Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

LAXintl · Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:50 am

Lufthansa Senior VP-Corporate Fleet Nico Buchholz talks about the carriers future fleet plans.

787 vs A350.

Quote:
Lufthansa is in the process of replacing its long-haul fleet in the medium to long term. It has ordered 15 A380s and 20 747-8s to replace its existing fleet of 30 747-400s. The next step will be to look into the smaller-sized long-haul jets that could supersede its A340 and A330 fleet. Lufthansa does not plan to make a decision on an order for either the Airbus A350 or the Boeing 787 before the end of the year, as Senior VP-Corporate Fleet Nico Buchholz told reporters that while the carrier is in the final phase of evaluations, it is in no rush to place an order.

Future narrowbody

Quote:
Lufthansa could become a launch customer for a 737 replacement, Buchholz said, but he cautioned that the aircraft would have to be a big step forward. "We want a good solution, rather than a rushed solution." Lufthansa would need an aircraft to supersede its fleet of 737 Classics and eventually its A320 family fleet, too. The 737s are approaching an average age of 17 years. But Bucholz stressed that it would be fine for the airline to get a replacement in the 2015-2017 timeframe if suitable engine technology is not ready before then.

A300s replacement

Quote:
According to Buchholz, Lufthansa plans to continue flying its aging Airbus A300s for several years. It operates 14 of them, mostly on domestic and European routes, but has reconfigured some of them with its old-generation, long-haul, business-class seats to be able to fly them to destinations in the Middle East and Asia. The A300s are 18 years old on average. Buchholz said that the A330 does not work as a replacement for the A300.

Feeling about the 748i

Quote:
The airline recently placed the launch order for the 747-8 Intercontinental and to date remains the only passenger carrier opting for the aircraft. But according to Buchholz, Lufthansa is not concerned about the current lack of additional airlines buying the Intercontinental. He predicted that others will buy it before the end of the year.

Full article (subscription required)
http://www.aviationweek.com/publicat...sion+Won%27t+Happen+Before+Yearend

globeex · Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:37 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
He predicted that others will buy it before the end of the year.

Haha, he'sprobably more optimistic than Boeing themselves Wink

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
fleet of 737 Classics and eventually its A320 family fleet, too.

What means "eventually"?! Maybe "also"!

Alltogether, nothing new here. Maybe that they won't make a decision before the end of the year, but that's it. Thank you for posting though.

GlobeEx

boswashsprstar · Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:43 pm

I'm curious, what mission characteristics does LH see in the A300 that makes the A330 an inappropriate replacement?

aloges · Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:53 pm

Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 1):
What means "eventually"?! Maybe "also"!

lost in translation: http://dict.leo.org/ende?search=eventually

Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 2):
I'm curious, what mission characteristics does LH see in the A300 that makes the A330 an inappropriate replacement?

Short haul, high volume I should think. AFAIK they operate or at least have operated flights such as FRA-MUC and FRA-LHR with A300s, should be easy to see that an A330 is a bit large for that. Wink

columba · Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:34 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
Lufthansa could become a launch customer for a 737 replacement, Buchholz said, but he cautioned that the aircraft would have to be a big step forward. "We want a good solution, rather than a rushed solution." Lufthansa would need an aircraft to supersede its fleet of 737 Classics and eventually its A320 family fleet,

So does that mean tthat they want to replace their 737classics with the 737RSS and the A320 with the A320NG ?
For me it reads that they plan to continue to operate two different short and medium haul aircraft.

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
Lufthansa does not plan to make a decision on an order for either the Airbus A350 or the Boeing 787 before the end of the year, as Senior VP-Corporate Fleet Nico Buchholz told reporters that while the carrier is in the final phase of evaluations, it is in no rush to place an order.

So the evaluation is about to be done and they must know by now what aircraft they order so why no announcement ?
Maybe they wait till the manufacturer will officially launch a new model (787-10) ?

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
According to Buchholz, Lufthansa plans to continue flying its aging Airbus A300s for several years. It operates 14 of them, mostly on domestic and European routes, but has reconfigured some of them with its old-generation, long-haul, business-class seats to be able to fly them to destinations in the Middle East and Asia. The A300s are 18 years old on average. Buchholz said that the A330 does not work as a replacement for the A300.

