PYP757
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CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:56 am

Last April, I was excited to see that CO had dedicated their newest 777 on the EWR-BRU route. I have just reserved a flight for the beginning of November, and was surprised to see that the plane will be a 764, as it used to be before April. Is this change only temporary, reflecting lower demand in the winter months, or was the introduction of a 777 on this route a disappointment for CO? Will they switch back to a 777 next Spring/Summer?
 
David
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:49 am

They need a 777 for the new Newark-Bombay service
 
ikramerica
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:34 am

I flew the EWR-BRU on the 777 this summer. It was the easiest way to get to europe on an award J ticket...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
PYP757
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:47 am

Quoting David (Reply 1):
They need a 777 for the new Newark-Bombay service

Thanks for the info. I see that this was indeed discussed in a recent thread ("Is CO On The Verge Of Being A True "intl" Airline?"). So this is likely to be a permanent change. I am a little disappointed, as I thought the BRU route was quite popular and successful. Looks to me like CO needs to get themselves a few more 777s!
 
AirplaneFan
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:52 am

Quoting PYP757 (Reply 3):
Looks to me like CO needs to get themselves a few more 777s!

Don't get mad. Wink
Hopefully one of the new Boeing 787's will replace the Boeing 767-400ER on this route when they enter service.
I GOT YOUR SIX
 
PYP757
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:28 pm

Quoting AirplaneFan (Reply 4):
Don't get mad. 
Hopefully one of the new Boeing 787's will replace the Boeing 767-400ER on this route when they enter service.

Now that I cannot wait to see!!
By the way, did CO order any dreamliners yet?
 
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STT757
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:36 pm

Quoting PYP757 (Reply 3):
as I thought the BRU route was quite popular and successful. Looks to me like CO needs to get themselves a few more 777s!

EWR-BRU has been and continues to be one of CO's most lucrative Trans-Atlantic routes, the 777-200ER was needed to launch EWR-BOM which starts Oct 1st.

Quoting PYP757 (Reply 5):
By the way, did CO order any dreamliners yet?

CO was one of the first airlines to commit to the 787, when CO placed their order in 2004 it was still known as the 7E7. CO has 25 firm orders (8 787-8s, 17 787-9s), the first start arriving in 2009.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Nimish
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 3:04 pm

Quoting PYP757 (Thread starter):
Is this change only temporary, reflecting lower demand in the winter months, or was the introduction of a 777 on this route a disappointment for CO? Will they switch back to a 777 next Spring/Summer?



Quoting STT757 (Reply 6):
EWR-BRU has been and continues to be one of CO's most lucrative Trans-Atlantic routes

I'm guessing 9W's launch of a hub at BRU with daily 77W/332 flights to both EWR and JFK will have a significant impact on the yields/loads on the NYC-BRU sector. I doubt if EWR-BRU will remain CO's most lucrative trans-atlantic route - due to the increased competition on the sector! Other than the FFP base that CO has, 9W has a huge advantage as it's offering a superior Y/J and F product on the sector.
Incredible India!
 
dutchjet
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:24 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 7):
I'm guessing 9W's launch of a hub at BRU with daily 77W/332 flights to both EWR and JFK will have a significant impact on the yields/loads on the NYC-BRU sector.

You are guessing so so wrong on this....9W is moving only a handful of pax on the BRU-USA routes, almost all of their passengers are flying between North America and India and some do/will utilize the mini-hub at BRU, but there is very little BRU-North America traffic. I have been told less than 20-30 passengers on an average day board 9W flights in BRU bound for the US, and this is 9W's plan. They are not even advertising in the local market.

Quoting Nimish (Reply 7):
I doubt if EWR-BRU will remain CO's most lucrative trans-atlantic route - due to the increased competition on the sector!

Wrong again. EWR-BRU is one of CO's best performing transatlantic routes and CO has an huge following in the BRU area with many lucrative contracts for the route. CO outperforms on this route - by the way, look for DL to try a 752 on the route in the coming winter periods.

Quoting PYP757 (Thread starter):
Last April, I was excited to see that CO had dedicated their newest 777 on the EWR-BRU route.

The new 777s were NOT dedicated to the route.....while ships 19 and 20 have made their appearances at BRU, each and every CO 772 has paid a visit to BRU this summer including Peter Max. CO does not dedicate airplanes to any particular route.

