CMH Courting NW For AMS Flight

DeltaRules · Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:29 pm

While we've talked about CMH-Europe before in previous threads, this post actually has an article to back it up.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content..._09-20-07_C10_147V56N.html?sid=101

So CMH is going after NW hoping to land one of up to three new European flights, pitching that there are over 300 passengers a day that travel from the US to Europe, Africa, India & the Middle East. Would NW do this with DTW so close and CVG just down the road with seasonal AMS flights on a 767?

And then there's PIT, who IIRC, also wants an NW AMS flight within a stone's throw.

ERJ170 · Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:37 pm

Let me get this straight...

Columbus is looking for AMS service.. with 28 daily pax a day? Even with connecting opportunities.. I think I know what NWA will say? She-dog PLEASE!!!

That's crazy.. the only way I would even think of offering the service was if CMH was offering subsidies (not incentives) that would basically pay the cost of the flight. Oh.. me.. Lord.. that's crazy..

And the other stats..

CMH-LON = 99 daily pax
CMH-FRA = 42 daily pax
CMH-Paris = 33 daily pax

and they are going after AMS which only has 28? OMG.. OMG.. that is soooooooo.. just SO!

Good luck to them.. if they get it, then they must really be able to Woo the heck out of Northwest!!!!

Wonder what PITs numbers look like.. Are they at LEAST over 200 to make a 757 seem worthwhile?

kl911 · Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:37 pm

If it's only a three hour drive to the nearest airport I wouldn't do it. And if it's more I would feed into DTW. How many destinations can you connect to on NW after landing at CMH?

KL911

kl911 · Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:41 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 2):
CMH-LON = 99 daily pax
CMH-FRA = 42 daily pax
CMH-Paris = 33 daily pax

and they are going after AMS which only has 28? OMG.. OMG.. that is soooooooo.. just SO!

Well, since AMS is their NW/KL hub connecting to all major cities on the globe... It's logical. LON would be only O&D NW can't connect to anyone, just the KLM flights to AMS.

CDG is not favourable as well, since AF and NW have no ATI between them.

KL911

ERJ170 · Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:41 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 2):
How many destinations can you connect to on NW after landing at CMH?

From CHM.. one can transfer anywhere NW, DL, and CO flies nonstop.. so I don't think that is a problem since CMH is a DL focus city.. but what I do think is crazy is that there is such a small O&D base.. I hope there is some significant corporate sponsorship and subsidies for this.. I mean.. CMH better come STRONG!!!! And I don't mean using Skybus destinations either..

flyCMH · Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:46 pm

Quoting DeltaRules (Thread starter):
pitching that there are over 300 passengers a day that travel from the US to Europe, Africa, India & the Middle East.

Over 300 passengers a day? That does seem like a pretty high number. There is a significant population that travels between Columbus and the aforementioned areas around the globe, but I wonder how much of that NWA would expect to capture, especially the high yield travelers that would actually make the route work. It could be doable; the airport would practically hand NWA gobs of money if they decide to go through with it. Skyteam partners Delta and Continental could route some passengers through CMH, similar to BDL. It could also serve as a backup if DTW gets socked in by weather. Hopefully this is an indication that Northwest's BDL-AMS route is doing well, and the airline believes that bringing the concept to other mid-tier cities in the U.S. is worth persuing.

cle757 · Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:48 pm

CO want to start CLE-AMS in the next few years, so CMH pax will have an easy connect up to CLE.

BlueElephant · Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:08 pm

I really think that CMH could support a flight to an International Hub. LON...not so much...but AMS, definately. FRA is a possibility too.

I think however FRA would be better served through PIT because of Bayer....

Would be very cool if it happened!...but I don't think NW would fly this route.

Cubsrule · Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:34 pm

CMH-AMS is kind of pushing it for a 752. It's longer than CO's longest route (EWR-TXL), and while it's shorter than both DTW-DUS and DTW-FRA, we haven't yet seen what NW 752s can actually do in the winter. Frequent fuel stops can kill already marginal flights. So we shall see. (FWIW, PIT-AMS would likely do much better).

SeeTheWorld · Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:35 pm

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 7):
I really think that CMH could support a flight to an International Hub. LON...not so much...but AMS, definately. FRA is a possibility too.

I think however FRA would be better served through PIT because of Bayer....

Would be very cool if it happened!...but I don't think NW would fly this route.

The real question to ask is would CMH-AMS be the next best option for NW from the U.S. Likely, it is not, and I doubt Columbus could come up with enough LONG-TERM money to change that.

flyCMH · Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:49 pm

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 9):
The real question to ask is would CMH-AMS be the next best option for NW from the U.S. Likely, it is not, and I doubt Columbus could come up with enough LONG-TERM money to change that.

