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tdscanuck
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:26 am

Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 24):
SEA-CPH is one of the more profitable longhaul routes for SAS.

Not surprising. It's a favorite for SEA-Europe flights since the BA flight to LHR is ferociously expensive (SAS is 33-50% of the price of the BA flight).

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 32):
In addition, Boeing, while still important to the Seattle area, is based in Chicago.

Yes, but there are only about 1,000 people there and no facilities other than an office. There are something like 55,000 Boeing people in Seattle with huge facilities all over the place.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 33):
Before you say that Boeing does the bulk of their manufacturing in the Seattle area, I don't believe Microsoft does the bulk of their manufacturing in the area, so it evens out your claims.

That's true, but Microsoft isn't a manufacturing company. The bulk of their workforce is here and a lot of their core business (coding) is done here.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 34):
It would be interesting to see a breakdown of the places from which Boeing's corporate travel (and the travel done commercially particularly) originates.

It should be about 50%+ from Seattle. Only the very highest executives get the corporate jets so it's almost all commercial travel and the vast bulk of the commercial workforce is in Seattle. Defense is more spread out and has a little bit more people but they also don't fly as much (much less international business).

Tom.
 
doug_or
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:37 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 27):
This only seems to be an issue on a.net. In the "real world", Portland is the hippest place on the planet.

headline in Willy Week when Ikea announced the Portland store a few years ago:


No more reasons to drive to Seattle
Sweedish particle board store negates last remaing reason to visit our northern neighbors.

(or something to that effect)

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 40):

Thanks, very informative post, particularly RE: alliance cooperation

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 50):
Yes, but there are only about 1,000 people there and no facilities other than an office. There are something like 55,000 Boeing people in Seattle with huge facilities all over the place.

How many riveters visit clients?
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
kwbl
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:02 am

Just a clarification-LH no longer receives any subsidy from the Port of Portland. Their presence and performance in the market is solely based on how they are doing (approx 94% LF for the summer) and they are doing fine.
 
Scotland1979
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:08 am

Do not forget. LH has both Boeing and Airbus. Maybe LH is uncomfortable to send Airbus A330 or 340 to SEA because of Boeing plant near SEA. lol! Just kidding...  box 
Jesus said "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" - John 14:6
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:32 am

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 50):
Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 24):
SEA-CPH is one of the more profitable longhaul routes for SAS.

Not surprising. It's a favorite for SEA-Europe flights since the BA flight to LHR is ferociously expensive (SAS is 33-50% of the price of the BA flight).

But if SK has to charge 33% to 50% less than BA, their SEA service is obviously much less profitable than BA's, and I'm sure BA carries a higher proportion of high-yield business traffic, also at higher fares than SK. I doubt there's a significant difference in SK's and BA's load factor.

[Edited 2007-09-20 02:33:06]
 
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Stitch
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 9:36 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 54):
I doubt there's a significant difference in SK's and BA's load factor.

BA's current total load factor is much higher and will soon be increasing with the additional frequency announced today.

SK flies a single daily A343 year-round where BA is (was) a 1x744 and 1x772 in the high season and a 1x744 in the low season. So BA fills many more seats then SK does on a daily basis out of SEA, but then BA benefits from the AS feeder traffic, no doubt, since AS serves as the unofficial OneWorld partner for WA/OR/ID/MT.

[Edited 2007-09-20 02:36:42]
 
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KPDX
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:38 am

Ahhh...the classic PDX vs. SEA members fight. 

Lets keep it down guys.  

[Edited 2007-09-20 03:38:53]
 
B752OS
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:39 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 40):
(roughly comparable to MSP, PHX, BOS, SAN, give or take 1M people)

Metropolitan Boston is quite larger than Seattle is.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 40):
Not to mention there is a good amount of O&D between SEA and FRA (for instance, T-Mobile's US headquarters are in SEA, in addition to the other ties with Microsoft, Boeing, etc.).

Allianz has their North American Headquarters in Minneapolis, do you see LH flying to Minneapolis?
 
