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FCKC
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1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:38 am

Air & Cosmos reveals this week , the first A320F customer has signed for 30 + 18 options .
For the moment the name is not revealed.Probably will be at the roll out of the plane at Dresden next year.

DHL ? TNT ? Fedex ?
 
Lumberton
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:39 am

Are these all conversions?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
777STL
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:42 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):
Are these all conversions?

Sounds like new aircraft to me, if he's talking about options and such.
PHX based
 
Lumberton
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:47 am

I knew Russian and EADS were in talks to do an A320F conversion program. I can't remember anything about a new build freighter based on the A320. Anyone?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
vv701
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:50 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
I knew Russian and EADS were in talks to do an A320F conversion program. I can't remember anything about a new build freighter based on the A320. Anyone?

This is also my recollection. I think that the agreement was a joint 50:50 between Irkut of Russia and EADS/Airbus with the conversion kits being made in Russia and the conversions made in both Germany and Russia.
 
OceansWorld
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:54 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
I knew Russian and EADS were in talks to do an A320F conversion program. I can't remember anything about a new build freighter based on the A320. Anyone?

Here's an excerpt from a Flight International paper published less than two weeks ago.

Quote:
Airbus initially estimated demand for A320 converted freighters at 400 units, but now considers 1,000 as a realistic figure. "We already have the first customer for these aircraft, while others are lining up," says an EADS executive.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ects-russian-deal-by-year-end.html

[Edited 2007-09-05 22:57:41]
 
da man
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:54 am

Quoting 777STL (Reply 2):
Sounds like new aircraft to me, if he's talking about options and such.

That could be purchase options on the conversion kits, just like how purchase options for new aircraft work.
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breiz
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:02 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 4):
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 3):
I knew Russian and EADS were in talks to do an A320F conversion program. I can't remember anything about a new build freighter based on the A320. Anyone?

This is also my recollection. I think that the agreement was a joint 50:50 between Irkut of Russia and EADS/Airbus with the conversion kits being made in Russia and the conversions made in both Germany and Russia.

Correct. No new built A320F was considered so far to my knowledge.

Quoting OceansWorld (Reply 5):
Quote:
Airbus initially estimated demand for A320 converted freighters at 400 units, but now considers 1,000 as a realistic figure. "We already have the first customer for these aircraft, while others are lining up," says an EADS executive.

Already in May 2006, the figure put forward by EFW Dresden was 900 units over 20 years with first converted ac flying in 2011.
 
scarebus03
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:35 am

I doubt if they are conversions as the value and demand for A320 airframes are too high to justify conversions. I would imagine they are in fact new orders as I can't see any real financial benefit in taking a relatively new aircraft model and spending the money to convert them versus, buying them as freighters directly in todays market. I would guess DHL as the 757's are getting long in the tooth and fuel costs are higher than they used to be.

Brgds
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Stitch
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:39 am

Quoting Scarebus03 (Reply 8):
I doubt if they are conversions as the value and demand for A320 airframes are too high to justify conversions.

Depends on the A320.

A320-100's are mighty cheap on the open market (around $5 million). A320-200 LGWs are worth about $12 million for a frame delivered in 1988 or $15 million for one delivered in 1990.

Ones under 10 years old are still worth a good bit ($30 to $45 million) and would likely not be candidates for conversion.

Edit

The latest Aircraft Value News had an article on this. Since it's a subscription service, you might not be able to get easy access to it, but here is what I feel is a relevant snippet:

Quote:
The values of the oldest A320-200s range between $8-12 million but such aircraft can have a high number of hours and cycles which make them less desirable for freighter conversion.Should an older passenger A320 be able to generate $150- 170,000 per month in lease rentals, as a freighter there should be sufficient premium over the medium term as to make conversion worthwhile. A book value of $5-8 million combined with the cost of conversion would make a rental in excess of $200,000 per month an attractive proposition.