Quoting PYP757 (Thread starter):
I have just reserved a flight for the beginning of November, and was surprised to see that the plane will be a 764, as it used to be before April. Is this change only temporary, reflecting lower demand in the winter months, or was the introduction of a 777 on this route a disappointment for CO? Will they switch back to a 777 next Spring/Summer?

The 777 on EWR-BRU was a one time thing....CO had extra 777 capacity due to the delivery of the new airplanes and BRU used the capacity. The route always was to revert to a 764ER for the winter, and next summer, there is a rumor that a second flights with a 752 will be added to the schedule. (The ""Brussels 764"" operated to Geneva this summer, by the way.)

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
I flew the EWR-BRU on the 777 this summer. It was the easiest way to get to europe on an award J ticket...

You keep saying this, and historically, nothing can be further from the truth. In general, BRU-EWR is one of the most difficult routes to get a reward ticket on, check with CO's reservations and stats if you doubt my statement. This summer, during certain weeks in July and early August, there was less demand in BF because of reduced biz travel (Belgium, like France, is "closed" during July and most of August) and less seats were used under CO's contracts for the routes.....that happens every year; this summer, that dip combined with the 48/50 biz seats on the route (instead of the normal 35) allowed pax to burn miles on this route. If you want futher info, IM me, I have stats which I will not post here. In general, EWR-BRU goes out with 35/35 revenue pax in BF except on Tuesdays and Wednesdays for most of the year. Your good experience with the route is NOT the rule.

Quoting PYP757 (Reply 5):
By the way, did CO order any dreamliners yet?

Yes.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 6):


CO was one of the first airlines to commit to the 787, when CO placed their order in 2004 it was still known as the 7E7. CO has 25 firm orders (8 787-8s, 17 787-9s), the first start arriving in 2009

Look for additional orders to be announced.....CO may have more 787s on order than we think.
 
Nimish
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:11 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 8):
You are guessing so so wrong on this....9W is moving only a handful of pax on the BRU-USA routes, almost all of their passengers are flying between North America and India and some do/will utilize the mini-hub at BRU, but there is very little BRU-North America traffic. I have been told less than 20-30 passengers on an average day board 9W flights in BRU bound for the US, and this is 9W's plan. They are not even advertising in the local market.

OK - I assume from the vehemence in your post that you're basing this on actual knowledge - it's good to learn something new every day!

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 8):
Wrong again. EWR-BRU is one of CO's best performing transatlantic routes and CO has an huge following in the BRU area with many lucrative contracts for the route. CO outperforms on this route - by the way, look for DL to try a 752 on the route in the coming winter periods.

Good luck to CO and their best performing route! Do you know whether its mainly Americans coming to BRU on work, or is it mainly Belgians going to NYC on work?
Incredible India!
 
PYP757
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:23 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 9):
Good luck to CO and their best performing route! Do you know whether its mainly Americans coming to BRU on work, or is it mainly Belgians going to NYC on work?

In my case, it is a Belgian working in the US going to Belgium for work or just visit family!
 
lumumba
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:12 pm

Hi dutchjet.
They did a BIG advertising campaign here for there new flight's.
I also think that you have a big market here to the USA don't forget that it's not only Brussels it goo's from North of France to The Netherlands and a part of Germany.
Regards
Patrice
 
panamair
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:22 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 8):
CO outperforms on this route - by the way, look for DL to try a 752 on the route in the coming winter periods.

While it's true that DL does the worst of all the US carriers on the BRU-NYC route, don't forget that EWR is CO's only gateway from BRU (it's the only flight CO has out of BRU and hence carries all of its O&D and beyond-EWR connecting traffic on that one flight). DL splits its BRU-USA traffic over two gateways (JFK and ATL) and naturally ATL gets the lion's share of traffic in the market.
The other carrier to have dual US gateways ex-BRU is AA (JFK and ORD) but AA benefits quite a bit from its SN codeshares/feed on the BRU end.....
 
PYP757
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:00 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 12):
While it's true that DL does the worst of all the US carriers on the BRU-NYC route, don't forget that EWR is CO's only gateway from BRU (it's the only flight CO has out of BRU and hence carries all of its O&D and beyond-EWR connecting traffic on that one flight). DL splits its BRU-USA traffic over two gateways (JFK and ATL) and naturally ATL gets the lion's share of traffic in the market.
The other carrier to have dual US gateways ex-BRU is AA (JFK and ORD) but AA benefits quite a bit from its SN codeshares/feed on the BRU end.....

