LIPZ
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CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:53 am

I am just wondering whether someone knows something about CO's int'l expansion plans for 2008, especially in Europe. What new routes do you expect will be announced in the upcoming months? I would very much like to see EWR-VIE happening one day.
 
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STT757
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:06 am

We will probably hear something on or about October 11th, the FAA has new rules about when airlines at EWR and JFK can post their Summer schedules and they have set the date of October 11th as the date.

CO will fly to Vienna, we might have to wait for the 787s that start arriving in 2009. This Summer I'm expecting almost all new International flying from EWR to be 757-200s, Vienna is out of the range of CO's 757-200s from EWR.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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calpsafltskeds
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Mon Sep 24, 2007 8:52 am

CO has no wide bodies on order until the 787s arrive in 2009. In 2008 there are 738 and 739ER aircraft coming in, but there are 10 confirmed 735 aircraft leaving the fleet between 10/07 and 11/08. CO was also negotiating with anohter carrier to buy another 5 735 aircraft.

CO states its 2008 capacity growth on mainline aircraft will be in the 3-4% range.
Maybe someone knows the 738 and 739ER delivery schedule for 2008, but it looks like limited aircraft will be available for international expansion, all with 752 aircraft released from domestic service IF more 738 and 739ER aircraft are delivered than 735 aircraft leaving. There are about ten 752 aircraft flying domestically that could be moved to EWR-Europe service if replacement aircraft are delivered.

The only hope for a a route longer than EWR-TXL would be if CO adds two 752 roundtrips to release one 767 (or 777) operation on routes like LGW, CDG, AMS, FRA, remove some positioning flights on the 762 between EWR and IAH or 753s become available from TZ.

CO has already announced CLE-CDG for 2008.

[Edited 2007-09-24 01:53:24]
 
Fly764
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:51 am

There has been a few rumours lately, and I repeat rumours around house that four new routes will be announced out of EWR.My wish list would be Lyon, Nice, Prauge, Helsinki. I guess time will tell though.
 
TWFirst
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:36 am

PRG and HEL would be great. MUC too.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
klwright69
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:25 am

What about more cities in Spain? That has certainly been on the radar screen
 
Fly764
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:17 am

I don't know about more cities in Spain, but I wouldn't be surprised if we increased frequency to BCN, that route does really well for us.
 
B747forever
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:19 am

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 4):
PRG and HEL would be great. MUC too.

Can COs 757s do the whole way to HEL.???
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:42 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 7):
Can COs 757s do the whole way to HEL.???

Yes, just as AY's can do HEL-JFK.
You can't cure stupid
 
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STT757
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:43 am

Quoting FLY764 (Reply 6):
I don't know about more cities in Spain, but I wouldn't be surprised if we increased frequency to BCN, that route does really well for us.

My Wife and I flew EWR-BCN-EWR last November for our Honeymoon and both flights were packed 100%.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:45 am

My wishlist:

SHOW IAH SOME LOVE!!!
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
B747forever
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:57 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 8):
Yes, just as AY's can do HEL-JFK.

But AY uses the MD11s.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:05 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 11):
But AY uses the MD11s.

Not all the time. Yes, it is scheduled for an MD-11. But charters and equipment changes have brought the AY 757 to JFK.
You can't cure stupid
 
B747forever
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 12):
Not all the time. Yes, it is scheduled for an MD-11. But charters and equipment changes have brought the AY 757 to JFK.

Okey, but it is usual the MD11s. Wonder if CO will try this service. How is the load on AYs flight from/to JFK???
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:13 am

DTW-FRA is longer than EWR-HEL, so it is feasible.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
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teme82
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 7):
Can COs 757s do the whole way to HEL



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 8):
Yes, just as AY's can do HEL-JFK.



Quoting B747forever (Reply 11):
But AY uses the MD11s.



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 12):
But charters and equipment changes have brought the AY 757 to JFK.

AY has used at least two times it's 757-200 to fly JFK since one of the MD-11 was broken. AY does charters to BOS via ARN. So I would say that EWR-HEL is ok for 757. AY uses MD-11 because the cargo is good.  Smile
Flying high and low
 
B747forever
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting Teme82 (Reply 15):
AY uses MD-11 because the cargo is good.

