kaitak
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The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:52 am

Well, it had to be a Hitchhiker's theme here, particularly as I've noticed a lot in common between Ryanair and the Vogons; does Michael O'Leary write poetry? Maybe he'll share it at the next EI AGM.

Anyway, here we are on the 42nd thread of 2007 ... it's been a pretty exciting year so far and I'm sure there's still quite a few surprises left for the 4th quarter.

Ryanair, as we saw at the end of the last thread, isn't going to give up easily on the whole EI EGM thing, so I think we're going to hear a lot more on this soon; ominously, it was mentioned that there is to be a vote on the new EI long haul fleet acquisition, so I wonder what kind of mayhem will be created there; maybe MO'L will challenge the meeting and price, claiming he can get an equivalent number of 787s for less - either for EI ... or for his own t/a operation. That would certainly throw the cat among the pigeons!

Oh for a crystal ball ... We should be hearing some more news about next years routes over the next few months; Delta has just announced its 2008 Collection and unfortunately among the new models on the "runway" is not DUB or SNN to any new US airports, nor even Cork. I had thought their new 757s might be used to open some new Irish routes, perhaps even DUB-CVG. However, I don't think all of those new ex-TWA/AA 757s have been spoken for yet, so we may well see some white smoke there.

Unfortunately, we should also see the official announcement of the end of the DXB route, which - particularly if it isn't taken up by EK - will be a bitter disappointment. The fact that new routes aren't being added is regrettable, but in fairness, understandable, given the heavy demand for new A330s.

Incidentally, I'm off home to the old country tomorrow, with BA via LGW, coming back on Sunday, so I may out of internet contact, but if anyone happens to be out at the aeropuerto on Saturday, I hope to be there; if you see me, do say hello! (Mind you, given the weather forecast, if we see anything, we should be lucky .. the Beeb is forecasting fog. D'oh!)

Anyway, enough for now; I now take out an unseemly large pair of scissors and declare the 42nd thread open for business!
 
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OA260
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:55 am

Quoting Kaitak (Thread starter):
Incidentally, I'm off home to the old country tomorrow, with BA via LGW, coming back on Sunday, so I may out of internet contact, but if anyone happens to be out at the aeropuerto on Saturday, I hope to be there; if you see me, do say hello! (Mind you, given the weather forecast, if we see anything, we should be lucky .. the Beeb is forecasting fog. D'oh!)

Have a good trip home Kaitak. Let me know what you think of BA LGW-DUB!! Im flying it in a few weeks time. My first flight on BA in years.

Just wondered if anyone had a list of carriers that served SNN in the last 10-15 years that stopped for re fuel.

I can think of PIA / RJ / SU off hand .
 
kaitak
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:58 am

ATA had a short lived route from Malta to JFK, with 757s, plus of course its (and WO's) troop flights.

Did Cubana stop at SNN for fuel now and again, en route to SVO?
 
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shamrock604
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:02 am

On the subject of the EGM, is it not high time that Ryanair's shareholders called an EGM of their own to question why MOL is using their money to finance what in effect is a personal vendetta?

He has invested in EI only to now try to strangle it at every opportunity. He also squandered his own shareholders money on a failed bid. I think it's high time FR had an EGM of it's own. Why arent it's shareholders demanding answers?
 
BestWestern
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:03 am

Quoting Kaitak (Thread starter):
Vogons

Everyone under the age of 30 is scratching their heads Kaitak...

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 2):
ATA had a short lived route from Malta to JFK

ATA this year are also flying Pristina -> SNN -> JFK
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 1):
Just wondered if anyone had a list of carriers that served SNN in the last 10-15 years that stopped for re fuel.

You can add TWA (JFK-TLV) and Saudia to that list.
 
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OA260
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:07 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 4):
Everyone under the age of 30 is scratching their heads Kaitak...

Im 31 lol.... whats ''vogons''????
 
kaitak
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:20 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 4):

Everyone under the age of 30 is scratching their heads Kaitak...

I'm not too far from that, thank you!! Seriously, though (or as seriously as one can talk about the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy!), it's based around the concept of earth being demolished to make way for a hyperspace bypass - the Vogons being the ones who do this (with planning permission, of course, but no one has bothered to read it!). Anyway, there are three survivors from earth and they go through space on a stolen space ship, (the Heart of Gold, which could do anything you wanted, provided you worked out how improbable what you wanted to do would actually happen). And they all lived happily ever after; there a trilogy of four books and I would strongly recommend them. They are probably the funniest books you'll ever read. Sadly, their author, Douglas Adams died about ten years ago of a heart attack. He was previously a writer for Monty Python.

