User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 5764
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

PTVs On MD-11s

Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:09 am

Does anyone know whether there are any airlines who operate MD-11s with PTVs in economy? I know Delta operated the Rockwell-Collins TES system in BusinessElite, but not economy. We all know that most airlines are now eager to trade their MD-11s for 777s or A340s and sell them to cargo airlines. However, when the MD-11 entered service, the first personal television IFE systems began to appear on many 747s and A340s, and eventually on most 777s. Many newer 767s also feature PTVs. How come airlines chose not to install those systems on the MD-11?

Delta could have added PTVs to the MD-11s when the systems first became available. The decision to retire the MD-11s was not until the early 2000s. The 777s were initially Delta's only aircraft with PTVs in economy, and with only eight 777s, Delta could have definately had more international aircraft with PTVs in economy, including the MD-11s. Luckily though, the as the 767-400s are converted to international configuration, they are getting PTVs with AVOD as part of the Panasonic eFX system. The 777-200LRs will get the Panasonic eX2 system, with greater storage capacity over the eFX. I am pretty sure that if Delta orders the 787, they will feature PTVs as well.
Yes, I wear Fairy Tale Pink IZOD shirts. I am a real man.
 
AlitaliaMD11
Posts: 3704
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:19 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:30 am

I believe KLM will be installing them on Y soon.

TAM and Finnair do not have PTVs in Y.
No Vueling No Party
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 5764
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:41 am

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 1):
I believe KLM will be installing them on Y soon.

Well, the new seats do have placeholders for the PTVs, but no PTVs installed in them yet:


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Quentin Gracilla

Yes, I wear Fairy Tale Pink IZOD shirts. I am a real man.
 
User avatar
Vasu
Posts: 3114
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 5:34 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:58 am

How long is KLM planning to keep the MD11s? Would it be worth fitting them in?
 
je89_w
Screener
Posts: 2070
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 1:29 pm

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:29 am

Bundled PTV wiring near the cockpit short-circuited causing Swissair 111 to go down. I believe after that accident, SR removed all PTVs from their MD-11 fleet. Is KL actually intending to install those PTVs on their MD-11s?
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2514
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:33 am

Quoting Je89_w (Reply 4):
Bundled PTV wiring near the cockpit short-circuited causing Swissair 111 to go down. I believe after that accident, SR removed all PTVs from their MD-11 fleet. Is KL actually intending to install those PTVs on their MD-11s?



There was an AD, issued by the FAA instructing to change all the IFE wiring in all Douglas jets, IIRC. So it should be safe.

Gastón - The MD11junkie

[Edited 2007-09-04 04:34:29]
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
walter747
Posts: 1379
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:49 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:35 am

Actually there were. thats what caused the crash of Swiss Air 111. the wires frayed on the EVOD (i think) system and caused a fire. So there was PTV's on MD-11's.
Hussel, Hussel, Husel, Grind, Grind, Grind
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 5764
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:39 am

It seems to me that McDonnell Douglas aircraft always seem to be behind the times in terms of IFE offerings. Most (if not all) MD-80 aircraft don't feature IFE at all. Out of all airlines operating the MD-90, I believe that only Delta, Saudia, and JAL have IFE on them. Iberia used to have MD-87s with IFE, but has been removed to reduce weight. I have never heard of any classic DC-9s with IFE, nor have I heard of any DC-10s with PTVs in economy. Most DC-10 aircraft feature projection screens, and most MD-11s have ceiling/bulkhead mounted CRT displays. AirTran features XM Satellite Radio on their MD-95s/717s; I don't know of any airline that has video IFE on their 717s.
Yes, I wear Fairy Tale Pink IZOD shirts. I am a real man.
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1983
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:08 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
It seems to me that McDonnell Douglas aircraft always seem to be behind the times in terms of IFE offerings.

The IFE service is dependent on the airline, not the aircraft manufacturer. Newer long haul aircraft typically have the best IFE, the last pax MD-11 was built in 1998. When did the first PTV's come out, the mid/late 90's? McDonnell Douglas was already nearing the end at that point. You may think MD was behind the times, but ironically the IB MD-87's were the first to have drop down screens.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 5764
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:05 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 8):
The IFE service is dependent on the airline, not the aircraft manufacturer. Newer long haul aircraft typically have the best IFE, the last pax MD-11 was built in 1998. When did the first PTV's come out, the mid/late 90's? McDonnell Douglas was already nearing the end at that point. You may think MD was behind the times, but ironically the IB MD-87's were the first to have drop down screens.