Okey so they dont use the MD11s for the passenger demand. What is the load then???
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
upperdeckfan
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:33 am

Does IAH-MAD or IAH-BCN have a chance when the 787 arrives?
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
DSH8, CS1,CS3
 
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teme82
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 16):
What is the load then

I don't recall the correct numbers but I think it's around 60% to 75% and it's seasoal. More passangers in the summer time.
Flying high and low
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:36 am

Quoting Ushermittwoch (Reply 14):
DTW-FRA is longer than EWR-HEL, so it is feasible.

Though it is indeed feasible, that's not exactly the most sound justification-- as NW utilizes longer ranged 752s than does CO, despite the latter's higher power.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
DiscoverCSG
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting TWFirst (Reply 4):
PRG and HEL would be great.

Purgatory and hell?
 
by738
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:42 am

Wonder what the CO Scottish routes will consist of next summer what with EDI having DL to JFK.
Previously there has almost been double daily to GLA and EDI
 
ScottishLaddie
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:47 am

Quoting BY738 (Reply 21):
Wonder what the CO Scottish routes will consist of next summer what with EDI having DL to JFK.
Previously there has almost been double daily to GLA and EDI

EDI on sale 2x daily B752 as this summer, GLA on sale daily B752 down from 11x weekly this summer. Talk around work here of a B762 on the first EDI flight, also talk on this website of just a single B764 to EDI with the second flight dropped. Things won't be finalised yet but that's what's on sale for the time being.
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:03 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 10):
My wishlist:

SHOW IAH SOME LOVE!!!

IAH......where is that?  cheeky   sarcastic 

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:06 am

Quoting Thomasphoto60 (Reply 23):
IAH......where is that?

Its in the same state as DFW, other than that im not sure.  Silly
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
wingnut767
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:17 am

Just a little sidenote on CAL. They are running an on time rate of 89.9 % MTD. Our DOT on-time for the past week was 93.7 percent, with every day over 90 percent.

So back to the post. Please give us some Latin America and Caribbean flights here in MCO. Please
Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
SpdBrdConcorde
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 10):
SHOW IAH SOME LOVE!!!

IAH is currently getting a lot of Latin Love!!!

Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 20):


Quoting TWFirst,reply=4:

PRG and HEL

Purgatory and hell?


LOL...
 
by738
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting ScottishLaddie (Reply 22):
Talk around work here of a B762 on the first EDI flight, also talk on this website of just a single B764 to EDI

Cant see either with no spare widebody frames, unless something gets dropped, which in light of expansion plans doesnt seem likely. I think DL JFK will put paid to any changes other than reduction from CO at EDI. Time will tell.
 
ScottishLaddie
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:27 am

Quoting BY738 (Reply 27):
Cant see either with no spare widebody frames, unless something gets dropped, which in light of expansion plans doesnt seem likely. I think DL JFK will put paid to any changes other than reduction from CO at EDI. Time will tell.

It would require some re-shuffling. CO aren't expecting DL to have a particuarly big effect on them next summer. A single daily B764 would be a big drop in capacity overall, a B762 on the first flight would also represent a very small drop. However, both scenarios would represent a much needed increase in Bizfirst seats, although a single B764 probably not enough for it to be worthwhile, plus the drop in Y seats would be too great.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:27 am

Quoting SpdBrdConcorde (Reply 26):
IAH is currently getting a lot of Latin Love!!!

It would be nice to see some Asian/Europe love too!!!
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD BRING BACK THE PAYWALL!!!!
 
747fan
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:01 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 29):
It would be nice to see some Asian/Europe love too!!!

Well all of that love obviously goes to EWR!  Smile I will add this: one of CO's most profitable flights, if not the most profitable, is IAH-NRT. IAH-LGW and IAH-CDG are also pretty strong performers. IAH-NRT fares are notably more expensive than EWR-NRT, according to CO's website; I also checked the IAH-NRT and EWR-NRT seatmaps for a few days and the IAH flight (in and outbound) was completely full or almost full on all of those days. By comparison, EWR was probably no more than about 80-85% full on those days. Also keep in mind that IAH has over 750 daily departures on CO and is the site of CO's corporate headquarters. EWR has closer to about 450. So Houston does get at least some love. However all I except in terms of int'l. expansion out of IAH is more Latin America routes, maybe 1 or 2 new Carribean routes. EWR will get PVG if accepted, in addition to any other Euro routes CO announces (maybe VIE, HEL, PRG, LYS, VCE).
 
