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LTU330
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Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:35 am

Lufthansa Regional (Augsburg Airways) Dash 8 landed on 08R with nosegear failure. Looks like a -400. Bad few weeks for the Dash 8.
 
EFHK
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:38 am

This is certainly something that Dash -400s don't need. At least according to those reports it wasn't the right main gear.
 
JoKeR
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:38 am

Another Q400 mishap.... this is not good! Any injuries?
 
EMA747
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:45 am

Here we go again with the Q400 problems. After the SAS incidents this has to be too many already without another one. Bombardier needs to sort this right now. It would be an absolute outrage if there is a dash 8 accident with fatalities after what has happened already.

It could be something unconnected with the recent incidents but I somehow doubt it.
Failing doesn’t make you a failure. Giving up and refusing to try again does!
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:48 am

With nose-gear failure I can't imagine there being any injuries, the nose isn't that far off the ground and hopefully it would have come to a stop quickly.


Dan Smile
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
EFHK
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:56 am

The big question is whether this aircraft was checked after the SK incidents.
 
threepoint
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:01 am

Quoting EMA747 (Reply 3):
Here we go again with the Q400 problems... Bombardier needs to sort this right now.

They are. It's not like they're sitting idle after the three maingear mishaps (incl the Japan one). Come on now.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
Delta777Jet
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:01 am

Impressive, the Q400's starting to having a serious row of incidents and accidents.
Something is strange with this a/c.....
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
OHLHD
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:10 am

That is bad news for the Q400.  Sad

Hopefully everybody is fine on board!
 
OHLHD
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:37 am

More news I just received from a friend:

The A/C was on the way to FLR when the Captain discovered that there was a Nose gear failure and since he could not land at FLR he decided to return to MUC instead. He made a safe landing at MUC. No serious injuries.  Smile
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:47 am

Quoting LTU330 (Thread starter):
Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Don't call it an "accident" until it's proven to be an accident. It's a crash.
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
xtoler
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:53 am

This does seem fishy that all of these incidents are happeneing close together.

BTW, Frontier Airlines and the FAA are sitting down for talks to get some new -8's flying for new commuter routes out of Denver.
EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
 
Sandager
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 4:53 am

Quoting Threepoint (Reply 6):
They are. It's not like they're sitting idle after the three maingear mishaps (incl the Japan one). Come on now.

Well according to the Danish medias and SAS too, I believe, there certainly hasn't been much support from Bombardier. More the opposite. Certainly Bombardier has been critisized a lot in the Danish press lately for they attitude in these incidents
 
Can258
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:14 am

OMG !!!!!!!!!! My dad was in that flight he just called me from Munich . I couldn't believe what I heard . Thanks god everyone is OK . He told me that they were approaching Florence and then the pilot told them that the runway is not long enough to stop therefore they returned to Munich and landed on 08R . The nose is broken and he took photos . I will send more details as soon as possible and also i will post the photos . OMG Thats bad very bad . Whats going on with these Dash 8's ???

Can258



[Edited 2007-09-21 22:31:51]
 
TuRbUleNc3
Posts: 462
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:19 am

Quoting Can258 (Reply 13):
He told me that they were approaching Malpensa

I thought someone said the flight was going to FLR ..Florence?
 
xtoler
Posts: 278
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting Sandager (Reply 12):
Well according to the Danish medias

Well, you know how the media is anywhere in the world. Then again I wouldn't doubt the between the media and manufacturer would say two different things. I wouldn't put it past Bombardier to place blame on the airlines' (yes plural).
That's a pretty piss poor business attitude if they aren't doing anything to fix this problem.

I'd take my business elsewhere. I really am an airline CEO, even though I live in a small flat and drive an 8 year old Ford Taurus and actually work nights as a computer operator for a distribution center in Denver (it's my side job).  liar 
Just kidding, had to lighten the mood.  Smile
EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
 
Can258
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:26 am

I'm sorry guys I wrote Malpensa . Its Florence I was in shock !!. Thanks God nothing happened. My dad also told me that they took video while landing and after landing . I will send the photos and videos as soon as he sends them to me .
 