N174UA
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:35 pm

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 2):
SEA already has AMS, LHR, and CPH



Quoting Ctbarnes (Reply 31):
with BA's apparent plans to increase capacity on the SEA-LHR route



Quoting Mutu (Reply 38):
BA today announcing an increase in weekly freuencies from 10 to 13 SEA/LHR,

http://seattle.bizjournals.com/seatt...007/09/17/daily21.html?jst=b_ln_hl

Reading between the lines, it's interesting that BA wouldn't consider taking a chance by putting that airplane from the DTW route into PDX to try to take away from LH. BA knows they have a sure thing in SEA, and that LH would be a very tough competitor in PDX.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 45):
an LH SEA-FRA service would be more likely to draw traffic away from UA, who operates UA917 as a "through" flight via IAD, plus has connections via ORD and SFO (and now, LAX) then it would from SK.

For the record, UA 916 that operates SEA-IAD-FRA. #917 is FRA-IAD-SEA.

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 51):
headline in Willy Week when Ikea announced the Portland store a few years ago:

No more reasons to drive to Seattle
Sweedish particle board store negates last remaing reason to visit our northern neighbors.

OMG...LOL! That new IKEA store is open, and is right by I-205, on the PDX side of the freeway.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:52 pm

Quoting N174UA (Reply 58):

Reading between the lines, it's interesting that BA wouldn't consider taking a chance by putting that airplane from the DTW route into PDX to try to take away from LH. BA knows they have a sure thing in SEA, and that LH would be a very tough competitor in PDX.

Well Nike, DaimlerChrysler, and others give British Airways a nice, hefty corporate travel contract that ensures profitability? I doubt it.

Quoting B752OS (Reply 57):
Quoting RwSEA (Reply 40):
(roughly comparable to MSP, PHX, BOS, SAN, give or take 1M people)

Metropolitan Boston is quite larger than Seattle is.

It's roughly within his estimates. Metro Seattle is about 3.3M, metro Boston is around 4.4M.
a.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:55 pm

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 51):
Swedish particle board store

 rotfl  They used to actually sell wood products from time to time, a long time ago...

Quoting B752OS (Reply 57):
Metropolitan Boston is quite larger than Seattle is.

As always when the Northeast is involved, that depends on a rather arbitrary definition of "metropolitan area." With Seattle, the picture is clearer, since the metro area is surrounded on one side by water, on one side by mountains, and on two sides by rural territory. Especially given how much slower ground transport is in eastern Mass than in western Washington, I think you could make a case that Boston really doesn't have influence over everything in its MSA.

On the other side of the coin, you could argue that everything from northern Virginia to southern NH is in New York's metropolitan area...  Wow!  boggled   Wink
 
baw716
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:23 pm

LH does not fly to Seattle because:
a) They operate PDX and YVR. This reduces the opportunity for them to pull traffic from other areas over Seattle.
b) It would hurt SAS, which is one of their key alliance partners, although I've seen alliance partners operate routes that would seem to be in competition but in reality are additional lift for the alliance. IF this were the view of LH/SK (who do have anti-trust immunity as part of the UA/LH/SK original Star Alliance anti trust group), then if the flights were properly timed and rationalized, then LH could operate here.
c) There may be some damage done to the YVR service. Traditionally, fares ex the USA are lower than ex Canada to Europe and since SEA is only about three hours from YVR (airport to airport), there may be enough people to come down and take the trip from here. That said, the business market would not abandon the nonstop and that is the reason why I believe they could pull off operating from all three cities.
d) PDX could suffer as well, since the SEA flight would pull from its revenue base; although United and United Express don't have a large presence here. If this is the case and the PDX flight is not overly dependent upon connecting traffic to fill the plane, this may not be a big problem.

There have been rumors about LH coming to Seattle. I have not been able to find anyone in the industry who can validate this rumor, so it remains that...a rumor. Let's see what develops unless someone on this forum in Germany knows someone in the bowels of LH that can give this rumor some teeth.

cheers,
baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
matt
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:42 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
I've seen statistics in the past indicating that a significantly higher percentage of Canadians make longhaul international trips than Americans.