Next best, no. Among the next best, maybe. If Northwest is indeed planning on serving 3 more mid-sized cities nonstop from AMS, I would definitely think Indianapolis would be the forerunner. After that, there are quite a few contenders. The strengths CMH has going for it is that it remains a Northwest-operated station, at least for now, and it has historically done well for NW, though mostly due to the Asian traffic out of CMH. Their upcoming November schedule is less than promising, however, with only 4 mainline jets a day.

NWAESC · Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:07 am

Quoting FlyCMH (Reply 5):
Hopefully this is an indication that Northwest's BDL-AMS route is doing well, and the airline believes that bringing the concept to other mid-tier cities in the U.S. is worth persuing.

Load-wise, it's doing pretty good....How that translates into yield, I have no idea...

I would think that IND, PIT, and PHL (in that order) would be the next logical routes. Yes, I know PHL-AMS has been run before, but I think a '57 is better suited to it than the DC10 was.

Quoting FlyCMH (Reply 10):
Their upcoming November schedule is less than promising, however, with only 4 mainline jets a day.

That's too bad...Hopefully, the Dec 18th change sees more M/L back into CMH.

chase · Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:21 am

Quoting FlyCMH (Reply 10):
I would definitely think Indianapolis would be the forerunner

I concur (though am a little biased since that's my home airport). Although probably not until the new terminal opens in...what, 14 months?

Mir · Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:30 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 8):
CMH-AMS is kind of pushing it for a 752.

My thoughts as well (and Indy is even more pushing it). You're sure as hell not going to put a 330 on AMS-CMH.

-Mir

September11 · Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:32 am

NW CMH-AMS would be nice. I wish best of luck to the City of Columbus, a fast growing city.

burnsie28 · Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:36 am

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 6):
CO want to start CLE-AMS in the next few years, so CMH pax will have an easy connect up to CLE.

Even easier to DTW with more flights between DTW-CMH and 5 daily DTW-AMS flights.

Quoting Chase (Reply 12):
I concur (though am a little biased since that's my home airport). Although probably not until the new terminal opens in...what, 14 months?

Exactly IND's current intl terminal is a joke, no jetways, it basically looks like a converted cargo building.

keesje · Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:39 am

It would give them a 1 stop connection to every major city over the ocean.

So what can Columbus do $$ wise in return for a daily connection to a (very good) European hub?

PSU.DTW.SCE · Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:47 am

PIT also approached NW earlier in the year launching service to AMS.

There was no word on how the discussions went.
All that was really known is that NW was asking for a enormous amount of incentives to make a risky (for NW) to proceed

NW is looking to launch 3 new Trans-Atlantic 757 routes next summer. 2 of them are likely to be from DTW, the other 1 likely a non-hub city to AMS.

The non-hub routes that have been thrown around include:
PHL-AMS or BWI-AMS - NW/KLM prompted
CMH-AMS - Airport Administration prompted
PIT-AMS - Airport Administration prompted

EXAAUADL · Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:32 am

Well midsized cities are looking at BDL and wanting in some of the action. There are a large number of cities that probably could support NW service in the summer on 757s to AMS...problem is winter. I wouldnt invest anything in serving these cities UNLESS they could turn an annual profit. Jan/Feb might lose money, but July/Aug better more than offset those losses

Also cities like CHM, IND, etc should pony up some cash for these flights, like $1m plus. Such as a Rev guarantee, travel bank plus cost defferments of taxes and fees.

As for the 28 PDEWS for CHM-AMS, that would grow to more like 60 but the fare would probably come down

LambertMan · Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:51 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 18):

Also cities like CHM, IND, etc should pony up some cash for these flights, like $1m plus. Such as a Rev guarantee, travel bank plus cost defferments of taxes and fees.

Indianapolis would be stretching it for a 752. At the very least there would be some serious payload restrictions, which I'm assuming wouldn't come into play that often considering the plane would be almost empty.

If you're going to throw 1 million dollars around, do it to entice local service that will have a long lasting effect. For example, NW to Seattle/San Diego (which could and should stick long term). That would be an idea. Giving them $1M to start a flight that is shot before it starts is a bad idea.

USAirALB · Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:05 am

i bet if pit gets nwa ams service us airways will bring it back

BlueElephant · Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:06 am

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 11):
Yes, I know PHL-AMS has been run before, but I think a '57 is better suited to it than the DC10 was.

