f.pier
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Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:18 am

If you look at GPS and inflight on YouTube you'll find a lot of videos, but is the use of terrestrial GPS navigation system allowed inflight?
I think there shouldn't be any kind of problem when the airplane is in air and the seatbelt sign is off because the GPS navigation system doesn't transmit any kind of signal, but it only receives signals. It's like using a normal laptop computer.
What do you think? Can I switch on my Tomtom next week?
 
ENU
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:24 am

Quoting F.pier (Thread starter):
If you look at GPS and inflight on YouTube you'll find a lot of videos, but is the use of terrestrial GPS navigation system allowed inflight?

I don't think so, although I doubt that it would do any harm. But why would you want to?
 
f.pier
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:26 am

Just for curiosity, because I want to see the speed and how I can see the strets while moving so fast.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:38 am

It's best to ask the crew first since carrier policies can vary. I am almost certain that such devices, like all other electronic devices that involve transmitters/receivers, cannot be used in the USA at least.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:39 am

Now they are not.... plus it would be very hard to get a signal anyway
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
TG992
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:52 am

This website claims to offer an accurate list of what airlines allow GPS use in-flight.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:...t=clnk&cd=1&gl=nz&client=firefox-a

Sorry for the long link - the actual website is http://gpsinformation.net/airgps/airgps.htm but it was down when I tried to access it today.

As you can see, some US airlines allow and some don't (for instance, Delta and United do, American and AirTran don't)
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nighthawk
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:14 am

Quoting ENU (Reply 1):
But why would you want to?

Incase the pilot gets lost?

"At the end of the airway..... turn left"... Big grin
 
EMBQA
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:32 am

Quoting TG992 (Reply 5):
This website claims to offer an accurate list of what airlines allow GPS use in-flight

In the US FAR's do not allow the use of unapproved electronic devices while in flight. GPS's are on that list so any US airline on that list is incorrect.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
N9JIG
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:34 am

I flew on USAir (AWA unit) to PHX from ORD this February and had no problem getting permission from the flight crew, in fact the return flight the FA's stopped by several times to check it out.

I used a laptop with an external GPS antenna with a suction cup holding it to the window and it worked just fine.

Last year on a WN flight from MDW to LAS I asked the FA if it was OK and she had to ask someone else and she came back and said it was fine. I was too tired on the return flight so didn't bother with it.

As for using a TomTom you may not have much luck without an external antenna unless you hold it to the window, don't forget you are riding in a metal tube...
 
TG992
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:32 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 7):

In the US FAR's do not allow the use of unapproved electronic devices while in flight. GPS's are on that list so any US airline on that list is incorrect.

Perhaps you should report Northwest to the FAA then, since it seems their Flight Ops book specifically allows it..

Per the website: NorthWest Airlines (Flight operations book under rule 120.8.5)
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SNCNtry32
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:29 pm

Is it in a two way transit mode? Yes, shut it off.

End of story.
Long Live Memphis!
 
 
jamotcx
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:27 pm

I've used my GPS unit plenty of times with no problems. I have a garmin 296 which I use while flying light aircraft and sometimes I take it with me on commercial flights. Although not so often now I fly the things.

GPS units recieve signals from the satellites, they dont transmit back to them. Of course its up to the crew of the flight you are on, but I wouldn't have any trouble with anyone using one down the back of my bus  Smile


Jamo
 
star_world
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:36 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 7):
In the US FAR's do not allow the use of unapproved electronic devices while in flight. GPS's are on that list so any US airline on that list is incorrect.

You are wrong in the case of CO also - they specifically mention that GPS devices are allowed. You are correct in saying that the FARs say that unauthorized devices are prohibited, but the list of which devices fall into that category is up to the airline (with a few exceptions).
 
lincoln
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:01 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 7):
In the US FAR's do not allow the use of unapproved electronic devices while in flight. GPS's are on that list so any US airline on that list is incorrect.

Incorrect, kind of. While 14 CFR 121.306(a) specifies that "Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any U.S.-registered civil aircraft operating under this part." paragraphs (b) and (c) of that section provide significant latitude to the airline:

Quote:
(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to—
(1) Portable voice recorders;
(2) Hearing aids;
(3) Heart pacemakers;
(4) Electric shavers; or
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the part 119 certificate holder has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.

(c) The determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be made by that part 119 certificate holder operating the particular device to be used.

