On the occasion of dedicating the new Steeler themed A319, Doug Parker said that US' operation at PIT was "marginally unprofitable" and underperformed the rest of the airline. He strongly hinted that the solution would be to cut an additional 10-15 flights from PIT. I wouldn't expect those SEA or SAN flights to come back anytime soon. Here's the article:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/07256/817090-28.stm

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando

[Edited 2007-09-13 14:33:52]

I hate to say it, but I would not be the least bit surprised to see US make PIT nothing more than a spoke, with perhaps a handful of flights to major business destinations; certainly no where near even the current level of flights. It seems he's setting it up for that, doing it slowly to make it look as if it's not one huge cutback all at once. IMO, PIT was never seriously considered in the HP/US merger plans and that the continual downsizing has been planned since before the merger even agreed to. Sorry guys, but I think PIT is going to continued to get the screw from Parker & Co.

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 2): but I think PIT is going to continued to get the screw from Parker & Co.

It sucks that PIT is getting the shorter end of the stick. But it seems as though many want US to remain in PIT even though it is unprofitable. Airlines are out to make money not run a charity.

Damn Pittsburg...Do you ever get a break! I'm not even from that part of the country , but I feel for you all!

I think the writing on the wall is that in another 2-3 years time PIT will be drawn down completely. With service to PHL, CLT, PHX, and LAS... and likely BOS, LGA, and DCA. I'd say any Florida service is doubtful given where the LCC competition is.

There was a point, probably after PIT dropped below 200 flights that it was over. Not enough presence to keep the LCCs out and not enough connectivity to make it a viable hub. Which is a shame since it is such a nice facility and not excessively delay prone.

Quoting Captaink (Reply 3): But it seems as though many want US to remain in PIT even though it is unprofitable. Airlines are out to make money not run a charity.

Of course the people of Pittsburgh want to see US stay. Remember, just because the airline is in reality "America West", PIT and US Airways/US Air/Allegheny go back 5+ decades. Even though the corporate offices were elsewhere, it is PIT's hometown airline. No one wants to see that die. I don't think anyone there wants charity. Had this merger been the other way around and PHX was being gutted, the screaming from the desert would be just as loud.

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 6): Had this merger been the other way around and PHX was being gutted, the screaming from the desert would be just as loud.

Your probably correct on that, but the PHX O&D market is huge, much larger than PIT. It would've been a dumb move to downsize PHX, it is one of the fastest growing metropolis' in the country.


Sad to see PIT getting cut even more, and we just got our PIT flights back! After a 2 month hiatus. Hopefully they'll stick around for awhile, PIT is so much more convienent than PHL, esp. when traveling out west.

[email protected]

what I don't understand is that you have B6 saying that PIT isn't doing that well because the market sticks with US and US is saying that they don't do that well there now too. Which is it? If people are really loyal to US, why are they unprofitable there? Sounds like a US issue if thats the case.

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 2): I would not be the least bit surprised to see US make PIT nothing more than a spoke, with perhaps a handful of flights to major business destinations

That seems to be exactly where things are going. As far as I can tell, PIT's peak mainline departures on US drop to 31 in October, with 23 of those being to the hubs & focus cities, 4 to United hubs (1 each to all but IAD), and 4 to Florida (2 to MCO, 1 each to FLL & TPA).

Quoting Gift4tbone (Reply 7): Sad to see PIT getting cut even more, and we just got our PIT flights back! After a 2 month hiatus. Hopefully they'll stick around for awhile

It's interesting that you mention the PIT-PVD flights. All three are operated by Trans States, and my understanding is that these days, Trans States' RJ flights operated as US Airways Express are being done as an at-risk operation; i.e. Trans States is not being guaranteed a margin on the flying and they have control of pricing, scheduling, and routes -- sort of like the relationship between Delta and Expressjet at LAX. 25 of the 46 RJ departures from PIT seem to be operated by Trans States.