I don't have those figures, but I do know that the percentage of Canadians with passports (41 %) is higher than that of Americans with passports (27 %). However, ince the USA's population is much, much higher than Canada's, there are still more Americans with passports than there are Canadians with passports.

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/18/wa...9&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo&emc=rss

I'm still looking for figures relating to the percentage of Canadians and Americans traveling abroad.
Next flights: YQM-YUL-YVR-YUL-YQM / YQM-YYZ-HKG-DXB-BCN-YUL-YQM
 
mutu
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:49 pm

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 61):
c) There may be some damage done to the YVR service. Traditionally, fares ex the USA are lower than ex Canada to Europe and since SEA is only about three hours from YVR (airport to airport), there may be enough people to come down and take the trip from here. That said, the business market would not abandon the nonstop and that is the reason why I believe they could pull off operating from all three cities.

yes yes. BA has announced its increased capacity to SEA and also flies daily/double daily YVR depending on the day of the week. This increased YVR capacity was 2005 i think. So either YVR will go back to just daily once SEA goes to 13 weekly, or both increases will stick which suggests there is money to be made at both
 
B752OS
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:52 am

Quoting Mutu (Reply 63):
yes yes. BA has announced its increased capacity to SEA and also flies daily/double daily YVR depending on the day of the week. This increased YVR capacity was 2005 i think. So either YVR will go back to just daily once SEA goes to 13 weekly, or both increases will stick which suggests there is money to be made at both

It's not an increase in capacity, just an increase in frequency. For the better part of the year, SEA was just 1 x daily - 744 and during the Summer, 10 x weekly, the 3 extra flights done by 772s. Now BA will fly 13 x weekly LHR-SEA flights. There has been no indication in these forums that BA will cut frequencies on their profitable LHR-YVR run.
 
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gunsontheroof
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 51):
headline in Willy Week when Ikea announced the Portland store a few years ago:

No more reasons to drive to Seattle
Sweedish particle board store negates last remaing reason to visit our northern neighbors.

(or something to that effect)

Pretty much what I've come to expect from Portland. Tell anyone you're from Seattle and they'll shower you with the reasons why "Portland is so much better."

Funny headline though!

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 43):
For what's it worth, though, when Northwest announce Bangalore service, which was canceled before it started, the routing was planned to be Seattle-Amsterdam-Bangalore.

There were some extenuating circumstances surrounding that cancellation if I recall correctly. Someone else may be able to shed light on that...

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 32):
In addition, Boeing, while still important to the Seattle area, is based in Chicago.

Completely unimportant. The loss of Boeing HQ to Chicago was largely a symbolic blow--Boeing is still very much a Seattle company. As was already pointed out, there are dozens of times more employees here than in Chicago, and for that matter, I read more Boeing press releases with "SEATTLE" headers than anywhere else.
Picked a hell of a week to quit sniffing glue.
 
flysherwood
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:47 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 32):
In addition, Boeing, while still important to the Seattle area, is based in Chicago.

The only thing Boeing has in Chicago is its headquarters. Everything else, and I mean everything else is still around the Puget Sound. You are kidding yourself if you choose to downgrade the role Seattle plays on the West Coast in terms of economic importance. Do you realize how important both Boeing and Microsoft are to the WORLD economy?!?!?!? By the way I am from Portland and am not a huge fan of Seattle. Yes, Vancouver is extremely important to Canada but in terms of economic scales, it doesn't hold a candle to Seattle.  Wink
 
flysherwood
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 33):
Interesting you should mention those 2 as Boeing's headquarters are located in Chicago. Before you say that Boeing does the bulk of their manufacturing in the Seattle area, I don't believe Microsoft does the bulk of their manufacturing in the area, so it evens out your claims. Port of Vancouver is Canada's largest, don't underestimate that fact.

What do you call the Port of Tacoma / Seattle? A fishing wharf?