[Edited 2007-09-05 23:44:10]
 
da man
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:48 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
A320-100's are mighty cheap on the open market (around $5 million).

Which ones, aren't the only A320-100s on the market the ones that are being parted-out (ex-BA)?
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LTU932
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:58 am

Quoting Da man (Reply 10):
Which ones, aren't the only A320-100s on the market the ones that are being parted-out (ex-BA)?

AF still flies a few of their original A320-100s.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
da man
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:05 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 11):
AF still flies a few of their original A320-100s.

But are they on the market as Stitch has suggested?
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OceansWorld
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:10 am

Quoting Breiz (Reply 7):
Already in May 2006, the figure put forward by EFW Dresden was 900 units over 20 years with first converted ac flying in 2011.

Probably, but my aim was to quote an as recent as possible article in which they mention the conversion.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:23 am

Quoting Da man (Reply 10):
Which ones, aren't the only A320-100s on the market the ones that are being parted-out (ex-BA)?

That may just be what one would be worth if it was available. Also, it looks like the A320-200 would be the more desirable freighter prospect.
 
FCKC
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:33 am

Yes of course these 30 + 18 frames are conversion from pax aircraft, thus second hand planes.

Question : Where will they come from ? Probably the oldest A320s still flying , and probably perhaps the first A320-100s still flying at Air France (Ex Air Inter) , as the French airline , has ordered new A320s , not necessary for growth , but also maybe to replace the oldest frames.
I will not be surprised if the first A320s from Lufthansa will get a second live as freighters.

If as Flight Int'l wrote , airlines are lined up to get A320Fs , this programm seems to have a bright future.

The first conversion will take place at Dresden , but after conversions will be done at Moscow.
 
scarebus03
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:33 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
A320-100's are mighty cheap on the open market (around $5 million). A320-200 LGWs are worth about $12 million for a frame delivered in 1988 or $15 million for one delivered in 1990.

Stitch,

The -100 I think we can forget about as they are nearly extinct and any modification program would be fairly extensive and costly.

The older -200's are still worth a pretty penny in lease rates due to the current market demand and coupled with high cycles (as your article says) makes them unattractive for conversion. Another disadvantage would be the engine types on the older -200's as the CFM -5A's and V2500-A1's burn more and are less reliable than the later models.Although in theory the freighter should do less cycles than the passenger variant.

It would make no sense to convert old aircraft in todays market only to negate the advantage in fuel and maintenance costs which has to be the main driver behind the A320F.

A substantial amount of the older models end up with charter airlines to take advantage of the longer sectors which in turn increases the flight hours but lowers the cycles flown. This keeps older aircraft viable for charter operators. And lessors have much more flexibility in today's market if they remain as passenger aircraft.

Either way it's about time a freighter version of the A320 came on the market as it is an ideal replacement for the 727F's (which incidentally the A320 was originally designed to replace).

I always thought the A320 would make a fine short/medium haul freighter.

Oh how I miss the old 727F's dotted around every airport in Europe! They really added character to the place.

Brgds
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MCOflyer
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:35 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 14):
Also, it looks like the A320-200 would be the more desirable freighter prospect.

With more powerful engines and range it would make sense for the 200 to be selected as well. How much range will a 100F have should someone convert one? Also, would this carrier have a fleet of 733 or 721F?

Hunter
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Lumberton
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:44 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 15):
Question : Where will they come from ?

IMO, that is THE question.

Quoting Scarebus03 (Reply 16):
The older -200's are still worth a pretty penny in lease rates due to the current market demand and coupled with high cycles (as your article says) makes them unattractive for conversion.

Given Airbus' current backlog for new production pax models, the scarcity of -200s available for lease, this freighter program could well see significant delays until the additional production (i.e., 40 per month) comes on line.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:03 am

It wouldn't be the -100 series, as there were only 21 built and among the first A320s built. These passenger-to-freighter conversions are all -200 series.
Could it be UPS is the 1st customer for the A320F?
Regards.
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LTU932
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:09 am

Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 19):
Could it be UPS is the 1st customer for the A320F?