Will be the oldest aircraft that LH has ever operated.

scouseflyer · Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:39 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 3):
Short haul, high volume I should think. AFAIK they operate or at least have operated flights such as FRA-MUC and FRA-LHR with A300s, should be easy to see that an A330 is a bit large for that

Astuteman's patented A350-500 (smaller wings and a few frames less in the fuse) would fit this requirement perfectly. However the less than spectacular sales of the 783 suggest to me that such a plane may well be unlikely to ever get built!

columba · Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:50 pm

Quote:
Lufthansa kaufte in den vergangenen Jahren für die Passagierflotte vor allem bei Airbus. Das sieht Scott Carson inzwischen aber eher entspannt. Die Zusammenarbeit ähnelt nach Einschätzung des langjährigen Boeing-Managers einer guten Ehe mit allen Höhen und Tiefen. «Unsere Ehe mit der Lufthansa dauert rund 50 Jahre», sagt Carson augenzwinkernd.

"Over the past years Lufthansa was primarly buying Airbus aircraft for its passenger fleet. Scott Carson is seeing that very relaxed now. For the long year Boeing Manager the cooperation with Lufthansa is like a good mariage with all its high and lows "Our marriage with LH now last for around 50 years" Carson said with the wink of an eye."

http://www.airliners.de/magazin/artikelseite.php?articleid=13077

Maybe he knows more Smile

LAXintl · Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:04 pm

Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 2):
I'm curious, what mission characteristics does LH see in the A300 that makes the A330 an inappropriate replacement?

I suspect they view the A330 as being too much (size/weight wise) of an airplane for the high cycle short hop domestic and European flying the A300s mostly operate.

The A330 is really optimized for medium-longer haul operations and is definately a lager bird.

fraport · Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:14 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 4):
Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
Lufthansa could become a launch customer for a 737 replacement, Buchholz said, but he cautioned that the aircraft would have to be a big step forward. "We want a good solution, rather than a rushed solution." Lufthansa would need an aircraft to supersede its fleet of 737 Classics and eventually its A320 family fleet,

So does that mean tthat they want to replace their 737classics with the 737RSS and the A320 with the A320NG ?
For me it reads that they plan to continue to operate two different short and medium haul aircraft.

Where do you read that? To me it sounds like they will replace at first their 737 classics with the all new 737 and later on even the A320s (with that same a/c).

columba · Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:21 pm

Quoting Fraport (Reply 8):
Where do you read that? To me it sounds like they will replace at first their 737 classics with the all new 737 and later on even the A320s (with that same a/c).

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
Lufthansa would need an aircraft to supersede its fleet of 737 Classics and eventually its A320 family fleet, too.

Read to quick and got eventualy wrong............

Thorben · Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:45 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
787 vs A350.

LH is certainly in no rush, new A333s can replace the oldest A343s. A346 are still very young. However, the first A350s or 787s will not arrive soon after their order, but rather more than five years later. Therefore LH shouldn't wait for too long, given that some A343s will be over 20 years old by 2015.

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
Future narrowbody

Pretty interesting. LH still operates 63 737classic and has only 30 A32X (15 of them A321) coming. What will they do with those 737s? They will cost them more and more. E-195 might be a good solution, also more A319s, but I don't know if it wise to keep the 737s until 2017.

737RS? Now they want to improve their "marriage" with Boeing? But what "marriage" is Carson talking about? LH is the best Airbus customer ever, apart from ILFC and GECAS. (Counted by aircraft, probably even clearer by seats or list price.)

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
A300s replacement

Either 783 or a mix of A321 (domestic and short-European hops) and A333 (for routes to Kazakhstan, etc.). Problem is probably lack of slots in FRA, otherwise more freq. with A321 to TXL, MUC, LHR. (LHR same with slots, btw.) When FRA opens the fourth runway, things should be easier.

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):

Feeling about the 748i

Predictions are always difficult, especially when they are concerning the future. However, EK might go for the 747-8 at the DXB show, but I still don't see a dam breaking and a flood of orders coming for that model. Rather more A388 orders in Nov and Dec due to EIS.

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 5):
Astuteman's patented A350-500 (smaller wings and a few frames less in the fuse) would fit this requirement perfectly. However the less than spectacular sales of the 783 suggest to me that such a plane may well be unlikely to ever get built!

The question is who would really need it? Today you would need a lot of frequency on a short route to compete with trains, busses, and cars, so that a large short-range plane often won't work. (Except LH's domestic A300, which is owed to their negligence of TXL and HAM and the economic power of Munich and London. And maybe to the restriction of busses in Germany, too.)

Quoting Columba (Reply 4):
Will be the oldest aircraft that LH has ever operated.

I think they are head-to-head with the 733s on that.