If you read it, you'll see the parallel between MO'L and Vogons!

Anyway, moving swiftly along (!) - at hyper speed, I just wanted to reinforce the comments made by Brian Dromey in the last thread:

"If I were in charge at EI (which I am, sadly, not) I would be trying to do a major push on DXB, do a massive advertising campaign, and get those consular fares on ei.com, and retiming the service, if necessary. I would also be dediacting DUO to the service, continuing on to SFO. If I felt really cheeky I might advertise SFO and LAX in DXB, as EK fly to neither of these destinations. If Im buying the advertising space anyway, I might as well add LAX, SFO, conversley in Ireland I might as well add SYD, MEL, BKK, HKG, etc. I would also look at meal services and snack provisions accross the entire LH network, as well as upgrading the 332s to DUO standard, with the lower lobe crew rests. A tie-in to EK skywards might no go amiss either.
Only once all of this has been done, and in full swing for at least one schedule season, and we see what way trends are going would I begin to look at the viability of the service. I think it can work. Spouting on about how EI does not need to have a world class product just does not cut it anymore. EK are stuffing their cabins to the gills, by all accounts, and WHEN BA or VS arrive out of DUB, expect the same to happen, BA are about to laucnh an off shoot, and VS have a fleet of 787s arriving, which are not only too amall for LHR, but woudl have no slots to operate with."

Very well said, Brian; I agree strongly. Allowing DXB to die without really putting its heart into it is something which I think will hurt EI in time to come; if they'd put their all into it and failed, then I could understand, but they didn't. Now, if EK or QR (to DOH) comes into the market, it will make it a lot harder for EI to come onto the route. Personally, I've long suspected that the prospect of long haul routes to Asia is something they just dangle now and again, without really having much of a commitment to it.

As I've said before, when DM was appointed, I expected that he - as a former EK executive - would know what EI needed to compete on routes to Asia and while certainly, some things happened, DXB was his big "departure" and look what's happened to it. What happened to all the talk of a hub at DUB; sure, part of that (the state of DUB) isn't his fault, but the failure to market effectively, have a decent product and an effective interline agreement hasn't helped.

I agree that it is quite likely that some EU carrier will try and muscle in on Irish-US routes, but I still think the biggest threat will come from MO'L and his yet to be launched long haul product.
 
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shamrock604
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:54 am

Kaitak,

Agree wholeheartedly. I suspect however that DXB was only a way of using excess capacity (or sweating the assets, as lets face it, EI could do with spare A330 capacity to cover for tech) until open skies came along. Get in some extra revenue, but dont really spend much on promoting it, because they knew it wouldnt last anyway once more US access was agreed.

It's a shame, and I agree, EI may live to regret it.

However, there is no real threat of Asian carriers coming in until 10L/28R (with its extra length) opens so perhaps EI can afford to carry on with a lacklustre product and no asian presence until that happens.
 
kaitak
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:01 am

Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 8):
However, there is no real threat of Asian carriers coming in until 10L/28R (with its extra length) opens so perhaps EI can afford to carry on with a lacklustre product and no asian presence until that happens.

Quite possibly, but I think that this point only underlines the importance of a proactive approach at govt level; EI has shown the govt that it will have no hesitation about serving its own interests. The govt needs to take a note of this and pursue its interests; if the airlines pursue their interests and the govt doesn't pursue its (i.e. ours, as a whole), then important markets can be lost out.

If EI won't do the job, the govt needs to ensure that DUB is capable of accommodating the needed growth and that the DAA goes out and gets the carriers in; again, competition is vital here, to "incentivise" the DAA.
 
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:03 am

Why was Air France permitted to acquire both Air Inter and UTA?

Air Inter had, amongst other aircraft, 36 A320s; 22 A300s; and 5 A321s. It was a major domestic French airline. UTA, meanwhile, specialised in long-haul flights, particularly to Africa and the Indian Ocean.

Evidently such acquisitions greatly strengthened AF’s position and dominance, it greatly increased its route network and its fleet, and it meant that there was extremely little competition on flights within France and from France to Africa and the Indian Ocean – both of which being the same today. AF’s acquisition of both airlines meant less choice and higher fares.