But couldn't the success of CO on that route also be linked to its superior product? Friends of mine recently flew BRU-JFK on AA and had to content with an older generation 767 with poor IFE (no PTVs). I know it doesn't matter to some, but on a 7-hours flight I do enjoy watching a movie or two! And when comparing prices, CO always comes up cheaper on the direct New York - Brussels route.
 
dutchjet
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:15 pm

Quoting Panamair (Reply 12):
While it's true that DL does the worst of all the US carriers on the BRU-NYC route, don't forget that EWR is CO's only gateway from BRU (it's the only flight CO has out of BRU and hence carries all of its O&D and beyond-EWR connecting traffic on that one flight). DL splits its BRU-USA traffic over two gateways (JFK and ATL) and naturally ATL gets the lion's share of traffic in the market

Very true........DL sends a lot of traffic (especially connecting traffic) on the ATL flights while the JFK flight is a bit more O&D oriented. DL may downgrade the BRU-JFK flight to a 752 which would right-size the route, especially during the slower winter periods.....a smart move.

Quoting PYP757 (Reply 13):
But couldn't the success of CO on that route also be linked to its superior product?

Nope........dont overplay the importance of IFE, most pax dont have a clue when booking.

Quoting PYP757 (Reply 13):
And when comparing prices, CO always comes up cheaper on the direct New York - Brussels route.

Always? Odd.....CO has the strongest yeilds from the 3 US carriers on the BRU-NYC route your conclusion is rather unusual.

Quoting Lumumba (Reply 11):
They did a BIG advertising campaign here for there new flight's.

Concerning service to India......

Quoting Lumumba (Reply 11):
I also think that you have a big market here to the USA don't forget that it's not only Brussels it goo's from North of France to The Netherlands and a part of Germany.

All carriers benefit from BRU location, not just 9W.......and surprsingly. very few French. Dutch and German pax are BRU oriented even though BRU is closer to much of the NL population than AMS is.
 
dutchjet
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting Nimish (Reply 9):
Good luck to CO and their best performing route! Do you know whether its mainly Americans coming to BRU on work, or is it mainly Belgians going to NYC on work?

BRU-EWR is not CO's best performing route...its one of their stronger performing routes and its does better than most other TATL routes. The route (in general) is more EU based pax and lots and lots of pax working for multi-nationals travelling between US and EUropean offices, also consider NATO.

Quoting Nimish (Reply 9):
OK - I assume from the vehemence in your post that you're basing this on actual knowledge - it's good to learn something new every day!

Yes, I am.
 
Eirules
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 15):
BRU-EWR is not CO's best performing route

What is their best performing T/A route then?
The way you cut your meat reflects the way you live....
 
ScottishLaddie
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:48 pm

Quoting EIRules (Reply 16):

What is their best performing T/A route then?

Dutchjet can correct me on this, but from what I've been told from within CO if I remember rightly:

IAH-LGW
EWR-TLV
EWR-DEL

...rate as CO's most profitable routes.
 
PYP757
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:31 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 14):
Always? Odd.....CO has the strongest yeilds from the 3 US carriers on the BRU-NYC route your conclusion is rather unusual.

I agree with you that this is unusual. Maybe this is only true when booking from the US. When I compare prices on expedia or travelocity, to mention just those 2, CO always comes up cheaper that DL or AA, but sometimes by just a few dollars. Could it be that CO has better load factors on its planes on this route, allowing them to be slightly cheaper?
 
COEI2007
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting ScottishLaddie (Reply 17):
Dutchjet can correct me on this, but from what I've been told from within CO if I remember rightly:

IAH-LGW
EWR-TLV
EWR-DEL

...rate as CO's most profitable routes.

MAN and DUB do well too. Its a pity DUB looses the 762, but at least they get two daily 752's!
 
ScottishLaddie
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:18 am

Quoting COEI2007 (Reply 19):
MAN and DUB do well too. Its a pity DUB looses the 762, but at least they get two daily 752's!

