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CM767
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CM To Europe By October 2008

Sun Sep 23, 2007 11:54 pm

Despite growing pains CM still looking to expand, this was published a few days ago in a Panamanian news paper

Link in Spanish: http://www.pa-digital.com.pa/archive/09192007/finance04.shtml

"Copa invertirá $260 millones en el 2008"

" EN EUROPA
Aunque recientemente Copa Airlines abrió cinco nuevos destinos a Norteamérica, el Caribe y Suramérica, su presidente ejecutivo manifestó que existe la posibilidad de que en octubre próximo la empresa incurcione en el mercado europeo."

After denying it a few months ago, Copa has announced that there is a possibility that they would start routes to Europe by October 2008.

Now for rumors and speculation:  

Is not defined yet and they have not decided on equipment, but rumors in the past had said that they were looking for doing it with the 787, now recent rumors are that they are looking to doing it with 777-200s. No decision has been made yet. Other rumors mention that the first European route would be Madrid (daaaaa), followed by London by 2009 and Frankfurt by 2010.

I have said in the past, that this would happen after CM would not find room to grow on the Americas, I still see the need for more destination on North America, of the top of my mind I see the need for SFO, YYZ, ORD even LAS as more desirable routes that could use the 737, this before adding another type and the complexities of an european operation.

Also we could use a flight to Belize and other destinations on the Caribbean, on this the E190 would be ideal, some destinations I would agree that have low potential and hi risk /cost, but I see the benefits of expanding on the Caribbean and become the sole provider for connecting the Caribbean to South America without the hassle of immigration into the US, and basically fast one stop service to the hole continent.

I also in the past mentioned that an expansion of PTY was needed, this has been announced and PTY will go from 22 gates to about 34, with completing date for 2009, so the european expansion before needed terminal space? , not critical we got NM and IB without it, but still PTY could use more gates right now.

The only destination that I have heard on the near future for the Americas are one in Bolivia and Trinidad & Tobago that is to be started by December of 2007.

The article also mentions that that the possibility of adding European destinations has arised because now CM has ties to Sky Team, with that said, I have to ask, would not make more sense that members of the alliance start operation to PTY, and for CM to continue their focus on expanding on the Americas?

[Edited 2007-09-23 16:56:32]
 
Summa767
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:10 am

Europe would be the next logical move by CM.
With its extensive network in the Americas, links to Europe would be very welcome.

I expect that AF/KL can add their own link, but CM would do MAD, LON and FRA as you suggest.

They would be advised to research their choice of equipment well. I would think that a 777 would be a bit too big. 767s or A330s, and later on 787/A350.
If CM are really serious, I guess we should start to hear about equipment plans pretty soon if they are to have the first European route in a year's time.

Quoting CM767 (Thread starter):
Despite growing pains CM still looking to expand..

What pains are afflicting Copa?
 
CM767
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:34 am

The only one really is lack of pilots, there have been a few cancellations and delays because of this on the past months.
 
aces727
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:56 am

CM could get a lot of pilots back, if benefits are adjusted accordingly.
 
mt99
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:48 am

Good for CM!

Although it seems it could be a risky venture. Lets not forget that CM's main goal now (as with any publicly traded company) is maximize share value, and nothing else.

How will investors look at this move? New planes, new training, new procedures may take a lot of money. I would be wondering if they are bitting more than they can chew. Canceling a flight to GUA is not a big deal due to lack of pilots - but canceling a flight to MAD sounds like much more trouble.
 
as739x
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting CM767 (Thread starter):

I'd like to see them at SFO, but the 737 doesn't have the range.The only way would be a continuation of the LAX flight.

ASSFO
 
goldorak
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:17 am

Quoting CM767 (Thread starter):
Other rumors mention that the first European route would be Madrid (daaaaa), followed by London by 2009 and Frankfurt by 2010

I can understand MAD first, but before LON and FRA, I would have bet for CDG or AMS due to connectivity with skyteam partners AF/KL
 
CM767
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:05 am

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 6):
I can understand MAD first, but before LON and FRA, I would have bet for CDG or AMS due to connectivity with skyteam partners AF/KL

There were rumors a while ago, about the intentions of KL of returning to PTY, according to this note
http://www.pa-digital.com.pa/archive/09212007/finance07.shtml the official announcement will be done on October of this year, AMS-PTY 3 times a week.