MerlinIIIB
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:26 am

Has dere been ANY fatalities in landing gear related incidents worldwide the last 10 years?
 
xtoler
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:10 am

RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 5:46 am

I'm checking for any fatalities regarding gear collapse. I haven't found anything yet, but I did find an interesting site, with interesting incidents.

aviation-safety.net/news/news.php

Slightly off topic, but anyone operate or fly BAe 4100 (J41) Jetstreams and have any problems with the nose gear slipping off the pinion (I think that's it) either taxiing or landing? Just wondering. When I flew there were at least two I know of we had problems with. And another one we did have a nose wheel collapse.
EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
 
CPHGuard
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting Xtoler (Reply 15):
Well, you know how the media is anywhere in the world

As I have written several times in this forum, it's not a mediahype.

According to the report released by the Swedish investigation board a couple of weeks ago, the relationship between SAS and Bombardier has been close to the freezing point.

The report can be found here in swedish only:

http://www.havkom.se/virtupload/news/rl2007_12.pdf

[Edited 2007-09-22 00:02:22]
 
Alessandro
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:55 am

From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
RIXrat
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:06 am

Quoting MerlinIIIB (Reply 17):
Has there been ANY fatalities in landing gear related incidents worldwide the last 10 years?

Does there have to be fatalities in order to get the plane fixed right? So far Bombardier has been very lucky that there have been no fatalities, but there have been slight injuries on the 400 crashes. This plane has to be watched very closely.
 
OHLHD
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:08 am

I just remembered that I wanted to fly the IQ Q400 on Sunday! I hope they do not ground the fleet again!  Smile
 
ElpinDAB
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:18 am

Does anybody know if this is one of 60 Q400's with over 10,000 cycles that Bombardier suggested have a gear inspection?

It seems to me that there might be a bigger problem than simply having 10,000+ cycles on the gear...
 
Sukhoi
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 22):
I just remembered that I wanted to fly the IQ Q400 on Sunday! I hope they do not ground the fleet again!

You are joking right! Fly KF instead hopefully they don´t do crashlandings!
 
OHLHD
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:02 am

RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:23 am

Quoting Sukhoi (Reply 24):
You are joking right! Fly KF instead hopefully they don´t do crashlandings!

I know but I am at VIE right now. Big grin If I was able to I choose the exotic way.  Smile
 
TuRbUleNc3
Posts: 462
Joined: Wed May 24, 2006 8:13 pm

RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:24 am

Quoting Can258 (Reply 16):
I'm sorry guys I wrote Malpensa . Its Florence I was in shock !!. Thanks God nothing happened. My dad also told me that they took video while landing and after landing . I will send the photos and videos as soon as he sends them to me .

I didnt doubt you, i guessed that may be the cause.
Pics/videos are welcome Big grin i would sure like to see them.
 
xtoler
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:10 am

RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:40 am

Quoting CPHGuard (Reply 19):
As I have written several times in this forum, it's not a mediahype.

If you were in America we call that the Liberal Left Wing, Anti-Republican, Anti-Bush... blah, blah, blah. Who can you trust as far as the media is concerned? I wish I could read Scandanavian language, but I get the point. It looks like Bombardier is not holding up to whatever contracts they have. As I stated before, it is a bad business practice, I was just hoping it wasn't the case.



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 20):

Mein Deutsche is a bit rusty, but I did understand this article. Danke schoen. Sorry, I can't remember "thank you" in Swedish.
EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
 
Alessandro
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:52 am

Xtoler, tack is the word.
I nicked the link from my now defunct double thread...
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
scrumpy492003
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:11 am

A report in a Canadian newspaper (Globe and Mail)- business section last weekend from Bombardier, (only read it yesterday) said that the main gear failure was due to a corroded bolt, which suggests to me a supplier problem, because these things should not be corrodeable!! i.e. the metal involved or the coating etc. I would hate to think that it was a spec. problem or oversight!!.

Peter
peter b95 c-ghfu
 
YVRLTN
Posts: 2344
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:24 am

Quoting EFHK (Reply 5):
The big question is whether this aircraft was checked after the SK incidents.

Do LH & SK share the same mx or do they both look after their own mx?? A possible common link, bearing in mind Bombardier (not me...) are blaming SK for not finding corrosion, said to be the cause of their accidents.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
OHLHD
Posts: 2903
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:30 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 30):
Do LH & SK share the same mx or do they both look after their own mx??

