the phone is going to be turned straight up to maximum output to get through. Ever wonder why a phone left on in flight goes through battery at an alarming rate? That's why. It's figuratively shouting it's head off.

Also, in this case you don't benefit from the plane's skin shielding the RF and in some cases you will have the phone right on top of the relevant wiring harness broadcasting straight at it. I'm sure you've noticed that if you reorient your phone, you can reduce or eliminate the GSM 'buzz' by simply rotating it a few degrees. A phone in a carry-on overhead or under seat with the antenna oriented just so could introduce the equivalent of several million watts of ground-based broadcast power into the wiring harness. Multiply that by a few phones and you understand why havoc can and does ensue but also why it's not uniform.
 
AJ
Posts: 2304
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 3:54 pm

RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:38 am

"Please fasten your seat belts"
Why? I've never been in a crash, I will not.

"Please return you seat backs to the upright position and stow your tray table"
Why? I've never once had to evacuate, I will not.

"Please remain seated until we arrive at the gate"
Why? I've never once had the aircraft stop suddenly throwing me and my carry-on into other passengers and fixtures, I will not.

"Please switch off all mobile phones and other electronic devices as they MAY interfere with aircraft navigational equipment"
Why? Airline personnel want to feel more important than pax, and scaring people with made up rules is the perfect way to do that, I will not.

So many safety procedures on aircraft are written in other people's blood, it is about time that proactive measures were taken.

My company now has a 767 fitted with a Picocell system to allow SMS and email to be sent and recieved in flight. A thorough series of tests and certification flights were carried out before the regulator would approve it's use and prove that having the cell within the cabin prevented excessive signals from individual phones. We have a few events logged that were attributed to mobile telephones, including an outflow valve being driven open on a 747-400. Fortunately the manual mode allowed it to be closed before the cabin depressurised.

I had the pleasure of operating the first service where it was available to passengers. The leg up to Brisbane from Sydney was as normal for the final tests. Passengers were told to turn their mobile phones off as per usual. The system logged 7 phones as being on during the flight anyway. On the way back to Sydney the system was avaiable to passengers and some 50 units logged on.

I ask why defy instructions from the crew? Many are based on regulations which technically allow you to be fined and/or jailed for non-complicance, and again many will cause potential danger to you, and more to the point, your fellow passengers who have complied!
 
spink
Posts: 317
Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:58 pm

RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:43 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 32):

First, we are talking mostly OUT OF SPEC cell phones, in other words, cell phones that aren't working correctly. They exist, they are within "tolerances" for a manufacturer but might be dangerous to a plane.

Any airplane containing flight critical instruments that can be interfered with by a cell phone should be grounded. Plain and simple. If a cellphone can cause flight critical issues, I can sure as hell design a cellphone sized transmitter with 10x the power.

Basically what you're saying is that car have better EMI testing and shielding than airplanes which is disturbing if true.

Quote:
Second, you cite examples like the one above, which are systems designed and tested not to interfere, and that operate at far lower power, and use that as proof that nothing can interfere with anything.

Most wifi systems operate in roughly the same range and power envelopes as cellphones. Most of a cellphone's range comes from the rather large antenna and transmitters at the base stations and not from the antennas and transmitters within the handset.

Quote:
Wifi is a short range, low power technology that relies on relatively large antennas to perform. And by installing it within a plane, you decrease the power used by the computers trying to access it (vs. a computer that accidentally has wifi turned on and is "seeking" a signal).

Most device wifi antennas are the same size as cellphone handset antennas. OTOH, the base station antennas for cell systems dwarf the wifi base station antennas by orders of magnitude combined with sophisticated sectoring. Give me 30-40 foot multi sector wifi base stations, and I can easily give you 3-5 mile wifi range.
 
skidmarks
Posts: 6614
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:51 pm

RE: Forgetting To Shut Down Cell Phone In Flight

Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:27 pm

I've not read all the comments in this thread but I felt I just had to add this annecdote.

A couple of weeks ago I flew with Manx2 from Blackpool to the Isle of Man on a Let 410. Not having cabin crew, the F/O did the safety brief - brief being the operative word!

However, after telling us about the straps and lifejackets he then went on to say that the rules are that Mobile Phones must be switched off. "But don't worry if you forget, there is nothing on this aeroplane that is up to date enough to be affected by them"! I had to laugh at both his honesty and his acceptance that his aeroplane wasn't the best thing since sliced bread.

Needless to say, we crossed the Irish Sea in complete safety and landed in the IOM without incident. And I still dont know how many people DIDN'T turn their phones off! Big grin

Andy  old 
Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional

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