Something tells me the first customer could be FX. I don't see 5X going back to operating narrowbody aircraft smaller than the 757s, since they phased out their 727QFs.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:15 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 15):
Yes of course these 30 + 18 frames are conversion from pax aircraft, thus second hand planes.

what a bummer they didn't get any engines with the deal  Smile

I wish anetters would quit misusing the term "frames" for used aircraft, you don't buy the engine seperately. they are buying Aircraft or Airplanes no just the frames.
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zeke
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:45 am

The two models that are being looked at are the A320PF and the A321PF, both will feature a 86"x121" forward main deck cargo door, AFAIK the A320-200 and A321-100/200 will be converted to a freighter, but not the A320-100.

The A320PF has the following characteristics

MTOW 73.5 to 77.0 t
MLW 64.5 to 66 t
MZFW 60.5 to 62.5 t
Structural payload 21 to 23 t
Fuel 23860 l
Engine CFM56-5A or V2500

ULDs

Main deck : 10x 88x125x82
Lower deck : 7 LD-3-45W (60.4x61.5x45")

Range

2250 nm @ 73.5 t MTOW
2600 nm @ 77.0 t MTOW

500 nm sector comparison to similar class freighters

A320PF 17.3 t
B734SF 14.8 t plus 23% additional cash operating cost
B733SF 13.0 t plus 38% additional cash operating cost

The A321PF has the following characteristics

MTOW 83.0 to 89.0 t
MLW 73.5 to 75.5 t
MZFW 69.5 to 71.5 t
Structural payload 25.5 to 27.5 t
Fuel 23860 l
Engine CFM56-5B or V2500

ULDs

Main deck : 13 x 88x125x82
Lower deck : 10 x LD-3-45W (60.4x61.5x45")

Range

1825 nm @ 83.0 t MTOW
2175 nm @ 89.0 t MTOW

500 nm sector comparison to similar class freighters
A321PF payload 22.7 t
B752SF 23.2 t plus 23% additional cash operating cost
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gunsontheroof
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:48 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 21):

I wish anetters would quit misusing the term "frames" for used aircraft, you don't buy the engine seperately. they are buying Aircraft or Airplanes no just the frames.

Well, it's no secret that you're picky about semantics...not a big deal to most of us.

It'd be nice if FedEx, UPS or DHL picked some of these up, I'd like to see these frames on finals at my local airports on a regular basis!
Picked a hell of a week to quit sniffing glue.
 
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zeke
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:54 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 21):

I wish anetters would quit misusing the term "frames" for used aircraft, you don't buy the engine separately. they are buying Aircraft or Airplanes no just the frames.

You are incorrect, many airlines do in fact do that, buy or lease engines and/or APU separately.
“Don't be a show-off. Never be too proud to turn back. There are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots.” E. Hamilton Lee, 1949
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:56 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 23):
Well, it's no secret that you're picky about semantics...not a big deal to most of us.

I am not picky, I just dumbfounded when aviation enthusiasts use incorrect terms like "finals" and this case, "frames"  Smile


cheers
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itsnotfinals
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:16 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 24):
You are incorrect, many airlines do in fact do that, buy or lease engines and/or APU separately.

You are not quite correct. When you purchase the plane you need to purchase the engines at the same time on a used aircraft. Since I have purchased several transport aircraft in my lifetime I can tell you no bank is going to take a lien position on an un-airworthy aircraft and without engines that is what you have. Yes, you may finance the "parts" seperately, but each lienholder will require that their financial instrument have covenants that require the aircraft they are apart of to be airworthy at all times.

Typically when you buy a used aircraft for instance the engine reserves paid in for maintenance are in escrow and go with the plane.