(The same provision appears at 14 CFR 91.21, 14 CFR 125.204, 14 CFR 135.144 for carriers covered by those sections)

Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
avroarrow
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:35 am

Back a few years ago a co-worker and I were on a hop from YVR to YYC and used his new handheld Garmin just fine from the window seat. (Held up against the window was the only way it could "see" enough sky to get a fix. His model had a pressure altimeter in it and I got to explain to him how pressurization works after he was confused by the fact that the GPS said we were at 6000 feet when the captain said we were at 32,000 feet at the time. Since AFIK GPS units only RX and don't TX they shouldn't interfere with anything.
But as people say, always ask first. If nothing else you won't end up looking suspicious and have one of your fellow armchair deputies (passengers) try to turn you in for brownie points.
As a side note the manual for my little Magellan eXplorist 200 says that it should work up to speeds of 951 MPH (1530.5km/h) and altitudes of 60,000 ft (18,600 meters). So by the looks of it I should be OK on my next flight as it keeping up. The eXplorist 200 uses triangulation for altitude not a pressure sensor so it might be neat to try it out and see what the difference ends up being VS the 29.92 setting in the office. I know that in the 172 I usually fly it isn't uncommon for the altitude be between 20 and 200 feet off depending on the day.
Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
 
PH-TVH
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:30 am

Hahahahaha, have u ever tried TomTom inflight? The whole program goes ballistic, because you are going waaaaaaaay faster than the speed the TomTom is made for, plus you hop from road to forest to sea.... We did it once, for fun, while flying from the Netherlands to Denmark. The whole system didnt know what happened to him.

After all: Fun experiment.
Practical use: 0....

Better go for aviation GPS equipment, like Garmin or Bendix/King
 
FutureFO
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:43 am

We at Republic Holding do not allow GPS receivers on any of our flights. From AA to US. It is specifically stated in our manual.
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
EMBQA
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Infli

Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:50 am

Quoting TG992 (Reply 9):
Per the website: Northwest Airlines (Flight operations book under rule 120.8.5)

So what...?? Web site have been know to be wrong. Provide a fact based link from a Northwest source, not some aviation wanna be site

Quoting Star_world (Reply 13):

You are wrong in the case of CO also - they specifically mention that GPS devices are allowed.

From the CO web site.... in my book a GPS would fall under radio receiver....there is no mention of GPS anywhere on their web site. This also answers the question.. can I bring my scanner on-board.. NO.

Devices that are not permitted for use at any time:

* battery operated personal air-purifying device
* TVs
* radio receivers and/or transmitters (including AM/FM/SW, CB and scanners)
* remote-control toys.

Saying something is so just because a web sight says it is, or someone placed a video on YouTube does not make it legal or just. Provide an approved link. As far as the rebuttle on the FAR, not the key word... 'no person may operate as pilot in command' they are talking about actually flying... not a s a passenger.

[Edited 2007-09-02 22:22:28]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
corey07850
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:31 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 18):

From the CO web site.... in my book a GPS would fall under radio receiver....there is no mention of GPS anywhere on their web site. This also answers the question.. can I bring my scanner on-board.. NO.

You are wrong, just admit it...

Page 132 of the CO magazine: "These devices as well as calculators, shavers, cameras, GPS DEVICES, and aircraft powerpors for laptops, may be used only at the gate when when the main cabin door is open or when announced by the flight attendants and the aircraft is about 10,000 feet in altitude..."
 
fsnuffer
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:58 am

Just ask the Captain when you board. I have used my Garmin Map 330 on multiple Continental flights. About 50% of the time the Captain says it is OK and the rest say they would prefer i didn't. As an exUSAF navigator I like watching where I am. As to getting a signal, I have never had a problem.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:02 am

Quoting Corey07850 (Reply 19):
You are wrong, just admit it..

Well......... since I don't have a CO In-Flight Mag at my disposal.........
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
star_world
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:43 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 18):
Saying something is so just because a web sight says it is, or someone placed a video on YouTube does not make it legal or just. Provide an approved link.

I've just stepped off a CO flight about an hour ago and I can confirm that GPS devices are specifically listed in their inflight magazine as approved. This magazine isn't online so you're not getting a link, but have a look yourself the next time you're on a CO flight, and ask the FA for confirmation from their manual if that's not "official" enough.

BTW I have used a USB GPS receiver on many CO flights with great success, using the Streets & Trips program to plot the position, speed, heading, etc. on the map.
 
bAe146TOM
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:06 am

A passenger on one of my flights was sat there with one on and i stopped and went mad was like what do you think your doin had to really hold my self back because its so stupid because surly it interfears with the Equip?
Tom
 
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JBo
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:13 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 21):

Well......... since I don't have a CO In-Flight Mag at my disposal.........

Obviously EMBQA doesn't take anybody's word for anything.

He is, however, wrong on this part:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 7):
In the US FAR's do not allow the use of unapproved electronic devices while in flight. GPS's are on that list so any US airline on that list is incorrect.



Quoting Lincoln (Reply 14):
While 14 CFR 121.306(a) specifies that "Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any U.S.-registered civil aircraft operating under this part." paragraphs (b) and (c) of that section provide significant latitude to the airline:



Quote:
(b) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to—
(1) Portable voice recorders;
(2) Hearing aids;
(3) Heart pacemakers;
(4) Electric shavers; or
(5) Any other portable electronic device that the part 119 certificate holder has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.

(c) The determination required by paragraph (b)(5) of this section shall be made by that part 119 certificate holder operating the particular device to be used.

So, in short, yes, GPS receivers can be used in flight if an airline approves of it.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
Jerald01
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:23 am

Any kind of electrical device, be it a GPS receiver, a laptop, a cell-phone, a shaver, or whatever, has the POTENTIAL for generating spurious Electromagnetic Interference (EMI) signals that may or may not escape the physical case the device is housed in. EMI is a natual by-product of electricity... it happens if you turn on a wall switch in your house, if you run a hard rubber comb through your hair, or if you see lightning on the horizon. It's all pretty much the same thing... EMI.