I am keeping my fingers crossed, and I hope this time it will materialize.
 
luisca
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:23 pm

The article is pretty vague, I dont get if they are planning to fly their own routes or codeshare, you could interpret Heilbron's comments as them offering connectivity to Europe through codeshares. But at least it ends the rumors and speculations and we can now confirm that something will happen in 08, either AF/KL codeshares or CM Europe flights with their own metal.
 
Pu752
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:38 pm

Just LPB or VVI in South America? ............. I remeber they wanted ASU long time ago, even before MVD start....... no intentions to start ASU then?
 
rootsair
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:22 pm

Congrats to CM. I'm very happy to see them make this move. However I think they will wait more than 2008 to go to Europe. For exampl,e its been like 2 years AF is supposed to start SJO service and it still isn't the case... so lets wait and see

Regards BM
 airplane  wave 
 
CM767
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:21 pm

Quoting PU752 (Reply 9):
Just LPB or VVI in South America?

I have only heard intention to start VVI.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 8):
The article is pretty vague, I dont get if they are planning to fly their own routes or codeshare, you could interpret Heilbron's comments as them offering connectivity to Europe through codeshares.

Thats the way I see it too, but I have heard from someone that knows someone that ..... ( Yes I now ) , that this will be done with CM´s metal. From the article is clear that is not firm, but they are working on plans for this, I will take this with a few pounds of salt, and I insist that there are other opportunities with far lower risks than adding european destinations ( if this is true).

On the other hand with raising congestion on Newark and the opportunity of capturing even more Latin market CO, could see an opportunity on developing connections to Europe from PTY instead of seeing it like competition for their own hubs.
 
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yellowtail
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:40 pm

Quoting CM767 (Thread starter):
Also we could use a flight to Belize and other destinations on the Caribbean, on this the E190 would be ideal, some destinations I would agree that have low potential and hi risk /cost, but I see the benefits of expanding on the Caribbean and become the sole provider for connecting the Caribbean to South America without the hassle of immigration into the US, and basically fast one stop service to the hole continent.

Couldn't have said this better myself.
 
SJOtoLIR
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:58 pm

Great news for CM...



.

Quoting AS739X (Reply 5):
I'd like to see them at SFO, but the 737 doesn't have the range.The only way would be a continuation of the LAX flight.

PTY-SFO is 3032 nm.
CM is currently operating the following routes with 73G:
PTY-MVD: 3028 nm
PTY-GIG: 3216 nm
PTY-GRU: 3283 nm



.

Quoting PU752 (Reply 9):
Just LPB or VVI in South America?

LPB could have altitude restrictions for a nonstop LPB-PTY.
Just as an illustrative reference, AA operates a triangular MIA-LPB-VVI-MIA with 757.
 
as739x
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 13):

What are headwinds like? Does GIG/GRU have the aweful ATC issue's SFO have? Just some thoughts......

*Let me re-phrase! PTY-SFO would be pushing the limit on the 737 and leave few options when there is weather.

ASSFO
 
luisca
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:21 am

Quoting Aces727 (Reply 3):
CM could get a lot of pilots back, if benefits are adjusted accordingly.

Pilots are demanding a very large increase. The contract negotiations are scheduled to go on for another 2 weeks, but from what I heard 20 more pilots resigned recently. 70 pilots had already resigned earlier in the year.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 1):
What pains are afflicting Copa?

