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Thorben
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:08 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 49):
This may be significant. Will the B783's 52m wingspan fit those gates? scratchchin

That question is very interesting, and to my shame I must say that I do not know that. The A306 has 45m, that is a whole 7m less, and the A306 already seems too big for the airport.

Maybe you just found the reason for LH not having bought the 783 yet.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
ikramerica
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:17 am

Quoting EDDB (Reply 18):
I still cant help thinking that after the 753 experience he keeps his options with the 748i

I think it's different though. The entire 757 program was canceled, while here, the 748F will not be canceled, so as long as the 748i is developed (and they are doing that right now, already spending millions upon millions), it isn't going to stop being offered for sale.

Quoting PA201 (Reply 29):
Actually, the reason given in the article is that the A330's wingspan is larger than that A300, by just enough to make it incompatible with MUC gate stands. The A330 would require "two gates at MUC" because of the wingspan being too large.

This is true, but can be worked around. If you place A330/A320/A330/A320 at gates, then you can fit the wider jet without eating up too spaces. You must repaint the A320 line (or paint an alternate) to move the centerline over to accommodate this, and shift the A330 line over as well, but it can be done at most airports.

Boeing proposed a similar solution to fitting 748i aircraft into 744 boxes without needing an A380 sized gate. The 748i could be placed next to a 777 or 787 and the two aircraft could fit into 2 744 gates without much trouble.

There used to be a drawing of this in one of the airport planning docs, but I can't find it anymore.

Quoting Dank (Reply 35):
I read it as they are considering a single replacement for the 737/320 fleet. but I also don't read it as it necessarily means that they would go with the Boeing option.

I read it as they would strongly consider the 737RS to replace the 737s, but could also replace the A320 fleet should it be the right answer at that time. It isn't a confirmation that they are looking for one aircraft to replace all the planes, nor that they will definately buy the 737RS, but that if it is truly a "game changer" they would buy it.

This is an important statement in that it tries to assure shareholders that LH won't take the new EU company line of "narrowbody to Airbus" by default. I think LH was looking like they were going to go Airbus only, but the 748i order coupled with the statements regarding the 737RS are meant to assure shareholders that they will choose "the best plane" no matter what it is. If it's the 737RS, they will choose it. If it's the A320NG, they will choose that...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:33 am

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 46):
Thats what you think, becaue you have that stars&stripes flag next to your name

Wrong! The correct answer is that my wife works for LH Cargo. So much for your knee-jerk reaction and false assumption. Oh, and I'm very proud to have that flag by my name.

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 46):
Fact is, nobody here knows what the future strategy of LH Cargo

True, but read my comments correctly... I said "believe" and that belief is based what has been talked about by LH staff, both in the press and unofficially. On A.Net, it is considered rumor only, and until announced by LHC, is just that. Could I be wrong about the particular aircraft the new entity will order? Sure I can. But given the time-frames involved, experience of DLH and LH Cargo's crews, and prior buying habits, let alone the type of aircraft both currently fly, I would say that my gut feelings are probably not far off the mark, huh?

[Edited 2007-09-14 21:38:47]
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:46 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 48):
I believe he has more insight than you might think, LH has employees all over the world

Thanks Columba... I figured I'd let him in on the secret in the above posting. I won't even get into how far up the food chain she is..  Wink
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sandrozrh
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:53 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 48):
I believe he has more insight than you might think, LH has employees all over the world

Uh i'm sure he's not a management member of LHC, and thus knows about as much as I do  Wink He sent me an interesting pm btw  laughing 
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 54):
Uh i'm sure he's not a management member of LHC

That's the second false assumption you've made. She's been with them for about as long as you've been on this planet, if the information in your profile is accurate. But, yes she is in management.

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 54):
He sent me an interesting pm btw

And if you'd like I'll tell everyone what I PMed to you. I mearly invited you to revisit this thread for my response to your comments.  Smile
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
gbfra
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:59 am

Just to give some more insight:

LH had some weeks ago (I knew about it but did not participate) invited German journalists to a flight to Seattle this week in order to present the B748 together with the Boeing people. Among others, Scott Carson was present.

(Having known about this trip in advance I was really amused of Keesje's "Will LH switch their order of the B748 to the B748-F?" thread and the numerous comments on this thread here on a.net.)

Now, remembering the flights LH organised with Airbus on the A380 you can clearly see that LH has no preference for one company. They want to work with Airbus and Boeing.
The fundamental things apply as time goes by
 
EDDB
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:11 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 51):
I think it's different though. The entire 757 program was canceled, while here, the 748F will not be canceled, so as long as the 748i is developed (and they are doing that right now, already spending millions upon millions), it isn't going to stop being offered for sale.

I suppose when they ordered the 753 in 1996 they thought as well that this program would have a lot of years ahead...

I think, as an airline, you really have to be cautious with subtypes that only sell in small numbers... Let's take a look back, B743... A342... B753... B747SP... or in the mid future A345... B764... You won't get much money back on the second hand market if you don't need them anymore, so you'll have to fly them till they fall apart, which is getting more and more costly with every year (ask some Qantas guys on the 743...) since spare parts (at least the x% that your plane is different from the others) are as well only produced in small amounts (which of course won't make them cheaper either)! Freighter conversion? Nobody will start a conversion program for only a few planes (none of the above mentioned did enjoy a second life as freighter)... So in case of the 748i, I doubt that even if they build a total of let's say 50-80, there will be someone being interested in converting them (i suppose something like 100+ would justify thinking about starting a conversion program)! Especially when you need a 747 freighter WITH nose door, which most of the large cargo operators surely appreciate...
 
dhefty
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:17 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 45):
Pretty good analysis, indeed.