I'd also estimate that roughly 15 of the 27 daily turboprop departures from PIT are to EAS markets, operated by Air Midwest and Colgan. Mesa seems to be trying to divest itself of Air Midwest's EAS markets on the East Coast, and with the PIT hub close to completely drawn down, it would not surprise me if Colgan were to shift its EAS markets to CLE, given their existing partnership with CO.

I'm guessing that long term, PIT will see roughly 40-50 daily departures on US & US Express -- on the higher end if they keep the Florida flights and the flights to the UA hubs.

Parker picked kind of an odd occasion to more or less say straight out that PIT will see more cuts. Maybe the dedication of the airline's PIT-related logojet isn't the day to do it? He does say some interesting stuff though.

Saying that the East and West parts of the airline "aren't coming together" seems to me a bit of a strong statement, and probably not collective-bargaining bluster. Whether the airline is in danger of coming apart I don't know, but that's an eyebrow-raising statement.

I doubt JetBlue or Southwest are to blame for the continued weakness of US at PIT. Many of the cut flights at PIT are to medium and small markets where those carriers don't compete with US. It's also not like Parker to go around blaming LCC's, especially since he's trying so hard to make people think US is an LCC. Oh well, at least he didn't say "if WN goes to eight gates at PIT we're dead."

Jim

Quoting Gift4tbone (Reply 7): Your probably correct on that, but the PHX O&D market is huge, much larger than PIT. It would've been a dumb move to downsize PHX, it is one of the fastest growing metropolis' in the country.

You obviously missed the point of my comment. Never mind.   

They are downsizing PIT at an exponential rate, and yet are still building a new SOC in PIT? It makes no sense.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 12): They are downsizing PIT at an exponential rate, and yet are still building a new SOC in PIT? It makes no sense.

As has been said a large number of times, you can dispatch planes without being near them. The current SOC in PIT was far bigger than the SOC in PHX, so the relocation costs plus the number of people who would have refused (as in any transcontinental office transfer) would have been too detrimental to both the bottom line and the smooth transition. Likewise with the cost of living being so much lower in PIT compared to PHX, US can pay the people working in the PIT SOC less than the PHX SOC would have demanded... therefore also helping the bottom line.

Doesn't your airline still do all that kind of management stuff from ATW? US doesn't fly to ATW at all.

Much of this topic has already been talked about in the Whats going on with PIT? thread.

[Edited 2007-09-13 20:05:40]

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 13): Doesn't your airline still do all that kind of management stuff from ATW? US doesn't fly to ATW at all.

Don't even get me started on that. At least PIT will still have some service. WIth us, its either a 90 minute drive to MKE, or if you are fortunate enough to be in CASS, you can Jumpseat someone else out of ATW to a US city (Every destination served from ATW is a US city).

The other reason its an apples to oranges comparison is because the corporate headquarters is still in PHX, while SOC is in PIT. Every other airline I know, mine included, has its SOC either in HQ or near it. (UA still has SOC in Elk Grove, while HQ is downtown, but they are both still in Chicagoland) You would think that they would try to keep SOC near HQ, which would mean a new PHX facility. This would have actually been a little cheaper for the company, because it would have probably meant losing some senior people who are topped out. The only benefit PIT has is the cost of living is lower, so they can attract better people.

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 6): Remember, just because the airline is in reality "America West", PIT and US Airways/US Air/Allegheny go back 5+ decades

Uhhh, last I checked, the airline was still called US Airways....

Quoting Apodino (Reply 15): (UA still has SOC in Elk Grove, while HQ is downtown, but they are both still in Chicagoland)

Anything even vaguely operational is still out in Elk Grove. The move to downtown was largely symbolic (kind of like Boeing...).

Quoting Gift4tbone (Reply 7): Your probably correct on that, but the PHX O&D market is huge, much larger than PIT. It would've been a dumb move to downsize PHX, it is one of the fastest growing metropolis' in the country.

If Pit was larger than PHL like PHX now is, then they wouldn't need to worry about cutting PIT.

