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FlyASAGuy2005
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Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Sun Sep 23, 2007 10:00 pm

Ship 839AS (ASA CRJ-200) was recently rolled out of the paint shop not too long ago and it has already been damaged.

http://www.deltava.org/thread.do?id=0xe2e7

Not too pretty huh? What's up with the rampers? I thought ASA had a "safety diamond" rule in place. Seems to me like there wasn't even a tail cone placed. Quite funny how it just got a fresh paint job and now it has to undergo work like this which will take it out of service for a while.

How do you guys think ASA will go about this? Is it flyable back down to ATL? Will they have to fly up parts and supplies and crew to CHA to have it fixed?
What gets measured gets done.
 
DeltaAVL
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:10 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
Is it flyable back down to ATL?

No, you can't fly with a gaping hole in the empenage.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
Will they have to fly up parts and supplies and crew to CHA to have it fixed?

Yes.
 
srbmod
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:35 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Thread starter):
What's up with the rampers? I thought ASA had a "safety diamond" rule in place

From my own experiences working for EV @ ATL back in 2000, some of the rampers seem to not give a damn to safety, especially if it means they have to do extra work. There were quite a few times where I would have marshaled an a/c in and then have to go put the cone by the tail because the wing walker that was supposed to do it was too lazy to do it. Another time, I got in an argument with a guy because he parked the belt loader right up against the plane. I was in the bin and kept telling him to move the belt loader back because your not supposed to have it touch the a/c at all. When I used to push back Brasilias, I'd have to keep an eye on the wing walker to my left because they would sometimes start walking towards the #2 engine, which was turning because I didn't want to watch someone get sliced and diced in front of me.

It's honestly a surprise that more a/c don't get damaged by EV ramp crews. The "safety" team they had on the ramp @ ATL when I was there was nothing but a joke, as many of the rampers they would get onto for safety issues would just ignore them. When I was working out there, there was one time where one of the day shift rampers on my gate left the carry on cart in the safety zone and the marshaler ran one of the props on a Brasilia right into it, leading to the cart being heavily damaged and the prop being replaced. One of the folks working in the catering/cleaning dept. at that time had less than a year earlier, been fired from FL because she damaged a DC-9 (take the above linked incident with the CRJ, and switch ends of the a/c) to the tune of over $1 million. The a/c was slated for retirement at the first of the year, but because of this incident, they repaired it enough to ferry to a boneyard.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:37 am

That's what $10/hour gets you...
 
pilotboi
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:55 am

This is exactly why we use cones at the tail and along the wing. Safety always comes first on our ramp, and we don't take that lightly. If this happened on our ramp, he would probably be terminated, if not suspended for a while. I'm going to post this in our breakroom on our wall with other ramp mishaps.
 
acvitale
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:55 am

Delta took over handling from ASA in June. Concurrent with that were 40+ incidents of ramp rash with ASA aircraft. The number literally went thru the roof when DL took over the handling. My understanding is the DL rampers do not care about commuter partner aircraft and the problem is epidemic.
 
pilotboi
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:22 am

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 5):
My understanding is the DL rampers do not care about commuter partner aircraft and the problem is epidemic.

That's kind of odd, but believable. But you would think that a person would either a) care about all aircraft or b) not care about any aircraft. Why would it change depending on the company. They are still getting paid the same, still doing the same work, and can still do the same damage and get the same punishments. If anything, the regional aircraft should be taken care of more because they are usually newer.
 
srbmod
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:22 am

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 5):
Delta took over handling from ASA in June. Concurrent with that were 40+ incidents of ramp rash with ASA aircraft. The number literally went thru the roof when DL took over the handling. My understanding is the DL rampers do not care about commuter partner aircraft and the problem is epidemic.

It was just at ATL where DL replaced EV in handling DL Connection, and the outstations that were staffed by EV were unaffected by the move.

http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=10588

Considering that essentially a good part of the DL employees now working the EV ramp @ ATL were EV employees who had their employment transferred over to DL (When they were hiring for the switch, EV folks had first dibs on the positions), it's no surprise that it's more of the same. They probably would have been better served to just start from scratch with a new batch of employees, as you really can't undo the bad habits many of the EV rampers already had.
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:25 am

Bummer. 839as usually comes in to APF at least once a week, now I am for sure not going to see it before they pull out.
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
skibum9
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:25 am

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 1):
No, you can't fly with a gaping hole in the empenage.