Lack of pilots, on time performance has tumbled, 2 new airplanes are parked in the ground at PTY because nobody can fly them. Flight cancellations are up, Tocumen is at Max capacity already and T-2 is in design stages only. When I was there 2 weeks ago I saw 3 go arounds while I was waiting to board. Usually the go arounds were caused by aircraft not being able to vacate the runway because the taxiways were filled with Aircraft waiting for a gate. It was very very busy, the only quite period in PTY is 6-8 am and 2-4 pm. When CM de-peaked PTY they might have overestimated the airports ability to cope with it, there are only 2 exits for 3R and that causes a lot of traffic jams.

Quoting PU752 (Reply 9):
Just LPB or VVI in South America? ............. I remeber they wanted ASU long time ago, even before MVD start....... no intentions to start ASU then?

The Paraguayan AAC lobbied for this flight, but at the same time from what I heard that CM determined that it would be too expensive to operate there and they opted for MVD. Also AA got sued by the Paraguayan government and I think that scared everybody.

VVI will be launched next year along with YYZ from what I have heard. Other possibilities are CUR, MBJ, ORD.

Also the big IF is whether or not the rumors of CM starting a hub at GUA turn out to be true, that would allow them to serve SEA, SFO, YVR.

Lets wait and see what happens; the pilot contract needs to be worked out before anything becomes firm.
 
2travel2know
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:34 am

Quoting AS739X (Reply 5):
I'd like to see them at SFO, but the 737 doesn't have the range.The only way would be a continuation of the LAX flight.

CM B737-700 have the range for PTY-SFO, maybe there'll be some westbound weight restrictions.

Quoting CM767 (Reply 11):
I have only heard intention to start VVI.



Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 13):
LPB could have altitude restrictions for a nonstop LPB-PTY.

If CM is to fly to Bolivia, it'll be only to VVI, none of CM aircraft is O.K. to operate in LPB, no matter how they fly in-out there, and CM @ CBB will take years to happen.

Quoting AS739X (Reply 14):
*Let me re-phrase! PTY-SFO would be pushing the limit on the 737 and leave few options when there is weather.

SJC, SMF, OAK, LAS, RNO - Aren't those aren't SFO alternate airports when SFO is closed?

If CM really wants to fly to MAD and other non SkyTeam European airports, the idea of CM flying B737 to MAD might not work.
CM B737-800 should make it via BDA (on paper) but this service will prove to be totally unattractive.
CM could get those B737-700ER w/2 extra fuel tanks and fly them to MAD with 60+ C/Y passengers, but with such an aircraft, if CM isn't going to fly PTY-MAD at least thrice daily, better don't do it. To make the MAD route work, CM should offer at least 180 seats total per flight (or day if B737-700), however, IMHO LIS could work with daily B737-700ER.
 
Pu752
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:37 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 13):
PTY-SFO is 3032 nm.
CM is currently operating the following routes with 73G:
PTY-MVD: 3028 nm
PTY-GIG: 3216 nm
PTY-GRU: 3283 nm

PTY-MVD is still the longest 737 route.....

PTY-MVD 2945 (NM)
PTY-EZE 2875 (NM)
PTY-GIG 2863 (NM)
PTY-GRU 2747 (NM)

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 13):
LPB could have altitude restrictions for a nonstop LPB-PTY.
Just as an illustrative reference, AA operates a triangular MIA-LPB-VVI-MIA with 757.

I dont think a 737 can have any kind of restrictions taking off at a 13,000ft runway at El Alto......so I dont see the problem there, and AA operates as a triangular not due to restrictions just doesnt make sense flying both destinations a part.....
 
luisca
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting PU752 (Reply 17):
I dont think a 737 can have any kind of restrictions taking off at a 13,000ft runway at El Alto......so I dont see the problem there, and AA operates as a triangular not due to restrictions just doesnt make sense flying both destinations a part.....

They would have to get certified for hight altitude, there are some restrictions for aircraft flying into LPB.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 16):
M B737-800 should make it via BDA (on paper) but this service will prove to be totally unattractive.
CM could get those B737-700ER w/2 extra fuel tanks and fly them to MAD with 60+ C/Y passengers, but with such an aircraft, if CM isn't going to fly PTY-MAD at least thrice daily, better don't do it. To make the MAD route work, CM should offer at least 180 seats total per flight (or day if B737-700), however, IMHO LIS could work with daily B737-700ER.