PIT is a much better airport than PHL< it's a shame the city can't grow and drive some demand for more air service.

Quoting JetJock22 (Reply 16): the airline was still called US Airways....

becuase HP decided to keep the name. HP is running the US bus now, and after September 25th, there will only be one operating certificate.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 10): Saying that the East and West parts of the airline "aren't coming together" seems to me a bit of a strong statement, and probably not collective-bargaining bluster. Whether the airline is in danger of coming apart I don't know, but that's an eyebrow-raising statement.

It's absolutely work-group related though. Union problems are the ONLY thing really keeping the company split. It's sad that, generally speaking, those of us out west have jumped on the US bandwagon while those back east seemingly have more important things to do.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 12): They are downsizing PIT at an exponential rate, and yet are still building a new SOC in PIT? It makes no sense.

PIT could have two flights a day and still support a SOC.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 18): PIT is a much better airport than PHL< it's a shame the city can't grow and drive some demand for more air service.

On that note, it's s shame Philly can't build a bigger, better airport.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 19): It's sad that, generally speaking, those of us out west have jumped on the US bandwagon while those back east seemingly have more important things to do.

Well, the only "bandwagon" those out west have jumped on is the US Airways name. In just about every other respect -- reservations system, in-flight product, management, website, call sign, etc., the "new" US Airways is just America West with a new name.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 15): Every other airline I know, mine included, has its SOC either in HQ or near it.

The "old" US Airways had its headquarters within spitting distance of DCA with the SOC in PIT.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 18): becuase HP decided to keep the name. HP is running the US bus now, and after September 25th, there will only be one operating certificate.

Ahh. Thank you for the clarification

Why can CO seemingly make CLE work, CO is investing more there soon, yet PIT is falling apart? Both serve a midwest niche to a route structure otherwise without one, both are in towns with suffering economies, yeah I know Cleveland is bigger than PIT but not by that much. It makes little sense to me.

Quoting Ncflyer (Reply 22): Why can CO seemingly make CLE work, CO is investing more there soon, yet PIT is falling apart? Both serve a midwest niche to a route structure otherwise without one, both are in towns with suffering economies, yeah I know Cleveland is bigger than PIT but not by that much. It makes little sense to me.

Because CO has IAH and EWR plus, now, CLE -- 2 primary hubs and one secondary one, for a total of 3.

US has major hubs in PHX, CLT and PHL plus LAS; that's 4 without PIT. If US had any desire for another (secondary) hub, it would make sense to go for MCI or TUL or someplace else in the middle of the country, not just over 200 miles from another of their hubs. The decision was made to go with PHL and that pretty much sealed the fate of PIT.

bb

Quoting JetJock22 (Reply 16): Uhhh, last I checked, the airline was still called US Airways....

Yes, but I think you know what the intent of my statement was.

Questions for PIT'sburghers - I assume US is paying leases on all of the unused gates there? How many are they actually using and how many are vacant? Just curious.

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 24): assume US is paying leases on all of the unused gates there?

No these rejected their leases in 2004 and then went into BK and then resigned for far fewer gates


"As part of its successful emergence from bankruptcy protection, US Airways rejected its leases at Pittsburgh International about 20 minutes before filing its restructuring plan and said it would seek to significantly reduce its operating costs here. "

from the article:

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/stories/2003/08/25/story5.html

I told people when I worked for Express there that they should just cut everything and do shuttle flights to CLT and PHL...And a few LGA, DCA. And be done. Make it all express.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 14): Every other airline I know, mine included, has its SOC either in HQ or near it.

Add an oddball one to your list in my airline - HQ in YUL, SOC in YYZ.

I believe we still have PIT service to YYZ on a DHC-8, if memory serves. Usually in the AM, over on one of the Bravo gates at T3.

Quoting MattRB (Reply 26): I believe we still have PIT service to YYZ on a DHC-8, if memory serves. Usually in the AM, over on one of the Bravo gates at T3.