I think I know a little about this, I ship 10 - 15 containers a week out of that Port.  Wink
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:02 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 66):
Do you realize how important both Boeing and Microsoft are to the WORLD economy?!?!?!? By the way I am from Portland and am not a huge fan of Seattle. Yes, Vancouver is extremely important to Canada but in terms of economic scales, it doesn't hold a candle to Seattle. Wink

Do you realize that that has nothing to do with my point? The only thing I said is that Vancouver plays a much bigger role in Canada's economy than Seattle does in the United States' economy. That is a fact that cannot be debated, and goes far into telling why Vancouver is much better served internationally.
a.
 
flysherwood
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:07 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 68):
The only thing I said is that Vancouver plays a much bigger role in Canada's economy than Seattle does in the United States' economy.

What percentage of the computers in the USA use Microsoft as their operating system? What percentage of the aircraft flying in and around the USA are built by Boeing? You seem to want to IGNORE just how important the Seattle area is to the economy of the United States.  Yeah sure
 
[email protected]
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:07 am

Quite a few large corporations are based (headquartered) in SEA or close to SEA (Bellevue, Kirkland, Redmond...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_based_in_Seattle

Some worth mentioning beside Boeing (I know it's now based in Chicago) and Microsoft:

Amazon.com
Nordstrom
Safeco
Starbucks
Washington Mutual
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue." Steven McCroskey, Airplane!
 
eva777sea
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:19 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 69):
What percentage of the computers in the USA use Microsoft as their operating system? What percentage of the aircraft flying in and around the USA are built by Boeing? You seem to want to IGNORE just how important the Seattle area is to the economy of the United States.

Not to mention the ports of Seattle and Tacoma. The two combined account for nearly twice as many TEU's than what goes through Vancouver. I believe in overall tonnage, Seattle and Tacoma combined are somewhere in the ballpark of the port of Vancouver. Not to mention that T-Moblie USA, Wheyerhauser, Washington Mutual, Nintendo of America, Nordstrom, Safeco, Starbucks, Paccar, expedia.com, Costco, and amazon.com are all based in the Seattle area. The GDP the Seattle area produces is similiarly sized to Argentina's.
 
ctbarnes
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:20 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 66):
Everything else, and I mean everything else is still around the Puget Sound.

Er, not quite. The Commercial Airplane group is based in Puget Sound in Renton (737) and Everett (everything else). The defense and space operations are based in St. Louis (inherited from the merger with McDonnell Douglas). They also have a big presence in Southern California through the merger of North American and Hughes, as well as Long Beach (though I think the old Douglas line has been closed with the cancellation of the 717).

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 69):

What percentage of the computers in the USA use Microsoft as their operating system? What percentage of the aircraft flying in and around the USA are built by Boeing? You seem to want to IGNORE just how important the Seattle area is to the economy of the United States.

Huh? Dude, again, re-read what I said. I'm not ignoring anything! For the nth time:

Vancouver plays a greater role in Canada's economy than Seattle plays a role in the United States' economy.

It is very, very simple reading comprehension. I am not doubting Seattle's importance to the US economy, but it is not Chicago, New York City, Los Angeles, etc., etc. Where areas, in Canada, Vancouver plays a very important #2 role as their biggest port and their Pacific gateway. Vancouver is #2 in Canada, while Seattle is not #2 in America. This argument has nothing to do with Seattle's "importance". It is a comparison of the relative importance of Seattle to America and Vancouver to Canada. I assert absolutely nothing else.
a.
 
flysherwood
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:22 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 68):
Do you realize that that has nothing to do with my point? The only thing I said is that Vancouver plays a much bigger role in Canada's economy than Seattle does in the United States' economy. That is a fact that cannot be debated, and goes far into telling why Vancouver is much better served internationally.

I am curious to hear how many big "Economic Players" on the world stare are based or have the majority of their operations out of Vancouver B.C.?

