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kaitak
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Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:00 am

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...ctors/transport/article2456482.ece

Well, you'll never see LHR operators move as fast as this again; "voom ...like a rat out of an aquaduct" ... the merest hint of new slots coming onto the market and the batphones rang in various airline HQs and the chequebooks were opened!

Alitalia, which currently operates 13-14 daily flights (depending on the day of the week) to Heathrow, from MXP, LIN and FCO, wants to sell some of its LHR slots. It doesn't look as if it will be selling all of them, as the LHR-FCO route is probably one of its busiest, along with LHR-LIN. Looking at AZ's schedule, there are lots of flights at prime hours during the day which would probably command about £20-30m per slot. It has some very early departures/very late arrivals too.

I wonder if, now that AZ is in Skyteam and having (apparently), close talks with AF, whether Skyteam carriers, particularly DL and CO, would have a better chance of getting these slots. The three UK carriers - VS, BA and BD - are obviously going to be sweet-talking AZ, but I suspect the US carriers will do best. Time will tell, I guess and it wouldn't surprise me if EK or one of the big ME carriers were to buy some more.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:01 am

AZ has already been in discussions w/ the US Skyteam members about selling its LHR slos.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:03 am

American Airlines will be very interested.
a.
 
dl767captain
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:04 am

Maybe DL can get some slots at a good price
 
commavia
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:17 am

And, yet again, we see how high people are willing to go. No doubt, there are going to be a dozen or more airlines lining up to get their hands on these slot pairs.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
American Airlines will be very interested.

Indeed.

Isn't AA still in the market for two more slots - 1x MIA and 1x DFW? Or is there more they want?
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:33 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 4):
And, yet again, we see how high people are willing to go. No doubt, there are going to be a dozen or more airlines lining up to get their hands on these slot pairs.

there is no doubt that the slots will go to the highest bidder. But there are alot of other factors that can go into asset sales, including supporting AZ in the future. Given that DL feeds alot of traffic to/from AZ and vv and AF is still reported to be one of the potential buyout partners for AZ, it is very possible that Skyteam will have an advantage in these slot swaps. Remember, AZ is entertaining slot sales because its finances are in such bad shape. Selling slots without having a plan to turn AZ around or using those asset sales in the turnaround process would be tantamount to just delaying AZ's eventual demise by just another month or two.

Remember that AF and KL are selling slots to its Skyteam partners because there is a need to deepen their relationships, some of which the US carriers will not do without some help from the their European partners. The same principle applies here.
 
OHLHD
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:36 am

Could there be an airline that is not interested?
 
CVG777
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:39 am

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 6):
Could there be an airline that is not interested?

Cape Air.  Smile



I would like to see Delta get them though, if possible.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:47 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
there is no doubt that the slots will go to the highest bidder. But there are alot of other factors that can go into asset sales, including supporting AZ in the future. Given that DL feeds alot of traffic to/from AZ and vv and AF is still reported to be one of the potential buyout partners for AZ, it is very possible that Skyteam will have an advantage in these slot swaps. Remember, AZ is entertaining slot sales because its finances are in such bad shape. Selling slots without having a plan to turn AZ around or using those asset sales in the turnaround process would be tantamount to just delaying AZ's eventual demise by just another month or two.

SkyTeam partners will most likely have the benefit to the point that I would bet Alitalia would be willing to sell the slots to a SkyTeam partner, even if a non-SkyTeam airline bids more, though obviously only to a certain point.
a.
 
nycfly75
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:50 am

These would be some MXP slots for sale.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:53 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):

there is no doubt that the slots will go to the highest bidder. But there are alot of other factors that can go into asset sales, including supporting AZ in the future. Given that DL feeds alot of traffic to/from AZ and vv and AF is still reported to be one of the potential buyout partners for AZ, it is very possible that Skyteam will have an advantage in these slot swaps.

Very well said. Due to AZ dire need for cash, these must go to the highest bidder. But "highest bid' isn't necessarily the largest cash offer. Obviously EK will make a bid. It will be very interesting to see who gets the slots.