MAN is quite low yield I've seen a few occasions this summer when CO101 has gone out with just 1 Bizfirst passenger. I'd rate EDI as higher yielding than MAN these days. If CO can spare at B762 there's been talk here of it going on the first EDI flight next summer as the B752 isn't providing enough capacity in Bizfirst most days.
 
letsgetwet
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:31 am

How do do the German flts (FRA, HAM, CGN, TXL) compare?
 
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fanoftristars
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:38 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 8):
You keep saying this, and historically, nothing can be further from the truth. In general, BRU-EWR is one of the most difficult routes to get a reward ticket on

I easily found seats in Business First last May for this route using Delta Skymiles. CO BRU-EWR, DL EWR-SLC. I ended up switching to fly home from Frankfurt through JFK at the last minute, but some friends of mine that were in Europe at the same time (we were there for a wedding in Germany) flew home on the same CO flight the following day, using Delta Skymiles. Maybe CO saves seats just for DL frequent flyers, huh? lol

Anyway, now that the summer is over and we're back to business, you'll be glad to know that if CO flyers can't get a seat on the 764/777, then they can always drive to JFK and fly delta, who is showing 14 days in October with Business Elite availability at SkySaver rates. GO DELTA! lol
"FLY DELTA JETS"
 
dutchjet
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:59 am

Quoting ScottishLaddie (Reply 17):
Dutchjet can correct me on this, but from what I've been told from within CO if I remember rightly:

IAH-LGW
EWR-TLV
EWR-DEL

Not exactly right......consider that CO's flights to Asia also do quite well.

Quoting COEI2007 (Reply 19):
MAN and DUB do well too. Its a pity DUB looses the 762, but at least they get two daily 752's!

DUB and MAN do well with respect to loads, yeilds and J class demand are below average.

Quoting ScottishLaddie (Reply 20):
If CO can spare at B762 there's been talk here of it going on the first EDI flight next summer

I have heard that CO would like to get a 764 on the EDI route next year.....time will tell, there may be some changes in the schedule next summer that will allow this to happen.

Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 21):
How do do the German flts (FRA, HAM, CGN, TXL) compare?

Good but not great yeilds; CO is making money on these flights and they have met targets. By the way, EK operating on the JFK-HAM route has had virtually no impact on CO's performance on the route and the same will likely be true with Jet entering the BRU-NYC markets. As EK or Jet cannot really provide effecient connections beyond NYC, they are basically limited to O&D traffic .......as for Jet, they much more focused on moving pax between India and the US and would much rather sell a seat from Bombay to Newark via Brussels than just BRU-EWR, thus, they will not a big player in the market, nor do they want to be.

Quoting Fanoftristars (Reply 22):
Maybe CO saves seats just for DL frequent flyers, huh? lol

Yes, thats exactly how CO manages their reward inventory. Seriously, BRU-EWR is not an easy route for reward travel in BF.....seats are limited during most times of the year.

Quoting Fanoftristars (Reply 22):
Anyway, now that the summer is over and we're back to business, you'll be glad to know that if CO flyers can't get a seat on the 764/777, then they can always drive to JFK and fly delta, who is showing 14 days in October with Business Elite availability at SkySaver rates. GO DELTA! lol

You consider this good news as a DL fan? That DL has to give away its premium cabin on a route is a very very troubling sign and an indication that the rumors that DL will downgauge BRU-EWR to a 752 may come true very shortly.
 
COEI2007
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 23):
DUB and MAN do well with respect to loads, yeilds and J class demand are below average.

DUB generally has high J loads, although the flight is operated with a 752, so there is only 16 seats to fill! I think DUB in general isnt a huge J market for any airline.
 
dutchjet
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting COEI2007 (Reply 24):
DUB generally has high J loads, although the flight is operated with a 752, so there is only 16 seats to fill! I think DUB in general isnt a huge J market for any airline.

Exactly......that is why DUB is served with the 752; with only 16 BF seats, CO can keep those seats filled.