I do not believe that they share the mx.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 30):
A possible common link, bearing in mind Bombardier (not me...) are blaming SK for not finding corrosion, said to be the cause of their accidents.

See this thread answer number 7 by CPHGuard.
Scandinavian DHC-8-400Q: When Back In Service? (by Airevents Sep 21 2007 in Civil Aviation)
 
Rivet42
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 8:58 am

I wouldn't call this an 'accident', as the pilot did whatever he did with full intent & control; neither would I call it a 'crash', as it was a controlled landing with a suspected nose-gear problem. It should be referred to as an 'incident', and I wish people would title their threads appropriately so as not to appear so over-dramatic, or does everyone work for a newspaper...??!  Smile

Riv'
I travel, therefore I am.
 
Aleksandar
Posts: 2941
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2000 11:43 pm

RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:38 am

Quoting CPHGuard (Reply 19):
As I have written several times in this forum, it's not a mediahype.

At first, I thought it was, but this is too much.

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 2):
Another Q400 mishap.... this is not good!

In fact, it is very bad for everyone, except ATR, I guess.
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
 
CPHGuard
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:58 pm

RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:39 am

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 32):
I wouldn't call this an 'accident', as the pilot did whatever he did with full intent & control; neither would I call it a 'crash'

I'm pretty sure there is a definition of when you can call it a crash or incident.

In my world, an accident is when an aircraft comes to a standstill with hull damage.

But it would be interesting to find out.
 
Aleksandar
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Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2000 11:43 pm

RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:42 am

Quoting CPHGuard (Reply 34):
In my world, an accident is when an aircraft comes to a standstill with hull damage.

I simplified that a bit:
incident = no fatalities
accident= with fatalities
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
 
CPHGuard
Posts: 267
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:58 pm

RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:46 am

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 35):
I simplified that a bit:
incident = no fatalities
accident= with fatalities

Here it comes. The definition out of NTSB:

All investigations in the online aviation accident database are defined as either "Incident" and "Accident." An accident is defined as "an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage".

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/HELPFILE.HTM?x_form=#General_info

So i beleive it is fair to call this an accident.
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:47 am

An accident means no one was at fault. Do we know that some maintenance guy didn't screw something up the last time the nose gear was worked on? Do we know that the pilots didn't do something wrong? Only when everyone involved is cleared of wrongdoing or negligence can we correctly label it as an accident. Until then, it's a crash or incident.

At least that's the way it is in my part of the world.
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
CPHGuard
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:00 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 37):
An accident means no one was at fault.

Don't agree with you on that.

99.9% of all airplane accidents, someone is at fault. It could be mechanics, pilots, manufacturer, ATC, etc.

Maybe in severe weather conditions you can claim noone is at fault, but then the pilots or the ATC should have monitored it.

The NTSB definition is in reply 36.

Have a nice day
Thomas
 
Aleksandar
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:02 am

Quoting CPHGuard (Reply 36):
Here it comes. The definition out of NTSB:

Thanks, but this is something I've read in FI ages ago (more than a decade) and old dog can't learn new tricks that fast  wink  Anyway, I'll try to adapt myself to NTSB definition.
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:11 am

Quoting CPHGuard (Reply 38):
99.9% of all airplane accidents, someone is at fault

That's an oxymoron.

Here's a good explanation of accident vs. incident:

Don't Use the 'A' Word

In discussing prevention, it is important to clarify the terms "accident" and "incident." According to Webster's Dictionary the word accident implies that the event was a chance occurrence, a mishap. It creates the impression that it just happened, and that it was unexpected and unpreventable. This can create a means to escape responsibility, avoid rectifying the situation, dodge scrutinizing current methods, and yield to pressure to change.

In incident prevention, we must start with the principle that all injuries are preventable and, hence, they are incidents because they are subordinate to something else, such as rule violation or inadequate training. Therefore, my first recommendation is to eliminate the use of the word "accident," both written and verbally, to reinforce the principle of preventability.

John Wettstein, CRSP
WETTSTEIN SAFETY STRATEGIES INC.
Edmonton, AB


Source
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
xtoler
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:10 am

RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:14 am

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 28):
tack

Tack!
EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
 
kbfispotter
Posts: 658
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 5:56 pm

RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:15 am

Quoting CPHGuard (Reply 19):
As I have written several times in this forum, it's not a mediahype.