That is crazy, the 700ER is designed for premium operations only. From my friends at CM (yeah I know friend of a friend heard from his wife's sister that a friend had overheard.......) that they have already decided on an aircraft, it will be new, no used 767s. No idea whether it is Boeing or Airbus and it will be leased. His guess was 772ER.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:13 am

Would love to see MSY regain nonstop Panama service. CM would be extremely welcome (by us anyways) considering that CO basically runs a Panama-shuttle from this b!tch sometimes.
 
CM767
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:16 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 18):
From my friends at CM (yeah I know friend of a friend heard from his wife's sister that a friend had overheard.......) that they have already decided on an aircraft, it will be new, no used 767s. No idea whether it is Boeing or Airbus and it will be leased. His guess was 772ER.

I heard the same, it will be new metal, and my username is obsolete  . Months ago it was with a 787 but now the rumor-mill says that is a 772 , why a 772?, and why not a 787?, this does not fit CM´s ways of lets start small, open the route, then add multiple frequencies. The only thing that comes to mind is, that for this to work they will need the lowest operating cost to offer competitive pricing.

There are going to be major competition from direct flights to Europe and PTY no matter how fast the connection will be, will inconvenience those choosing to transit trough PTY, I now that CM could post an advantage to us in Central America, but from South America I do not see a reason for choosing it, over a direct flight; unless the price is attractive. I believe that the prices are going to be attractive and for that the lowest cost will be needed, that rules out any 737, even with 4 stops, it would not be profitable and on top unattractive vs direct flights.

After all that if the reason for a bigger plane is lower operating cost per seat, won't a 787 compare on operating costs with a 772ER?, that besides far lower acquisition costs?

[Edited 2007-09-24 18:21:32]
 
mt99
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:41 am

Quoting CM767 (Reply 20):
but from South America I do not see a reason for choosing it, over a direct flight; unless the price is attractive.

Here is where i see the biggest issue. I would tend to think that a flight to Europe from C.A. would be mostly O/D (or connections to Central America only). But then again, you have IB flying pretty much everywhere that counts within Central America and they have connecting flight in MAD to all of Europe - CM would not have that - Unless of course it flew to Germany where pax could connect to LH flights.
 
2travel2know
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:55 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 18):
That is crazy, the 700ER is designed for premium operations only.

So there's no premium passenger traffic between PTY and MAD? PTY-Europe premium traffic is a niche where CM could make some money with the B737-700, add a larger aircraft and lots of economy seats and then CM will be competing with all those European airlines flying between CM destinations and Europe or all the traffic that goes via MIA, ATL, IAH and EWR..
On a B737-700ER, 32C passengers will pay the PTY-MAD operation and the other 36Y could be the gravy.

What I want to see CM fly PTY - MAD is a B747-400 Combi so to get some extra cargo revenue.
 
luisca
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting CM767 (Reply 20):

After all that if the reason for a bigger plane is lower operating cost per seat, won't a 787 compare on operating costs with a 772ER?, that besides far lower acquisition costs?

Al contrario, the 777 probably has a lower acquisition cost, and it is available fairly soon. The 787 is in such high demand that it is impossible to get and airlines that want it sooner than 2013 are paying a premium over it. I could eventually see the 787 replacing the 777 if CM were to decide to purchase their own widebodies. What I do see if that if PTY-MAD is to operate daily the widebody plane could be used during down time to operate PTY-BOG, PTY-SJO, PTY-MEX to increase capacity on slot constrained routes and that way improve aircraft utilization. Avianca does it with their 767s and it works for them.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 19):
Would love to see MSY regain nonstop Panama service. CM would be extremely welcome (by us anyways) considering that CO basically runs a Panama-shuttle from this b!tch sometimes.

When did MSY have PTY flight? was it in the Air Panama days?