And we could, of course, comment on AF's acquisition of KL - and its hope to acquire IB.

Why, then, can’t FR acquire EI? It wouldn’t much register in FR’s ever-growing network. And the extra dominance it’d gain at DUB would, in my view, be less dramatic than AF’s dominance on domestic French routes and on France-Africa and France-Indian Ocean routes since the acquisitions. FR could start long-haul flights from Ireland if it were so inclined, so it doesn't need to acquire EI for that reason. However you look at it it reeks of favouritism, unfairness, and inconsistency. However, I personally believe that FR doesn’t in any way need EI except to prove a point: that it is the airline that is nowadays more powerful. After all, we all remember what EI did in the very early days of FR.

[Edited 2007-09-26 20:21:30]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
tonymctigue
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:12 am

Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 8):
Agree wholeheartedly. I suspect however that DXB was only a way of using excess capacity (or sweating the assets, as lets face it, EI could do with spare A330 capacity to cover for tech) until open skies came along. Get in some extra revenue, but dont really spend much on promoting it, because they knew it wouldnt last anyway once more US access was agreed.

That's a good point & a possible reason why DXB was chosen. However there is also the theory that has been floating around here for a while that EI only DXB to discourage EK from doing so. It is very hard to know. No matter waht the reasons are, EI did not do a good job on DXB & EY really put the last nail in the coffin for the DUB-DXB service.
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OA260
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:18 am

Quoting Tonymctigue (Reply 11):
EI did not do a good job on DXB & EY really put the last nail in the coffin for the DUB-DXB service.

It will be interesting to see if EK ever do take up a DXB route and compete with EY !! I wonder who would win. I think EY have done a good job of promoting its product to both the public and the industry. Mind you I have heard people refer to EY as Emirates and also mention that Etihad goes Via Dubai !! lol....
 
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:26 am

[email protected],

France was and always will be a special case as regards aviation. What AF wants, it gets.

Plenty of alternative theories may be put up to explain why low cost airlines cant get a foothold in France, such as the high speed rail network etc etc, but The french state will ensure that AF is the only real show in town. They may have judged that economically, a single airline policy of sorts is best, as it protects the viability of the CDG hub which is so economically important to France, so I will reserve comment on the wisdom of that decision from a French perspective.

In the case of AF / Air Inter, the latter was set up by AF and French state rail company SNCF, so i wasnt really a take over, but more a case of folding a subsidiary back into the mainline.

Ii agree that FR is proving a point to EI, but the question is, does it really need to prove that point. Everyone knows it is bigger, leaner and will pretty much stuff the competition when it comes to low fares. Why does FR feel the need to go around picking fights with EI, RE and WX?

Indeed the very way in which MOL is dealing with EI smacks of Personal Vendetta. If I were an FR shareholder, I would want to know exactly what he thought he was up to with MY money.

I agree that you have a point with what EI did to FR in its early days. But, I ask you was EI different to any other flag carrier in what was a highly regulated aviation market everywhere, not just in Ireland. It was just the way it was, but times have changed.
 
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:41 am

Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 13):
France was and always will be a special case as regards aviation.

Stinks of favouritism and bias.

To me FR’s proposal is considerably less dramatic or serious than AF getting Air Inter, UTA, and KL. And now it’s considering IB.

There seems to be substantial inconsistency.

And what about AB acquiring LTU? That created Europe’s fourth-largest airline group. And now AB wants to acquire Condor, thus strengthening its position and dominance even more.

Again, it stinks of favouritism, bias, and inconsistency.

Why would FR want EI? I don’t know. I personally think it has more important stuff to concentrate on, particularly its plan to double pax numbers and fleet size by 2012. (I wonder whether FR's net profit will be over $1bn by 2012. It's presently about $540m.) I wouldn’t say that it was a personal vendetta, but rather probably a show of power and ability over what was once the dominant force. Again, it’d be better in my view to concentrate on more important things.

[Edited 2007-09-26 20:44:05]
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
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shamrock604
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:50 am

[email protected],

I agree that there is a lot of inconsistency at european level regarding mergers and takeovers. You simply could not dispute this.

And I agree that FR would be better off concentrating on other things. I am not an FR hater, I applaud they have helped make Ireland one of the most accesible small island nations in the world through low fares and stimulation of demand. I dont like flying with them personally, but each to their own.