Even when buying a new aircraft from a manufacturer, you can't take possession of the aircraft until it has engines, even if they are leased elsewhere, you would be in violation of your covenants to not have a complete "aircraft" on the primary lease or loan.

if it can fly it is a airplane or aircraft, not a frame!

[Edited 2007-09-06 02:23:33]
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lotsamiles
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:58 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 26):
You are not quite correct. When you purchase the plane you need to purchase the engines at the same time on a used aircraft.

Actually, many aircraft are sold without engines. FedEx is selling two A310's this way right now. Your point on financing is valid but you can always pay cash...

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 26):
Typically when you buy a used aircraft for instance the engine reserves paid in for maintenance are in escrow and go with the plane.

This is up to the seller. Sometimes they will keep the reserves and this has to be reflected in the price as the buyer will eventually be stuck with a shortfall up the next qualifying event.

My guess on the launch customer is TNT. Only the large integrators have the money to pay what it takes to get this kind of freighter in today's market. Otherwise it may be a lessor with a large position in older A320's.

When aircraft values and lease rates eventually cycle back then we will see more replacements for 727-200F's with equipment such as the A320F and 757-200SF.

Regards,
Lotsamiles
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:20 am

Quoting Lotsamiles (Reply 27):
Actually, many aircraft are sold without engines. FedEx is selling two A310's this way right now. Your point on financing is valid but you can always pay cash...

thats exactly why I said bank financing. I know you can buy an airframe, but that isn't what this thread is about.   Any airline that pays cash for an airplane is not too bright though.

Quoting Lotsamiles (Reply 27):
This is up to the seller. Sometimes they will keep the reserves and this has to be reflected in the price as the buyer will eventually be stuck with a shortfall up the next qualifying event.

That would be pretty useless though since it makes the aircraft a lot more marketable becuase you are basically wiping out the engine depreciation. You would get a much better sale by conveying the reserrves versus taking the cash out of escrow.

I had a chance to look into purchasing some 727's in Austrailia that were "where is as is" for a client back in the 90's but we steered very clear of them  

[Edited 2007-09-06 03:37:45]
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monteycarlos
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:42 pm

One of the benefits of having an A320 freighter is in the ability for it to carry a modified LD3 in the lower deck. This makes it quite useful for bulk load trans-ships for operators over the 733SF or 734SF's.

As Zeke stated:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 22):
Main deck : 10x 88x125x82
Lower deck : 7 LD-3-45W (60.4x61.5x45")



Quoting Zeke (Reply 22):
Main deck : 13 x 88x125x82
Lower deck : 10 x LD-3-45W (60.4x61.5x45")

If I'm not mistaken, that will enable the A321 to carry 13 AAA containers (I would suspect some of the positions to be only for a modified weight AAA) giving it a large advantage over the 727-200LRF's which can only carry 12 (with one modified) with a payload of approximately 2-3 tonnes more?

Cost is an issue here - any A320 due for cargo conversion will probably need a 'C' check before and then the door modification. The frame cost, maintenance check and the subsequent door mod will be very costly.
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warszawa
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:37 pm

My guess is DHL (Europe Division), or Fedex here in the USA.

UPS hasnt the need for 320's (domestic capacity is fine for now - if anything they'd obtain more 757's or 767's for their domestic network). DHL here in the USA is fine (ABX Air certainly wont be replacing their DC-9's with A320's, and they're mainly concerned about obtaining more 762ER's - Astar Air Cargo has no need for 320's in the US, despite slowly retiring the A300B2's). ABX Air retired their DC-86's except a couple (only one operates scheduled flights, ILN-DTW-ILN 5x weekly night ops) - the 320's wouldn't replace these.

Whats the deal with Fedex's 757's? As far as I remember, that one 752' they obtained is still sitting in MEM, parked, no conversion, and of course no repaint. Anyone know the schedule on that aircraft?