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 70):
Amazon.com
Nordstrom
Safeco
Starbucks
Washington Mutual

Let us not forget Weyerhauser, McCaw Communications or T-Mobile.  Wink

All of this is what gives us Portlanders our sometime inferiority complex! Besides Seattle has an NBA, NFL and MLB franchise!  Smile
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:24 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 74):

I am curious to hear how many big "Economic Players" on the world stare are based or have the majority of their operations out of Vancouver B.C.?

That isn't the issue here. The issue is that Vancouver is more important to Canada than Seattle is to the United States. The issue here is not if Seattle is more important than Vancouver on a world stage, which it probably is.
a.
 
flysherwood
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:28 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 75):
Seattle is more important than Vancouver on a world stage, which it probably is.

Most certainly is.  Wink

And I am trying to get accross the fact that you totally underestimate the importance of Seattle to the USA economy.
 
doug_or
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:37 am

Quoting N174UA (Reply 58):
OMG...LOL! That new IKEA store is open, and is right by I-205, on the PDX side of the freeway.

been there, done that, couldn't get linngonbery(sp?) pancakes Sad

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 65):
Pretty much what I've come to expect from Portland. Tell anyone you're from Seattle and they'll shower you with the reasons why "Portland is so much better."

We have the small man syndrome, what can I say?


stanger: Oh, you're from Portland, Orygone, huh? how far is that from Seattle?
Portalnder [mumbling]: not far enough
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
B752OS
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:40 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 74):
Let us not forget Weyerhauser, McCaw Communications or T-Mobile.

T-Mobile, the smallest US cellular company, has their North American Base in Seattle. Hardly anything to champion about. You look at Nike and tell me they are not an international company.

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 71):
Not to mention the ports of Seattle and Tacoma. The two combined account for nearly twice as many TEU's than what goes through Vancouver. I believe in overall tonnage, Seattle and Tacoma combined are somewhere in the ballpark of the port of Vancouver. Not to mention that T-Moblie USA, Wheyerhauser, Washington Mutual, Nintendo of America, Nordstrom, Safeco, Starbucks, Paccar, expedia.com, Costco, and amazon.com are all based in the Seattle area. The GDP the Seattle area produces is similiarly sized to Argentina's.

So you are saying that the GDP, the mtero Seattle area produces is well over 214 Billion? A rather lofty number.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:53 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 76):

And I am trying to get accross the fact that you totally underestimate the importance of Seattle to the USA economy.

No, I do not. Again, you really need to learn some basic reading comprehension. I took no opinion in my original statement as to the relative importance of Seattle's importance to the U.S. economy, so you cannot tell me if I am underestimating Seattle's importance, since I am not saying anything about it. Although, if you were to take it on a global scale, the GaWC Inventory of World Cities, which is quite highly respected though somewhat controversial in economic circles, ranks Seattle and Vancouver identically.

http://www.diserio.com/gawc-world-cities.html
a.
 
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gunsontheroof
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:55 am

I'm suggesting that this thread be moved to non-av.  Wink
Picked a hell of a week to quit sniffing glue.
 
flysherwood
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:08 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 79):
the GaWC Inventory of World Cities, which is quite highly respected though somewhat controversial in economic circles, ranks Seattle and Vancouver identically.

Maybe it should not be so highly respected!  Wink

Quoting B752OS (Reply 78):
So you are saying that the GDP, the mtero Seattle area produces is well over 214 Billion? A rather lofty number.

Not sure if it is that big, but consider how many Billions Microsoft, Boeing, Starbucks and Weyerhauser alone produce in revenue.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 79):
I took no opinion in my original statement as to the relative importance of Seattle's importance to the U.S. economy,



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 73):
Vancouver plays a greater role in Canada's economy than Seattle plays a role in the United States' economy.

It is very, very simple reading comprehension. I am not doubting Seattle's importance to the US economy, but it is not Chicago, New York City, Los Angeles, etc., etc.

What part of the etc.,etc... did you not disqualify Seattle's importance in the USA?

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 79):
No, I do not. Again, you really need to learn some basic reading comprehension.