What I do not want however, is FR shutting down every other Irish carrier and us returning to the days of monopoly. As a country, we have a right to stop that happening.
 
BrianDromey
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:54 am

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 14):
There seems to be substantial inconsistency.

And what about AB acquiring LTU? That created Europe’s fourth-largest airline group. And now AB wants to acquire Condor, thus strengthening its position and dominance even more.

Again, it stinks of favouritism, bias, and inconsistency.

My only thought would be that FR, in itself can not be easily compared to other carriers.

AF/KL are very different to EI/FR in that they do not share the most important on a relatively small and peripheral island as their primary base. AF/KL were also able to streamline teir networks and offer very strong networks, with realively little overlap, and almost none on European routes. Similarly LX/LH.

A combined FR/EI would leave Ireland with very little choice, make DUB an absolute fortress for FR, give FR permission to drive all competiton out of DUB (and they would) and then use that platform to drive competition out of Europe. Its how they gained the position they currently have now. They very successfully used core UK-Ireland routes to sustain dramatic(ly loss making) growth in Europe, so if they could control DUB, by extension there is an excellent chance they could put the squeeze on Europe.

But [email protected], you are supposed to be an advocate of competition, if you object to AF/KL and AB/LT/DE then you must, surely, object to a takeover of EI by FR?

Brian.
 
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:58 am

Quoting Shamrock604 (Reply 15):
What I do not want however, is FR shutting down every other Irish carrier and us returning to the days of monopoly. As a country, we have a right to stop that happening.

Fair point. Guess we'll just have to see what develops.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
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shamrock604
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 17):
Fair point. Guess we'll just have to see what develops.

Indeed, and it will be an interesting journey, thats for sure. It certainly fills up these threads!!!  

But I stand by my assertion that FR's shareholders really need to take a closer look at what MOL is at with EI and call their own EGM!

[Edited 2007-09-26 21:11:31]
 
tonymctigue
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:25 am

First of all, I would like to say that I'm glad we are getting along here with our visitor [email protected] & having a good discussion about takeovers in the airline industry in Europe.

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 14):
There seems to be substantial inconsistency.

There certainly does seem to be serious inconsistencies at European level at the way they deal with takeovers & AF seems to get away with murder in terms of getting their way & keeping out competition. It seems to be taking it a bit too far by letting AF acquire both Air Inter and UTA. This must give AF a total monopoly in terms of internal air travel in France. However the FR takeover bit for EI I believe is a totally different setup. As was mentioned above, Ireland is an island nation that relies very heavily on air travel to keep it connected to mainland Europe & I believe firmly that competition is an absolute necessity in order to keep prices down. We have all lived through the time EI had a monopoly on flights out of Ireland so we all well aware of the consequences of monopolies. I may be harsh on FR at times but I have huge respect for the way that they broke the EI monopoly & opened Ireland up to all of Europe not to mention the benefits they have brought to SNN. So, lets not disrupt a good thing by letting FR take over EI. As someine said earlier, FR don't need to prove a point to anybody. Everyone knows they are a very successful airline with a cost base that is the envy of the entire industry. Just my 2  twocents 
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Bramble
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:24 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 252):
They really did nothing to promote links with EK or link websites etc... This could have been done quite easily contrary to what some say .

Do you remember how EI advertised the BWI and MCO (charter service) a couple of years ago. Compared to then DXB is virtually ignored.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 7):
Very well said, Brian; I agree strongly. Allowing DXB to die without really putting its heart into it is something which I think will hurt EI in time to come;



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 7):
when DM was appointed, I expected that he - as a former EK executive - would know what EI needed to compete on routes to Asia............................DXB was his big "departure" and look what's happened to it.

As a shareholder/employee I want DM to return his 900K bonus so it can help to pay to revamp the LAX and/or EWR cabin.

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 14):
Stinks of favouritism and bias.

Welcome to France. I have been many times on the ramp at CDG due slot restrictions watched AF taxi away to take off.
 
iRISH251
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:35 am

Wasn't the situation in France pre- the takeover of UTA and Air Inter that the market was largely carved up between the three airlines anyway? Air Inter was primarily an internal carrier for many years and UTA served certain African and Pacific destinations which I think AF did not. Air France was the only French carrier with any substantial international network within Europe and the Middle East. Therefore the merging of the three did not have any major effect on competition, I would suggest.
 
al2637
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:24 am

I don't think the MOL has wasted shareholders money on a vendetta or to prove a point, it's actually a good business decision. DUB is arguably FR's most profitable base (maybe STN is 1st?), he has used the stake to run rings around EI and made the management take their eye of the ball. His stake allows him to get up to all sorts of mischief in the future and to make life very difficult for whoever manages EI. This plays right into FRs hand. I do question whether FR ever intended to fully take over EI or if the whole thing has been mischief making all along.