Quoting CM767 (Reply 20):
There are going to be major competition from direct flights to Europe and PTY no matter how fast the connection will be, will inconvenience those choosing to transit trough PTY, I now that CM could post an advantage to us in Central America, but from South America I do not see a reason for choosing it, over a direct flight; unless the price is attractive.

IB flights in CA are always packed, CM would add some much needed capacity to the market. It could also attract some traffic from MED, CLO, BAQ, CTG, and Central American cities that dont have IB service like SAP, MGA, TGU.

I do think that MAD will work, and if FRA and LON are added in the future it will open up a lot of cities in Central and South America to Europe, I mean I would hate having to transit in MAD.
 
2travel2know
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:41 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 23):
When did MSY have PTY flight? was it in the Air Panama days?

Neither Air Panama nor COPA flew to MSY. MSY-PTY was flown by Braniff and later Eastern. CO never flew it either. Eastern's MSY-PTY was dropped with the lame excuse that the PTY flight was arriving when the F.I.S. was overcrowded.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 21):
CM would not have that - Unless of course it flew to Germany where pax could connect to LH flights.

As far as I know, Air Europa is an SkyTeam airline like CM, is an Spanish airline and does have some kind of presence in MAD. If CM flies to MAD, something will be done with Air Europa regarding connections at MAD.
 
mt99
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:52 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 24):
If CM flies to MAD, something will be done with Air Europa regarding connections at MAD.

Air Europa's website mentions only 7 destinations in Europe (not counting Spain).

Quoting Luisca (Reply 23):

IB flights in CA are always packed, CM would add some much needed capacity to the market. It could also attract some traffic from MED, CLO, BAQ, CTG, and Central American cities that dont have IB service like SAP, MGA, TGU.

That is only true IF there are no connecting passengers. What is the O/D to connecting ratio for IB flights to Central America?
 
mt99
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:07 am

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 21):
CM would not have that - Unless of course it flew to Germany where pax could connect to LH flights.

Oops!.. I meant to say CDG and Air France- CM would have to go to a SkyTeam Hub - not a Star Alliance hub...

Interesting article regarding Central America...

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ica-flight-to-central-america.html
 
Kohflot
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:36 am

I wonder.. if they order 4-5 772s for delivery late next year, but only need 2 for a year for MAD, could they lease the others to CO for a year or two until more CO 787s arrive? 2 777s could be used for DXB or another Asia route.. or free up B762s. It helps CO and it's money in the pocket for CM until they need their airplanes back.
 
2travel2know
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:37 am

Boeing's B767 production line is supposedly still open, my question is, if CM was to order B767 rightnow, when would those B767 be available?? 8-10 weeks??
But I don't think the B767-400 could have the range for MAD-PTY.
 
N77014
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:06 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 15):
Also the big IF is whether or not the rumors of CM starting a hub at GUA turn out to be true, that would allow them to serve SEA, SFO, YVR.

Lets wait and see what happens; the pilot contract needs to be worked out before anything becomes firm.

Personally I feel another central american hub won't help efficiencies as it would cannibalize the PTY hub.

Why not open up a hub in SDQ; does the D.R. no longer have a national airline that could carry flagship routes to other caribbean markets as well as MIA, ATL, JFK, SJU, YYZ?
 
luisca
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:34 am

Quoting N77014 (Reply 29):

Why not open up a hub in SDQ; does the D.R. no longer have a national airline that could carry flagship routes to other caribbean markets as well as MIA, ATL, JFK, SJU, YYZ?

SDQ is low yeilding and AA has a chokehold on it, besides it is set to become an AA focus city.
 
2travel2know
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:34 am

Quoting N77014 (Reply 29):
Why not open up a hub in SDQ; does the D.R. no longer have a national airline that could carry flagship routes to other Caribbean markets as well as MIA, ATL, JFK, SJU, YYZ?

That sounds very interesting but again, any CM hub outside PTY (be P5 BOG or MDE, GUA, MGA, SDQ..) might canibalise CM main hub.
Also any Caribbean stop on CM PTY-Europe flights would make CM product less attractive, even if a CM stop in SDQ, STI, SCU or SXM enroute to MAD might be very, very profitable.