Sure you can. As long as it does not impact the airworthiness of the airplane, it can be temporarily repaired and flown on a ferry permit. Since it is in the tail, it is beyond the pressure bulkhead, so it can even be taken up to altitude. However given the distance from CHA to ATL, and the damage, it will probably be flown back to ATL under 12,000 ft. at a reduced speed.
Tailwinds!!!
 
pilotboi
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 9):
it will probably be flown back to ATL under 12,000 ft.

That's probably the typical altitude for that flight anyway, lol. It's only 92 NM.
 
peachair
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:49 am

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 5):
Delta took over handling from ASA in June. Concurrent with that were 40+ incidents of ramp rash with ASA aircraft.

This transition was ATL only.

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 5):
My understanding is the DL rampers do not care about commuter partner aircraft and the problem is epidemic.

So the DL rampers (and their epidemic apathy toward ASA aircraft) think it is ok to drive into an ASA, just because they do not care about their commuter partners. Right...
You obviously do not work in this environment. These types of issues are inexcusable and usually lead to disciplinary action if negligence was to blame. Find a real ramp agent and ask them what the deal is.
 
acvitale
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:04 am

Quoting PeachAir (Reply 11):
So the DL rampers (and their epidemic apathy toward ASA aircraft) think it is ok to drive into an ASA, just because they do not care about their commuter partners. Right...
You obviously do not work in this environment. These types of issues are inexcusable and usually lead to disciplinary action if negligence was to blame. Find a real ramp agent and ask them what the deal is.

In June 2007 DL replaced EV rampers in ATL.

You do not like my comment.

Would you care to cite the number of damaged aircraft in May versus June?

How about June 06 vs June 07

How about July 06 to July 07

or July to May

Care to comment on how many incidents where DL rampers failed to notify the EV crew of damage to the aircraft and it was luck that it was discovered.

When you can answer these questions and then tell me with a straight face that DL rampers have the same care for EV as their own ops and that nothing has changed. I will respond. Until then the facts seem to paint a clear story. It appears that ground rash tripled after DL ramp took over. Regional aircraft are different then mainline and demand proper training and care. That seems to have been lacking lately.
 
dl767captain
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:44 am

is there a reason why DL decided not to paint the engines blue on these planes? kind of off topic but looking at those pictures it just seems weird, and definately a bummer the plane was so messed up! it looks good in the new paint though
 
pilotboi
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:47 am

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 13):
is there a reason why DL decided not to paint the engines blue on these planes?

As discussed in other threads...I (as well as others I believe) think they did not do this because it would take away from the tail, because the engines are so close to it. The same is done with all tail-mounted engine aircraft. (CRJs, ERJs, MD88s)
 
flybyguy
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:55 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 3):
That's what $10/hour gets you...

Paying people well doesn't always fix the problem of apathy in the work force.... look at the many unionized industries (especially construction) where people used to get paid well for doing relatively little work.

Freedom to fire incompetent people will increase productivity, because if a person is fearful of loosing their job then they will do anything to keep it. Certainly this should be supplemented with financial incentives for good workers.

Just paying lazy, incompetent people more money isn't going to make them better workers, especially if those people are in the airline industry. I feel that service industries should not be unionized for the simple fact that it protects the jobs of incompetent people, while not allowing the company to recruit, retain and reward good workers.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:18 am

The guy the works in CHA that saw it happened told me that that is has already been patched up. Weather it has been flown back to ATL or MCN, I don't know.
What gets measured gets done.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:24 am

Well this will give new Delta CEO Richard Anderson something else to think about. Maybe NWA was a good training ground? That is a composite tail cone and if it not removable, it will cost a fortune. Now you know how the rampers get even. No scab patch here. Just alot of work.  banghead   hissyfit   ouch   old 
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
srbmod
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 12):

As previously noted, the bulk of the DL rampers that now handles EV are ex-EV rampers. So it's essentially same song, same verse, just the choir is wearing different robes.
 
474218
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 1):
No, you can't fly with a gaping hole in the empenage.

Since the damage is aft of the pressure bulkhead and involves only the composite faring, there is no reason why the aircraft could not be flown to a maintenance facility if none was available locally.
 
peachair
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:32 am

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 12):
Care to comment on how many incidents where DL rampers failed to notify the EV crew of damage to the aircraft and it was luck that it was discovered.

I obviously do not deny facts. You are obviously in a position where you are involved in the data gathering. You did not however list any of the data YOY june 06 vs Jun 07 (your reply just implied that there were more incidents).

Your initial note implied that the DL crew were deliberately damaging the aircraft. How many unreported a/c cat 1 damages occurred in ATL since June 1? How does this compare to the same period last year?
 