AFC_Ajax00 · Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:59 pm

Interesting, I had not heard about some of the A300s being retrofitted for medium-long haul duty, where do they fly to?

columba · Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:01 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 10):
LH is certainly in no rush, new A333s can replace the oldest A343s. A346 are still very young. However, the first A350s or 787s will not arrive soon after their order, but rather more than five years later. Therefore LH shouldn't wait for too long, given that some A343s will be over 20 years old by 2015.

LH needs their A330 primarly for growth so far I don´t know of any A340-300 that have been replaced by A333.
The A333 is used on routes primarly used by the A343 before but the A343 is now operating different routes to either new destinations, or to existing routes but from other German cities rather than FRA (HAM, DUS, MUC).

Quoting Thorben (Reply 10):
Pretty interesting. LH still operates 63 737classic and has only 30 A32X (15 of them A321) coming. What will they do with those 737s? They will cost them more and more. E-195 might be a good solution, also more A319s, but I don't know if it wise to keep the 737s until 2017.
737RS? Now they want to improve their "marriage" with Boeing? But what "marriage" is Carson talking about? LH is the best Airbus customer ever, apart from ILFC and GECAS. (Counted by aircraft, probably even clearer by seats or list price.)

We had that discussion a couple of times. I think LH is interested in good relations with both manufacturers and will continue to operate aircraft from both manufacturers of large aircraft.
Airbus was often the better aircraft for LH´s needs so that is why they prefered them over Boeing over the last couple of years. The A320 was ordered when there was no 737NG, the A340 when there was no 777.
Now for the first time Airbus and Boeing offer a good and comparable aircraft at the time LH needs new aircraft.
The 30 A32x ordered last year will be used not only to replace older 737s but also the first generation of A320 so 30 aircraft are definitely not enough. The Embraer will very likely replace the Eurowings and Cityline Avros and Bae 146s.
When you see pictures of the aircraft there are always painted in LH Regional colors not mainline. I guess it is safe to say that they will not replace the 737-500
Picture:
http://www.embraer.com/english/conte...press_releases_detalhe.asp?id=1593

Quoting Thorben (Reply 10):
Either 783 or a mix of A321 (domestic and short-European hops) and A333 (for routes to Kazakhstan, etc.). Problem is probably lack of slots in FRA, otherwise more freq. with A321 to TXL, MUC, LHR. (LHR same with slots, btw.) When FRA opens the fourth runway, things should be easier.

With FRA opening a fourth runway and more direct flights from BBI Smile

airbazar · Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:02 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 10):
737RS? Now they want to improve their "marriage" with Boeing? But what "marriage" is Carson talking about?

IIRC, LH has operated every Boeing passenger jet except for the 777. That must mean something. To this day they still operate a large fleet of 737's and 747's, and are currently the only passenger 748 customer. They also still operate some 757's and 767's under the Condor brand.

columba · Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:12 pm

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 13):
They also still operate some 757's and 767's under the Condor brand.

Condor also was the launch customer of the 757-300 (although this could be one of the "lows" of the marriage LH/Boeing Wink

)
It is also very likely that 777Fs will be ordered either for "Newco" the DHL/LH Cargo joint venture or in 3-4 years to replace the MD11Fs.

zvezda · Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:16 pm

Quoting BosWashSprStar (Reply 2):
I'm curious, what mission characteristics does LH see in the A300 that makes the A330 an inappropriate replacement?

The lighter weight of the A300 makes it more efficient than the A330 for very short flights.

Quoting Columba (Reply 4):
So the evaluation is about to be done and they must know by now what aircraft they order so why no announcement ?

No, after the evaluation comes negotiation. Only after negotiations is the winner determined. The evaluations determine the price spread that makes one choice more attractive than another. For example, hypothetically, LH might determine based upon their evaluations that they will buy A350s if they cost less than $1.3M more (each) than 787s, but that they will buy 787s if the A350's price is more than $1.3M higher than that of the 787. Of course, there are all sorts of sundry terms and conditions that vary between the proposed contracts, each of which is assigned a dollar value for the sake of comparison.

ebj1248650 · Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:16 pm

Quoting Fraport (Reply 8):
Where do you read that? To me it sounds like they will replace at first their 737 classics with the all new 737 and later on even the A320s (with that same a/c).

I read that the same way.

flyorski · Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 16):
I read that the same way.

It does seem to say this, however I could see LH flying both the 737RS and the A320NG. They have long operated a dual fleet and I doubt this would change.

EDDB · Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:04 am

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
Lufthansa does not plan to make a decision on an order for either the Airbus A350 or the Boeing 787 before the end of the year, as Senior VP-Corporate Fleet Nico Buchholz told reporters that while the carrier is in the final phase of evaluations, it is in no rush to place an order.