I happen to have an MBA and am quite capable of comprehending the nonsensicle arguments you put forth. You are like the a.netter's that believe that Dubai will surpass Hong Kong, Singapore, Shanghai and Tokyo as an economic and financial hub someday!  Yeah sure
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:10 am

Oops. Looks like I started a SEA vs. YVR p!$$!ng contest. Sorry.  sorry 

I understand that Vancouver has far more immigrants from more places than Seattle. That is a very legitimate reason why YVR gets more international service.

And I agree that Vancouver is more important to Canada than Seattle is to the US. But Canada is a smaller country. Seattle is bigger than Vancouver and has more economic activity -- you'd think that would generate more business travel, regardless of Vancouver's relative importance among Canadian cities. I don't understand how the importance of a city to its country, all else equal, results in more travel.

Given the businesses and ethnic communities prominent in Seattle, I'm particularly surprised there is no service from SEA to HKG, MNL, or Moscow. Perhaps as the era of the 787 begins, additional services will become economically viable.
 
jetboy319
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:14 am

This isn't the Seattle vs Portland debate as much as the Seattle vs Vancouver debate.  Smile The conclusion I come to is that while Portlanders may feel inferior to Seattle as far as air service, Seattle likewise feels inferior to Vancouver as far as air service. What makes it even more interesting is that a city smaller than Seattle is served by more international airlines to more international destinations. This tends to make me want to agree with MAH4546 as far as Vancouver's important role in Canada vs Seattle's role in the USA. That said, Seattle is certainly very important to the US and World economy, that's undisputed and silly to argue.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:17 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 81):

What part of the etc.,etc... did you not disqualify Seattle's importance in the USA?

It didn't.

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 81):
I happen to have an MBA and am quite capable of comprehending the nonsensicle arguments you put forth. You are like the a.netter's that believe that Dubai will surpass Hong Kong, Singapore, Shanghai and Tokyo as an economic and financial hub someday! Yeah sure

And I happen to have an J.D., so what's your point? You are making an argument out of air here. Give it up. I never downplayed Seattle.

And, for the record, I think the argument that Dubai will surpass those as economic powerhouses is moronic. Don't put words into my mouth.
a.
 
flysherwood
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:27 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 84):
And I happen to have an J.D., so what's your point?

That I am able to comprehend. Your J.D. should have taught you to discern that from my words.  Wink
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:31 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 85):
That I am able to comprehend. Your J.D. should have taught you to discern that from my words.

Comprehend what, that you are putting words into my mouth? I never said anything about Seattle's importance to the U.S. in my original statement. Again, reading comprehension. Learn it. Rather than re-read my original statement, you go ahead and refer to an entirely separate statement, and that by saying "etc, etc., etc." I am downplaying Seattle's importance. That is absolutely moronic.
a.
 
flysherwood
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:31 am

Quoting SeaBosDca (Reply 82):
SEA to HKG, MNL,

We are hoping that Philippine Airlines will start service from MNL once they get the 773ER's!  Smile
 
flysherwood
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:46 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 78):
You look at Nike and tell me they are not an international company.

I am from Portland. No question there. They are one of the reasons why LH started service to PDX along with Adidas, Daimler/Freightliner, Intel and a host of others. I was just adding names to the very long list of companies that contribute to the importance of the Seattle / Tacoma economy to the rest of the country. Too many people have no idea just how much of an impact Microsoft and Boeing has on the world as well as the USA!
 
MAH4546
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:41 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 88):
Have you every thought that it is because your statements are contradictory! You say you don't downplay the importance of Seattle in economic terms yet relegate it below cities unmentioned. Again, so even a simpleton can understand, you seem to be UNAWARE of the importance of Seattle to the US economy. And if you cannot comprehend that, who is the MORON now?

You still look the moron. I said nothing contradictory. I never, never, never stated that Seattle was unimportant to the U.S. economy. I said, again, that Vancouver is more important to Canada's economy than Seattle is to the USA's economy. It takes a simpleton to realize that nowhere does not imply how important Seattle is to the country's economy outside of the fact that Vancouver is more important to Canada than Seattle is to the USA. Since you can't comprehend past a middle school level, I'll put it in list form.