Man does LHR need that 3rd runway! Build it now!  hissyfit  Sigh... there is a reason they don't let me make those decisions.  Sad

Lightsaber
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commavia
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:54 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
But there are alot of other factors that can go into asset sales, including supporting AZ in the future. Given that DL feeds alot of traffic to/from AZ and vv and AF is still reported to be one of the potential buyout partners for AZ, it is very possible that Skyteam will have an advantage in these slot swaps.

While it remains to be seen, I doubt that Alitalia will be so stupid as to give away what are now some of its most valuable assets (read: Heathrow slots) to one of their SkyTeam partners merely because they are SkyTeam partners. That would just be absolutely idiotic and a complete waste for a company that is so desperate for cash right now - but, then again, "absolutely idiotic" and a "complete waste" describe about 75% of the decisions made by Alitalia in the last decade, so you never know.

If Alitalia is smart, they will auction these off to the highest bidder and not settle for one penny less than that, as they know what they have, and they know everyone wants it, and it doesn't matter which airline it is as long as they're willing to fork it over.

The Air France-Delta and KLM-Northwest cases with the Heathrow slots is a completely different situation: both those airline alliances are not only antitrust immunized, but are governed (or soon will be governed) by Trans-Atlantic revenue-sharing agreements that basically split all revenues U.S.-Europe 50/50. In that case, it clearly is in AF's interests, for example, to give Delta as many slots as possible, because not only will they get some cash up front, but they will get 50% residual revenue on every dollar Delta earns on each of its Heathrow-U.S. flights. The same cannot be said for Alitalia, the red-headed stepchild of the European aviation (and alliance) world, which has no Trans-Atlantic revenue-splitting deal, and thus has to get as much cash out of these slots as it possibly can. (After all, something has to pay for the memos to the Italian government asking for more money!)
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:02 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 11):
While it remains to be seen, I doubt that Alitalia will be so stupid as to give away what are now some of its most valuable assets (read: Heathrow slots) to one of their SkyTeam partners merely because they are SkyTeam partners.

read the posts above yours.... they get it.
 
UnitedFirst
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:09 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 11):
While it remains to be seen, I doubt that Alitalia will be so stupid as to give away what are now some of its most valuable assets (read: Heathrow slots) to one of their SkyTeam partners merely because they are SkyTeam partners.

It certainly won't just give them away – however, it seems that they might give their US SkyTeam members the first right of refusal to buy them.

Obviously, Heathrow is a lucrative market to be part of. However, I think its 'guaranteed profitability' is overblown by many members here. It seems that many airlines (especially the old-guard Euro legacies) that have been sitting on an enormous number of LHR slots for operations that TRULY demand only a few flights a day are realizing that these slots can be a great way to pocket a large pile of cash. It's certainly preferable to running too many LHR flights everyday simply for the prestige.

Furthermore, alliances are making shrewd moves in an effort to maximize LHR slots.

As far as an AZ-DL/CO/NW LHR slot deal goes, I imagine it's within the realm of possibility that, beyond the slot sale, some of the future potential profits of SkyTeam-operated USA-LHR flights (that this deal could potentially support) could be shared.
 
avek00
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:18 pm

I wouldn;t be surprised if CO makes a go for some of AZ's slots, in order to avoid having to enter into any revenue-sharing arrangements with AF or KLM.
Live life to the fullest.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:21 pm

Quoting UnitedFirst (Reply 13):
As far as an AZ-DL/CO/NW LHR slot deal goes, I imagine it's within the realm of possibility that, beyond the slot sale, some of the future potential profits of SkyTeam-operated USA-LHR flights (that this deal could potentially support) could be shared.

Not only within the realm of possibility but that's exactly the basis of AF and DL's joint venture. AF wanted the JV but DL said they would only agree to it if AF helped DL get into LHR, so say reports. KL and NW already have a JV on their entire transatlantic systems. It is in AF/KL's interest to make sure the alliance is well represented at LHR and they know that their US partners will do a better job of cracking into the market than the continental Europe partners can.