If its out of PIT its gonna be in the A councourse probably operated by Piedmont if its US. If your talking about AC then its gonna be out of C-53/55 in PIT.

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 27): If its out of PIT its gonna be in the A councourse probably operated by Piedmont if its US. If your talking about AC then its gonna be out of C-53/55 in PIT.

No, I should have clarified that I was talking about YYZ there.

My bad   

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 23): Questions for PIT'sburghers - I assume US is paying leases on all of the unused gates there? How many are they actually using and how many are vacant? Just curious.

In A conourse, US has all the gates except for 1, 3, 5. In B conourse, they have all gates 26-40 I believe. Everything down to the bend in the concourse is theirs. The rest belong to the ACAA.

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 23): Yes, but I think you know what the intent of my statement was.

Yes, I realized that after I saw you had put it in quotation marks. I was however too lazy to fix it

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 5): Of course the people of Pittsburgh want to see US stay. Remember, just because the airline is in reality "America West", PIT and US Airways/US Air/Allegheny go back 5+ decades. Even though the corporate offices were elsewhere, it is PIT's hometown airline. No one wants to see that die. I don't think anyone there wants charity. Had this merger been the other way around and PHX was being gutted, the screaming from the desert would be just as loud.

I can understand how PITsbergers feel. I did my US ACS / Reservations training in PIT, a couple years ago when US was still offering flights to Europe (I distinctly remember FRA, not sure about LGW) ex PIT. US was the most important airline at that airport by a mile. Half of the checkin area, was US, the other half was the other airlines, not sure what it is like now.

But saying that US is just screwing PIT makes it look like US has something against PIT is quite different from accepting that PIT is a difficult hub to operate, little O&D, expensive airport and only 1 hour or so away from PHL (a major US hub), all making PIT quite unprofitable. To top it all off, the US Airways that served PIT in the years gone by doesn't exist. This HP using the US name.

I don't know whether HP's "saving" US Airways would have made a difference in the long run for PIT. I know it was an expensive airport in the beginning of the new terminal, and US had begun implementing cutbacks even before the merger when it looked like they might be headed to CH7. Obviously the disaster that is PHL was their future due to it's large O&D and turning it into it's trans-Atlantic hub of choice. PIT's proximity obviously doesn't help.

I just find it disturbing, as others have pointed out, that Parker made the comment that east and west are not coming together like he'd expected. An airline in it's third year of post-merger should have many of those issues fixed, even if they are on different operating certificates. It seems pretty obvious the old US people and the old HP people have a certain degree of dislike and distrust of each other. One expects that from any merger. However, those issues should be moot at this point. Parker had grand ideas for his empire without bothering to see what he had before him at the time was not even working yet.

As for PIT, sadly, it is going to become a memory eventually. Maybe an Airtan or Southwest can pick up some slack, but never to the extent US once had. It won't be long before it will be hard to even classify it as a focus city, by whatever definition (and there are many on a.net) you call it.

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 32): Maybe an Airtan or Southwest can pick up some slack, but never to the extent US once had. It won't be long before it will be hard to even classify it as a focus city, by whatever definition (and there are many on a.net) you call it.

I call it the biggest abomination in a long time! I just read that the rumored CLE expansion by CO is official. While I am happy for the folks at CLE, PIT still gets shafted, and kicked in the teeth in spite of everything that the current mayor and county execs are desperately trying to do to make the place better. I have said this in other threads; I have turned my back on US. I just pray that somebody else comes in and saves the region from the plagues of US. You may think I am crazy and nuts for saying such things, but I was born here 24 years ago, and grew up there before coming out to Lancaster to attend college.

I have grown to become very pround of what Pittsburgh has done in its past, but I spit at what it has become. It is nothing more than a black hole. I surely do hope that the city shows signs of growth very quickly. A population of 312k and dropping, after a 1950 high of 676 thousand, is quite critical. The city probably should not have dumped so much in manufacturing. Look at PHL, it invested in manufacturing, but also in services, transportation, etc. And look at where Philadelphia is at compared to where Pittsburgh is at. is it any reason why half of the state's poverty-stricken places are in Southwestern PA, including the cities of McKeesport and Pittsburgh.