Part of me believes Fedex may be leaning toward the 320's now as the primary 727 replacement, but will still add some (though scarce and difficult to obtain) 757's to their fleet. Capacity wise, the 320 would more resemble the 727's capacity. The 757, slightly overkill in some markets currently served by Fedex 727's (including my own market, FNT).

TNT, ehh, doubtful they're expanding -that- significantly to justify such an amount of 320F's, so no.
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ThePRGuy
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:34 pm

Quote:
A320-200 LGWs are worth about $12 million for a frame delivered in 1988 or $15 million for one delivered in 1990.



But why would they want an ancient aircraft as part of a new conversion service?

Are these aircraft going to be new off the production line and converted, or are they used and "done with airline" models?

Alex
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mauriceb
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:51 pm

If i could bet i would bet on TNT, because they are rapidly expanding, and at the moment they fly 2 different types of narrow body's, 10 737-300's, and 16 Avro jets, which makes 26, 30 A320's makes perfect sence in that case. It would be cheaper to fly 1 type which is some what bigger then the 2 they are flying, + they are having some trouble with the 737's lately.

All the other airlines actually don't need the A320's at the moment.

FX orderd the 757 as an 727 replacement
UPS isn't likely to go to quite small cargo planes, its just not theire biggest segment.
DHL doesn't need the A320 at the moment.as the bigger 757's are doing fine.
 
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zeke
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:13 pm

The 320PF/321PF are only due to enter service 2010, either new 320 or 321 frames would be available then, to get a new airframe now, you would need to get the 321PF.

The 319/321 line in XFW does not have as much of a backlog as the 320 line in TLS.
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:14 pm

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columba
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:57 pm

Quoting FCKC (Reply 15):
I will not be surprised if the first A320s from Lufthansa will get a second live as freighters.

Well LH has just ordered a batch of new A319s, A320s and A321s and they will not only replace older 737s but also the first A320s so older LH aircraft will be on the market soon.

Quoting Warszawa (Reply 30):
My guess is DHL (Europe Division), or Fedex here in the USA.

UPS hasnt the need for 320's (domestic capacity is fine for now - if anything they'd obtain more 757's or 767's for their domestic network). DHL here in the USA is fine (ABX Air certainly wont be replacing their DC-9's with A320's, and they're mainly concerned about obtaining more 762ER's - Astar Air Cargo has no need for 320's in the US, despite slowly retiring the A300B2's). ABX Air retired their DC-86's except a couple (only one operates scheduled flights, ILN-DTW-ILN 5x weekly night ops) - the 320's wouldn't replace these.

Whats the deal with Fedex's 757's? As far as I remember, that one 752' they obtained is still sitting in MEM, parked, no conversion, and of course no repaint. Anyone know the schedule on that aircraft?

Part of me believes Fedex may be leaning toward the 320's now as the primary 727 replacement, but will still add some (though scarce and difficult to obtain) 757's to their fleet. Capacity wise, the 320 would more resemble the 727's capacity. The 757, slightly overkill in some markets currently served by Fedex 727's (including my own market, FNT).

TNT, ehh, doubtful they're expanding -that- significantly to justify such an amount of 320F's, so no.

You seem to be right. I believe too that the 757 is too big to replace the 727 on many routes so a mixed 757F and A320F fleet seem to be the best option for Fedex.
The number of aircraft ordered suggest either Fedex or UPS being the customer.
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Stitch
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:08 pm

Quoting ThePRGuy (Reply 31):
But why would they want an ancient aircraft as part of a new conversion service?

Because they're inexpensive to purchase. The conversion cost will add a few million and then the plane needs to generate positive revenue. And even "ancient" A320s are still mighty good planes, even with high cycle times on them, provided they were kept in good mechanical condition (which the ones chosen for conversion likely were).

Quote:
Are these aircraft going to be new off the production line and converted, or are they used and "done with airline" models?