I understand that it is dependent on the airline. However, what I mean to say is that airlines have chosen not to install their best IFE offerings on McDonnell Douglas aircraft. I believe IB was the only airline to order drop-down LCDs on the MD-87. Nobody has ordered a factory-installed IFE system on any other MD-80 variant, although AA is testing portable video players on MD-83 flights that are four hours or longer. For the MD-90, I believe only Delta, Saudia, and JAL have drop-down screens on them, MD-90s on most other airlines don't have any IFE. The MD-11 usually features ceiling-mounted CRT displays.

For comparison, most 777s, A330s, and A340s have PTVs at every seat. Many 767s and 747s now also have PTVs as well. For narrowbody aircraft, most A320 series, 757s, and 737NGs feature IFE, and a small number of 737 classics do as well. Some Boeing/Airbus narrowbodies even feature PTVs, while barely any McDonnell Douglas narrowbody aircraft have IFE at all. Even some older narrowbody aircraft, such as the 727 with a few airlines, had in-seat audio.

I would actually be suprised if any airline orders the 787 or A350 without PTVs.
Yes, I wear Fairy Tale Pink IZOD shirts. I am a real man.
 
caspritz78
Posts: 229
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:51 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 6):
Actually there were. thats what caused the crash of Swiss Air 111. the wires frayed on the EVOD (i think) system and caused a fire. So there was PTV's on MD-11's.

Which could have been prevented if the wiring and the surrounding insulation material had been fire resistant. So it was a combination of faulty wiring and non fire resistant insulation material.
 
LXA340
Posts: 1160
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:55 pm

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:19 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):

I would actually be suprised if any airline orders the 787 or A350 without PTVs.

mostlikely not as even LH as one of the last airlines will have PTV's now also in Y class. However I am sure airliens who will use planes doestically will still order those planes also without PTV's but only incase those planes are not aimed for long haul travel. Eg, some of Quantas A330's that are only used domestically.

I gues that no MD11 features PTV's at least in Y is due to the fact that at the time they were delivered it was not a standard for airlines to offer those services, which over the past years has changed. No matter how wealthy a airline is 9/10 aircraft long haul aircraft minimum are being delivered with PTV's in all classes. Nevertheless most commercial airlines still flying MD11 eg Finnair and KLM feature PTV's in C class and KLM will soon feature a PTV AVOD system in all classes.
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 5764
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Wed Sep 05, 2007 12:28 am

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 11):
mostlikely not as even LH as one of the last airlines will have PTV's now also in Y class. However I am sure airliens who will use planes doestically will still order those planes also without PTV's but only incase those planes are not aimed for long haul travel. Eg, some of Quantas A330's that are only used domestically.

Delta is installing PTVs on 100 long-haul domestic aircraft. In addition to the 48 757s that currently feature the system, 28 of the 737-800s will also get the system as well as all of the domestic 767-300s. Even if Delta were to order some 787s (such as the 787-3) for domestic routes, most likely they would still feature PTVs, maybe with live satellite TV.
Yes, I wear Fairy Tale Pink IZOD shirts. I am a real man.
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2514
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:33 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
For comparison, most 777s, A330s, and A340s have PTVs at every seat. Many 767s and 747s now also have PTVs as well. For narrowbody aircraft, most A320 series, 757s, and 737NGs feature IFE, and a small number of 737 classics do as well. Some Boeing/Airbus narrowbodies even feature PTVs, while barely any McDonnell Douglas narrowbody aircraft have IFE at all. Even some older narrowbody aircraft, such as the 727 with a few airlines, had in-seat audio.

You should also keep in mind that McDonnell Douglas aircraft are almost 15-20 years old in average. Comparing a new A320/737 with an MD-83 is like comparing apples and oranges. Two different "realities" at the time they were produced.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):

I would actually be suprised if any airline orders the 787 or A350 without PTVs.

Why? Has the Angolan 777 been ordered with PTVs? It's to up the airline and it's product. If there's no PTV for your seat, it's not the end of the world.