Now with the steel industry nonexistant, Pittsburgh had nothing to fall back on and retain its population. Instead, the city lost money and population. Taxes went through the ceiling and the living conditions out there suck. Jobs are scarce, and forget the cheap living costs. Without jobs, how much the cost of living may be shouldn't even matter. I just wish they could've done something with the city instead of turning it into the laughing stock of PA and the Northeast IMO. I know that is a bit harsh, but it ticked me off enough to move out... much like the other quarter of a million people have done...

If nobody else will fill in the void when US downgrades to 50 daily flights, they might as well remove parts of the terminal. I know that at times I am optimistic, but at the same time I do have doubts of what is happening with the region. There may be fluctuations taking place downtown, but the city is losing people, more people than ever. What are they doing about that? Are jobs being created? Are the taxes being overhauled? I don't see any of that happening.

Quoting SkyyMaster (Reply 32): Maybe an Airtan or Southwest can pick up some slack, but never to the extent US once had.

Airtran tried and failed. WN seems to have bigger fish to fry and the lack of expansion in PIT points to the view that they view a PIT focus city city as a nonstarter. CLE expansion puts PIT in a very precarious position.

Quite frankly if US were to spoke PIT it could free up the mainline capacity to open new CLT and PHL west coast and PHX LAS east coast routes. Without any new additional capacity and only replacemnt orderes this will be the only way that US expands in any meaningful fashion domestically.

Would this make PIT an idea location for FL to try and build a hub? It has the space available and a customers to go after who are seeing their nonstop routes dwindling. It would seem like customers that are ripe for the picking.

Quoting Indy (Reply 35): FL to try and build a hub?

FL has a nice operation at CAK, if PIT could hold and attact a hub, they would still have one. Even B6 is haveing issues with just a few flights.

PIT is a great airport and the city has come a long way, I hope the airport can revitalize service somehow soon.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 36): if PIT could hold and attact a hub, they would still have one

In PITs defense US has had some strange habits when it comes to hubs. One airline having two hubs in the same state is about as strange as you can get.

Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 34): Airtran tried and failed.

That was at a time when US had quadruple the number of flights it currently has. I don't think FL would really have any problem adding more flights at PIT. Then again, if they were to go into PHL, BOS, MDW, and LGA, they'd be competing head to head against US and WN, along with other airlines. Still, with SAN and SEA gone from the system, both having sizeable O&D at that (yes, for year round service. I really don't want to hear about the whole bit...) and a ton of others, someone really should come in and pick things up again.

Quoting Indy (Reply 35): Would this make PIT an idea location for FL to try and build a hub? It has the space available and a customers to go after who are seeing their nonstop routes dwindling. It would seem like customers that are ripe for the picking.

I would just love for something like this to happen. I thought they were doing this with BWI, IND, MDW, and MKE though, building up those markets. Although, is FL still adding anything at IND? Many folks on here say that NW is running the show there. BWI and MDW have massive WN bases to compete against. The reasons I have heard regarding MKE are just rediculous and ludacrous; pursuing YX was not the best idea IMO...

NW runs the show here. I THINK Fl has for the most part given up on IND. I think they've done the same with MDW. Not sure what their intentions are with MKE. I would imagine with WN being in BWI they won't push too hard for it.

Quoting Indy (Reply 37): In PITs defense US has had some strange habits when it comes to hubs. One airline having two hubs in the same state is about as strange as you can get.

Then I guess UA having hubs in both SFO and LAX is also strange.

Quoting Apodino (Reply 14): The other reason its an apples to oranges comparison is because the corporate headquarters is still in PHX, while SOC is in PIT. Every other airline I know, mine included, has its SOC either in HQ or near it. (UA still has SOC in Elk Grove, while HQ is downtown, but they are both still in Chicagoland) You would think that they would try to keep SOC near HQ, which would mean a new PHX facility.