N612UA
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:48 am

Does anyone have pic of the gash after the fix?
 
a3xx900
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:35 am

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 1):
No, you can't fly with a gaping hole in the empenage.

I wonder... I think you can. Its just a damage to the outer fuselage (which looks like plywood if you ask me). Nothing that duct tape can't fix  Wink
Why is 10 afraid of 7? Because 7 8 9.
 
LASoctoberB6
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:01 am

is it a write-off?

filler
[NOT IN SERVICE] {WEStJet}
 
andrewuber
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:05 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 3):
That's what $10/hour gets you...

Some rampers make considerably less than $10 per hour. I personally start mine at $12-$14. I've always said "If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys."

In retrospect, nobody - whether they make $8 per hour or $99 per hour, means to hit an airplane and do this much damage.

D r e w
I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
ikramerica
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:16 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 15):
Freedom to fire incompetent people will increase productivity, because if a person is fearful of loosing their job then they will do anything to keep it. Certainly this should be supplemented with financial incentives for good workers.

Both things the modern unions fight against. They fight against pay for quality, and they fight against perform or perish. Neither are "fair" to the worker - read: fair to the lazy and incompetent.

In an industry based on seniority for both pay scale and who is fired/rehired first, and employment based on the qualification of "my dad was in the union", it leads to this sort of apathy, whether you are paid $10 or $80 per hour (like the dock workers in San Pedro...)

Which is not to say that there aren't same damn fine workers and well run unions. It's just not encouraged...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
AlexPorter
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:48 am

Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 23):
is it a write-off?

Definitely not - there wasn't even any airframe damage, just some damage to a tailcone. It's like getting your rear bumper damaged on your car, except that this plane can't fly passengers until it's fixed.
Last Flight: SCX701 MSP-PHX B738 8Jan2008
 
Baron52ta
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:50 pm

Quoting DL767captain (Reply 13):
is there a reason why DL decided not to paint the engines blue on these planes?

The reason for not giving blue engines to the CRJ is simply that they are above the section of the aircraft which is painted blue unlike per say the B757 or B737
 
acvitale
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:59 pm

Quoting PeachAir (Reply 20):
I obviously do not deny facts. You are obviously in a position where you are involved in the data gathering. You did not however list any of the data YOY june 06 vs Jun 07 (your reply just implied that there were more incidents).

Your initial note implied that the DL crew were deliberately damaging the aircraft. How many unreported a/c cat 1 damages occurred in ATL since June 1? How does this compare to the same period last year?

The average is that damaged aircraft have increased 300-400% since DL took over the ramp. It depends on the month comparison but M to M or Y to Y it is in the 300-400% increase range.

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 18):
As previously noted, the bulk of the DL rampers that now handles EV are ex-EV rampers. So it's essentially same song, same verse, just the choir is wearing different robes.

Actually many of the ex EV rampers are working the A and B gates on mainline. They were integrated in like everyone else. Hence I would ask what is the percentage of ex-EV rampers that are still working the EV flights?

One good thing did come of it. EV flights can now be found on all concourses and not just the old EV area which was over-congested.
 
skyguyB727
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:49 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 3):
That's what $10/hour gets you...

Do they really pay that much at EV? All of the regional airlines I worked for paid $5.00 an hour which was minimum wage at the time.
 
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vanguard737
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:46 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 3):
That's what $10/hour gets you...

 checkmark 

Try working for Air Wisconsin at SBN - where we recently had our work load doubled by adding Northwest Airlink flights to our United Express duties - without any increase in pay or staffing. Genius move! And management wonders why turnover is so high and morale is so low.

Incidents like these are inevitable - especially at my station, where it is not at all uncommon for just three agents to work three terminating flights simultaneously in the evening (this includes ramp, gate, baggage counter, and operations duties, btw)- THREE PEOPLE!! And the passengers then wonder why it takes 30 minutes for the baggage to arrive on the carousel.

And a final kicker - pay starts below $9/hr.
319 320 321 330 346 359 717 722 732 733 735 73G 738 739 744 748 752 753 763 764 772 773 788 789 781 DC9 DC10 MD80 B1900 S340 E120 E145 E170 E175 CRJ CR7 TRIM
 
747ata32
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:49 pm

RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:48 pm

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 1):
No, you can't fly with a gaping hole in the empenage.