Although NW doesn't fly this route, US does, and with US having a huge amount of connectivity through US Connections as well as United Codeshares, it is likely that NW wouldn't make as much out of PHL.

BWI though I could see as a possibility.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 9):

The real question to ask is would CMH-AMS be the next best option for NW from the U.S. Likely, it is not, and I doubt Columbus could come up with enough LONG-TERM money to change that.

The Next best option....probably not as FLYCMH has already stated...But it's up there and I think Northwest could make it work. But could a 757 do it without a Fuel stop year around...I don't rightly think so.

RL757PVD · Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:13 am

Quoting EXAAUADL (Reply 18):
Well midsized cities are looking at BDL and wanting in some of the action

Any updates how BDL is doing? The July #'s were marginal, but its tough to tell because July is # 1 month for transatlantic flights, but it was the first month for the flight. BDL seems to be able to support it ok in the summer, but im doubting the flight profitability in the off season unless they really fill the front of the plane.

burnsie28 · Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:42 am

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 20):
i bet if pit gets nwa ams service us airways will bring it back

And get owned on it again.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 21):
Although NW doesn't fly this route, US does, and with US having a huge amount of connectivity through US Connections as well as United Codeshares, it is likely that NW wouldn't make as much out of PHL.

But on the other side NW has a ton of connecting opportunities through AMS.

NWAESC · Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:22 am

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 22):
Any updates how BDL is doing?

Loads on it seem decent, but as mentioned before, I have no idea on how that translates yield-wise....

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 17):
BWI-AMS - NW/KLM prompted

Interesting...I wonder if this would be more of a better bet than bringing back IAD-AMS would be?

PSU.DTW.SCE · Fri Sep 21, 2007 10:40 am

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 24):
Interesting...I wonder if this would be more of a better bet than bringing back IAD-AMS would be?

KLM operates IAD-AMS, which is essentially the same as NWA. NW had operated IAD-AMS in the past, prior to when the rationalized their Trans-Atlantic flying where NW got all the AMS flights from their domestic hubs & KLM got some of the outstations to split the flying roughly 50/50. They are looking at BWI due to the large O&D market that currently now either as to a) connect b) drive to IAD c) drive to PHL
PHL is being considered since its the largest O&D market in the US with out NW/KLM AMS service. The only downside is that US / Star has most of the major European routes covered nonstop, thus requiring NW to rely on those loyal Skyteam flyers (which there already is AF CDG service), "beyond AMS" destinations in the Middle East, and on price vs. the nonstops offer via US/Star. PHL is such a large market that NW is considering a return. The DC-10 was the wrong aircraft to do it with when they drive a few years back.

[Edited 2007-09-21 03:42:27]

Indy · Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:57 am

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 19):
Indianapolis would be stretching it for a 752. At the very least there would be some serious payload restrictions, which I'm assuming wouldn't come into play that often considering the plane would be almost empty.

DTW-FRA is 4161 miles. IND-AMS is 4171 miles. I doubt 10 miles is going to make a difference. Also the commerce department says otherwise on the plane being almost empty. Travel between Indianapolis and Europe would support the flight especially with AMS being a hub. It wouldn't work to a non hub city. But with KL providing the European connections the flight would be fine. Per the Commerce Department 405 people travel between Indianapolis and Europe each day. 931 people on average make the trip every day when you factor in the state. Given those numbers I don't think they'd have a hard time filling 160 seats.

LambertMan · Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:12 pm

Quoting NWAESC (Reply 24):

Loads on it seem decent, but as mentioned before, I have no idea on how that translates yield-wise....

Given the affluence of the area, you would have to think that the yields are something they were counting on to make BDL-AMS a winner. I'm sure they are at least adequate.

Quoting Indy (Reply 26):
DTW-FRA is 4161 miles. IND-AMS is 4171 miles. I doubt 10 miles is going to make a difference. Also the commerce department says otherwise on the plane being almost empty

Well, I'm just making a wild guess here and am going to say there is some auto traffic back and forth between Detroit and Frankfurt. As a result, there could be some decent yields to be had. Filling half the plane probably makes that at least an adequate performing route.

On the other hand, IND-AMS would be mainly leisure/connecting travel. Indianapolis' main industries are banking, healthcare, and insurance providers, which needless to say doesn't translate as well to international travel. Filling that at a capacity of 70% with at best average yields probably loses money. So yes, payload restrictions probably do play some part.

I'm not trying to be pessimistic here, but if there were $1M to be spent, spend it on domestic destinations that need service. A flight to Amsterdam just doesn't make much sense, especially with Detroit just a short hop to the north. Detroit is St. Louis' Chicago.