Pretending the 'worst' case will happen and EK and BA choose the A350 and airlines in the US start buying 787s in large numbers, he might have to rethink his relaxedness or he'll end up burning money with old fashioned quads while the others show off with their next generation twins....

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
But according to Buchholz, Lufthansa is not concerned about the current lack of additional airlines buying the Intercontinental.

I still cant help thinking that after the 753 experience he keeps his options with the 748i, be it cancelling or switching to 748F... Cause otherwise he should get at least a little concerned by now!!! Time will tell....

Besides, I still think they might order at the very end of the year, cause with their huge profit this year they might want to save some tax by investing in new planes...

pnwtraveler · Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:06 am

Boeing has to be cautious about what it says about the 747-8 due to shareholder issues. Look at it this way. If I was LH I would be on the phone weekly to Boeing about other orders for the aircraft to ensure it was going to get built. I would imagine that LH is pretty much aware of ongoing discussions with other airlines regards to orders. Unless they are Star Alliance or other codeshare partners, they may not know specifically who. But I would bet they would know that x amount should be on the order books by x date. LH is able to be much less guarded in its statements.

columba · Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting EDDB (Reply 18):
Pretending the 'worst' case will happen and EK and BA choose the A350 and airlines in the US start buying 787s in large numbers, he might have to rethink his relaxedness or he'll end up burning money with old fashioned quads while the others show off with their next generation twins....

Maybe he s has made some agreements with the manufacturers. LH has placed orders with Airbus and Boeing last year so they will definitely talked about the 787 and A350 and when they could deliver and maybe reserved production slots.
Buchholz is relaxed and Carson is "eye-winking" so maybe that is for a reason Wink

Lets see what Leahy has to say when asked about LH Smile

AF2323 · Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 10):
Predictions are always difficult, especially when they are concerning the future.

TUNisia · Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting AFC_Ajax00 (Reply 11):
Interesting, I had not heard about some of the A300s being retrofitted for medium-long haul duty, where do they fly to?

I've flown on an LH A300 from CPH-FRA (though i think they stopped using it on this route now that the summer is over) and FRA-ATH. I know they also use them to MUC as well and I saw them in CAI last year. I'm sure someone can post the entire destination list.

In their timetable there was an article about the A300s being equipped with personal digital media players for biz pax soon.

columba · Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:16 am

Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 19):
Unless they are Star Alliance

Except for UA and TG I can not think of any Star Alliance member that could need the 747-8I.
ANA will maybe order it but not in the next few years, SQ will not order it as they said they see their future with the A380.
AC has phased out its 747s

Lufthansa · Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:24 am

Just quickly on the A330 vs A300 thing.

The A330 takes longer to turn around then the A300 does. Although that isn't such an issue flying
from say, Hong Kong to Singapore, or Taipei, it is an issue on shorter european legs. Lets not forget
the problems Qantas had when they tried to replace the 763 with the 332 on SYD to Melbourne and Brisbane cityflyer routes. The A332 just took longer then the 763 to turn around, and an extra 10 minutes per turn around adds up at the end of the day. Longer to refuel, longer to bored etc. It was completely QF's fault though because the 332 was never designed for 1 hr flights. This would be even more so on say, FRA to MUC or TXL with the A330. Add a bit longer flying time on average and this slightly longer turn around matters less and less...and go to 4 hr flights and it ceases to even be a consideration.

sandrozrh · Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 3):
Short haul, high volume I should think. AFAIK they operate or at least have operated flights such as FRA-MUC and FRA-LHR with A300s, should be easy to see that an A330 is a bit large for that.

Quoting TUNisia (Reply 22):

I've flown on an LH A300 from CPH-FRA (though i think they stopped using it on this route now that the summer is over) and FRA-ATH.

aswell as TXL/HAM/LHR/ZRH-FRA, from the top of my head.

CRJ900 · Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 12):
The Embraer will very likely replace the Eurowings and Cityline Avros and Bae 146s.