Gastón - The MD11junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
LXA340
Posts: 1160
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:55 pm

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:34 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 12):
Delta is installing PTVs on 100 long-haul domestic aircraft. In addition to the 48 757s that currently feature the system, 28 of the 737-800s will also get the system as well as all of the domestic 767-300s. Even if Delta were to order some 787s (such as the 787-3) for domestic routes, most likely they would still feature PTVs, maybe with live satellite TV.

yes true, always more airlines who use planes on short haul routes install PTV's at every seat especially in the States. Mostlikely this trend will also come to europe in a few years and we'll see LH, LX and co to offer PTV's in their A320s etc.
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 5764
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 13):


I would actually be suprised if any airline orders the 787 or A350 without PTVs.

Well, Delta did order their 767-400ERs without PTVs in economy, however, this is only due to the fact that they were supposed to be a replacement for the L-1011s on domestic routes. With the changing market conditions after 9/11, it makes more sense to use them on transatlantic routes rather than on Transcon/Hawaii/Florida services. Delta is installing PTVs in them to become more competitive in terms of international service. Having only eight aircraft with PTVs on international routes is not very competitive. With 777s now being shifted to the longest international routes, it makes sense to install PTVs on some aircraft to Europe as well. The 767-400ER is now Delta's flagship for European services.
Yes, I wear Fairy Tale Pink IZOD shirts. I am a real man.
 
panam330
Posts: 2123
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 11:58 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:43 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 15):
The 767-400ER is now Delta's flagship for European services.

Not for long. Looks like it's going to be used for Southern hemisphere services like GRU and JNB, IIRC. Either way, they introduced the PTVs to remain with/ahead of the competition, and they look fantastic with the Boeing Signature interior.
 
sandrozrh
Posts: 2419
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:19 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:50 am

SR111 comes to mind.

That might be why most airlines were reluctant to install PTV's in MD11s over the years, and now with most leaving the passenger airline fleets rather sooner than later, it wouldn't be a good investment.
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 5764
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:21 am

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 16):
Not for long. Looks like it's going to be used for Southern hemisphere services like GRU and JNB, IIRC. Either way, they introduced the PTVs to remain with/ahead of the competition, and they look fantastic with the Boeing Signature interior.

Only for the winter. They will likely return to European routes next summer.
Yes, I wear Fairy Tale Pink IZOD shirts. I am a real man.
 
ardian
Posts: 506
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2000 3:15 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:34 am

When will KL install the PTV's? Or are they pulling up a 'Lufthansa'  Wink
 
Hirnie
Posts: 473
Joined: Mon May 10, 2004 7:13 pm

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:39 am

B764 the Flagship for Europe? Well, I didn't see one of Delta's in Frankfurt and I thought FRA would be one of their more important destinations in Europe...
The only B764 I've seen so far was CO 51 from EWR last winter.
Is DL planing to use B764 to FRA this winter?
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 5764
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:49 am

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 20):
B764 the Flagship for Europe? Well, I didn't see one of Delta's in Frankfurt and I thought FRA would be one of their more important destinations in Europe...

I would probably say that CDG and LGW are more significant than FRA. Yes, I know Delta used to operate a hub at FRA, but not anymore. I believe that ATL-CDG was in fact the first route to get one of the reconfigured 767-400.
Yes, I wear Fairy Tale Pink IZOD shirts. I am a real man.
 
walter747
Posts: 1379
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:49 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:20 am

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 17):
SR111 comes to mind.

That might be why most airlines were reluctant to install PTV's in MD11s over the years, and now with most leaving the passenger airline fleets rather sooner than later, it wouldn't be a good investment.

Yea i mentioned that earlier.
Hussel, Hussel, Husel, Grind, Grind, Grind
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1983
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:22 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 9):
For comparison, most 777s, A330s, and A340s have PTVs at every seat.

And as I eluded to, most of these have been built this decade with the PTV's installed, whereas no pax MD-11's have been built in nearly 10 years.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 13):
You should also keep in mind that McDonnell Douglas aircraft are almost 15-20 years old in average. Comparing a new A320/737 with an MD-83 is like comparing apples and oranges. Two different "realities" at the time they were produced.

 checkmark  Exactly, the point I was trying to make earlier. A better comparison with 15 year old MD-80's are NW's A320's and UA 737's, neither have PTV's and are about the same age.

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 17):
SR111 comes to mind.