How MUCH electromagnetic intereference a device generates is more the concern and the TYPE of EMI that it produces is also a factor. Running a comb through your hair may produce enough static electricity that it is visible in the air, but the small spark you see may not be of such a magnitude AND of such a frequency and duration, pulse width, or combination of any of those, that it would interfere with one of the electronic systems on an aircraft if flight.

An electric shaver, on the other hand, produces and almost continuous stream of repetitious EMI that, given certain parameter are met, COULD induce a signal into one or more the aircraft's electronic systems, a signal that just may prove to be disastrous once it gets into that system.

The same is true for radio and TV receivers... their internal electronics receive and amplify electronic signals from outside transmitters, then they process those signal and produce an output... a sound in an earphone or a display on a screen. The path that the output travels on becomes a transmitter the moment the first bit of energy starts travelling through it (think "magnetic field around a wire that is carrying current").

No matter how small an electronic device is, it still produces EMI (hearing aids, pacemakers, electronic watches, and, yes, GPS units, included.) It may produce only a little, it may produce a huge amount, but it still produces EMI if it is powered up.

The government authorities who write the rules and regs concerning what may or may not be used on an aircraft know all this. They know that they CANNOT ban ALL electronic devices because we humans kinda like to have some of them on when we travel (hearing aids, pacemakers, watches, etc.), so those wonderful wizards of wordsmith try to write the rules and regs to allow a certain latitude of judgement on our behalf.

In the case of a GPS receiver, they seem to say "If it won't hurt anything, and if there are no rules against it, and if the PIC says it's okay, then we won't say you can't use it." That is why you see differing opinions (and rules) between pilots, carriers, and companies on this subject. Some say it's okay, others explicity prohibit them... it all depends on their wisdom (or stupidity), and maybe the alignment of Calisto with Sagitarious and whether the name of the current day ends with a "y" or not.
"There may be old pilots, and there may be bold pilots, but there are darn few green cows"
 
AirNZ
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:32 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 18):
So what...?? Web site have been know to be wrong. Provide a fact based link from a Northwest source, not some aviation wanna be site

How can you possibly claim that NW's own website is "some aviation wannabe site"?????????????
Personally, I would say they they have more involvement than you on what's allowed!!
Flown:F27/TU134/Viscount/Trident/BAC111/727/737/747/757/767/777/300/310/320/321/330/340/DC9/DC10/Dash8/Shorts330/BAe146
 
TG992
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 10:58 am

Quoting BAe146TOM (Reply 23):
A passenger on one of my flights was sat there with one on and i stopped and went mad was like what do you think your doin had to really hold my self back because its so stupid because surly it interfears with the Equip?
Tom

If this post indicates the average intelligence of FR cabin crew, then may God have mercy on us all.
-
 
EMBQA
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:36 am

Quoting JBo (Reply 24):
Obviously EMBQA doesn't take anybody's word for anything.

No.. I just fon't have a CO In flight mag on my desk.. period.

Quoting AirNZ (Reply 26):
How can you possibly claim that NW's own website is "some aviation wannabe site"?????????????

If you say that information comes from the Northwest web site provide the link to that page. That information came from the web site that claims to list the airlines that allowed the use of GPS and gave a NW Flights Ops page ref....none of which can be verified.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
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fraspotter
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:13 pm

Hmmm.... sounds interesting. I may have to try that sometime...  Wink

In a sorta related topic, I personally own a TomTom GO 910 GPS for my car and it works great in getting me places. However, I've noticed that when I type in a trip from point A to point B, the estimated time of arrival is way longer than it actually is. I did the math, and for some reason the TomTom automatically assumes that we would go down the highway at 30 MPH to get where we're going and calculates accordingly. Anyone know why? Can it be fixed? I don't use the estimate TOA in planning my trips, but it bugs me anyway.... suggestions?
"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee."

— Gunter's Second Law of Air Travel
 
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ADent
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:02 pm

Any regular radio receiver can cause spurious output since they typically use a heterodyne principal that requires a on board frequency near the received frequency. That is what those radar detector detectors pick up on.

Now GPS is a very low level signal, so those have to be pretty good about not spewing RF near the interested frequency. So it seems like a properly functioning GPS unit is not likely to cause interference, like a cheapo FM receiver could.
 
Bluewave 707
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:50 pm

Thanks for the info on GPS units!

Out of curiosity .... if someone were to have a scanner on-board, tuned into the same freq as the aircraft ... how much interference would it cause to the aricraft's comms?
"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
 
vtdl
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RE: Is The Use Of Tomtom (or Similar)allowed Inflight?

Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:09 pm

I tried it once with my Garmin Nuvi 350 for 15 minutes or so, but could not track the satellite. I thought it was reception problem or was moving too fast. But seeing one of the YouTube video, someone was able to use his Nuvi 360 in flight. Hmmm! Maybe i will try it again!

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