Again, AF does have influence over AZ given their ability to help make or break AZ and keep it as close to its present network carrier self as possible. Other potential acquirers are not as likely to do that.
 
zvezda
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Prior to the bidding, AZ would assign a dollar value offset to each bidder representing the non-cash value to AZ. For example, DL might promise to put an AZ code on transatlantic flight out of LHR. That would be worth millions per slot to AZ. Air One, on the other hand, would be a direct competitor and would be a assigned a negative offset. The winner would be the airline with the highest cash bid after adjusting for the offset.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:27 pm

I feel like DL and CO have got these slots to lose.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
ENCRJ
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 9:32 pm

DL will get the slots and buy a couple of 380s to do LHR-ATL.  cool 

Just dreaming...
 
VictorKilo
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:23 pm

Alitalia arrival slots at LHR (and originating airport):

0845 LIN
0935 FCO
1100 MXP
1125 FCO
1520 FCO
1545 MXP
1650 LIN
1800 LIN
1855 FCO
1905 LIN
2040 LIN
2140 MXP
2305 FCO

Alitalia departure slots at LHR (and destination airport):
0600 MXP
0650 FCO
0735 LIN
0935 FCO
1025 MXP
1205 FCO
1215 LIN
1623 MXP
1635 FOC
1740 LIN
1850 LIN
2000 LIN
2005 FCO

Only the first four arrival slots would have value from US Carriers. (Maybe a 2100 departure from LAX could use the 1520 slot, but that would be it). EK could use any slots during the day except for the last three arrivals at LHR, as they correspond with RON aircraft with early departure slots and could not be used for overnight flights into DXB.

Question: if AZ's slots into LHR in the early morning are more valuable than the revenue they generate on flights from Italy, is AZ's operation at LHR sustainable, or should they transfer it to LGW, STN, or another airport and just sell all of their LHR slots?
 
bennett123
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:34 pm

Is there any information available about AZ loads/yields into LHR.

David
 
commavia
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:42 pm

Question: are slots at Heathrow specifically tied to an arrival or a departure per se? The reason I ask is that the comprehensive slot slit provided by Victor offers some interesting questions:

As he says, "arrival" slots after about noon would probably be useless to anything except perhaps for late-night eastbound departures from Europe, which is to say they'd be useless to any U.S. carrier save maybe AA if they decided to re-time their second LAX-LHR flight and push back its departure by about 60 mins. Similarly, some of Alitalia's "departure" slots are completely useless for what they are now being used for. For example: an 0600 "departure" slot from LHR would be virtually useless to a U.S. carrier, as they probably aren't going to want to be scheduling flights at that time, however, it would be absolutely ideal for an "arrival" slot.

Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 19):
Question: if AZ's slots into LHR in the early morning are more valuable than the revenue they generate on flights from Italy, is AZ's operation at LHR sustainable, or should they transfer it to LGW, STN, or another airport and just sell all of their LHR slots?

This all also raises another question, though, which is: what will Alitalia's post-slot sale Heathrow schedule look like? Obviously, they aren't going to cut out the market completely - as it is still, completely operational chaos that it is, by far the single most important business travel market in Europe and definitely the most important Trans-Atlantic gateway in Europe. Even if they only slimmed their schedule down to Rome, and dropped all Milan flying (which I doubt), I'd imagine they're still going to need at least 1-2, or maybe even 3, early morning departure slots at Heathrow. Based on the schedule above, that severely limits the number of viable slot pairs they could potentially sell to U.S. carriers down to, by my count, no more than 3 or maybe 4 or 5 at the absolute max, depending on how they are used.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:07 am

AZ could restructure its LHR operations to stay out of the mid-morning/early afternoon period so that it could sell slots which are for specific time periods. I doubt if pulling out of LHR is an option because that is not what is being proposed.... but it may also be true that selling all of AZ's slots makes enough sense in terms of the money they can raise. While transatlantic oeprations have a specific time period they need slots for, operations to other parts of the world need different times. AZ might find other options to serve LON besides LHR. All of these questions have to be asked as part of AZ's restructuring. The problem is that if AZ answers the questions in such way so that they sell access to LHR, there is no going back. Pan Am and TWA probably wished they had only leased out their access to LHR instead of selling it.
 
amirs
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:13 am

Israel and UK just signed an agreement to allow two carriers from each country to get designators status. I wonder if Israir or Arkia have the money to buy these slots.