Not entirely correct. This damage is outside of the pressured barrell. Also, it is not primairy structure or a PSE (Principal Structure Element). Being a former Structures Design Engineer at a major European airline, I know from experience that most OEM's have some allowables for damage like this in the models SRM (Strucural Repair Manual). Furthermore, if it isn't described in the SRM, the OEM might grant approval on a case by case basis. Some airlines have an Engineering department (like us) that is allowed to authorize a unpressurized ferry flight themselve.
I have no experience and/or knowledge of the CRJ aircraft, but looking at the photo's, if it is only the tail cone damaged and nothing inside, I think it''s no problem to ferry this aircraft at a low speed. It will give a fuel penalty, but that's not a real problem.
Flown: 733, 734, 73G, 738, 739, 742, 743, 744, M11, 752, 763, F100, F70, SF340, A319, A320, A321, A332, 772, 77W, D10, D
 
pilotboi
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Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:16 am

RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:06 pm

Quoting Vanguard737 (Reply 30):
Incidents like these are inevitable

I beg to differ. This was totally preventable. Just because you have three people working (which I've done before), doesn't mean to need to go running into aircraft, or even simply not use basic precautionary measures. If anything, when you have less people, you need to be more careful as there are less people to make sure everything is going smoothly. If it takes a few extra minutes to do everything that is needed to be done, then fine. But speed should always comes second after safety. Safety first, speed second, quality third.

To say this, or any accident, was "inevitable" is just nonsense.

Quoting 747ata32 (Reply 31):
Not entirely correct. This damage is outside of the pressured barrell

Yes, we know that...you are the 4th person to tell us that. It would be great if people would read some replies before making their own comments, as I see this happen a lot on here.
 
georgebush
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Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:15 am

RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:24 pm

Quoting Pilotboi (Reply 32):
To say this, or any accident, was "inevitable" is just nonsense.

I agree, but those bag carts are pretty big. If you are new to driving a tug, you would be surprised at how much clearance they really need. But yes, if they had stayed out of the safety diamond, this wouldnt have happend.


Big version: Width: 1280 Height: 960 File size: 186kb
This is what happens when your driveing too fast and coming up on a jet-bridge!


I personally think jetways should have thier own safety diamonds as well, lol.
Al Gore invented global warming.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Topic Author
Posts: 3965
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:25 am

Yeah, tugs take some getting use to. Especially the fast ones which everyone wants. Working in the bagroom I could tell you, there was nothing like getting tug 120 (which has to be the slowest tug in the entire world) and having to run alte bags from the bag room on C to a Comair flight on the north end of D. GSE would turn down the regulators to slow them down and try to avoid accidents, and at night guys would turn them right back up to max.

I also remember one time, I was loading bags on a flight at stand 45 on C and the fuel company (don't remember the name) drove their van by just as an RJ was making the turn to come up on the parking T and i blew out the side glass. All these things could be avoided if people would just follow the rules.

The van thing was funny though, we made fun of them for weeks.
What gets measured gets done.
 
pilotboi
Posts: 711
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:16 am

RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:37 am

Quoting Georgebush (Reply 33):
If you are new to driving a tug, you would be surprised at how much clearance they really need.

That doesn't make it excusable. That's what training is for.  Smile
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting SkyguyB727 (Reply 29):
Do they really pay that much at EV? All of the regional airlines I worked for paid $5.00 an hour which was minimum wage at the time.

I had to do some digging, but I found one of my old EV pay stubs form when I worked there in 2000 (June-December). Starting pay on the ramp back them was $713.50 a pay period, and when divided by the base hours per pay period (86.67 hours), that comes out to $8.23/hour. AirTran (For whom I had previously worked for) at the time was starting folks out @ $8.50, and if you worked a shift that started after 2 pm, you got a .35/hour shift differential. I was actually making more money @ EV because of overtime pay, as there were a lot more opportunities to pick up a few hours overtime than there was @ FL. There were some pay periods where I made nearly as much in overtime as I did in regular pay. But then again, you busted your tail a lot more at EV.
 
pilotboi
Posts: 711
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:16 am

RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:20 am

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 36):
you busted your tail a lot more at EV

Literally!  rotfl  We can see that from the pictures.
 
pilotboi
Posts: 711
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:16 am

RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:26 am

From James Marshall on DVA:

Quote:
I can't post on the a.net forum, but someone can let them know it HAS been flown back to ATL. I saw somone asked about that. Also, if you could appologize to the person who asked about the patch pics, I was going to get those on my down time, but she left before I could.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 7151
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RE: Ship 839AS Already Damaged!

Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:40 am

No big issue. Tape up that plane a little and fly it anywhere where they can do a little glassfibre patchwork.

But don't let those rampers get within a mile of a B787 pressurized hull.

They were lucky. They could have hit the side of the fuselage or the wing trailing edge. That would have been a lot worse.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs

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