Wikipedia writes that the E190 will most likely go to Swiss and replace their Avros. Of course, Wiki may not be the most reliable source, but I guess someone there heard a rumour... (keyword on wiki: Lufthansa Cityline)

columba · Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:52 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 26):
Wikipedia writes that the E190 will most likely go to Swiss and replace their Avros. Of course, Wiki may not be the most reliable source, but I guess someone there heard a rumour... (keyword on wiki: Lufthansa Cityline)

Well the order originally was made by Swiss/Crossair for Emb170 and changed by LH into Emb 190s.
On the other hand A330s recently ordered were confirmed to go to Swiss but nothing in that direction regarding the Embraers.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 24):
The A330 takes longer to turn around then the A300 does. Although that isn't such an issue flying
from say, Hong Kong to Singapore, or Taipei, it is an issue on shorter european legs. Lets not forget
the problems Qantas had when they tried to replace the 763 with the 332 on SYD to Melbourne and Brisbane cityflyer routes. The A332 just took longer then the 763 to turn around, and an extra 10 minutes per turn around adds up at the end of the day. Longer to refuel, longer to bored etc. It was completely QF's fault though because the 332 was never designed for 1 hr flights. This would be even more so on say, FRA to MUC or TXL with the A330. Add a bit longer flying time on average and this slightly longer turn around matters less and less...and go to 4 hr flights and it ceases to even be a consideration.

One issue LH has with the A333 on domestic routes is that the wingspan of the A333 is too big for most of LH´s terminals.
For example there is only terminal that can accomodat the A333 in TXL and the gate in FRA for domestic flights are also too small.

EDDB · Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:53 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 20):
Maybe he s has made some agreements with the manufacturers. LH has placed orders with Airbus and Boeing last year so they will definitely talked about the 787 and A350 and when they could deliver and maybe reserved production slots.

True, but at the pace the 787 is selling, boy I doubt they could still deliver the numbers LH wants (that is of course unless Boeing might go ahead with a second production line)! Considering that AB/LT get their first 787 in 2013 but most A330 leasing contracts will expire around 2011, I suppose there was really no chance for them getting earlier slots. And remember, up to now they are the biggest european 787 customer (and I don't think LH will top that, 25+25 is huge order)!

pa201 · Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:00 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 24):
Just quickly on the A330 vs A300 thing.

The A330 takes longer to turn around then the A300 does. Although that isn't such an issue flying
from say, Hong Kong to Singapore, or Taipei, it is an issue on shorter european legs. Lets not forget
the problems Qantas had when they tried to replace the 763 with the 332 on SYD to Melbourne and Brisbane cityflyer routes. The A332 just took longer then the 763 to turn around, and an extra 10 minutes per turn around adds up at the end of the day. Longer to refuel, longer to bored etc. It was completely QF's fault though because the 332 was never designed for 1 hr flights. This would be even more so on say, FRA to MUC or TXL with the A330. Add a bit longer flying time on average and this slightly longer turn around matters less and less...and go to 4 hr flights and it ceases to even be a consideration.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 7):
I suspect they view the A330 as being too much (size/weight wise) of an airplane for the high cycle short hop domestic and European flying the A300s mostly operate.

The A330 is really optimized for medium-longer haul operations and is definately a lager bird.

Actually, the reason given in the article is that the A330's wingspan is larger than that A300, by just enough to make it incompatible with MUC gate stands. The A330 would require "two gates at MUC" because of the wingspan being too large. Although I don't quite understand it, that is, infact, the reason quoted by LH as why the A330 is not suitable for . intra-german/domestic ops. Does LH use a dedicated set of gates for domestic flights at MUC that would not have the clearance the A330 needs ? Is that what this could be refereing to ?

columba · Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:06 am

Quoting EDDB (Reply 28):
Considering that AB/LT get their first 787 in 2013 but most A330 leasing contracts will expire around 2011, I suppose there was really no chance for them getting earlier slots. And remember, up to now they are the biggest european 787 customer (and I don't think LH will top that, 25+25 is huge order)!

I recently read an article about AB and the 787 and it was said that before they get their own 787s they will lease some to replace the first A330s when their leases expire.
I think LH´s order for 787s/A350s will be around the same amount 20 + 20 or 25 + 25.

jacobin777 · Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:08 am

Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 1):

Haha, he'sprobably more optimistic than Boeing themselves

...have a source for that comment or is it just speculation? Even LH CEO Mayrhuber stated he expects more sales of the B748I.....

Quoting AFC_Ajax00 (Reply 11):
Interesting, I had not heard about some of the A300s being retrofitted for medium-long haul duty, where do they fly to?

...KHI is one of the routes....

Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 19):
If I was LH I would be on the phone weekly to Boeing about other orders for the aircraft to ensure it was going to get built.

...given how many B748F's have been sold, the plane will be built.....

columba · Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:09 am

Quoting PA201 (Reply 29):
Does LH use a dedicated set of gates for domestic flights at MUC that would not have the clearance the A330 needs ? Is that what this could be referei

See my reply 27. The gates for most domestic flights -not in MUC but elsewhere, too - are only big enough for the A306.

Thorben · Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:14 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 12):
LH needs their A330 primarly for growth so far I don´t know of any A340-300 that have been replaced by A333.

LH sold to ex-Sabena A343s to Air Namibia. Also, they have 8 older A343s, that are not -X like their rest.

Quoting Columba (Reply 12):
The A333 is used on routes primarly used by the A343 before but the A343 is now operating different routes to either new destinations, or to existing routes but from other German cities rather than FRA (HAM, DUS, MUC).

MUC already has a lot of LH longhaul, DUS will see YYZ. Any news on HAM?

Quoting Columba (Reply 12):
We had that discussion a couple of times. I think LH is interested in good relations with both manufacturers and will continue to operate aircraft from both manufacturers of large aircraft.

Yes, the question remains: How much from which manuf.?

Quoting Columba (Reply 12):
Now for the first time Airbus and Boeing offer a good and comparable aircraft at the time LH needs new aircraft.

Not really comparable as long as Boeing doesn't bring out a 70m+ long 787.

Quoting Columba (Reply 12):
The 30 A32x ordered last year will be used not only to replace older 737s but also the first generation of A320 so 30 aircraft are definitely not enough.

Quoting Columba (Reply 12):
he Embraer will very likely replace the Eurowings and Cityline Avros and Bae 146s.
When you see pictures of the aircraft there are always painted in LH Regional colors not mainline. I guess it is safe to say that they will not replace the 737-500

No, they have RJ85s, each with 93 seats. The E-190 and E-195 are bigger than that, have 95-115 seats. The 735 has only 103 seats. So they could use 18 E-190 to replace the RJ-85s and 12 E-195s to replace the same number of 735s, but are you sure the RJs need to go before the 735? They have 30 735s, why not replace them with 30 E-Jets?

Quoting Columba (Reply 12):
With FRA opening a fourth runway and more direct flights from BBI Smile

When? 2012? 2015? 2020?

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 13):
IIRC, LH has operated every Boeing passenger jet except for the 777. That must mean something.

Yes, it means that the 777 failed at every RFP at a very good Boeing customer. Now what does that mean?

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 13):
To this day they still operate a large fleet of 737's and 747's, and are currently the only passenger 748 customer. They also still operate some 757's and 767's under the Condor brand.

Yes, but the 744s will go, the 737s should go, and LH is selling its share in DE. Anyway, LH has been a good Boeing customer, but they have been an even better Airbus customer. So talking of a "marriage" doesn't fit to it.

Quoting Columba (Reply 14):
It is also very likely that 777Fs will be ordered either for "Newco" the DHL/LH Cargo joint venture or in 3-4 years to replace the MD11Fs.

Replace whose MD-11s? LH's? Why would they actually be in the new company?

Thorben · Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 27):
Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 26):
Wikipedia writes that the E190 will most likely go to Swiss and replace their Avros. Of course, Wiki may not be the most reliable source, but I guess someone there heard a rumour... (keyword on wiki: Lufthansa Cityline)

Well the order originally was made by Swiss/Crossair for Emb170 and changed by LH into Emb 190s.
On the other hand A330s recently ordered were confirmed to go to Swiss but nothing in that direction regarding the Embraers.

LX is still a company of its own, even if owned by LH. So the E-Jets are going to LH. We'll see with those A330s, afaik the order has not been firmed.

dank · Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:26 am

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 16):
Quoting Fraport (Reply 8):
Where do you read that? To me it sounds like they will replace at first their 737 classics with the all new 737 and later on even the A320s (with that same a/c).

I read that the same way.

I read it as they are considering a single replacement for the 737/320 fleet. but I also don't read it as it necessarily means that they would go with the Boeing option. I'm not a subscriber, so I only know what's quoted here, but I can't tell if the question the reporter asked was directly related to the 737RS. e.g. "would you consider being a launch customer for the 737 replacement?" Considering the lack of definition on both projects, it wouldn't make much sense otherwise.

cheers.

EDDB · Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:29 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 26):
Wikipedia writes that the E190 will most likely go to Swiss and replace their Avros. Of course, Wiki may not be the most reliable source, but I guess someone there heard a rumour... (keyword on wiki: Lufthansa Cityline)

LH definitely needs a 735 replacement, that's a fact...
So if they're supposed to go to LH, they can't be flown by CLH, cause a contract between LH and their pilots (KTV) limits the number of planes bigger than 70seats being operated by CLH! When LH broke that contract last year by operating a large number of CRJ-900s, they reached an agreement with the pilots by giving them half the amount of captains positions on that fleet! At the moment LH and the pilots union (VC) are negotiating the terms under which the E190s will be operated and rumours are spreading that it is a possibility that all(!) CLH pilots will be integrated in the KTV under certain conditions, resolving the contractual problems... If that rumour should become reality I'm pretty sure that the E190s will be operated by CLH, flown by LH pilots...
Let's wait and see, I suppose they will reach an agreement by year end!

columba · Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:04 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 33):
They have 30 735s, why not replace them with 30 E-Jets?

Because LH does not seem to see the Emb 195 as a 737 replacement:

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
The 737s are approaching an average age of 17 years. But Bucholz stressed that it would be fine for the airline to get a replacement in the 2015-2017 timeframe if suitable engine technology is not ready before then.

I don´t say that they will be choose Boeing on this one. The C-Series seems to be an option, too and LH is also a good Bombardier customer.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 33):
IIRC, LH has operated every Boeing passenger jet except for the 777. That must mean something.
Yes, it means that the 777 failed at every RFP at a very good Boeing customer. Now what does that mean?

Well I would not say it that harsh. Fact is that LH was/is only interested in two versions of the 777.
The 777F for LH Cargo and the 777-300ER. We also know that the 777-300ER was evaluated twice. Once the questions was additional A346s or adding a new fleet type with the 777 so it is no wonder that the T7 has lost given the huge A330/A340 fleet. The other time it was evaluated as 747-400 replacement and has lost against a larger Boeing product.
We will how LH Cargo will decide about the 777F in a few years.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 33):
Replace whose MD-11s? LH's? Why would they actually be in the new company?

Lufthansa Cargo´s MD 11 of course, sorry if that has not been clear enough Wink

columba · Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:06 am

Btw, would it not be cool if LH would fit winglets on its 737 given the fact that they will fly them for some time Smile

EDDB · Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 38):
Btw, would it not be cool if LH would fit winglets on its 737 given the fact that they will fly them for some time Smile

Interesting article on that subject in the new issue of Flug Revue... The CEO of Fischer Advanced Composites in Austria said in an interview that he does not see a large enough market for 737 old generation winglets! Concerning the age of some 737s, a set of winglets might more or less double the remaining value of that plane... Wink

Thorben · Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 37):
Because LH does not seem to see the Emb 195 as a 737 replacement:

Why not, the size would fit well?

Quoting Columba (Reply 37):
Well I would not say it that harsh. Fact is that LH was/is only interested in two versions of the 777.
The 777F for LH Cargo and the 777-300ER. We also know that the 777-300ER was evaluated twice. Once the questions was additional A346s or adding a new fleet type with the 777 so it is no wonder that the T7 has lost given the huge A330/A340 fleet. The other time it was evaluated as 747-400 replacement and has lost against a larger Boeing product.

To be fair (which I am not often), I have to admit the main reason is probably that LH engineers had a huge impact on the development of the A340, which is probably the main reason for them never buying T7s.

Quoting Columba (Reply 37):
We will how LH Cargo will decide about the 777F in a few years.

Probably in favour of the A332F. Or the A333F, if it is ever build.

Quoting Columba (Reply 37):
Lufthansa Cargo´s MD 11 of course, sorry if that has not been clear enough Wink

Well, why would they be in the new company?

dhefty · Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 10):
LH is the best Airbus customer ever, apart from ILFC and GECAS. (Counted by aircraft, probably even clearer by seats or list price.)

US Airways is Airbus' largest airline customer with 267 orders and 185 deliveries. Currently US Airways operates 205 Airbus aircraft, including leased aircraft from third parties.

Lufthansa is #2 with 245 orders and 188 deliveries. Lufthansa currently operates 151 Airbus aircraft.

EasyJet is #3 with 227 orders, 107 deliveries and 107 in operation.

Northwest is #4 with 202 orders and 184 deliveries. Northwest currently operates 159 Airbus aircraft, so in terms of operating aircraft, NW is actually #3.

Air France is actually #2 terms of operating aircraft, with 182, although their orders are only 139 with 127 deliveries, due to the large number of leased aircraft.

United Airlines is #4 with 195 orders, 153 deliveries and 152 in operation.

In term of seats and value, I would agree LH is #1, since their wide-body fleet consists of 122 orders, 105 deliveries and 69 in operation. Emirates is #2 in that category with 98 orders, 51 deliveries and 50 in operation. Air France is #3 with 68 orders, 56 deliveries, and 35 in operation.

columba · Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:53 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 40):
Well, why would they be in the new company?