Now, If you want to talk Caribbean, how about CM making a P5 of JM??
 
N77014
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:44 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 30):
SDQ is low yeilding and AA has a chokehold on it, besides it is set to become an AA focus city.

By which rationale are you referring to? Because if we use the rationale of all caribbean and central american markets; economies based on agriculture, exports of low value products (no computers, computer chips, planes or autos), and a great disparity between rich and poor with small middle classes, then ALL these markets should be low yeilding.
 
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yellowtail
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:49 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 31):
Now, If you want to talk Caribbean, how about CM making a P5 of JM??

This is a fabulous idea...somehow I doubt the Government of Jamaica would have enough pride to let this happen.

But maybe BWIA/Caribbean Airlines....might work even better....
 
luisca
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:45 am

Quoting N77014 (Reply 32):
By which rationale are you referring to? Because if we use the rationale of all caribbean and central american markets; economies based on agriculture, exports of low value products (no computers, computer chips, planes or autos), and a great disparity between rich and poor with small middle classes, then ALL these markets should be low yeilding.

First of all chill down and get a clue of what I am talking about, low yielding has nothing to do with the economy of the country, it has too do with how much money you can get away with charging for a ticket. One of AAs highest yielding flights is MIA-PAP, the poorest country in the western hemisphere. While JFK-Western Europe can be very low yielding.

Next time educate yourself before you make ridiculous claims.

I'm referring to the fact that CM would not be able to charge more than 200 to 300 on most North America-SDQ flight since their is sooo much capacity going to this market. Meanwhile CM can charge sometimes thousands of dollars on flights to Central America. My dads business has paid 1500 dollars for tickets to Honduras and he once paid 2200 for a ticket to PAP.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:39 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 23):
When did MSY have PTY flight? was it in the Air Panama days?

No.
It's definitely been a minute, but Braniff used to fly that route, and I'm pretty sure Eastern did too. Not sure about Pan Am-- I don't think they did, but I'm not entirely sure either.
 
luisca
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:17 am

Looks like CM is on a PR blitz, yesterday two articles in La Prensa about becoming a pilot for Copa and how great of a company they are. This just a week after the Pilots union slammed CM in the same news paper for the low pay and their refusal to increase wages.
 
2travel2know
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RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:25 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 36):
This just a week after the Pilots union slammed CM in the same news paper for the low pay and their refusal to increase wages.

Wouldn't CM pilots be happy with a moderate yearly raise and plenty of CM stock?
 
luisca
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Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:37 am

RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:04 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 37):

Wouldn't CM pilots be happy with a moderate yearly raise and plenty of CM stock?

I make more money as a flight instructor here in florida than if I were to move my a$$ back to Panama and work for CM. What incentive do I have to go to CM? I want cold hard cash, and that is exactly how most people feel.
 
787kq
Posts: 380
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:52 am

RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:19 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 1):
I expect that AF/KL can add their own link, but CM would do MAD, LON and FRA as you suggest.

The other airlines take what will be the lucrative routes between the hubs and leave the riskier non hub flying to Copa? If Copa doesn't get any of the hub flights, then shame on them. They would be fools.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 15):
When I was there 2 weeks ago I saw 3 go arounds while I was waiting to board. Usually the go arounds were caused by aircraft not being able to vacate the runway because the taxiways were filled with Aircraft waiting for a gate. It was very very busy, the only quite period in PTY is 6-8 am and 2-4 pm. When CM de-peaked PTY they might have overestimated the airports ability to cope with it, there are only 2 exits for 3R and that causes a lot of traffic jams.

Doesn't PTY have two runways? Evevn with only one runway and few exits I am surprised that this could happen. If this is the case, it is easy to fix and I would be surprised if not addressed right away.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 28):
Boeing's B767 production line is supposedly still open, my question is, if CM was to order B767 rightnow, when would those B767 be available?? 8-10 weeks??
But I don't think the B767-400 could have the range for MAD-PTY.

Who has the answer?
 