Canada:
1) Toronto
2) Vancouver
3) Montreal
4) Calgary, etc., etc., etc.

United States:
1) NYC
2) LA
3) Washington
4) Chicago
5) San Fran, etc., etc., etc.

I never directly reference the relative importance of Seattle to the US economy. All I said was that Vancouver is more important to Canada, than Seattle is to the US. Again, learn some basic reading comprehension. For someone with an advance degree, it's pretty sad that you can't go through this very simple logic.

Relegating it below cities like NYC, LA, etc. (which, again, had nothing to do with my original statement that you are trying to argue, another fact you continue to ignore) is not downplaying Seattle's importance. If you can't accept the simple fact that those cities are more important to US' economy than Seattle, then you are delusional.

[Edited 2007-09-21 03:45:38]
a.
 
jetboy319
Posts: 231
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:49 pm

Am I the only one who understands what MH4546 is trying to say? If people weren't so sensitive about SEA and actually though about it, they would understand the point he is trying to make. YES - SEATTLE IS VERY IMPORTANT TO THE US ECONOMY! However, there are many more major cities in the United States compared to Canada. That being said, there are more cities in the United States that are larger/play a more significant role in the US Economy than Seattle! Get over it already! If you can't stand that fact, move to New York City, Boston, Los Angeles, Washington DC or San Francisco! Better yet, move to Vancouver! This debate is getting really old and is not even on topic.
 
flysherwood
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:43 am

Quoting Jetboy319 (Reply 91):
If people weren't so sensitive about SEA and actually though about it, they would understand the point he is trying to make.

Who is sensitive about SEA? I am from Portland. The point he is making makes no sense. Who cares if Vancouver is so important to the Canadian economy? What is the size of the Canadian economy compared with the U.S.A.? Seattle has probably 5 times the importance on the world stage than Vancouver does. Which makes it even more perplexing as to why they have much more International air service than Seattle.

Also, I wouldn't be too sure that San Francisco is still more important to the economy than Seattle. Microsoft and Boeing have changed a lot of things in the last few years. Having said all that, I still love living in Portland.
 
B752OS
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:08 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 92):
Who is sensitive about SEA? I am from Portland. The point he is making makes no sense. Who cares if Vancouver is so important to the Canadian economy? What is the size of the Canadian economy compared with the U.S.A.? Seattle has probably 5 times the importance on the world stage than Vancouver does. Which makes it even more perplexing as to why they have much more International air service than Seattle.

Also, I wouldn't be too sure that San Francisco is still more important to the economy than Seattle. Microsoft and Boeing have changed a lot of things in the last few years. Having said all that, I still love living in Portland.

The point that MAH is making makes perfect sense, I am having a hard time believeing that people in this thread who are arguing against it, presumably from Seattle, cannot understand it. He has made clear cut statements and presented them in a way that people should, key word, be able to understand. You people are taking such offense to his statements that are not an insult to the city, are you people just depressed because it rains and is cloudy so much there? The simple fact remains that to Canada, Vancouver is more important than Seattle is to the U.S. That is not to say that Vancouver has a larger economy than does Seattle, it just says in the grad scheme if things, that being the Canadian economy, Vancouver plays a larger role than Seattle does in the grad scheme if things, that being the United States economy.

I think you are over playing the importance of Microsoft. Sure they are big, but how large and fast have they been expanding in the area as opposed to overseas??? Are you trying to say that Seattle should be in the top 5?

If people want to talk about moronic, how about the fact that some people in here think that Seattle's GDP is as large as Argentina's, which would make it #27 in the world.
 
rwsea
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:14 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 93):
The point that MAH is making makes perfect sense, I am having a hard time believeing that people in this thread who are arguing against it, presumably from Seattle, cannot understand it.

Hey it's only one or two - don't lump us all in together!
 
flysherwood
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:14 am

Quoting B752OS (Reply 93):
I think you are over playing the importance of Microsoft.