Indy · Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:38 pm

It also doesn't make sense to shuttle a plane full of people to go to AMS when they could just go direct and save the double handling of passengers. If they can eliminate the double handling plus receive what would certainly be incentives it would make perfect sense to add the flight. Unnecessary connections are a waste of time for everyone. It is even worse on the return flight when the flight is 9 hours and you have to go through the international arrivals cattle call that exists in the major airports. You top that less than thrilling experience by taking a long hike to your next flight. This also ensures you will have at least a 2 hour layover. It is a total waste of time for travelers.

JetJock22 · Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:42 pm

Quoting Chase (Reply 12):
Although probably not until the new terminal opens in...what, 14 months?

Are you refering to Indy or CMH? If you are refering to CMH, it's gonna be more like 14 years before our new terminal opens.

B752OS · Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 15):
Even easier to DTW with more flights between DTW-CMH and 5 daily DTW-AMS flights.

That would make little sense. I think the premise of getting NW to start CMH-AMS was to allow pax to connect throughout Europe and the Middle East. Besides, NW having 5 x daily flights to AMS is nothing to brag about, the only reason the flights exist is because of the partnership. I don't know about you guys, but being routed CMH-DTW-AMS-ATH would be a big pain in the butt and add several hours to the travel time when one could fly CMH-JFK-ATH.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 21):
Although NW doesn't fly this route, US does, and with US having a huge amount of connectivity through US Connections as well as United Codeshares, it is likely that NW wouldn't make as much out of PHL.

NW would get killed on PHL-AMS. US owns the route, they have all the feed to support the flight and NW could only hope to capture the PHL-Europe/Middle East pax which would not go over well consider US has a decent sized network and they, along with LH fly to the main Star hubs in Europe and can easily funnel pax through there.

PSU.DTW.SCE · Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:48 am

Agreed on the PHL side of things regarding US, however the consideration is if there are enough Skyteam (KLM) loyal, European based passengers that travel to PHL. It was a bloodbath with the DC-10, however the picture changes when you scale back to a 160 seat aircraft.

Who would believe that LH has been so successful at DTW, in a NW/KLM stronghold.

Cubsrule · Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:55 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 26):
DTW-FRA is 4161 miles. IND-AMS is 4171 miles. I doubt 10 miles is going to make a difference.

DTW-FRA was also summer-only... We have no idea how that route would have done in the winter. While NW billed it as a seasonal addition of capacity (which most Europe routes need), I'm not sure that's the only reason it wasn't flown in the winter...

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 31):
Agreed on the PHL side of things regarding US, however the consideration is if there are enough Skyteam (KLM) loyal, European based passengers that travel to PHL.

KL seems to be able to get Skyteam-loyal European passengers to go anywhere... it's amazing how many they get to visit Memphis. Of course, I don't know how AF changes that dynamic.

BlueElephant · Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:56 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 23):

But on the other side NW has a ton of connecting opportunities through AMS.

I agree with that...but think about it this way.

If NW is choosing to fly from PHL to AMS...then they're probably looking at the local catchment area of PHL for traffic...That is to say that most of their traffic on the flight would be originating in PHL area.

US uses this route, for the passengers from PHL as well as those connecting through PHL for AMS.

So question is. If NW feel they have enough passengers to fill a 757 or A330 from PHL to AMS...then why don't US fly the 330's to AMS to pick up the extra traffic load.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 31):
Who would believe that LH has been so successful at DTW, in a NW/KLM stronghold.

This is probably because of Connecting passengers in FRA who's destination is DTW....If i recall correctly there are a number of Middle Eastern and Indian people in Detroit, they probably connect through FRA because of LH's pretty solid Indian and Middle Eastern Network.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 32):

KL seems to be able to get Skyteam-loyal European passengers to go anywhere... it's amazing how many they get to visit Memphis. Of course, I don't know how AF changes that dynamic.

Again, I believe a good number of these passengers would be connecting through Memphis.

Indy · Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:09 am

Quoting JetJock22 (Reply 29):
Are you refering to Indy or CMH? If you are refering to CMH, it's gonna be more like 14 years before our new terminal opens.

I'm 99% sure he is talking about IND. The new terminal opens in Nov 2008. I just had the feeling CMH was further along in the planning phase. Are they still years away from breaking ground?

masseybrown · Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:52 am

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 27):
Indianapolis' main industries are banking, healthcare, and insurance providers, which needless to say doesn't translate as well to international travel.