You are right, the J market between the US and DUB is not huge, but it is growing and is now much better than it was in the past when flights to Ireland were all about VFR and leisure pax.....the huge growth in the Irish economy has changed this to a certain extent.
 
fun2fly
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:18 am

I fly EWR>BRU 3+ times per year and have enjoyed both the 764 and 777. Loads were crazy high this year, even with more competition from NW, US, and 9W. As NW found out, not that easy to break into the BRU market, not sure how US is doing. If the 777 flight did this well, I would certainly not be suprised to see CO add capacity via a seasonal 752 next summer (like this summer's additions to LIS, MAD, etc). as they will not have the 777 available. If the extra 13 BF seats were full on the 777, then the 16 752 BF seats could be a good fit. The 752 has the range and some are coming available in 2008 when the 739's come along. But make no mistake, CO will only add this capacity if it's profitable.
 
gigneil
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:19 am

This is sorta a "duh" thread.

Of course they're downsizing to Europe for the winter schedule.

NS
 
ScottishLaddie
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:23 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 23):
I have heard that CO would like to get a 764 on the EDI route next year.....time will tell, there may be some changes in the schedule next summer that will allow this to happen.

That's interesting, a B764 would be a bit of a squeeze at EDI on the gates CO use and I'm not sure if that would be slight overkill on top of the B752 on the 2nd flight. I'd of thought 1 B762 and 1 B752 would be the ideal situation and that's what we were expecting at EDI. Will be interesting to see how that develops though.
 
dutchjet
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:33 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 27):
Of course they're downsizing to Europe for the winter schedule.

The EWR-BRU has operated with the same aircraft/one flight per day schedule in both the summer and winter seasons since CO introduced the route back in 1999...the 777 for the summer 2007 schedule was the first seasonal upgrade for the route and, as mentioned, was due to CO accepting delivery of new 772ERs (one in March and another over the summer months). It was never expected that the 772ER would remain year round (the newly delivered 772ERs were ordered for PVG which CO did not get and instead will operate to BOM).....and this summer was a one off thing. As for next summer, a second EWR-BRU flight with a 752 may be added, it too soon to tell.

Quoting ScottishLaddie (Reply 28):
That's interesting, a B764 would be a bit of a squeeze at EDI on the gates CO use and I'm not sure if that would be slight overkill on top of the B752 on the 2nd flight. I'd of thought 1 B762 and 1 B752 would be the ideal situation and that's what we were expecting at EDI. Will be interesting to see how that develops though

The chat (and its just chat) is that EWR-EDI would go daily 764 but only one flight per day would operate on the route.
 
GUAMVICE
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting COEI2007 (Reply 19):
Dutchjet can correct me on this, but from what I've been told from within CO if I remember rightly:

IAH-LGW
EWR-TLV
EWR-DEL

...rate as CO's most profitable routes.

Call me biased, but from what I've heard from a number of F/As on the route, GUM-HNL is a major revenue-generating route and keeps CO going.
The two most engaging powers of a photographer are to make new things familiar and to make familiar things new. ~Thacker
 
dutchjet
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 2:50 am

Quoting GuamVICE (Reply 30):
Call me biased, but from what I've heard from a number of F/As on the route, GUM-HNL is a major revenue-generating route and keeps CO going.

GUM-HNL is a star performer.....service in and out of the GUM hub is very profitable in general.

Does the GUM-HNL route keep CO going? Hardly. Talk about a huge exaggeration.
 
GUAMVICE
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 31):
Does the GUM-HNL route keep CO going? Hardly. Talk about a huge exaggeration

I figured. Trying to non-rev out of GUM is a pain in the @$$ though so I didn't dismiss the assertion; nevertheless, I can see how F/As on the route would boast  Smile
The two most engaging powers of a photographer are to make new things familiar and to make familiar things new. ~Thacker
 
ScottishLaddie
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:27 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 29):
The chat (and its just chat) is that EWR-EDI would go daily 764 but only one flight per day would operate on the route.

I had a feeling you were going to say that. Hmm I'm not sure if that's best for the route, nor would it be as easy to adjust the schedule given that 2x daily B752s are what's already on sale it would be much easier to simply upgrade the first flight to a B762. Interesting chat anyway, would be great if you could keep me updated if you hear anymore.

Quoting GuamVICE (Reply 30):
Call me biased, but from what I've heard from a number of F/As on the route, GUM-HNL is a major revenue-generating route

That flight always looks to be jam packed so I can believe that.
 
dutchjet
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RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting ScottishLaddie (Reply 33):
. Hmm I'm not sure if that's best for the route, nor would it be as easy to adjust the schedule given that 2x daily B752s are what's already on sale it would be much easier to simply upgrade the first flight to a B762.