I also read in the paper that LY was going to try to get more LHR slots during the talks before the signing of the agreement.
 
commavia
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:19 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 22):
AZ could restructure its LHR operations to stay out of the mid-morning/early afternoon period so that it could sell slots which are for specific time periods.

I don't think AZ can completely cut out is Heathrow operation before noon. They could probably go down to only a single flight, but there is no way they can have any sort of viable presence in the Heathrow (London) market without at least one flight arriving and departing in the morning. The interline connections from places all over North America and Asia arriving before 8am, to say nothing of the huge amount of business-centric local O&D demand that requires an early-morning option, make it impossible - at least in my mind - to fly to London from a European capital without at least one mornin flight. And there is absolutely no way they could split the operation between Heathrow and Gatwick profitably - especially if, hypothetically, Gatwick were only to get the morning departure. There's just no way, if you ask me.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 22):
The problem is that if AZ answers the questions in such way so that they sell access to LHR, there is no going back.

Indeed, 100% correct. Once AZ sells these LHR slots - particularly the peak-period mid-morning ones - there will be no going back, at least until Heathrow gets a 3rd runway which, at this particular point in time, looks to be scheduled for about 5 minutes before hell freezes over.
 
shuggie
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:28 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 10):
But "highest bid' isn't necessarily the largest cash offer.

I couldn't agree more. The money AZ will get for the sale of these slots will undoubtedly be useful and the cash savings that they will make by streamlining their LHR operation will also be beneficial but it's not a one stop solution. If AZ is ever going to recover (and I am yet to be convinced) one of the things that they need to do is to build strong working relationships with other airlines and what better way to woo them than with some slots at one of the worlds most overcrowded and sort after airports....

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 14):
I wouldn;t be surprised if CO makes a go for some of AZ's slots, in order to avoid having to enter into any revenue-sharing arrangements with AF or KLM.

Have CO managed to secure any LHR slots yet? I know that DL and NW have and of course AA and UA have plenty, whatabout US?
 
hamster
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:33 am

Does the airport have to approve? What paperwork represents a slot?
 
kaitak
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting Shuggie (Reply 25):
Have CO managed to secure any LHR slots yet? I know that DL and NW have and of course AA and UA have plenty, whatabout US?

I don't know how many slots CO has obtained at LHR, but I know that it has leased a pair from Aer Lingus. I'm sure it would like to get some more.

DL is apparently going to buy/lease some from AF.

Haven't heard anything about US Airways.
 
oakjam
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:40 am

Could this be a way for Aeromexico to enter LHR? Can AM find a way to buy a slot?
 
EddieDude
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:20 am

Quoting Oakjam (Reply 28):
Could this be a way for Aeromexico to enter LHR? Can AM find a way to buy a slot?

I was wondering the exact same thing. AM has always wanted LHR slots and so far has gotten nothing. This is a golden opportunity. Sadly, I think it is not likely that AM will get LHR slots at the moment. The company is immersed in its own sale process and, until the same is concluded, I do not see AM making any major investments.
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flymd
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sun Sep 16, 2007 10:06 am

I guess that you do what you have to do if you are broke, but for a few US carriers selling their LHR slots seemed to be the kiss if death if not at least the begining of the end. Best of luck to AZ.
Fly the friendly skies of life!. Enjoy every minute.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:15 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 29):
I was wondering the exact same thing. AM has always wanted LHR slots and so far has gotten nothing. This is a golden opportunity.

How the heck could AM outbid the other airlines that want these slots?!?

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 22):
AZ could restructure its LHR operations to stay out of the mid-morning/early afternoon period so that it could sell slots which are for specific time periods. I doubt if pulling out of LHR is an option because that is not what is being proposed....

I think that has been what everyone was discussing. Selling some slots, not all of them.

This will be a curious ending.  Smile

Lightsaber
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shuggie
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:19 pm

Quoting FlyMD (Reply 30):
I guess that you do what you have to do if you are broke, but for a few US carriers selling their LHR slots seemed to be the kiss if death if not at least the begining of the end. Best of luck to AZ.