Every important medical R&D lab has foreign collaborators and this is encouraged by the federal grant machinery. A foreign collaboration is considered a plus if you are asking the NIH for a grant, so the R&D part of medicine includes a lot of foreign travel. Eli Lilly, directly or indirectly, probably generates a significant percentage of the foreign travel out of IND.

Actual healthcare (hospitals, nurses, sick people, etc.) generates much less air travel unless you're talking about premier centers like the Mayo Clinic or the Cleveland Clinic (Barnes Jewish in STL), where the patients arrive in their own 747's.

B752OS · Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 33):
This is probably because of Connecting passengers in FRA who's destination is DTW....If i recall correctly there are a number of Middle Eastern and Indian people in Detroit, they probably connect through FRA because of LH's pretty solid Indian and Middle Eastern Network.

They have a great network. I know a lot of Indian people here in Boston that use LH for their bi-yearly trips home.

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 33):
So question is. If NW feel they have enough passengers to fill a 757 or A330 from PHL to AMS...then why don't US fly the 330's to AMS to pick up the extra traffic load.

I doubt NW would have much success on a PHL-AMS route. US and their star partners more than fill the need for European pax. One can either fly to the number of destinations already served by US or connect through FRA on LH.

Indy · Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:05 am

How common or uncommon is it for an airport authority to petition the DOT on behalf of a carrier like what IND has done for NW/KL?

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf103/487639_web.pdf

masseybrown · Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:12 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 37):
How common or uncommon is it for an airport authority to petition the DOT on behalf of a carrier like what IND has done for NW/KL?

Extremely common. The "civic parties", as the DOT calls them, almost always support any application for air service in their own communities. Local House reps and both IN senators will probably add their support as well.

Indy · Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:17 am

There is no transatlantic service out of IND so that wouldn't really apply would it? This petition is specific to transatlantic service.

Cubsrule · Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting BlueElephant (Reply 33):
Again, I believe a good number of these passengers would be connecting through Memphis.

No, KL's advertising in Europe is Memphis-specific.

masseybrown · Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:29 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 39):
There is no transatlantic service out of IND so that wouldn't really apply would it? This petition is specific to transatlantic service.

Given open skies, specific city pairs don't matter in this case. IND is trying to curry favor with NW by supporting them in hopes of a little payback - or at least notice by reminding NW that they are being helpful. Again, it's very common.

Plus, IND may know something ... Smile

Indy · Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:39 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 41):
or at least notice by reminding NW that they are being helpful

Sucking up? lol. I figured a government run organization would have to be impartial but maybe I'm just way off in that thinking.

LGAtoIND · Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:45 am

It would seem odd for CMH to get AMS service before IND, with IND being a NW focus city, and I believe, a bigger O&D than CMH.

YHZ · Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:55 am

Don't forget PHL has had NW service to AMS in the past. The aircraft was pulled either for an additional DTW AMS or it might have been for MXP or FCO. There has always been rumbles of NW returning to PHL AMS sector. CMH seems to be a stretch, but it will come down to what makes sense for NW and also $$ incentives no doubt. I would think IND would have a better dog in the hunt as it has been a focus city +/- for several years.

masseybrown · Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:56 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 42):
Sucking up? lol.

In a word, yes. Smile

But it's in the airport's interest as well; a "what's good for NW is good for IND" kind of thing .

Indy · Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:55 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 45):
what's good for NW is good for IND

Thats true. NW was #1 last year with around 25% of the market. They handled something like 2 million passengers. I haven't seen stats for this year so I have no idea how they rank.

CitrusCritter · Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:10 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 40):
No, KL's advertising in Europe is Memphis-specific.

I'm sure there are Europeans that like barbeque and the blues...not to mention Graceland. Wink

Memphis is a great city...but yeah, the high-yield O&D...that is pretty impressive to generate TATL to Memphis.

44k · Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:04 am

Quoting JetJock22 (Reply 29):
If you are refering to CMH, it's gonna be more like 14 years before our new terminal opens.

The prospect of an international flight at CMH is surely an exciting one. I just wonder if the airport is up to par to handle it? Surely, CMH terminal is very modern and very nice for a domestic terminal, but what about international facilities such as customs etc?

NW has gates B35-36 at the very end of the B concourse, they would be able to board the flight there I'm sure, but there are no customs facilities at that end. They would have to move or use some other gate to deplane pax.

I'm still hoping for an AA CMH-LON Big grin

usflyer msp · Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:48 am

KLM actually flew AMS-BWI for a few years in the early 90's. The launched it at the same time that they launched AMS-MSP.

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