Really? You are on a computer right now. Who's operating system are you using right now? Apple (3% of the population that own computers) or Windows (96.5% of the population that own computers)?  Yeah sure
 
johnnybgoode
Posts: 2144
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:59 am

I disagree with many of the above statements. I think it is very likely LH will serve SEA rather sooner than later. SEA is one of the major metropolitan areas in the US still unserved by LH. also, LH is expanding quite a bit on the North Atlantic this year, MUC-DEN and FRA-MCO (soon to come) come to my mind. also, LH will receive more longrange aircraft next year, they need to put them somewhere...
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
LH423
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:16 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 69):
What percentage of the computers in the USA use Microsoft as their operating system? What percentage of the aircraft flying in and around the USA are built by Boeing? You seem to want to IGNORE just how important the Seattle area is to the economy of the United States



Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 76):
And I am trying to get accross the fact that you totally underestimate the importance of Seattle to the USA economy.

I'm sorry but Vancouver is arguably Canada's third most important city. Are you going to argue that Seattle is the third most important city to the US? Think long and hard about that. Think of New York, Los Angeles generally are regarded as the two most important cities. I refuse to believe that Seattle ranks just after those two. Important, yes. As important to the US as Vancouver is to Canada, no.

Another reason YVR gets more service is that Vancouver, and British Columbia in general, have a much more prominent role on the international stage in terms of tourism. Vancouver is routinely rated one of the top five best places to live in and BC has quite a few ski resorts, one of which (Whistler) is one of the most recognized names in the ski world.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
skytaxi
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:02 am

Quoting LH423 (Reply 97):
Another reason YVR gets more service is that Vancouver, and British Columbia in general, have a much more prominent role on the international stage in terms of tourism. Vancouver is routinely rated one of the top five best places to live in and BC has quite a few ski resorts, one of which (Whistler) is one of the most recognized names in the ski world.

If there is anyone out there that has not heard of Whistler/Blackcomb, in the winter of 2010 you will. The fact that Vancouver will host the 2010 Winter Olympics tells a little about their importance not only to Canada, but also the World.

[Edited 2007-09-22 01:07:24]
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:54 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 92):
Which makes it even more perplexing as to why they have much more International air service than Seattle.

International demand is higher to/from YVR. That's been true for many years. When I lived in YVR in the 1970s/80s and travelled frequently on business to Europe I often went via SEA and used Pan Am SEA-LHR because flights from YVR to Europe were full. Pan Am's 747s SEA-LHR service, the only SEA-LHR nonstop service then, wasn't even daily and was rarely even close to full.

Several carriers have launched international service to SEA only to drop it after a couple of years (JL and AY come to mind and I believe there was another carrier from Asia) so obviously it wasn't profitable.

In Europe at least, YVR has more visibility and more people seem to be aware of YVR as a good tourist destination than SEA. I have seen many tour operator brochures in Europe featuring a stay in YVR but can't recall ever seeing SEA mentioned. Part of that could of course be due to SEA not spending enough on promotion in overseas markets.

Another more recent factor is the security and visa situation which has deterred many foreign tourists from visiting the USA in total. I'm sure tourism to Canada has benefited from that.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why Doesn't LH Fly To SEA?

Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:58 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 12):
Another issue was probably that the bilaterals between certain countries and the USA limited (and some still limit) the number of US gateways that could be served which would probably result in carriers picking LAX or SFO rather than SEA simply because of the larger potential market and wider variety of connecting opportunities.

You do bring up many valid reasons why YVR sees more variety, but this I disagree with you on this one. The United States, in general, has some of the world's least restrictive bilaterals. I doubt there is any airlines being kept out of Seattle due to limited bilaterals.

There are still a fair number of countries without Open Skies agreements with the USA. Agreements covering those countries still include varying restrictions on the number of carriers that can operate and the number of cities that can be served in each country, whether codesharing is permited, etc etc. Some of the more significant countries without Open Skies agreements with the US:

Australia, Brazil, China, Colombia, Israel, Japan, Mexico, Russia, Vietnam.

Australia is Open Skies for cargo but not passenger.

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