WRT DXB, as I've said before I don't see how DM coming from EK has any bearing on the success (or not) of an EI route. It doesn't make it any less likley that EK will cooperate with codesharing, FF integration etc etc. I find it funny that so many people believe EI don't actually know themselves what is required to improve product... They DO! It just comes down to economics.

From reading the forum over the past few weeks, it seems there is a considerable proportion of posters that have the ideal that EI should go down the route of increasing service levels on long haul flights, and playing to the romantic notion of the legacy carriers of old. This just isn't going to work. If EI had any vision they would be running down the low-cost/long haul route as fast as they could. Because if they don't someone else will get there first. Ireland is a price sensitive market, EI will not survive if another carrier undercuts them on long-haul. It will be a race to the bottom, and right now, EI haven't even tied their laces.
 
EI564
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:33 am

Quoting [email protected] (Reply 14):
To me FR’s proposal is considerably less dramatic or serious than AF getting Air Inter, UTA, and KL. And now it’s considering IB.

There seems to be substantial inconsistency.

And what about AB acquiring LTU? That created Europe’s fourth-largest airline group. And now AB wants to acquire Condor, thus strengthening its position and dominance even more.

Again, it stinks of favouritism, bias, and inconsistency.

I don't know much about French aviation but I do know that the EU does look at other transport modes when it looks at the effects of mergers. Thus while AF would have a major share of the French domestic aviation market, the EU would view the TGV as a viable major alternative to AF. Ireland's island status doesn't allow this alternative.

As for AB's "position and dominance". Please. Lufthansa still dominates Germany. This should ensures that it will have some proper competition.

In other words, I think the EU's decisions are rational. You can't please everyone though.
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:17 am

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 22):
it seems there is a considerable proportion of posters that have the ideal that EI should go down the route of increasing service levels on long haul flights, and playing to the romantic notion of the legacy carriers of old.

I don't know, people on the thread are looking for pretty simple investments, improved cabin and improved food, thats it really I think. the problem is everyone else seems to be improving their product with the exception of EI, this won't be improved until new aircraft come on stream. EI is going to have to really start battling product with CO and DL this/next year and they don't seem willing to, I think prices are low enough on all airlines, and If i knew I had a BA or AF type seat and food, I think I'd choose to fly them even if it did cost me a couple of hundred euro more... then again thats just my opinion

Quoting EI564 (Reply 23):
Ireland's island status doesn't allow this alternative.

We have the largest car ferry in the world sailing between the welsh and ourselves, I guess that kinda proves the point that there shouldn't be a monopoly on flights in and out of Ireland.
John Hancock
 
kaitak
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:22 pm

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 22):
WRT DXB, as I've said before I don't see how DM coming from EK has any bearing on the success (or not) of an EI route. It doesn't make it any less likley that EK will cooperate with codesharing, FF integration etc etc. I find it funny that so many people believe EI don't actually know themselves what is required to improve product... They DO! It just comes down to economics.

From reading the forum over the past few weeks, it seems there is a considerable proportion of posters that have the ideal that EI should go down the route of increasing service levels on long haul flights, and playing to the romantic notion of the legacy carriers of old. This just isn't going to work

I think it has a very considerable bearing, because he would/should know that (a) you need a good standard of service, or people just aren't going to bother, particularly on a route like DXB, where there are SO many alternatives, (b) you need marketing - you need people to know that your product is there and accessible from a wide variety of new destinations and (c), which leads on from (b), you need to have a schedule and interline arrangements which make that possible. I really don't think it's unreasonable to expect this of EI and particularly, DM.

With regard to the economics, I hope they now understand, at least, that delivering an inconsistent service and skimping on investment in their product is a false economy.

As far as increasing service and the romantic notion, I don't think that is necessarily correct. On a short haul flight, where you're only on a plane for an hour or two, you're less bothered by comfort and you'll put up with less comfort, but on a long haul flight, you do want and need that bit more.