Thank you, Thorben.

It will be interesting to watch the 787/A350 battle. Long-haul airlines are predominantly Boeing-equipped, but Airbus may strike back with the A350-1000 against the 777-300ER.
 
dank
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 51):
This is an important statement in that it tries to assure shareholders that LH won't take the new EU company line of "narrowbody to Airbus" by default. I think LH was looking like they were going to go Airbus only, but the 748i order coupled with the statements regarding the 737RS are meant to assure shareholders that they will choose "the best plane" no matter what it is. If it's the 737RS, they will choose it. If it's the A320NG, they will choose that...

 checkmark  I agree. I was commenting more about the inference that appeared to be made by some here that this meant that the 737RS was the only option to replace the 737s (i.e. that they were essentially saying the 320NG wouldn't be an option). But I think that we both are on the same page that they would pick the option (or options should they go with the two model narrowbody system they have now) that makes most sense. And I also agree that the real message is that they aren't interested until there is a big leap in efficiency gains (i.e. one could probably make a new competitor with todays engine offerings that could do what the 777NG has done to the 340NG, but not what the 787 has done to the 330/767).

The real game-changer, I think, is going to be getting a longer ranged narrowbody (that would be part of those two programs).

cheers.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:41 am

Quoting EDDB (Reply 57):
B743... A342... B753... B747SP... or in the mid future A345... B764...

But none of those was part of a "new" model cycle. Well, I guess the A345 was, but it was an ill advised product, introducing a new quad when the world was looking for twins...

The 743 was a half-assed attempt to improve the 747 without committing to the changes of the 744. The A342 was just a shorter A343 that offered more range with worse economics. The 753 was a long overdue 757 stretch that offered no major new technologies (and shorter range).

The 764 was the same for the 767 program as the 757-300, except it is part of a family that will live on as the 767F, and thus can still be purchased by other airlines should they want it. But it's time has passed, and since it wasn't based on new engines or reshaped wings (other than wingtips) or any other improvements, it was not desirable to carriers when there were A330s or even 772ERs that were more versatile, and now there are 787s to buy instead. (and to some extent, the 757-300 had the same problem, as there were widebodies that could carry more cargo, and the 757-200 was losing orders to the 738 and A321, so the family was dying).

The 748i offers: next gen engines; capacity increase; payload increase; less noise; better economics; range increase; reshaped wings for better efficiency; other improvements.

Further, there is no "direct replacement" in the market right now nor will there be for 10+ years. While you can choose to fly A380s or 77Ws or A350-1000s (in 8 years) or use 2 787s, the 748i does have a unique place, splitting the huge seating gap between the 77W/A346/A35X and A388 halfway down the middle.

LH seems to think there's room for it, BA also thinks there's room for it (though we'll see what the final answer is over many years of orders). EK thinks there's room for it (if they get a bit more range, so they say). SQ and QF don't agree. NH and JL might not agree either, but think there's no room for the A388. Some chinese carriers will likely buy it for political reasons. UA and NW may end up buying it, but who knows.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:59 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 47):
And the question is: Will LH give some of its MD-11s to the new company

That's a great question! And I'm not sure they've completely decided it yet. Every time fleet renewal questions are asked of LH Cargo's management, the old "We'll buy new aircraft, when the MD-11s are profitable" mantra is used.
If it sounds like they're ducking the question to you, well, you're not alone.
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zvezda
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:02 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 60):
I guess the A345 was, but it was an ill advised product, introducing a new quad when the world was looking for twins...

I suspect the A340-500/600 program has generated a reasonable RoI for Airbus. I also suspect that the marginal cost of developing the A340-500 (perhaps $250-400M), given the A340-600, has also produced a reasonable RoI for Airbus. Clearly the A340-500/600 has not been a runaway success like the A320, but ill-advised seems a little strong. I think one could probably have made a stronger argument that the A340-300 was ill-advised. Airbus might have been better off waiting for the engines needed to extend the payload/range performance of the A330.
 
EDDB
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:42 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 60):
But none of those was part of a "new" model cycle. Well, I guess the A345 was, but it was an ill advised product, introducing a new quad when the world was looking for twins...

The 743 was a half-assed attempt to improve the 747 without committing to the changes of the 744. The A342 was just a shorter A343 that offered more range with worse economics. The 753 was a long overdue 757 stretch that offered no major new technologies (and shorter range).

The 764 was the same for the 767 program as the 757-300, except it is part of a family that will live on as the 767F, and thus can still be purchased by other airlines should they want it. But it's time has passed, and since it wasn't based on new engines or reshaped wings (other than wingtips) or any other improvements, it was not desirable to carriers when there were A330s or even 772ERs that were more versatile, and now there are 787s to buy instead. (and to some extent, the 757-300 had the same problem, as there were widebodies that could carry more cargo, and the 757-200 was losing orders to the 738 and A321, so the family was dying).

The 748i offers: next gen engines; capacity increase; payload increase; less noise; better economics; range increase; reshaped wings for better efficiency; other improvements.

Further, there is no "direct replacement" in the market right now nor will there be for 10+ years. While you can choose to fly A380s or 77Ws or A350-1000s (in 8 years) or use 2 787s, the 748i does have a unique place, splitting the huge seating gap between the 77W/A346/A35X and A388 halfway down the middle.