CM767
Topic Author
Posts: 464
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:58 pm

RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:45 am

Quoting 787KQ (Reply 39):
The other airlines take what will be the lucrative routes between the hubs and leave the riskier non hub flying to Copa? If Copa doesn't get any of the hub flights, then shame on them. They would be fools.

Lets see what airline is an associate member, and probably is salivating to be part of the team ... a risk yes, but will all the support of Sky Team, you would not go ahead with it?. by the way even without Sky Team MAD could be the route to Europe from PTY with highest chance of success. We already had two operators on it and now we are back to one, I would say that CM has a good opportunity there, are there other opportunities to growth with less risk yes?, Is the right time to add it?, probably no, still MAD is good opportunity to propel CM to the big leagues.
 
luisca
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:37 am

RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:49 am

Quoting 787KQ (Reply 39):
Who has the answer?

767-400ER still air range is approximately 5700 NM, in paper enough for PTY-MAD but this aircraft would make no sense in the CM fleet.

Quoting CM767 (Reply 40):

Lets see what airline is an associate member, and probably is salivating to be part of the team ... a risk yes, but will all the support of Sky Team, you would not go ahead with it?. by the way even without Sky Team MAD could be the route to Europe from PTY with highest chance of success. We already had two operators on it and now we are back to one, I would say that CM has a good opportunity there, are there other opportunities to growth with less risk yes?, Is the right time to add it?, probably no, still MAD is good opportunity to propel CM to the big leagues.

We already know that KL will fly PTY-AMS. Obviously MAD is a must have for any Latin Airline flying to Europe; the reasons for LON and FRA are that there is almost no competition. If the Europe flights prove to be a success CM could eventually start PTY-CDG with ongoing connections operated by AF.
 
CM767
Topic Author
Posts: 464
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:58 pm

RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:58 am

Quoting 787KQ (Reply 39):
Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 28):
Boeing's B767 production line is supposedly still open, my question is, if CM was to order B767 right now, when would those B767 be available?? 8-10 weeks??
But I don't think the B767-400 could have the range for MAD-PTY.

Who has the answer?

My guess is, why would an airline chose a 767 when a Superior product is available and at a comparable price? the only airlines that have added 767s after the launch of 787 have done it to add their existing fleets, the only problem with the 787 is, when it will be available for CM.

Without a doubt I will chose a 787 over a 767, to fill the gap I will go ahead and lease a 767 until the 787 arrives, but I will not purchase a 767. Why a 772?, thats beyond me, but maybe and just maybe, the seat cost turned lower that 763 or 764, and they see an opportunity to fill all those seats.
 
CM767
Topic Author
Posts: 464
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:58 pm

RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:59 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 41):

767-400ER still air range is approximately 5700 NM, in paper enough for PTY-MAD but this aircraft would make no sense in the CM fleet.

Why not?
 
luisca
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:37 am

RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:16 am

Quoting CM767 (Reply 43):
Quoting Luisca (Reply 41):
767-400ER still air range is approximately 5700 NM, in paper enough for PTY-MAD but this aircraft would make no sense in the CM fleet.
Why not?

Resale value is too low, CO and DL will juice the 764 all the way to retirement because there is nobody out there that would buy this plane, same thing happened with DL and the L1011 and even that airplane had more customers out there. The 764 is not a bad airplane dont get me wrong, it just does not work in any other airline that has the option of purchasing the far more superior A330. IF DL and CO had not had a large 767 fleet already they too would have gone with the A330.

Which brings me to another point, who said that CM has to buy Boeing, others have proven over an over that fleet commonality is over rated and that if the fleet is large enough you can combine two different aircraft. Maybe CM could get A330s; but still my money is on a Boeing, 777 with 787 later on.
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:14 pm

Quoting Luisca (Reply 38):
I make more money as a flight instructor here in florida than if I were to move my a$$ back to Panama and work for CM. What incentive do I have to go to CM? I want cold hard cash, and that is exactly how most people feel.