I think selling the whole lot like Pan Am did would certainly be a bad move. Selling some may prove out to be okay though.
 
Humberside
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:05 pm

Quoting VictorKilo (Reply 19):
or should they transfer it to LGW, STN, or another airport and just sell all of their LHR slots?

Those airports are full at peak times too
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bobnwa
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:51 pm

Quoting Shuggie (Reply 25):
Have CO managed to secure any LHR slots yet? I know that DL and NW have and of course AA and UA have plenty, whatabout US?

DL and NWA have never announced that they have slots at LHR. I'm sure they will get them, but at this time I don'y think they have them. They cannot be used until next year so there is no hurry to finalize the deal.
 
toltommy
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 34):
DL and NWA have never announced that they have slots at LHR. I'm sure they will get them, but at this time I don'y think they have them.

Even if they do, there's no need to announce it until they can start selling tickets. Make your competitors think you don't have slots, so they'll overbid to keep them away from you.
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BCALBOY
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:10 am

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 35):
Even if they do, there's no need to announce it until they can start selling tickets. Make your competitors think you don't have slots, so they'll overbid to keep them away from you.

They could sell tickets now , if they published the schedules.

BA have been selling LHR/IAH non-stop for S08 for several months and both BA and AA have been selling LHR/DFW
for several months.

IF DL/CO/US/NW had secured slots , the flights would be on sale right now .
 
baw716
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:19 am

I would imagine that between AF/DL, they will make certain that a SkyTeam carrier gets the slots (prob DL), since this would give them the access to LHR that they will need. As for gate access, well that is another matter entirely. However, since we are talking about slots and not gates...let's see how this plays out.

Smart move for AZ, since they are pulling down the MXP operation in favor of FCO and I can't imagine them adding additional flying for the LHR-FCO route, hence selling the slots so it can provide access for one of its SkyTeam partners makes great sense. Hopefully, they have the capital to make it go, because it will not go cheap.

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
EddieDude
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:39 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 31):
How the heck could AM outbid the other airlines that want these slots?!?

They can't and they won't. Perhaps you failed to read the final sentences of my post:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 29):
Sadly, I think it is not likely that AM will get LHR slots at the moment. The company is immersed in its own sale process and, until the same is concluded, I do not see AM making any major investments.
Upcoming flights:
April/May: AM MEX-SCL 788 (J), AM EZE-MEX 789 (J).
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:30 am

Do you think QF might jump in? They're cash rich and bought some slots a couple of years ago to expand in Heathrow.
I do enjoy a spot of flying, especially when it's not in economy!
 
baw716
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 39):
Do you think QF might jump in? They're cash rich and bought some slots a couple of years ago to expand in Heathrow.

No, I believe AF will make certain that DL gets the slot. AF will recover the investment in code sharing revenue. Imagine, DL at LHR, feeding AF, DL, OK, KL...that would make DL from JFK and ATL to LHR a winner from the word GO!

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:23 am

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 40):
DL at LHR, feeding AF, DL, OK, KL

Where is the advantage for AF in getting feed at LHR from DL ? AF only fly to Paris from LHR. AF have direct flights to Paris from DL hubs already, and DL flies to Paris already. Nobody in their right mind is going to connect from the US via LHR to get to Paris. Similar for KL.
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fun2fly
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RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:07 am

How many slots to the US carriers need/want?

DL - ATL, JFK = 4? No CVG -stay LGW
CO - EWR 2, IAH 1-2 = 3-4? No CLE - stay LGW
US?
AA ?
NW?
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4514
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:20 am

Quoting BCALBOY (Reply 36):
They could sell tickets now , if they published the schedules.

BA have been selling LHR/IAH non-stop for S08 for several months and both BA and AA have been selling LHR/DFW
for several months.

IF DL/CO/US/NW had secured slots , the flights would be on sale right now .

AA and BA have the rights to fly to LHR now so they can sell the new service. CO,NW,DL, and US do not have rights to fly to LHR now so they can't sell new service to LHR until they have both the rights and slots. They will have the rights in 2008 as well as the slots.
 