The 764 has very different operating economics than the 762.....operating one 764 daily would be much more economical than the current schedule.....thats why its being considered. As for advanced reservations, its not a relevant issue, the early bookings for next summer can simply be rebooked.

I can tell you that a 762+752 schedule will not be happening.
 
lumumba
Posts: 361
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 7:16 pm

RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 3:54 am

HI Dutchjet.
They did the Same advertising for Toronto and New york in al Newspapers(the major one).
Regards
Patrice

[Edited 2007-09-07 20:55:48]
 
ScottishLaddie
Posts: 2309
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:30 am

RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:13 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 34):
The 764 has very different operating economics than the 762.....operating one 764 daily would be much more economical than the current schedule.....thats why its being considered. As for advanced reservations, its not a relevant issue, the early bookings for next summer can simply be rebooked.

I can tell you that a 762+752 schedule will not be happening.

Interesting. The B764 would still give a slight increase in overall J seats over the 2 B752s, which is what this route needs. There is very rarely the need for the 350 Y seats that the 2 B752s bring, it's J capacity that needs to be increased for next summer, even with DL on JFK who aren't expected to impact CO much at all.
Assuming they'd want to bring this in for the start of the summer schedule (or when it currently goes to 2x daily at the beginning of May), that doesn't give them much time to make this decision if they want to minimise disruption to passenger's bookings.
Do you think this is now their favoured option for EDI, or is it more a case of their happy to go with 2 B752s but throw a daily B764 our way if there just happens to be one free (ala BRU and the B772 this summer)?
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:22 am

Quoting ScottishLaddie (Reply 36):
Assuming they'd want to bring this in for the start of the summer schedule (or when it currently goes to 2x daily at the beginning of May), that doesn't give them much time to make this decision if they want to minimise disruption to passenger's bookings.

The Summer 2008 schedules are very far from final.

Quoting ScottishLaddie (Reply 36):
that doesn't give them much time to make this decision if they want to minimise disruption to passenger's bookings

CO has lots of time....the disrupiton would be very very mininal to pax, simply a different departure/arrival time...and pax with connecting flights will be re-assigned new flights. You are putting far too much emphasis on this point; also consider that there are very very few advance reservations for flights for next summer at this early date.

Quoting ScottishLaddie (Reply 36):
Do you think this is now their favoured option for EDI, or is it more a case of their happy to go with 2 B752s but throw a daily B764 our way if there just happens to be one free (ala BRU and the B772 this summer)?

All that I can say is that its being looked at.......it all depends on aircraft allocations and which new routes CO decides to launch for the 2008 summer schedule. But the 764 does make sense for this route.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4197
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:32 am

Quoting PYP757 (Reply 13):
And when comparing prices, CO always comes up cheaper on the direct New York - Brussels route.

Probably because it's the opposite when it comes to connecting traffic. The guy who usually handles my bookings for our travel dept has commented many times that CO would usually cost quite a bit more than the other carriers, were it not for the corporate discount we get and, to one exception last year, I connect from somewhere else (generally DFW, IAH, DCA or LAS) to get on to EWR - BRU. For instance, on my next trip, CO is $3,000 more expensive than Delta, according to Farecast, and the trend is the same (with a smaller difference of course) in Y.

Quoting PYP757 (Reply 13):
But couldn't the success of CO on that route also be linked to its superior product?

Continental is very good, better than other US carriers (in my opinion) and several foreign carriers but I don't know that "superior" cuts it. I liked being a Lufthansa Senator better than I like being a Continental Platinum.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 15):
also consider NATO

Wouldn't that be UA's IAD - BRU ?

Quoting Fanoftristars (Reply 22):
I easily found seats in Business First last May for this route using Delta Skymiles.

Consider yourself lucky. I have several times been offered to give up my seat in exchange for flying another day or another carrier to or from BRU... I also take CO to CDG frequently and occasionally AMS, and I can't remember the cabin generally being fuller than on the BRU flights, nor have I been asked (yet) to give up my seat.

It surprises me every time as I would think CO would turn to their corporate contract flyers last to free up a seat.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 29):
The EWR-BRU has operated with the same aircraft/one flight per day schedule in both the summer and winter seasons since CO introduced the route back in 1999

I was under the strong impression (read I'm almost sure) the flight actually began with a 757.