SpdBrdConcorde
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:55 am

I am hoping that CO would get some more widebodies like 762s or 2 more 772s and start SYD or MEL from IAH (via HNL)..  duck 
 
ikramerica
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:06 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
This Summer I'm expecting almost all new International flying from EWR to be 757-200s, Vienna is out of the range of CO's 757-200s from EWR.

NCE is one being tossed about. MUC, PRG or VIE might be too far, but it's on the cusp. Now that the whole fleet has winglets and avod (removing the heavy AV closet), I wonder if those marginal routes are ones they would risk even though they know they would have to fuel stop for any strong winds or weather?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
nuggetsyl
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:39 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 32):

NCE is one being tossed about. MUC, PRG or VIE might be too far, but it's on the cusp. Now that the whole fleet has winglets and avod (removing the heavy AV closet), I wonder if those marginal routes are ones they would risk even though they know they would have to fuel stop for any strong winds or weather?

I have to total agree that muc prg and vie are to far. I know prg is 100 NM farther then txl so i just cant see cal going to the next level of pushing the 757. The only reason why i think finland is possable is because the winds are not as bad that far north.
 
iahcsr
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:23 pm

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 2):
IF more 738 and 739ER aircraft are delivered than 735 aircraft leaving. There are about ten 752 aircraft flying domestically that could be moved to EWR-Europe service if replacement aircraft are delivered.

There are 33 new 738/9 for '08. 10-15 735 exit. 41 total 752s, 25-27 daily TAtl. departures.
787 delivery schedule '09-13 is 3/5/6/6/5 with 35 options.
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
Pbb152
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:52 pm

Quoting IAHcsr (Reply 34):
There are 33 new 738/9 for '08. 10-15 735 exit. 41 total 752s, 25-27 daily TAtl. departures.
787 delivery schedule '09-13 is 3/5/6/6/5 with 35 options.

It is 35 options for the 787 now? I thought they only had 20 or so options. This would coincide with the rumors that CO plans to take much more than the 25 787's they currently have on order as I can't recall them not converting outstanding options into firm orders for any aircraft they've recently had on order. I would think it would take an MD-11ish type of performance issue for them note to take all 60 (and possibly more down the road).
 
gkirk
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:10 pm

Quoting ScottishLaddie (Reply 28):
Quoting BY738 (Reply 27):
Cant see either with no spare widebody frames, unless something gets dropped, which in light of expansion plans doesnt seem likely. I think DL JFK will put paid to any changes other than reduction from CO at EDI. Time will tell.

It would require some re-shuffling. CO aren't expecting DL to have a particuarly big effect on them next summer. A single daily B764 would be a big drop in capacity overall, a B762 on the first flight would also represent a very small drop. However, both scenarios would represent a much needed increase in Bizfirst seats, although a single B764 probably not enough for it to be worthwhile, plus the drop in Y seats would be too great.

I would say MAN would be much more likely to get the 762 or 764 back before EDI.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
ScottishLaddie
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 36):
I would say MAN would be much more likely to get the 762 or 764 back before EDI.

EDI is higher yielding than MAN, J demand is greater from EDI and the need for a B767 is greater in that regard.
 
iahflyer
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:53 pm

Quoting SpdBrdConcorde (Reply 31):
start SYD or MEL from IAH (via HNL).. duck

Needs to be non-stop from IAH or via AKL. HNL is just to far out of the way.
Little airports with the big jets are the best!! Floyd
 
tsnamm
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:54 pm

Quoting ScottishLaddie (Reply 37):
EDI is higher yielding than MAN, J demand is greater from EDI and the need for a B767 is greater in that regard.

MAN has traditionally been a strong cargo market for CO, while EDI has little or nothing cargo wise...the wide body would generate far more total revenue thru MAN...but we will see...
 
by738
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:36 pm

Quoting ScottishLaddie (Reply 37):
EDI is higher yielding than MAN, J demand is greater from EDI

Would like to see formal stats for that, given the relative populations. As someone else says, cargo appears to be a more important dicriminator for whether widebodies are used, as there is not that much difference in the number of biz class comparing 2x757's with a 1x767.
 
ScottishLaddie
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:06 pm

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 39):
MAN has traditionally been a strong cargo market for CO, while EDI has little or nothing cargo wise...the wide body would generate far more total revenue thru MAN...but we will see...


I was going to bit on the end of my post saying that, EDI doesn't carry much cargo just now, but would a B767 on the route change that? Especially with DL stopping the B763, and that thing carrys a lot of cargo most days.