The latter, since it makes better economic sense.
 
columba
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:11 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 36):
Because they're inexpensive to purchase. The conversion cost will add a few million and then the plane needs to generate positive revenue. And even "ancient" A320s are still mighty good planes, even with high cycle times on them, provided they were kept in good mechanical condition (which the ones chosen for conversion likely were).

I think after the conversion the fuselage will be as good as a new build and the high cycles do not matter since there are many contructional changes done on it.
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MCOflyer
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:18 pm

My money is on FX or TNT being the customer for these a/c. Also one other aspect would be for used a/c for freighter conversions in big numbers which believes me to believe it is for FX or TNT.

Hunter
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:18 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 37):
I think after the conversion the fuselage will be as good as a new build and the high cycles do not matter since there are many contructional changes done on it.

I wouldn't quite go that far, but I will agree with you that after a conversion and C or D check, the new operators of an A320PF should see a decade or more of reliable service from their planes. Al airframes last only so long, even when maintained properly, but indeed these planes will not be "rust buckets" when they're chosen for conversion.  thumbsup 
 
Baron52ta
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:52 am

RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:28 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 20):
Something tells me the first customer could be FX

Based on a conversation I've had re FedEx getting them new Fred Smith has said the 320 would be a nice addition to the fleet but to expensive at the moment so if FX gets them it would be old frames converted
 
AmtrakGuy
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:39 am

What about NWA? They're letting go some of their older A320 (lease planes?) -- since NWA flies all their freights on 747F, could they need smaller planes to make the final delivery from their Freight Hubs (MSP, ANC, NRT, and AMS)?
 
cancidas
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:30 am

Quoting Tjwgrr (Reply 34):


Modified Airliner Photos:

Design © JALopezR

why would there be two doors on the A320F? you don't need a door on the aft cabin, there wouldn't even be enough room to get a loader in there. one door aft of L1 would be enough, especially since the airplane isn't THAT long.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
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Stitch
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:01 am

Quoting Cancidas (Reply 42):
why would there be two doors on the A320F? you don't need a door on the aft cabin, there wouldn't even be enough room to get a loader in there. one door aft of L1 would be enough, especially since the airplane isn't THAT long.

Well these are just folks playing around with a graphics program, not a formal presentation.  Wink
 
FXMD11
Posts: 172
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:34 am

Could it be for the new airline DPWN/ DHL and Lufthansa is going to establish? This pure freighter setup will be called NEWCO and is most likely home based in LEJ, DHL's new European Hub. Looking at the quantity and options this would make sense.
 
columba
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:43 am

Quoting FXMD11 (Reply 44):
Could it be for the new airline DPWN/ DHL and Lufthansa is going to establish? This pure freighter setup will be called NEWCO and is most likely home based in LEJ, DHL's new European Hub. Looking at the quantity and options this would make sense

"Newco" is just the working title it stands for "new company". The airline will have a different name.
The airline is supposed to fly long distance flights and the aircraft that are being evaluated are 777Fs and 747Fs.
The rumor is that decison is already done in favor for the 777F but this is just a rumor.
DHL might be a possible customer for the A320F though for intra European routes.
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ThePRGuy
Posts: 1833
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 36):

Because they're inexpensive to purchase. The conversion cost will add a few million and then the plane needs to generate positive revenue. And even "ancient" A320s are still mighty good planes, even with high cycle times on them, provided they were kept in good mechanical condition (which the ones chosen for conversion likely were).

Yes, I understand this, hence snapping up the 757s 10 years ago. Simple fact is there aren't that many A320s lying about waiting to be picked up.

Alex
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LTU932
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RE: 1st A320F Customer : 30 + 18 Frames.

Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:11 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 45):
"Newco" is just the working title it stands for "new company". The airline will have a different name.
The airline is supposed to fly long distance flights and the aircraft that are being evaluated are 777Fs and 747Fs.

Wasn't ER also considering the A380 for "Newco" before it was cancelled? I believe they even wanted to build a maintenance hangar in LEJ for the A380.
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