Quoting Nimish (Reply 9):
Do you know whether its mainly Americans coming to BRU on work, or is it mainly Belgians going to NYC on work?

From the few onboard conversations I have had (I'm the quiet type), it seems to be the former rather than the latter. Lots of J&J employees. A few bureaucrats commuting between the UN and the EU as well (I thought JFK was more convenient to the UN).
All Hail King Donald
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:37 am

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 38):
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 15):
also consider NATO

Wouldn't that be UA's IAD - BRU ?

NYC is also a destination for NATO and diplomatic traffic, think UN.

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 38):
I was under the strong impression (read I'm almost sure) the flight actually began with a 757.

Actually, the route commenced with a DC10-30, then went to the 752, then to the 762ER (June 2001), back to the 752 after 9/11 (operating 6 days per week), the 762 returned by Christmas 2001, followed by the 764ER.......and now one summer only with the 772ER.

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 38):
Lots of J&J employees.

Huge contract.

Quoting BlueFlyer (Reply 38):
A few bureaucrats commuting between the UN and the EU as well (I thought JFK was more convenient to the UN).

The flight is popular with the UN crowd as well.
 
ScottishLaddie
Posts: 2309
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:30 am

RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:44 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 37):
The Summer 2008 schedules are very far from final.

I realise that.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 37):
CO has lots of time....the disrupiton would be very very mininal to pax, simply a different departure/arrival time...and pax with connecting flights will be re-assigned new flights. You are putting far too much emphasis on this point; also consider that there are very very few advance reservations for flights for next summer at this early date.

Maybe, but if the B764 was brought in from the start of the summer schedule you're already talking 6 months of bookings, which would all add up. But you're right, I suppose when you're used to seeing how your average pax reacts when their flight/connection has been changed by as little as a couple of hours you get a bit obsessed.  Wink

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 37):
All that I can say is that its being looked at.......it all depends on aircraft allocations and which new routes CO decides to launch for the 2008 summer schedule. But the 764 does make sense for this route.

We shall see what happens then, 150 Y seats per day is a lot to lose though just to gain 3 J seats. Especially with DL lurking with JFK. However, on the other hand CO could make a killing on cargo with DL ditching the B763, that thing's hold is always crammed full in the summer.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:51 am

It's not like the 764 is such a terrible aircraft anyway. There are some reasons to prefer the 764 over the 777. Seating configurations, for one thing. Nothing beats the 767 for that. The CO 764 is a fine ride by any standards.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15055
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:54 am

764 has better config at 2-3-2 and 32" pitch in Y. 777 has 31" pitch.

In J, the 777 is superior in terms of seat quality, but if you like the middle seat, the 764 is also nice. I also think the front of the 764 is quieter than the front of the 777.

The 777's are getting AVOD though, and the 764s aren't, at least not for a long while.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:55 am

Quoting ScottishLaddie (Reply 40):
Maybe, but if the B764 was brought in from the start of the summer schedule you're already talking 6 months of bookings, which would all add up.

6 months of bookings? Firstly, bookings dont open until 330 days in advance, and very few pax book more than 6 months out even for peak season travel. Its really not a big deal at all and all airlines deal with schedule/equipment changes all of the time.....for example, CO does not finalize any of its schedules until about 60 days prior to operation date and has been know to swap aircraft and cancel flights even closer in to the operation date. A few advance bookings is not going to influence CO's decision on the route.

Quoting ScottishLaddie (Reply 40):
We shall see what happens then, 150 Y seats per day is a lot to lose though just to gain 3 J seats.

I am not getting your math in Y.....the 764 has 200 coach seats compared to 159 on the 752 X 2 flights daily (did the second EDI flight operate daily this summer or 4 times per week?) is 318.......its a loss of 118 coach seats per day IF the CO were to operate 2 daily 752s against one daily 764.
 
blueflyer
Posts: 4197
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:06 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 39):
Actually, the route commenced with a DC10-30

Ah. Glad I missed that one. Never did like DC10s.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 39):
Huge contract.

I gathered. Rather obvious too, not too many companies have a dedicated check-in desk at their local airport. Some of my colleagues based at our US HQ are envious, but we're not even half the size of J&J so I'm not holding my breath.
All Hail King Donald
 
ScottishLaddie
Posts: 2309
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 8:30 am

RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:11 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 43):
6 months of bookings? Firstly, bookings dont open until 330 days in advance, and very few pax book more than 6 months out even for peak season travel. Its really not a big deal at all and all airlines deal with schedule/equipment changes all of the time.....for example, CO does not finalize any of its schedules until about 60 days prior to operation date and has been know to swap aircraft and cancel flights even closer in to the operation date. A few advance bookings is not going to influence CO's decision on the route.

Assuming nothing is going to happen in the immediate future you are looking at bookings between March and September 2008 atleast if the B764 was to come online from the very beginning of the summer schedule(granted not going to be a significant amount at this stage). However, as you state this is not a big deal and we shall lay it to rest as it's not going to affect CO's ultimate decision.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 43):
I am not getting your math in Y.....the 764 has 200 coach seats compared to 159 on the 752 X 2 flights daily (did the second EDI flight operate daily this summer or 4 times per week?) is 318.......its a loss of 118 coach seats per day IF the CO were to operate 2 daily 752s against one daily 764.

You're correct I was working with 175 which is, of course, the capacity of the aircraft, and not the right figure at all. 118 seats still remains a significant drop. AreCO willing to risk potentially handing that many pax to DL? Time will tell I suppose...
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3041
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:17 am

we all seem to be missing one giant piece in our top performing TATL flights!!!
 
747fan
Posts: 935
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:40 am

RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:40 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 42):
I also think the front of the 764 is quieter than the front of the 777.

Definitely true. CO 777's are GE90-powered, and although the deep, throaty, "air compressor" sound they have at takeoff power is awesome, they are noisy and have an irritating, high-pitched "howl." Meanwhile, the CF6's on CO's 764's are noticeably quieter up front - they sound more like a powerful, heavy-duty lawn mower and don't have an irritating whine.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 42):
The 777's are getting AVOD though, and the 764s aren't, at least not for a long while.

I thought the 767's (maybe only the 762's if any) and 757's were also getting AVOD. At least the 767's have PTV's in Y, unlike their own 757's (not much longer) and DL/AA 767's. Does anyone know how DL and AA are doing on JFK-BRU?
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 46):
we all seem to be missing one giant piece in our top performing TATL flights!!!

What point are we all missing?

Quoting 747fan (Reply 47):
I thought the 767's (maybe only the 762's if any) and 757's were also getting AVOD. At least the 767's have PTV's in Y, unlike their own 757's (not much longer) and DL/AA 767's. Does anyone know how DL and AA are doing on JFK-BRU?

The 777s are getting AVOD throughout the airplane.......ships 19 and 20 (the new airplanes) have it, and I believe ship 10 has been fitted and another 777 is being fitted at this moment. The 757s already have AVOD in J, and will get PTVs with AVOD in Y shortly with the process starting this Autumn....it will take a while for all 41 airplanes to be fitted. Only then will the 767s be in line for AVOD.....no schedule or dates yet.

As for DL, their 767s are getting new IFE options although DL has been struggling to find the appropriate product for the 763ERs.....the concern is the weight of the system. AA and DL have each been flying JFK-BRU for years (although each has suspended the route on occasion....AA did not fly JFK-BRU for a couple of years in the late 1990s and early 2000s and DL did not operate JFK-BRU for a period after 9/11); AA does OK with the route and DL does so-so with JFK-BRU and its rumored that this segment may be down-gauged by DL to a 752 in the near future.....DL does quite well with ATL-BRU which covers many connecting pax, so JFK-BRU ends up being more O&D oriented and the loads are not as good as DL would like.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15055
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: CO: Reverting To 764 On EWR-BRU Route?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:35 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 48):
The 757s already have AVOD in J, and will get PTVs with AVOD in Y shortly with the process starting this Autumn....it will take a while for all 41 airplanes to be fitted. Only then will the 767s be in line for AVOD.....no schedule or dates yet.

And it is my educated guess that the 764 will get AVOD first. The 762 is in limbo. It may or may not stay in the fleet long term, so investing in a new system for that plane is the lowest on the priority list. 738s will start getting AVOD before 762s get it, in my opinion. The 762s have PTVs, and I think CO will consider that "good enough" for the near future, and want to upgrade other planes that have no PTVs first.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.

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