According to the report released by the Swedish investigation board a couple of weeks ago, the relationship between SAS and Bombardier has been close to the freezing point.

I will certianly believe that... We have waited days in the past to hear back from Bombardier on issues with the Q400 and the Dash 8-200. Their customer support is a joke, as it does not exist.

Kris
Proud to be an A&P!!!
 
xtoler
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:10 am

RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:19 am

Accident = Sh!t happens
Incident = Cain't say fer sher what happend'
EMB145 F/A, F/E, J41 F/A, F/E, because my wife clipped my wings, armchair captain
 
Rivet42
Posts: 608
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:26 am

RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:38 am

Quoting CPHGuard (Reply 36):
"...and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage."

(my emphasis, for clarity)

Fair enough, but I wasn't aware that there were any serious injuries, and looking at the photo i'd be very reluctant to describe hull damage as 'substantial'...

Riv'
I travel, therefore I am.
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2597
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:53 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 40):
That's an oxymoron.

Here's a good explanation of accident vs. incident:

Don't Use the 'A' Word

In discussing prevention, it is important to clarify the terms "accident" and "incident." According to Webster's Dictionary the word accident implies that the event was a chance occurrence, a mishap. It creates the impression that it just happened, and that it was unexpected and unpreventable. This can create a means to escape responsibility, avoid rectifying the situation, dodge scrutinizing current methods, and yield to pressure to change.

We are discussing aviation. "Accident" has a specific aviation related definition, completely independent of what Webster decides to publish. Whether this event is defined as an "accident" or "incident" will be determined by the extent of the damage to the aircraft. It will not be defined as a "crash". Also, I think the author of what you quoted if full of crap, and is writing this garbage to try and justify his job. Most people do not use the word "accident" to imply that an event was unpreventable, just that the event was unintentional.

As for today's unconventional landing (everyone ok with that term?), I hope Bombardier deciedes to pull their head out of the sand and get serious about solving these gear issues. Their future as a commercial aircraft manufacturer is probably riding on how they deal with these issues. Can you imagine how much it will infuriate airlines and passengers if the Q400 has to be grounded again worldwide for inspections?
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:07 pm

Interesting. I recall receiving a memo from the US DOT stating that vehicle crashes will no longer be referred to "accidents." They also recommended that insurance companies, hospitals, and police, fire, and EMS depts no longer refer crashes as "accidents" in verbal and written reports. That was about eight years ago and we've done a good job of converting. But what do I know? I'm just a retired EMS chief.

Maybe the FAA is just a little behind the ball.
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
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LTU330
Topic Author
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:39 pm

Quoting Xtoler (Reply 11):
Don't call it an "accident" until it's proven to be an accident. It's a crash.



Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 33):
I wouldn't call this an 'accident', as the pilot did whatever he did with full intent & control; neither would I call it a 'crash', as it was a controlled landing with a suspected nose-gear problem. It should be referred to as an 'incident', and I wish people would title their threads appropriately so as not to appear so over-dramatic, or does everyone work for a newspaper...??!

Right. What do you want ? 'Crash' or 'Incident'. Personally it does not bother me. Maybe I should have either not bothered reporting it, or maybe I should have wrote 'Dash 8 sat on runway at MUC with nosegear retracted'. I apologise to those people that are offended by the title. On the way home from work last night I saw a car incident and at work one of my German colleagues had a crash with a pair of maintenance steps. His leg is now very sore  Wink

[Edited 2007-09-22 07:53:33]
 
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flybynight
Posts: 1528
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RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:47 pm

Seems like Horizon Air is getting their fleet up and running again pretty quickly, but I guess that is because the number of cycles aren't that great.

Still, I've read several times that SK hasn't been too thrilled with Bombadier.
Heia Norge!
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:14 pm

RE: Dash 8 Accident In MUC

Sat Sep 22, 2007 2:54 pm

Quoting LTU330 (Reply 47):
On the way home from work last night I saw a car incident and at work one of my German colleagues had a crash with a pair of maintenance steps.

Switch around "incident" and "crash" and you've got it right. Although saying he crashed into a set of steps would be OK.
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail

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