Einer von uns beiden kommt aus dem Mustopf Wink

I meant that LH Cargo will order the 777F eventually either for the new company or at a later date to replace their own MD 11Fs.

USAF336TFS · Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 33):
Replace whose MD-11s? LH's

LH Cargo's...

Quoting Thorben (Reply 40):
Probably in favour of the A332F. Or the A333F, if it is ever build.

I believe the 777F is the more likely choice for them. Even more likely is the 747-8F.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 40):
Well, why would they be in the new company?

They've already annouced that a new joint cargo airline will be formed with LH Cargo and DHL having 50% ownship each. In actuality, both companies have had a close relationship for years. One of the factors taken into account when LH Cargo purchased it's new-build MD-11s. This is nothing new. Jade Cargo is another joint venture where LH Cargo is a substantial owner. And they ordered 747-400ERFs.

I agree with Columba ... The new venture will be a 777/747 mix.

[Edited 2007-09-14 20:20:08]

PA101 · Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:31 am

Quoting TUNisia (Reply 22):

LHs A300 - reconfigured with the old J seats - now also serve FRA-ALA, FRA-TSE-ALA, and the 2-daily FRA-CAI. These A300s are now equipped with 54 J seats and 163 Y seats instead of the 280 all Y that is used within Germany/Europe.

Thorben · Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 41):

Pretty good analysis, indeed.

I forgot to add US Airways East and West in the Excel sheet. AFAIK the "US Airways West" is the former America West, that merged into US Airways: If that is so, one might start discussing whether LX's Airbusses would have to be added to LH, although they didn't really merge, probably due to legal reasons (Swiss laws) that do not exist within the US.

Besides, LH has already retired a lot of Airbus planes (A300, A310, A342), US hasn't. So US bought clearly more per year.

Easyjet and United are surely nice customers, but they don't have a single widebody.

NW is a good one, they are really going for widebodies, too. They just need some A380, A346, and A350.

Air France is certainly a good customer, too, but unlike LH, they operate most Boeing types, too.

Quoting Columba (Reply 42):
Einer von uns beiden kommt aus dem Mustopf Wink

If in doubt, that is me.

Quoting Columba (Reply 42):
I meant that LH Cargo will order the 777F eventually either for the new company or at a later date to replace their own MD 11Fs.

OK, the new company might go for anything, LH I expect to take A332Fs. However, if LH goes for the 787, some 77Fs wouldn't hurt, due to cockpit commonality.

sandrozrh · Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 43):

I believe the 777F is the more likely choice for them. Even more likely is the 747-8F.

Thats what you think, becaue you have that stars&stripes flag next to your name Wink

Fact is, nobody here knows what the future strategy of LH Cargo is, and thus we cannot make any valid guesses of how their fleet will look like in a 10-20 years time. We'll just have to wait and see, all types, the 777, 747 and A330 are still a possibility.

Thorben · Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:41 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 43):
LH Cargo's...

Given how quickly LH replaces its airplanes, they might as well wait for the A350F.

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 43):
I believe the 777F is the more likely choice for them. Even more likely is the 747-8F.

747-8F is very likely, due to pax version order and badly missed nose door. However, that doesn't rule out having A332Fs to complement them.

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 43):
They've already annouced that a new joint cargo airline will be formed with LH Cargo and DHL having 50% ownship each. In actuality, both companies have had a close relationship for years. One of the factors taken into account when LH Cargo purchased it's new-build MD-11s. This is nothing new. Jade Cargo is another joint venture where LH Cargo is a substantial owner. And they ordered 747-400ERFs.

I agree with Columba ... The new venture will be a 777/747 mix.

And the question is: Will LH give some of its MD-11s to the new company, or will the new company order new planes? I would say the latter, but I have no Ahnung. 747 and 777 were mentioned as possible aircraft, remains to be seen whether they want only one type or actually both of them.

columba · Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 46):
Thats what you think, becaue you have that stars&stripes flag next to your name Wink Fact is, nobody here knows what the future strategy of LH Cargo is, and thus we cannot make any valid guesses of how their fleet will look like in a 10-20 years time. We'll just have to wait and see, all types, the 777, 747 and A330 are still a possibility.

I believe he has more insight than you might think, LH has employees all over the world Wink

TeamAmerica · Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:59 am

RE: A300s replacement

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
Buchholz said that the A330 does not work as a replacement for the A300.

Buchholz went on to explain "the A330 does not work as a replacement for the A300 because of the wingspan. The aircraft would occupy two gates at key airports, such as Berlin Tegel, and thus use up too much space."

This may be significant. Will the B783's 52m wingspan fit those gates? scratchchin

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