LH seems to think there's room for it, BA also thinks there's room for it (though we'll see what the final answer is over many years of orders). EK thinks there's room for it (if they get a bit more range, so they say). SQ and QF don't agree. NH and JL might not agree either, but think there's no room for the A388. Some chinese carriers will likely buy it for political reasons. UA and NW may end up buying it, but who knows.

 checkmark 

All agreed!

I'm also quite sure that someone will order (surely BA being my best guess), but which numbers are we talking here? My personal guess (considering the low momentum the sales campaign has at the moment, the A388 as kind of a competitor, more point-to-point, etc.) I would estimate 70-90 748i being built! So my point is: Do I take the risk of being one of the few operators? If yes I have to be 100% sure that this plane will offer me a performance advantage that compensates for the money I might lose in the end when it gets hard selling, maintaining or converting it... Since I hate maths I'll leave the calculation to Mr. Buchholz and all the others  Smile
But my feeling tells me that most major airlines might misuse an A388 and speculate on a better price on the second hand market... I think BA and EK are crucial campaigns, if Boeing should fail in securing orders from these 2, I think that might seal the fate of the 748i....
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columba
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:43 pm

Quoting EDDB (Reply 57):
(none of the above mentioned did enjoy a second life as freighter)..

The 747-300 is offered as a freighter
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
EDDB
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:54 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 64):
The 747-300 is offered as a freighter

Really? Didn't know that... Who's doing the conversion program?
 
trent900
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:57 pm

This all depends on the size of aircraft airlines want. The 787 & A350 are not direct competitors. As a A330/340 replacment the 787 would be good but anything larger the A350 is the obvious answer.

D.
 
columba
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:03 pm

Quoting EDDB (Reply 65):
Really? Didn't know that... Who's doing the conversion program?

Don´t know but I saw pictures here on a.net of converted 747-300 freighters. I think the difference of a 747-200, 747-300 and 747-400 conversion is not that big. The -300 might be a little more expensive to operate than the -400 (fuel consumption and 3 man cockpit).
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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BlueSky1976
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:28 pm

Quoting Trent900 (Reply 66):
The 787 & A350 are not direct competitors.

Sure they are.
787-9 competes with A350-800.
787-10 competes with A350-900.
The only products that don't have their respective counterparts are 787-8 and A350-1000, though the latter won't be true anymore once Boeing comes out with Y3-8.
The queen of the skies is dead.
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:59 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 12):
The 30 A32x ordered last year will be used not only to replace older 737s but also the first generation of A320 so 30 aircraft are definitely not enough. The Embraer will very likely replace the Eurowings and Cityline Avros and Bae 146s.
When you see pictures of the aircraft there are always painted in LH Regional colors not mainline. I guess it is safe to say that they will not replace the 737-500

for the foreseeable time no A32x will be replaced. afaik, some 737s will start to be phased out in 2009, i think.

I'm not too sure that Embraer jets will go to EW. i think CLH and EN are more likely candidates. keep in mind there will also be 15 additional CRJ 900s to be delivered to LH.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 26):
Wikipedia writes that the E190 will most likely go to Swiss and replace their Avros. Of course, Wiki may not be the most reliable source, but I guess someone there heard a rumour... (keyword on wiki: Lufthansa Cityline)

in this case, Wikipedia is way off. the Avros at LX are there to stay for the next years to come. but also, LH has many more options on Embraer jets, perhaps some day, some of those will find a new home with LX...

Quoting Thorben (Reply 33):
No, they have RJ85s, each with 93 seats. The E-190 and E-195 are bigger than that, have 95-115 seats. The 735 has only 103 seats. So they could use 18 E-190 to replace the RJ-85s and 12 E-195s to replace the same number of 735s, but are you sure the RJs need to go before the 735? They have 30 735s, why not replace them with 30 E-Jets?

capacity-wise, the EMB 195 would certainly be a good replacement for LH's 735s. however, this would mean that those aircraft would be piloted by LH and not LH Regional. it is much cheaper to have CLH or other regionals operate those birds than LH mainline.

Quoting EDDB (Reply 36):
LH definitely needs a 735 replacement, that's a fact...
So if they're supposed to go to LH, they can't be flown by CLH, cause a contract between LH and their pilots (KTV) limits the number of planes bigger than 70seats being operated by CLH! When LH broke that contract last year by operating a large number of CRJ-900s, they reached an agreement with the pilots by giving them half the amount of captains positions on that fleet! At the moment LH and the pilots union (VC) are negotiating the terms under which the E190s will be operated and rumours are spreading that it is a possibility that all(!) CLH pilots will be integrated in the KTV under certain conditions, resolving the contractual problems... If that rumour should become reality I'm pretty sure that the E190s will be operated by CLH, flown by LH pilots...

currently, there's a limit as to how many aircraft with more than 70 seats can be operated by LH's regional subisidiaries. as stated above, in order for CLH, EW and EN to operate Avros/BAe's, there were exceptions integrated into the tariff framework, as well as for the CRJ 900s.
I have no doubts that eventually, all Embraers will be operated let's by a mix of CLH and EN (and perhaps even others?). but if CL pilots are going to be integrated into the KTV, there goes a huge benefit of CLH: lower salaries.
perhaps again there will be an exception meaning inclusion in the KTV but still lower salaries? let's wait and see....
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
columba
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:16 pm

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 69):
for the foreseeable time no A32x will be replaced. afaik, some 737s will start to be phased out in 2009, i think.

I'm not too sure that Embraer jets will go to EW. i think CLH and EN are more likely candidates. keep in mind there will also be 15 additional CRJ 900s to be delivered to LH.

If I recall correctly it was always said that LH wants to replace their 737 classics and earlier A320s. LH´s oldest A320 must be from 1988/89 while the 737s are only slightly older with the first delivered in 1986.
I agree with you on the possibilty that the Emb 190s will go CLH or EH. But I still think EW is an option.

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 69):
capacity-wise, the EMB 195 would certainly be a good replacement for LH's 735s. however, this would mean that those aircraft would be piloted by LH and not LH Regional. it is much cheaper to have CLH or other regionals operate those birds than LH mainline.

Okay the question now is then: If LH has regional aircraft that are close in the capacity of the 737-500 do they have the need for a mainline aircraft in that category ?
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
EDDB
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:36 pm

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 69):
I have no doubts that eventually, all Embraers will be operated let's by a mix of CLH and EN (and perhaps even others?). but if CL pilots are going to be integrated into the KTV, there goes a huge benefit of CLH: lower salaries.
perhaps again there will be an exception meaning inclusion in the KTV but still lower salaries? let's wait and see....

I find it hard to believe as well, but according to some sources close to the VC it seems to be an option....
As you said, let's wait and see...
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:50 pm

I believe that LH is waiting on the A300 replacement to see just how big the 737RS gets in its largest version, as this would have the least issues in replacement, while the 783 has just a few snags like the wingspan.
 
zvezda
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:23 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 64):
The 747-300 is offered as a freighter

Other than conversions of older aircraft, the only 747s offered by Boeing are 747-8s.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 68):
once Boeing comes out with Y3-8.

... if that ever happens, which I doubt. During the biggest sales boom in history, VLA sales are nearly non-existent. If I were the Boeing CEO now, I would fire any executive who even suggested developing a Y3. It's difficult to think of a more reliable way to flush $10B+ down the toilet (government programmes excluded, of course).
 
ZRH
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:31 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 30):
I think LH´s order for 787s/A350s will be around the same amount 20 + 20 or 25 + 25.

I think the order will be much bigger. They will also order for Swiss. LX will have to replace 24 330/340.
 
columba
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:54 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 73):
The 747-300 is offered as a freighter
Other than conversions of older aircraft, the only 747s offered by Boeing are 747-8s.

Never said that the 747-300 freighter conversion is offered by Boeing. It was just said earlier that there are some aircraft -including the 747-300 - that are not converted into freighters. I was just saying that there are conversion programs for the 747-300 :

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Quoting ZRH (Reply 74):
I think the order will be much bigger. They will also order for Swiss. LX will have to replace 24 330/340

Could very well be but LH is also know for placing additional orders and the first orders for new aircraft are usually between 15-10 aircraft. But this was of course before they bought LX and aircraft they ordered after that were either orders for existing aircraft or aircraft that will not be in use with LX (e.g. 747-8I -which is sad since I always liked the Swissair 747-300s).
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
CRJ900
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:41 pm

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 69):
I'm not too sure that Embraer jets will go to EW. i think CLH and EN are more likely candidates. keep in mind there will also be 15 additional CRJ 900s to be delivered to LH.

I find it amusing that while other airlines are fiercely reducing the number of aircraft types down to one or two from preferably one manufacturer, LH has been shopping at Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier and Embraer lately. Great for aviation enthusiasts, plus the fact that LH is earning shitloads of money even with such a complex fleet. LH mgmt must have a great nose for business.

CityLine will be one huge airline if the E190 and CRJ900 on order and option are to fly with them.
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
columba
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:43 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 76):
LH has been shopping at Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier and Embraer lately.

Even more amusing if you remember the past threads claiming that LH will become an all Airbus operator.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Thorben
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:52 pm

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 58):

It will be interesting to watch the 787/A350 battle. Long-haul airlines are predominantly Boeing-equipped, but Airbus may strike back with the A350-1000 against the 777-300ER.

LH is always looking to have enough of both manufacturer's planes in their fleet. In the last decades they bought a lot of Airbus long-haul planes, I think that some 789s to replace the A343s are likely, in order to bring it back to an equilibrium. A346 might at some point be replaced by A3510.

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 61):
That's a great question! And I'm not sure they've completely decided it yet. Every time fleet renewal questions are asked of LH Cargo's management, the old "We'll buy new aircraft, when the MD-11s are profitable" mantra is used.
If it sounds like they're ducking the question to you, well, you're not alone.

LH keeps their old 737s and A300s. I think it makes some sense from the accounting and financial perspective. Those planes are written off and they just make money, without those huge write-offs every year, so they are financially looking better than new A319s or A330s would, even with higher operating costs for fuel and maintenance. In addition, they are hidden reserves in the balance, every 737 and A306 stands there with .51€ (from 1 DM), but is worth a little more than that.

The MD-11 probably do the same thing, so why buy a $200 million+ T7 freighter where they would have to write off $20 million every year? The new company might be a different story, given that MD-11s are rare.

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 69):
capacity-wise, the EMB 195 would certainly be a good replacement for LH's 735s. however, this would mean that those aircraft would be piloted by LH and not LH Regional. it is much cheaper to have CLH or other regionals operate those birds than LH mainline.

Yes, but the 735s are also flying with mainline pilots, aren't they? So it would not be a worse situation than before.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 62):
I suspect the A340-500/600 program has generated a reasonable RoI for Airbus. I also suspect that the marginal cost of developing the A340-500 (perhaps $250-400M), given the A340-600, has also produced a reasonable RoI for Airbus.

I'm not sure about that. The cost for the development of the A340NG was probably around $ 3.5 - 4 bn. Given that they have only 150 or so orders, that would result into R&D overheads of around $25m per plane. Given some indications that they sold them for around $100 m per piece, I don't know where that RoI is supposed to come from.


Quoting ZRH (Reply 74):
I think the order will be much bigger. They will also order for Swiss. LX will have to replace 24 330/340.

But LX is supposed to order new A333s soon, they are not in a hurry to replace their planes. LH generally doesn't go and buy 80 widebodies like QR does, they rather order more often in smaller quantities, like f.e. with the A346, ordering 10, then 7, then another 7.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
LXA340
Posts: 1178
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:19 pm

Quoting ZRH (Reply 74):

I think the order will be much bigger. They will also order for Swiss. LX will have to replace 24 330/340.

I am pretty sure the long haul fleet will continue to grow and by the time both A333's (minimum 10 -15 years before this will happenand) and A343's will be replaced the long haul fleet could've reached a fleet of around 30 aircraft. I agree with what was said, that LH rather orders step by step. I am pretty sure though that the replacment of the 15 A343's of LX will be part of the next big orders as those planes will be replaced simultaniously with the LH A343's starting at around 2015.
 
columba
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:27 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 78):
Yes, but the 735s are also flying with mainline pilots, aren't they? So it would not be a worse situation than before.

But they could try to outsource aircraft in that category to Cityline or other Regional partners and have the smallest mainline aircraft in the size of a 737-300 or A319.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 78):
LH generally doesn't go and buy 80 widebodies like QR does, they rather order more often in smaller quantities, like f.e. with the A346, ordering 10, then 7, then another 7.

Agreed, even with the 747-8I it was 20 + 20, the A380 was 15 + 10 etc.....I think it was the same with the A340-300 which also was around 20 aircraft as their first placed their order.
Nevertheless times has changed and LH is bigger now than it used to be and after they acquired LX they have not placed orders for both airlines. The 747-8I will likely never see the colores of LX -again a shame given the stunning looking Swissair 747-300s - so this order can not be seen as a reference for future orders.
But I agree an order from LH for 80 aircraft is not likely but maybe their order will be between 30-40 aircraft for both airlines.

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
Lufthansa could become a launch customer for a 737 replacement, Buchholz said,

Again back to this statement I find it interesting that Buchholz explicitely spoke of a 737 replacement and not "the next generation narrow short and medium haul aircraft" either from Airbus, Boeing or Bombardier.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Burkhard
Posts: 1916
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:42 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Thread starter):
Does LH use a dedicated set of gates for domestic flights at MUC that would not have the clearance the A330 needs ? Is that what this could be referring to ?

Airports have terminals or parts of terminals for use inside the Schengen treaty, which means most of Europe, without passport / customs control, and international destinations with , while airline to gate association is rare.

The Schengen parking indeed most of the times are narrower, they fit for A320s, 737, 757 and A300, A310, while the intercontinental ones are wider to fit for DC10, B767, A340, or even 744s.

Since the A330 has the same wing span as the A340, they only fit to the international departure, not to the Schengen ones, so it would require a lot of changes at the airports, too many for the replacement of a dozen of aircraft.
 
Thorben
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:05 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 80):
But they could try to outsource aircraft in that category to Cityline or other Regional partners and have the smallest mainline aircraft in the size of a 737-300 or A319.

Yes, but that still doesn't rule out replacing the 735s with E-Jets.

Anyway, I was at TXL yesterday and I would love to see the E-Jets in action there. There will still be enough 737s around.

Quoting Columba (Reply 80):
Agreed, even with the 747-8I it was 20 + 20, the A380 was 15 + 10 etc.....I think it was the same with the A340-300 which also was around 20 aircraft as their first placed their order.

In the long run they have ordered 35 A342/3s and methinks that 15 A388 and 20 747-8i will not be the final on the tally of those types. Also look at their A333 orders. Ten here, then another five later.

Quoting Columba (Reply 80):
Nevertheless times has changed and LH is bigger now than it used to be and after they acquired LX they have not placed orders for both airlines. The 747-8I will likely never see the colores of LX -again a shame given the stunning looking Swissair 747-300s - so this order can not be seen as a reference for future orders.

Sooner or later we'll see the first joint LH/LX order. AF/KL did that recently, too, AF got T7s, KL 737s.

Quoting Columba (Reply 80):
But I agree an order from LH for 80 aircraft is not likely but maybe their order will be between 30-40 aircraft for both airlines.

That is realistic, given that A350 or 787 would have to replace 28 LH A343 and 11 LX A343 plus some expansion.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
globeex
Posts: 265
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:40 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 82):
That is realistic, given that A350 or 787 would have to replace 28 LH A343 and 11 LX A343 plus some expansion.

I personally can't see LX or LH replacing their 343 with 787 unless the 787-1 comes out as the 787-9 is simply to small!

GlobEx
As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
 
columba
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 82):
Yes, but that still doesn't rule out replacing the 735s with E-Jets.
Anyway, I was at TXL yesterday and I would love to see the E-Jets in action there. There will still be enough 737s around.

I don´t really disagree with you, sizewise it would make sense but since Buchholz said they are planning to use the 737 till 2015-2017 I doubt it. But on the other hand they could phase out the -500s and replace them with Emb 190 and continue to fly the -300s which will later be replaced with the 737RSS.
The reason why I don´t believe that is that the -300s are the older ones with the first delivered in 1986 so I think they will be replaced with A319s first.

Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 83):
I personally can't see LX or LH replacing their 343 with 787 unless the 787-1 comes out as the 787-9 is simply to small!

Well VS will replace their A340-300s with 787-9s.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
PADSpot
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:22 am

Quoting Lufthansa Senior VP-Corporate Fleet Nico Buchholz (Thread starter):
Lufthansa could become a launch customer for a 737 replacement, Buchholz said,

I think this statement is a little slippy. It leaves open if he refers to a 737 replacement in the Boeing product line or in the LH fleet. In the LH fleet a 737 could also be an Airbus, for which LH could become a launch customer. This is not meant as a prediction. I just want to point the ambiguity of that statement.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 72):
while the 783 has just a few snags like the wingspan.

Nothing wrong with wing span. Just with its weight, cargo capability and costs, which all together render a 783 business case invalid for LH.

Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 83):
I personally can't see LX or LH replacing their 343 with 787 unless the 787-1 comes out as the 787-9 is simply to small!

Either that or LH/LX have to step back from their low density configurations. But I don't think they are going to build their strategy around a given airplane.
 
Thorben
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 83):
I personally can't see LX or LH replacing their 343 with 787 unless the 787-1 comes out as the 787-9 is simply to small!

Why is it too small? The 789 and the A343 are both 63m long, which makes me think that their cabins have the same length. The 787 can actually seat nine-abreast, so unless its cabin is more than five meters shorter than that of the A343, they can seat the same number of pax.

Quoting Columba (Reply 84):
I don´t really disagree with you, sizewise it would make sense but since Buchholz said they are planning to use the 737 till 2015-2017 I doubt it.

They'll be 30 years ole then, I am not sure whether they'll really use them until 2015-17.

Quoting Columba (Reply 84):
But on the other hand they could phase out the -500s and replace them with Emb 190 and continue to fly the -300s which will later be replaced with the 737RSS.

733s need to go before the 737RS comes out, in my view, because they take too much fuel and maintenance costs will hit the roof at some point.

Quoting Columba (Reply 84):
The reason why I don´t believe that is that the -300s are the older ones with the first delivered in 1986 so I think they will be replaced with A319s first.

This needs to be done, but maybe the 733 has better economics than the 735.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 85):
Nothing wrong with wing span. Just with its weight, cargo capability and costs, which all together render a 783 business case invalid for LH.

The 783 has seven meters more wingspan than the A306, I think that is a problem at some airports.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 78):
Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 69):
capacity-wise, the EMB 195 would certainly be a good replacement for LH's 735s. however, this would mean that those aircraft would be piloted by LH and not LH Regional. it is much cheaper to have CLH or other regionals operate those birds than LH mainline.

Yes, but the 735s are also flying with mainline pilots, aren't they? So it would not be a worse situation than before.

it would be a worse situation than before, as the salaries LH pays continually rise. also, if they weren't trying to improve the economics by giving more aircraft to the cheaper operators, management would be doing something wrong here.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 82):
Yes, but that still doesn't rule out replacing the 735s with E-Jets.

the Embraer jets are intended to be operated by LH Regional partners. the first 737s to be phased out will be replaced by Airbus aircraft.

Quoting Columba (Reply 84):
I don?t really disagree with you, sizewise it would make sense but since Buchholz said they are planning to use the 737 till 2015-2017 I doubt it. But on the other hand they could phase out the -500s and replace them with Emb 190 and continue to fly the -300s which will later be replaced with the 737RSS.

as much as i'm interested in statements of LH officials, we should keep in mind they are not giving away information to just please us. I'd always take such statements with a grain of salt, in terms of corporate strategy they can't give away too precise information as this hurts their relationships or negotiations with manufacturers and gives hints to the competitors. it is way into the future when Buchholz talks about a 2015-17 timeframe, many things can happen till then. as a matter of fact, a number of 737s will leave the LH in the next years. still, of course, the bulk of 737s could operate for many more years to come.
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
globeex
Posts: 265
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:48 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 86):
Why is it too small? The 789 and the A343 are both 63m long, which makes me think that their cabins have the same length. The 787 can actually seat nine-abreast, so unless its cabin is more than five meters shorter than that of the A343, they can seat the same number of pax.



Quoting Columba (Reply 84):
Well VS will replace their A340-300s with 787-9s.

I can't see VS replacing all A343 with 787 and guess, we'll see an additional order of 787-1 or A350 by VS in the next two-three years.
The 787-9 seats around 20-40 passangers less than an A343.

GlobeEx
As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
 
columba
Posts: 5237
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 87):
it is way into the future when Buchholz talks about a 2015-17 timeframe, many things can happen till then. as a matter of fact, a number of 737s will leave the LH in the next years. still, of course, the bulk of 737s could operate for many more years to come.

He said something similar in 2005 :
"Lufthansa is in no hurry to replace its fleet of 60 737-300s/-500s even though the aircraft have an average age of 14 years, Senior VP-Corporate Fleet Nico Buchholz told ATWOnline.

"From a technical perspective, we don't have to talk about a fleet change now," Buchholz said, adding that Lufthansa would prefer to see "what will happen with the A320, which is already on the market for 16 years. . .and what Boeing intends to do with its 737NGs." Lufthansa plans to operate the 737s for at least several more years because successors to the A320 and 737NG are not expected until 2012-15, he said. "But with a big 737 fleet, there is always a fluctuation of aircraft."
http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=903

And already in 2004 they expressed their interest in a 737 successor based on 7E7 technology:

"With both the A320 and 737 in its fleet, Lufthansa wants Boeing to look at a larger-cross-section 737 based on the 7E7 technology. "
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...viationdaily&id=news/luft08314.xml
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
insiderinfo
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:54 am

is it me...or is this guy sounding like a die hard boeing man...?
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:47 am

Quoting Insiderinfo (Reply 91):
is it me...or is this guy sounding like a die hard boeing man...?

I think they just try not to cuddle too much with one supplier. Apart from the B748-order they did most of the business with Airbus over the last years. At the time the first B748i arrives it will be the first Boeing airplane since more than 10 years. Now they push both manufacturers to commit on narrow body successors; Boeing directly and Airbus indirectly.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 86):
The 783 has seven meters more wingspan than the A306, I think that is a problem at some airports.


A minor one, ok. I assume one can still count the bays in which an AB6 fits in and a B783 does not.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:09 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 78):
LH generally doesn't go and buy 80 widebodies like QR does

The actions of QR and EK are unprecedented and it's why some of us doubt their business models. Nobody orders large planes in such numbers all at once, at least as firm orders, not even the world's largest carriers.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Thorben
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:17 pm

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 87):
it would be a worse situation than before, as the salaries LH pays continually rise. also, if they weren't trying to improve the economics by giving more aircraft to the cheaper operators, management would be doing something wrong here.

It would not be worse, because the 735 pilots would also get more money. Management wants to lower wage costs, of course, the question is how far the unions will let them go. Pilots are highly organised employees.

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 87):
the Embraer jets are intended to be operated by LH Regional partners. the first 737s to be phased out will be replaced by Airbus aircraft.

Fine, but they are bigger than what the Regionals currently have.

Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 88):
I can't see VS replacing all A343 with 787 and guess, we'll see an additional order of 787-1 or A350 by VS in the next two-three years.
The 787-9 seats around 20-40 passangers less than an A343.

I think we'll wait how the 787 seat maps will really look like. I doubt they'll have 20-40 less seats than a plane with a smaller cabin.

Quoting Insiderinfo (Reply 90):
is it me...or is this guy sounding like a die hard boeing man...?

I guess that is just you. Buchholz was Airbus product manager from 1989 to 1998.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 91):

A minor one, ok. I assume one can still count the bays in which an AB6 fits in and a B783 does not.

Yes, but at TXL the A306 hardly fits in and at FRA, where place is very rare and will get even rarer with the A380, the problem might indeed exist. And these are two key A306 LH destinations. Not to forget HAM, LHR, and MUC.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 92):
The actions of QR and EK are unprecedented and it's why some of us doubt their business models. Nobody orders large planes in such numbers all at once, at least as firm orders, not even the world's largest carriers.

They have a vision of what they'll do there, and to me it makes sense, we'll just see whether it will be successful. This far EK is profitable, while QR is trying to get there.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
columba
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:28 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 93):
Yes, but at TXL the A306 hardly fits in and at FRA, where place is very rare and will get even rarer with the A380, the problem might indeed exist. And these are two key A306 LH destinations. Not to forget HAM, LHR, and MUC.

I don´t think this is much of a problem. LH does not need a new aircraft for FRA-TXL flights, TXL will be history in 2011.
The A306s last that long. LH can offer more flights from BER, MUC and DUS so the dense situation in FRA can be solved, too by then.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:32 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 94):
I don´t think this is much of a problem. LH does not need a new aircraft for FRA-TXL flights, TXL will be history in 2011.
The A306s last that long.

That is indeed right.

Quoting Columba (Reply 94):
The A306s last that long. LH can offer more flights from BER, MUC and DUS so the dense situation in FRA can be solved, too by then.

Partially, FRA will get more space with their new terminal 0 and the former military parts, but there will be even more planes there when the fourth runway comes. So the wing span issue will stay.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:54 am

So here we have it:

30 A32x

plus
9 A333
2 A320

for Swiss.
http://konzern.lufthansa.com/en/html...en/app/show/en/2007/09/733/HOM&s=0
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
ZRH
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RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:30 pm

For those who can read German, here is an article from the Neue Zürcher Zeitung (Sept 25th 2007, page B 5). Nothing new but interesting nevertheless:

Quote:

Die Lufthansa-Gruppe vor einer Reihe wichtiger Flottenentscheide
Kauf von zwanzig Boeing 747-8 Intercontinental nur der Auftakt - mittelfristig Ersatz auch für die Airbus-Flotten auf der Traktandenliste
Im Jahr 2010 stossen zwanzig «Jumbos» Boeing 747-8 zum Erstbesteller Lufthansa. Zu entscheiden hat der deutsche Konzern mittelfristig aber auch über den Ersatz der Airbus A320, 330 und 340 und über eine möglichst einheitliche Zusammensetzung der Regionalflotten.

Wenn Nico Buchholz zu Besuch kommt, dann bricht beim Flugzeughersteller Boeing Hektik aus. Die Flugzeugverkäufer müssen sich den Abend freischaufeln und zum Empfang antreten. Beim Abendessen in einem schicken Restaurant mitten in Seattle ist dann alles einen Tick edler als üblich, die Tischkärtchen sorgen dafür, dass Buchholz neben die richtigen Nachbarn zu sitzen kommt. Und Boeing lässt auftischen.

Jahrelang getrübtes Verhältnis
Buchholz ist einer der einflussreichsten Einkäufer in der Luftfahrtbranche, schliesslich ist er bei der Lufthansa als oberster Flottenplaner verantwortlich für die Investitionsentscheidungen der Gruppe. Welche Flugzeuge künftig bei Lufthansa, Swiss, Germanwings, Eurowings, Air Dolomiti, Lufthansa Cargo oder Jade Cargo eingesetzt werden - all dies erarbeiten Buchholz und seine Leute bei der Lufthansa-Abteilung Corporate Fleet, wenn es letztlich auch die Aufsichtsräte beschliessen müssen. Auch bei der in der vergangenen Woche verkündeten Grossbestellung für die neuen Airbus A330-300 der Swiss hat Buchholz seine Hand im Spiel gehabt.

Bei Boeing hat sich Buchholz, der einst lange für Airbus gearbeitet hat, zuletzt wieder sehr beliebt gemacht. Jahrelang hatte die Lufthansa keine Flugzeuge mehr bei dem amerikanischen Hersteller bestellt und damit für einige Trübung im Verhältnis zueinander gesorgt. Besonders erzürnte es die Ingenieure bei Boeing, dass die Lufthansa den Airbus A340-600 statt ihrer 777 kaufte, gilt es doch in der Branche mittlerweile als ausgemacht, dass Boeing das bessere Flugzeug anbiete.

Doch nun hat der deutsche Konzern Boeing erheblich aus der Patsche geholfen. Als erste Passagierfluggesellschaft bestellte sie die neue 747 Intercontinental, die erstmals Ende 2010 ausgeliefert werden soll. Bisher hatte Boeing den Nachfolger der 747-400 nur als Frachter offeriert - für Image und künftige Verkaufschancen nicht gerade förderlich.

Geliefert, was Lufthansa forderte
Dass es das Flugzeug überhaupt gibt, dafür haben die Lufthanseaten einiges getan. Immer wieder forderten Buchholz und seine Leute öffentlich eine modernisierte und deutlich verbesserte 747. Im Mai 2002 war der Lufthansa-Chefeinkäufer einmal mehr mit einer Powerpoint-Präsentation in Seattle, in der er zeigte, was die Lufthansa gerne hätte: einen gestreckten Jumbo 747 mit etwa 450 Sitzen, neuen Triebwerken und Tragflächen. Wenn Boeing ein solches Flugzeug baue, dann würde die Lufthansa es wohl auch bestellen. Buchholz hatte sich damit ziemlich weit aus dem Fenster gelehnt, auch deswegen, weil wichtige Konkurrenten eine völlig andere Flottenstrategie pflegen. Air France etwa reduziert die Zahl der 747-400 und wird sie auf absehbare Zeit ganz durch den Airbus A380 und die Boeing 777 ersetzen.

Boeing lieferte, was Lufthansa forderte. Die 747-8 Intercontinental, von der die Fluggesellschaft 20 Einheiten gekauft hat, wird neue Triebwerke erhalten, die General Electric GEnx nämlich, die für die 787 entwickelt wurden. Die Tragfläche ist aerodynamisch wesentlich verändert, die Innenausstattung neu gestaltet und das Cockpit modernisiert worden. Die Stückkosten der neuen 747 liegen gegenüber der alten um rund 16 Prozent niedriger und liegen damit sogar im Bereich des deutlich grösseren Airbus A380. Boeing hofft nun in diesem Jahr noch auf weitere Bestellungen - die nächste grosse Entscheidung wird womöglich noch im September von British Airways erwartet. Ausserdem gelten Emirates, Singapore Airlines und Cathay Pacific als heisse Kandidaten für neue Aufträge. Emirates will allerdings noch mehr Reichweite herausquetschen, damit die 747-8 im Sommer mit voller Nutzlast nonstop von Dubai nach Los Angeles fliegen kann. Derzeit müsste die Intercontinental irgendwo südlich von San Francisco einen Tankstopp einlegen.

«Dreamliner» oder Airbus A350?
Auf Lufthansa-Seite ist mit der 747-Bestellung aber nur eine von vielen Flottenentscheidungen getroffen worden. Drei offene Fragen gibt es laut Buchholz nach wie vor: Lufthansa braucht mittelfristig einen Ersatz für die A330 und A340, irgendwann ist auch ein neues Muster für die Kurz- und Mittelstrecken fällig, das die Airbus- A320-Familie ersetzen wird. Und ausserdem ist eine Entscheidung über eine einheitliche Regionalflotte zu fällen.

Bisher hat sich die Gruppe mit zahlreichen Teilentscheidungen einigermassen über die Zeit gerettet. Sie bestellte zusätzliche A340-600 und A330 für die Langstrecke, weitere A321, A320 und A319 für den Europaverkehr und fuhr im Regionalverkehr mit der CRJ-Familie von Bombardier sowie der Embraer 170/190/195 auf zwei Gleisen.

Voraussichtlich 2008 wird die Lufthansa zwischen dem «Dreamliner» Boeing 787 und dem Airbus A350 wählen; eines der beiden Muster wird mittel- bis langfristig dann auch bei der Swiss eingesetzt. Eigentlich ist die technische Bewertung nahezu abgeschlossen, aber Buchholz will sich mit einer Bestellung noch Zeit lassen. Das hat vor allem kommerzielle Gründe - er hofft auf weitere Preisnachlässe. Vorher sind dann wohl noch einige Besuche in Seattle fällig.

Jens Flottau
 
columba
Posts: 5237
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:27 pm

Quoting ZRH (Reply 97):
For those who can read German, here is an article from the Neue Z�rcher Zeitung (Sept 25th 2007, page B 5). Nothing new but interesting nevertheless:

Thanks, honestly I can think of a split order between Airbus and Boeing.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: Lufthansa VP Talks About Future Fleet

Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:53 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 98):
Thanks, honestly I can think of a split order between Airbus and Boeing.

A split within one fleet-type order or a split between wide- and narrow-body replacements?

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