777gk
Posts: 1488
Joined: Mon Jun 19, 2000 3:04 am

RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:29 am

The first 1-2 pairs of slots (arrival/departure) that CO picks up will be dedicated to IAH-LHR flights with 777 equipment. CO will need at least 2 additional pairs, perhaps even 3-4, before it can launch a competitive EWR service, so the timetable for that is a ways down the road.

From what I understand, CO has secured enough cash to ensure that it can win a bidding war with other US carriers for any slots that may come available. If AZ is looking to unload, CO has got to be a favorite to get their hands on some of them.
 
vv701
Posts: 5895
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:51 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 21):
Question: are slots at Heathrow specifically tied to an arrival or a departure per se?

Yes. Paragraph 14 of the British Government Statutory Instrument No 2665 which became law on 1 January this year reads:

"An air carrier operating at a co-ordinated airport [i.e. LHR, LGW, MAN or STN] shall not repeatedly and intentionally:

"(a) operate air services at times different from the allocated slots: or

"(b) use slots in a significantly different way from that indicated at the time of allocation . . ."

The full document can be found on the web site of Airport Coordination Ltd who are charged with the allocation of slots at "co-ordinated airports" and monitoring their use:

http://80.168.119.219/UserFiles/File...Slot%20Sanctions%20Regulations.pdf

Quoting Amirs (Reply 23):
I wonder if Israir or Arkia have the money to buy these slots.

Airport Co-ordination Ltd are charged with allocating a minimum of 50 per cent of slots that they allocate (through the creation of new slots and the re-distribution of surrendered or confiscated slots) to "new" operators. (Such slots are allocated without charge.) For the purpose of such allocations "new operators" are defined as operators with "four or fewer slots". The regulation does not give the definition of a "slot" - that is whether it is a single air traffic movement or a slot pair - but the use of the term "slot" elsewhere in the regulations more than strongly suggests it means a single air traffic movement and not a slot pair.

No doubt the above comments will result in a general cry that there are no slots to allocate at LHR. However the statistics (as discussed in the current thread "Allocated LHR Slots Up By 37 This Winter") show that there will be 37 more air traffic movements each week at LHR in the up coming winter timetable that there were in the 2006-07 winter timetable. For such an increase to occur these 37 slots will have been allocated without charge.

Of course the figure "37" raises the question as to how you can have an odd number of slots. The only explanation I can give is that a slot pair with an arrival on Sunday and a departure on Monday is amongst the new slots.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26606
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:04 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 43):

AA and BA have the rights to fly to LHR now so they can sell the new service. CO,NW,DL, and US do not have rights to fly to LHR now so they can't sell new service to LHR until they have both the rights and slots. They will have the rights in 2008 as well as the slots.

Incorrect. DL, CO, NW, and US don't have the rights to fly to Heathrow until the end of March 2008. They have the rights to sell tickets on Heathrow flights already, but don't have slots.
a.
 
baw716
Posts: 1463
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02 pm

RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:19 pm

It's called 'code sharing' revenue. Anytime a carrier gets their code put on a connection, even it is one that is via a third point, they get revenue from anything booked across that city pair. In 95% of the cases, the revenue gained outweighs the GDS cost of the code share arrangement.

That is why AF and others would be interested in code sharing, and why DL would want to have it; as they get revenue from the carrying the passengers on the long haul part of the booking performed on the other airline's code.

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
Boeing777/747
Posts: 543
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2001 6:07 am

RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:15 pm

Alitalia selling slots? It's like selling your houses and hotels on the Monopoly board to avoid bankruptcy. A panic but inavoidable move. I guess Aliatalia will vanish soon off the market, same situation like Sabena and Swissair.
 
panamair
Posts: 4433
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: Alitalia Selling LHR Slots ...

Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:41 pm

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 47):
That is why AF and others would be interested in code sharing, and why DL would want to have it; as they get revenue from the carrying the passengers on the long haul part of the booking performed on the other airline's code.

Actually any DL-AF codesharing on LHR-USA services starting March 30, 2008, will be even better than traditional codeshares because it will be included in the first phase of the DL-AF Joint Venture where everything will be split 50-50 between the two.

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