Quoting BY738 (Reply 40):
Would like to see formal stats for that, given the relative populations. As someone else says, cargo appears to be a more important dicriminator for whether widebodies are used, as there is not that much difference in the number of biz class comparing 2x757's with a 1x767.

Obviously it's not possible to get stats on airline's specific yields on each flight publically. 1 B762 and 1 B752 would generate significantly more revenue for them though than the 2 B752s just now, which is why it's being looked at.
There's been a few times this summer when MAN's second flight has gone out with only 2 Bizfirst pax. That's unheard of at EDI, the first flight is almost always full, the 2nd flight normally in double figures, but never below 7. The other day out of 15 Bizfirst pax on the second flight, 12 of them were travelling on the most expensive J fare class, the first flight was full as usual. Make no mistake, with regard to passenger revenue, EDI is higher yielding than MAN. Bring cargo into it and things might be different, I can't imagine MAN carries that much cargo just now? Because you're restricted in how much you can take on a B752.
 
masseybrown
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:18 am

It's not all bad that CO will probably be making only modest additions to the 2008 schedule. There is evidence that the economy as well as growth in disposable income are slowing. With all the schedule additions by various airlines, TATL load factors could drop, putting pressure on fares.
 
HUYfan
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:33 am

I don't think that your analysis of CO's MAN and EDI operations has any significant bearing on the real situation. I would bet hands down that MAN is more profitable than EDI.

Regards

Mike
 
iahcsr
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:25 am

Quoting Pbb152 (Reply 35):
It is 35 options for the 787 now? I thought they only had 20 or so options

That's what I thought as well, but LK said 35 and he should know. I get the impression Boeing said 'grab some open slots now or someone else will'...  crowded 
Working Hard, Flying Right Friendly....
 
fun2fly
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:05 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 1):
We will probably hear something on or about October 11th, the FAA has new rules about when airlines at EWR and JFK can post their Summer schedules and they have set the date of October 11th as the date.

If this is true, why has DL loaded their 2008 summer schedule?

DL just announced a sh**load of new routes currently being discussed in another thread. CO does not have the metal to match that kind of expansion in 2008 or 2009 (net 3 787's and +/-10 752's). DL sure has played catch up quickly.
 
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STT757
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:41 am

Quoting FUN2FLY (Reply 45):
If this is true, why has DL loaded their 2008 summer schedule?

The FAA wants the Summer '08 schedules for EWR and JFK in by October 11th, which DL did.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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STT757
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:44 am

Quoting FUN2FLY (Reply 45):
DL just announced a sh**load of new routes currently being discussed in another thread. CO does not have the metal to match that kind of expansion in 2008 or 2009 (net 3 787's and +/-10 752's). DL sure has played catch up quickly.

CO was just awarded EWR-PVG for 2009, their third Chinese route. In a few days CO launches EWR-BOM, their second Indian route. In a short while CO will announce their Summer 2008 plans, in 2009 CO takes delivery of their first of 25 firm (35 options) 787s. They are in good shape.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
nuggetsyl
Posts: 156
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:46 am

Quoting FUN2FLY (Reply 45):
If this is true, why has DL loaded their 2008 summer schedule?

DL just announced a sh**load of new routes currently being discussed in another thread. CO does not have the metal to match that kind of expansion in 2008 or 2009 (net 3 787's and +/-10 752's). DL sure has played catch up quickly.

dl as also slashed there us flying to do the international.
 
ikramerica
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RE: CO's Int'l Expansion Plans 2008

Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:57 am

Quoting IAHFLYER (Reply 38):
Needs to be non-stop from IAH or via AKL. HNL is just to far out of the way.

185nm is too far out of the way compared to AKL? And that's flying over ELP and SAN to remain in USA airspace and avoid paying Mexico overflight. And it's only 100nm greater than transiting LAX.

I'm not saying they would start this route (though it wouldn't be horrible), but the idea that it's so much out of the way to go via HNL is one of those a.net myths. Even vs. non-stop, it's only 300nm longer than a non-stop (taking ETOPS 240 into account), and both segments (IAH-HNL, HNL-SYD) could be flown with maximum revenue payload 365 days a year on a 787 or 777, while the non-stop route would be severely limited or need a 77L or 788LR version.

CO just doesn't have the interest in such a flight.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.

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