That might be why most airlines were reluctant to install PTV's in MD11s over the years

This has more to do with the fact that the early IFE PTV's were not perfected and the wiring problems led to catastrophic events. The MD-11 is not the only aircraft that had the particular insulation. This could have happened to a 744 or 772 at the time, it was just bad luck for SR and the MD-11.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2514
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:55 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 15):

Eh, you just quoted yourself - I did NOT say that.

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 17):

That might be why most airlines were reluctant to install PTV's in MD11s over the years, and now with most leaving the passenger airline fleets rather sooner than later, it wouldn't be a good investment.

As I said before, I recall an AD was issued by the FAA to change the IFE wiring on all Douglas widebodies. I'm pretty sure that the reason the airlines are not installing PTVs on MD11s is because they find it more attractive to sell the MD11 to cargo operators than to offer their new product on it.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 15):
Well, Delta did order their 767-400ERs without PTVs in economy

Please... DL had almost NO aircraft with PTVs in Y until last year - it's not that DL had this for a long time... you're talking like if that was the case. DL ordered the 767-400/ER without PTVs because at the time it's product was NOT offering it.

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 22):

So?  Wink

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 23):
And as I eluded to, most of these have been built this decade with the PTV's installed, whereas no pax MD-11's have been built in nearly 10 years.

 checkmark  Some people just think we've had PTVs in Y for 25 years.  Smile

Gastón - The MD11junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 5764
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Thu Sep 06, 2007 1:13 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 24):
Please... DL had almost NO aircraft with PTVs in Y until last year - it's not that DL had this for a long time... you're talking like if that was the case. DL ordered the 767-400/ER without PTVs because at the time it's product was NOT offering it.

Well, the 777s were delivered before the 767-400ERs, and had the Rockwell Collins IFE system with PTVs factory installed. The main reason why Delta initially ordered the 767-400ERs was to replace the aging, fuel-guzzling L-1011s on DOMESTIC routes. Flying them international was only an afterthought. As a special note, the domestic 767-400ERs, even though they don't feature PTVs in economy, they DO feature underseat boxes for PTVs. With the lack of international aircraft with PTVs in economy, it made sense for Delta to add PTVs to them as they were converted. Delta has also considered installing PTVs on the 767-300ERs, but the added weight associated with they system has prevented it from becoming a reality, due to some of the very long flights to some second-tier international destinations that they serve. Delta serves some of the longest 767-300ER routes in the world, pushing them to their limits. The 767-400ERs have less range than the 767-300ERs, but are mainly used to top-tier European destinations mostly located in Western Europe, and to some southern hemisphere destinations. The 777s are reserved for routes that are too long for either the 767-300ER or the 767-400ER.
Yes, I wear Fairy Tale Pink IZOD shirts. I am a real man.
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2514
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:13 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 25):
on DOMESTIC routes.

And B6 uses PTVs with DirecTV on DOMESTIC routes... what's your point?

Gastón - The MD11junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 5764
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 26):

And B6 uses PTVs with DirecTV on DOMESTIC routes... what's your point?

As because at the time, Delta didn't believe that PTVs were necessary on domestic routes. This all changed when Delta launched Song. Song was intended to directly compete with JetBlue, and like JetBlue, featured PTVs with satellite TV. In the end, Song became internal competition with Delta, so instead, Delta decide to introduce the IFE to the mainline Delta flights. Today, most U.S. airlines still don't offer PTVs on domestic routes.
Yes, I wear Fairy Tale Pink IZOD shirts. I am a real man.
 
MD11junkie
Posts: 2514
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 4:59 am

RE: PTVs On MD-11s

Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:03 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 27):
As because at the time, Delta didn't believe that PTVs were necessary on domestic routes. This all changed when Delta launched Song. Song was intended to directly compete with JetBlue, and like JetBlue, featured PTVs with satellite TV. In the end, Song became internal competition with Delta, so instead, Delta decide to introduce the IFE to the mainline Delta flights. Today, most U.S. airlines still don't offer PTVs on domestic routes.



Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 13):
You should also keep in mind that McDonnell Douglas aircraft are almost 15-20 years old in average. Comparing a new A320/737 with an MD-83 is like comparing apples and oranges. Two different "realities" at the time they were produced.

There you have it. There was a different reality, and that's why there was that product.
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos