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AA767LOVER
Posts: 488
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:59 am

RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:21 am

I have not seen a press release. Until I do, then yes, it is NOT a credible source.
Simply giving false hopes.

I have seen the taxes because I as a Canadian have to pay them just like anyone else, and I can tell you that it is almost incomprehensible how they could charge so high. Yet, if you want to fly, pay it.
So my answer now is, I either take B6 out of Buffalo, or take VIA Rail (if time is not an issue).
J.I. Tsui, American Advantage Member, United Mileage Plus (Premier)
 
DTWAGENT
Posts: 753
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RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:34 am

I can't see B6 flying into YYZ. The landing fees alone would cost them big time. B6 has to many other places here in the USA to fly to. I would like to see them come to DTW and GRR or as a long shot to TOL.
 
Phoenix9
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RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:51 am

how much is the landing fee at YYZ anyways? I can imagine it being higher than other major airports in Canada but is it really that big of a difference?

Another point: toronto is one of the most multicultural cities in the world so most likely all that revenue from internation pax makes it worthwhile for the airlines. I have seen flights to southeast asia especially carry have load of pax most of the time.
Life only makes sense when you look at it backwards.
 
iflyac
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:11 am

RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:17 am

Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 51):
I can't see B6 flying into YYZ. The landing fees alone would cost them big time. B6 has to many other places here in the USA to fly to. I would like to see them come to DTW and GRR or as a long shot to TOL.

Perhaps they want to beat Southwest to the punch. I thought I read that they are considering cross border service and Toronto is one of the biggest North American cities.
What was it we had for dinner tonight? Well, we had a choice of steak or fish. Yes, yes, I remember, I had lasagna.
 
avrocomet
Topic Author
Posts: 17
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RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:09 pm

No rumours, no speculation. 4 to 6 flights a day by Dec 07.

And for all who are looking for the press release, it does not exist yet. As like a good hockey trade that a reporter picks up on before it is released to the public this is what has happened here. Sit back and watch it unfold.

How long did many on this site apparantly speculate and question Emirates to YYZ. Then all of a sudden the announcement...EMIRATES IS COMING TO YYZ.

Well....JETBLUE IS COMING TO YYZ.
 
CitrusCritter
Posts: 802
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 10:36 am

RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:27 pm

Quoting Avrocomet (Reply 54):
4 to 6 flights a day by Dec 07.

Assuming this turns out to be true, are those all to JFK or also to BOS, IAD, FLL etc?
- CitrusCritter
Long Live the 717!
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AA767LOVER
Posts: 488
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RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:38 pm

DTW would also be good as one could also try flying there, and busing it across the border. The bus trip is longer, and the scenery is a bit different than the usual QEW to Buffalo.
J.I. Tsui, American Advantage Member, United Mileage Plus (Premier)
 
MattRB
Posts: 1357
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:49 am

RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:40 pm

Quoting Avrocomet (Reply 54):
No rumours, no speculation.

And no corroborating evidence either!

Until there is a press release, you're just blowing smoke.
Aviation is proof that, given the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
avrocomet
Topic Author
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:04 am

RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:45 pm

Quoting MattRB (Reply 57):
And no corroborating evidence either!

Until there is a press release, you're just blowing smoke.

I bet your glass is half empty as well. Have some faith.

The amount of US bound Canadian passengers that drive to Buffalo for a flight on Jetblue is certainly sets a compelling business case for operations in YYZ.

They see the opportunity.
 
flyyul
Posts: 4473
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:25 pm

Avro,

To where? Where does JetBlue intend to fly from Toronto?

Most Buffalo traffic is either going to California, Vegas, Arizona or Florida... unless Jetblue intends to serve these markets nonstop on Toronto, im calling your bluff.
 
sebring
Posts: 1331
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RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:31 pm

Quoting Avrocomet (Reply 58):
he amount of US bound Canadian passengers that drive to Buffalo for a flight on Jetblue is certainly sets a compelling business case for operations in YYZ. They see the opportunity.

The compelling case for those Buffalo passengers is that JetBlue already gets them, so why compete with itself?
 
thirteenright
Posts: 177
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:28 am

RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:44 pm

Quoting Sebring (Reply 60):
The compelling case for those Buffalo passengers is that JetBlue already gets them, so why compete with itself?

Not all Torontonians are willing to drive to BUF to fly. It's a very long drive and unless you're getting such a fantastic deal, its just not worth it.

I dont think B6's first Canadian city should be YYZ. I think the NYC-YYZ market is oversaturated and that there are better opportunities for B6 in Canada. Personally, I'd be all over Porter trying to strike an exclusive deal there. YTZ is tremendously convenient and Porter seems like a great little airline.

That being said, BUF works better for the western Tornto suburbs and more of a YHM alternative than anything.
 
accargo
Posts: 576
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 10:19 pm

RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:48 pm

Quoting Avrocomet (Reply 58):
I bet your glass is half empty as well. Have some faith.

The amount of US bound Canadian passengers that drive to Buffalo for a flight on Jetblue is certainly sets a compelling business case for operations in YYZ.

They see the opportunity.

The "glass" may be half empty, but at least we get a glass and not a plastic cup.  Big grin (kidding)

If Jetblue still flies from BUF, it will still be cheaper to drive there and hop on an acft there. Nothing Jetblu can do is going to lesson the taxes charged by the US gov't for pax inbound from Canada, not to mention the taxes the Cdn gov't adds on. These currently start at about $40 per person O/W and go up depending on flight cost.

As Sebring also mentioned, if Jetblu were starting up in Dec, it should have been advertising and making booking already.

It's nice that you believe you have a scoop, but without some real evidence the folks around here are going to take it with a pinch of salt.
 
FLYACYYZ
Posts: 1820
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2004 12:13 am

RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting Avrocomet (Reply 58):
The amount of US bound Canadian passengers that drive to Buffalo for a flight on Jetblue is certainly sets a compelling business case for operations in YYZ

Two ways of looking at this. Don't doubt that there are significant numbers of travellers that shuffle of to Buffalo, but operating out of YYZ, may also dilute its BUF passenger numbers. B6 will not be the low cost dream airline at YYZ. Customers will still be subjected insane tax and service charges thatt no single airline has any control over. At the end of the day, the fares will be completely competitive whether they are up against AC/AA to NYC or AC/WS to FLL.

No doubts that B6 will fill planes out of YYZ, but don't expect $39.00 all in fares any time soon. It's a complete impossibility.
Above and Beyond
 
pacifica
Posts: 140
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RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:25 pm

For everyone who tout's B6's success in BUF as a way to say they would be successful from YYZ, think about this...What type of GTA resident flies out of Buffalo? Is it the type that is extremely loyal to one airline, or the type that will fly whatever option is cheapest all the time? (In case it isn't obvious, in the majority of these cases it is the latter that holds true). So even if B6 starts flying to YYZ, it'll be a tough uphill battle for two main reasons...on a loyalty front, both WS and AC have extremely loyal followings throughout Canada (it can often be said, that as a Canadian you are either a AC Aeroplan mileage hog or a WS junkie...there aren't too many up here rooting for UA's mileage plus for example)...on a pricing front, WS and AC already battle to the death in competitive markets with fare wars at least one a year in the form of sales, price reductions, etc; if B6 enters the market, IMHO I only see the competitive juices increasing.

In short, B6, take my (amateur) advice and stay with what you've got good at BUF. Don't fly to YYZ for the prestige...and if you really want to fly to Canada, there are many other transborder markets with monopolies by AC where you could fly instead...
 
fly_yhm
Posts: 1647
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RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:31 am

Quoting Avrocomet (Reply 54):
How long did many on this site apparantly speculate and question Emirates to YYZ. Then all of a sudden the announcement...EMIRATES IS COMING TO YYZ.

Well....JETBLUE IS COMING TO YYZ.

So what you saying is if that for a long enough period of time I continue to speculate that hmm let me pull one out of a hat. Geez ok lets say I keep speculating that Japan Airlines and ANA are going to both start service with 777s that eventually it will happen. In that case Japan Airlines and ANA are coming to YYZ.
Where will you spend eternity? He,s more real then you think!!!!!
 
Evan767
Posts: 2198
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RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:57 am

Still no press release?
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
JetJock22
Posts: 612
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:41 am

Quoting Avrocomet (Reply 54):
No rumours, no speculation. 4 to 6 flights a day by Dec 07.

And for all who are looking for the press release, it does not exist yet. As like a good hockey trade that a reporter picks up on before it is released to the public this is what has happened here. Sit back and watch it unfold.

I think you're going to be sitting back and watching nothing for a looooooong time
 
Cruiser
Posts: 941
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:08 am

RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:54 am

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 47):
And you pulled this number from ...... ?

Do the math...it is $2500 for an A320 to land, or $12,500 for a 747 to land. Both of these numbers have been widely used in the news.

Suppose you have an average fare on a 747 of $750 and 400 seats, total revenue is $300,000. 12,500/300,000 = 4.17%

Now, suppose that you have an average fare on an A320 of $500 and 140 seats, total revenue would be $75,000: 2500/75000 = 3.33%

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
sebring
Posts: 1331
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RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:06 am

It's not just landing fees, it's just about everything else, gate, terminal space. etc.

It's also the taxes that the customer pays,

I took an Air Canada Tango Plus fare for YYZ-LGA Sept 19/20, and with fees and taxes included, it's C$343. I used the no checked baggage feature.

JetBlue charges about US$199 from Buffalo to JFK. That's about C$210. That's for a slightly lesser stage length. You could argue that with the extra fuel cost, YYZ-JFK would come in about C$220. Then add on approximately $85 in fees and taxes that are associated with operating to Canada (NavCanada's fees), operating to Toronto (the C$20 airport fee) and flying transborder (US and Canadian customs and other taxes including a C$31 US customs fee) and the final fare for JetBlue, without adding in Toronto's higher landing fees, terminal charges, etc, would be closer to C$315.

Now, this is mainly a business travel route, and more Canadians want to go to LGA and EWR, depending on their destination in Manhattan. Then consider AC has flight passes which further discount the fare, that it has an hourly flight to LGA and several flights to Newark (and even flights to Westchester), and it has a FLAT same day airport change fee of C$50 (as opposed to U$45 plus fare difference), plus Aeroplan mileage... Given the price difference between Toronto and Buffalo, one has to ask if they are JetBlue whether it can capture the people from Toronto who go to BUF for a cheaper fare. If yes, what does that do to business on the BUF flights, and if no (becaue its YYZ prices are too high), can it still carve a distinct advantage where price is not necessarily the determining issue. You can't even throw Live TV into the debate because AC's entire narrowbody fleet will have AVOD at every seat. Nor does JetBlue offer frequent flyers the chance to upgrade to business class, or use a lounge.

I'll readily concede that when it comes to last minute departures, JetBlue opens up a bigger gap over legacy carriers, but from my experience, these is one of the groups - if they don't have a corporate deal - that is already driving to BUF.

Eventually JetBlue or somebody else will come, and it will be an interesting experiment to watch. Maybe they are coming very soon, but I am not accepting the OP's logic that a sighting of Jetblue people translates into a specific start date with a specific number of flights.
 
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yowza
Posts: 4512
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:22 am

Quoting Avrocomet (Reply 58):

The amount of US bound Canadian passengers that drive to Buffalo for a flight on Jetblue is certainly sets a compelling business case for operations in YYZ.

Care to share a source with us for these highly specific numbers.

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 68):
Do the math...it is $2500 for an A320 to land, or $12,500 for a 747 to land. Both of these numbers have been widely used in the news.

Suppose you have an average fare on a 747 of $750 and 400 seats, total revenue is $300,000. 12,500/300,000 = 4.17%

Now, suppose that you have an average fare on an A320 of $500 and 140 seats, total revenue would be $75,000: 2500/75000 = 3.33%

http://www.atac.ca/en/ourissues/advocacy/landing_fees.html

Quoting Avrocomet (Reply 54):
How long did many on this site apparantly speculate and question Emirates to YYZ. Then all of a sudden the announcement...EMIRATES IS COMING TO YYZ.

Well....JETBLUE IS COMING TO YYZ.

That's a pretty wild and irrelevant comparison. Toronto is a big city, arguably Canada's leading city, so there is interest from big players to fly here for the O/D in the international market but in terms of a new US carrier competing on existing Canada-US routes, that is not quite as appealing. I'm pretty sure I could start a few Qatar Airways to YTZ threads but that does not necessarily mean QR will ever serve YYZ. (Although I personally beleive they will in time)

YOWza
 
JetBlueAUS
Posts: 852
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:15 am

RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:28 am

I'll believe it when I see it... Also, I'm pretty sure that Barger said that there would be no more new city announcements for the year, only connecting the dots. Right now, it is only a rumor.
Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
 
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ERJ170
Posts: 5931
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:31 am

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 71):
there would be no more new city announcements for the year

Just to play devil's advocate here.. they are announcing routes for next year though so perhaps it will be starting March, April, or May of next year?
Aiming High and going far..
 
JetBlueAUS
Posts: 852
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:15 am

RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:34 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 72):
Just to play devil's advocate here.. they are announcing routes for next year though so perhaps it will be starting March, April, or May of next year?

Perhaps! But I was basing my statement off of this one here:

Quoting Avrocomet (Reply 4):
Not pulling legs and the source well; they were at YYZ this week. Start up by the end of the year.

Sorry, I should've quoted.
Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
 
Cruiser
Posts: 941
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:08 am

RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:28 pm

Quoting YOWza (Reply 70):
http://www.atac.ca/en/ourissues/advocacy/landing_fees.html

Those are 2004 rates. They have risen considerably since then.
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
YYZatcboy
Posts: 1196
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RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:50 pm

IF they come, would they be stuck in T3, or would they be one of the first to use the new Transborder facilites at T1? IIRC eventualy all airlines will be operating out of T1 (20 year master plan?) so would they not start putting non Star Alliance members there at some point soon?
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drgmobile
Posts: 989
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:06 am

RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:23 pm

According to the airline, it did visit Toronto and visits lots of airports. It is NOT planning to fly there this year.

Rumours are irresponsible.
 
pnwtraveler
Posts: 1074
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:12 am

RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:23 am

The new transboarder area is quite busy with AC and United flights already. There is probably room for more there but it maybe in slower slot times of the day rather than key periods. AC still uses the small satelite terminal that is a fair bus ride from T1 for some Dash and CRJ flights for additional capacity. The infield terminal is empty but it is not set up as a transborder secure zone after US Customs. There is still some capacity in Terminal 3 likewise but not sure how maxed it is during peak times.
 
ricardofg
Posts: 592
Joined: Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:09 am

RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:38 pm

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 75):
IIRC eventualy all airlines will be operating out of T1 (20 year master plan?) so would they not start putting non Star Alliance members there at some point soon?

Are you talking US carriers?? Because Etihad Airways, Alitalia, Emirates, Jet Airways, Mexicana and Sunwing are all non star carriers in terminal one. Terminal 3 is almost at capacity however I think US Airways will be moving over to Terminal 1 shortly which will free up some space. If, and thats a big IF Jet Blue decides to fly to YYZ, Im almost positive it will be out of Terminal 3.
 
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yowza
Posts: 4512
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Jetblue To YYZ

Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:18 pm

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 74):
Those are 2004 rates. They have risen considerably since then.

Any idea where I can find current numbers?

YOWza

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