Yes, one could make more money as a flight instructor in Florida than as a CM pilot en Panamá. But then, How does compare the cost of living in Florida with the cost of living in Panama (where I suppose almost all CM pilots have their family and friends)?

And to go back to the topic, I would think that if CM Panamanian owners really want it and if they could get it, it'll be a leased B787 flying PTY-MAD-PTY next October (so people say), not another aircraft.
 knockout 
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 3237
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:42 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 15):
Other possibilities are CUR, MBJ, ORD.

Would CM operate to both KIN and MBJ from PTY?



.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 31):
Also any Caribbean stop on CM PTY-Europe flights would make CM product less attractive

Absolutely. Sky Team has considered the long-hauls AMS-PTY on KL and CDG-SJO on AF. An eventual service to Europe with CM shall warrant a similar level of service meaning nonstops in wide-body planes.
Sky Team by means of AF/KL looks good positioned in Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela and the Caribbean. Having said that, the feeding traffic for CM towards Europe would mainly come from the isthmus. It also should be noted that some of these feeding destinations are not currently operating as nonstop from PTY, as it has been discussed in the Central American thread. This fact can really justify even more a direct PTY-Europe.
As it has been pointed out, it makes sense that CM would fly to an affordable airport in Europe where connections will be available on Sky Team network and MAD looks as a strong candidate. Air Europa (IATA code:UX) has recently become a Sky Team associate member and they could certainly warrant immediately operations on behalf of CM from MAD. By the way, UX has started operations to some Latin American points and it would be interesting to look forward if UX pretends to extend services in the region served by CM.
On the other hand, IB is offering PTY-MAD and then the product given for CM to Europe looks better considering nonstops. Just a personal believe...
 
N77014
Posts: 812
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:16 pm

RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:00 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 34):
First of all chill down and get a clue of what I am talking about, low yielding has nothing to do with the economy of the country, it has too do with how much money you can get away with charging for a ticket. One of AAs highest yielding flights is MIA-PAP, the poorest country in the western hemisphere. While JFK-Western Europe can be very low yielding.

They get away with it in PAP due to risk pricing built in...the chaotic government, security, and infrastructure situation is such that other operators shy away from there, and AA can pretty much charge what they want knowing people will pay almost anything to get out of there. Not unlike Lagos or Baghdad.

Quoting Luisca (Reply 34):
I'm referring to the fact that CM would not be able to charge more than 200 to 300 on most North America-SDQ flight since their is sooo much capacity going to this market. Meanwhile CM can charge sometimes thousands of dollars on flights to Central America. My dads business has paid 1500 dollars for tickets to Honduras and he once paid 2200 for a ticket to PAP.

I hope you are not comparing walk up to a leisure fare bought months in advance. But, the essence of my point is could there be a market for a quality caribbean hub operation that allows travelers to not have to backtrack through MIA?
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:29 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 46):
Air Europa (IATA code:UX) has recently become a Sky Team associate member and they could certainly warrant immediately operations on behalf of CM from MAD.

Air Europa only has 7 Destination in Europe (not counting within Spain). It doest sound to appealing.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 46):
On the other hand, IB is offering PTY-MAD and then the product given for CM to Europe looks better considering nonstops. Just a personal believe...

But - IB can take you all over Europe.. CM cant
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: CM To Europe By October 2008

Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:57 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 13):
Quoting AS739X (Reply 5):
I'd like to see them at SFO, but the 737 doesn't have the range.The only way would be a continuation of the LAX flight.

PTY-SFO is 3032 nm.
CM is currently operating the following routes with 73G:
PTY-MVD: 3028 nm
PTY-GIG: 3216 nm
PTY-GRU: 3283 nm

Suggest you check the source of your mileages as they are much too high. According to Great Circle Mapper:

PTY-SFO 2885 nm
PTY-MVD 2941 nm
PTY-GIG 2855 nm
PTY-GRU 2741 nm

However, your point is valid. If CM can operate PTY-MVD nonstop (and EZE which is 2879 nm) there's no reason why PTY-SFO shouldn't be feasible.

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