SOC is in PHX. OCC is still in PIT. A new OCC is being built in PIT. The city of PIT BID on the location of the new combined OCC (along with PHX and CLT). PIT won the bid. It had nothing to do with employee seniority like you mention. You seem to confuse the facts with some bitterness towards "big brother." Facts aside, when I worked for ZW, the same bitterness towards UA at the time existed as well.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 36): PIT is a great airport and the city has come a long way, I hope the airport can revitalize service somehow soon.

I dearly hope so as well. I am pretty much posting on here out of anger and aggravation of what US and the politicians have turned PIT and the city of Pittsburgh into. I really would go as far to say that they've turned the region into some sort of laughing stock, leaving today's generation a quantum hole to dig the region out of... That is just how aggravated I am at what became of Pittsburgh... I just hope the revitalizations of Downtown, Oakland, Southside, and the North Shore will ultimately spill over into the surrounding neighborhoods and reverse the decades' worth of devastating population loss and job loss...

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 42): decades' worth of devastating population loss and job loss...

US didn't cause that, having a manufacturing business base and being in the rust belt did.


Cities like Detroit are having the same issue.

Blame Wal Mart and our foreign trade policies (oops this turned into a non-av post)

Quoting Apodino (Reply 40): Then I guess UA having hubs in both SFO and LAX is also strange.

I would say yes. Though not as strange as PIT-PHL since LAX-SFO is 69 miles further apart. Not only are they spaced further apart but they also draw from a larger population base. SFO/LAX is nearly 22 million versus just over 8 million between PHL and PIT.

Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 34): Without any new additional capacity and only replacemnt orderes this will be the only way that US expands in any meaningful fashion domestically.

The Airbus orders are basically replacement orders. The E190s are new capacity.

PIT was doomed before the merger in my opinion, the merger sealed it all for them. It would not suprise me to one day see LGA's operation or Bostons operation biger than PIT. MCI would make sense but I do not see it happening. I think that the code share with United which covers the midwest pretty well is going to be about it for the forseeable future. MCI was once a great city for US and when you fly through it you still see it. They fly 1900's around the midwest with the Midwest contract and that is about it. For a long time USAir did alot of the transcon action from LGA to MCI and than onward with 737-400's. It is a shame to see but it is the way of the industry now adays. Trust me I cannot stand it. To go see my best freind in Omaha a few weeks ago when I had a good stint of days off I had to fly JFK-PHX-OMA to get there and went home OMA-MCI-PHL-LGA. No fun but that is going to probably remain the way of it all. At least they will remain a focus city for US if anything in my mind.

I was in PIT about a week ago overnighting there and walking through the airport it was soo eery to say the least. This massive terminal with tons of shops and duty free and you have to make an effort to see humans there.

One good thing is PIT will never have to expand it airport for another 50 years!

Quoting LHPDX (Reply 47): One good thing is PIT will never have to expand it airport for another 50 years!

There are a lot of U.S. cities that would kill for that terminal too!

Quoting Apodino (Reply 14): You would think that they would try to keep SOC near HQ, which would mean a new PHX facility. This would have actually been a little cheaper for the company

As other have said, 3 cities bid for the SOC to be built in their cities. PIT, CLT, and PHX all bid. Obviously the bid that made the most financial sense was the PIT bid.

Quoting MattRB (Reply 26): Add an oddball one to your list in my airline - HQ in YUL, SOC in YYZ.

But was that for operational or political reasons? How long has the SOC been in YYZ? Since before privatization?

Quoting Flyingcat (Reply 34): Airtran tried and failed.

AirTran was still flying DC9's and referred to as "the former Valujet" at the time. Plus US still was a major player at 500 flights a day at PIT, they used frequency and frequent flyer loyalty to push FL back.

Quoting Indy (Reply 35): Would this make PIT an idea location for FL to try and build a hub?

The days of building hubs is probably over. Focus cities focusing on point to point traffic is the model for the future.