Sure, it's worth looking at the long haul low cost and maybe there is a market for that, but I think there are a lot of doubts about that. My real concern is this: people will look at the headline fare and say, "oh look, €200 to Dublin, great, let's go!", but as we know, not all seats will be sold at this price and sooner or later, the price will have to go up, just like FR's last seats often go for up to £150-200, still with the same FR service. The problem is that on a long haul flight, the alternatives are very numerous and while people will say, "I'll happily pay €200 for a few hours of discomfort, they may not be willing to pay much more and once the fare starts reaching €3,4 and 500, they will start looking towards other, more comfortable alternatives and where are you, then?

In fairness, I don't think the wish for comfort is harking back to a romantic old age; when I look back at aviation in the past, it certainly doesn't seem romantic; I think of silly restrictions, economic depression and DUB with about 2-3m pax per annum (which it was handling, when I became interested in aviation!). The focus here is very definitely forward!
 
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:43 pm

Acquiring EI would enable a stronghold existence in DUB, but I nevertheless think that FR could better get to that position organically (I’m almost always against acquisitions) and consequently in a more efficient and effective manner. In my view it really need not be bothered with EI: it has better things to concentrate on, specifically its projected major growth to double its present passenger numbers (it’ll carry 50m by this year) and double its fleet numbers by 2012. That is, of course, a major undertaking. I wonder whether FR will reach $1bn net profit by 2012. Hmm. It’s presently at about $540m. I reckon it’ll probably be $800-850m by 2012, unless something major - in a bad way - happens (stop crossing your fingers!  Wink ).
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
al2637
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:56 pm

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 25):
I really don't think it's unreasonable to expect this of EI and particularly, DM.

Ok but my point is that EI and DM know all this. The dog in the street knows this, it is not that difficult to see. The point being that it is not so easy to do all these things. If EK won't interline/codeshare fully what can EI do? Everything else you suggest costs money.

I agree with you on delivering a consistent product, and it is why I think the current EI management have no vision. Offer a good consistent business class, and a very low cost economy class where you pay for everything, IFE, food, drinks etc etc.. then offer €20 to New York. Believe me, if EI don't do it, someone else will.

I don't really understand your point about FR? Sure late booking can cost €100-300 for a flight you could have bought for 1c, but they still manage to fill planes doing this (better than EI!). Yield managemend is a hugley complex function within an airline. They have people who do nothing more than watch bookings all day and open/close booking classes to grab as much yield as possible. The LCC generally wins (higher yield per PAX) because the unit cost is lower than someone like EI.

I'm not saying that LHLC has to be uncomfortable, just that you get what you pay for. But I do think there is demand for a good business class, some people have too much money to burn  Smile
 
sawtooth
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:09 pm

The XL airways Ireland West Knock - Gatwick service confirmed today, will start 6 day and go 7 from May. Xl's first scheduled route in he UK or Ireland. While it's not AMS or LHR it should go someway to giving the west more hub connections. Interesting to see if FR reacts this time to another newcomer on their "turf".

http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0926/knock.html

http://irelandwestairport.com/news.asp?ID=224&dbtype=News

[Edited 2007-09-27 11:22:33]
 
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OA260
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:31 pm

Quoting Sawtooth (Reply 28):
The XL airways Ireland West Knock - Gatwick service confirmed today, will start 6 day and go 7 from May. Xl's first scheduled route in he UK or Ireland. While it's not AMS or LHR it should go someway to giving the west more hub connections. Interesting to see if FR reacts this time to another newcomer on their "turf".

Hopefully they will have a better reliability record than their Summer 2007 operations. They have had quite alot of technical issues with major delays. On such a route with people wanting to connect to LGW hub the service needs to be reliable.
 
rineanna
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:46 pm

Quoting Sawtooth (Reply 28):
The XL airways Ireland West Knock - Gatwick service confirmed today, will start 6 day and go 7 from May. Xl's first scheduled route in he UK or Ireland. While it's not AMS or LHR it should go someway to giving the west more hub connections.

That's for sure. Very good news for NOC indeed. The management there seem really proactive in capturing new destinations and airlines. It'll be interesting to see, this being their first scheduled service as you said, if they interline with anyone at LGW. Maybe even Oasis Hong Kong!!!
 
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OA260
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:00 pm

Quoting Rineanna (Reply 30):
That's for sure. Very good news for NOC indeed. The management there seem really proactive in capturing new destinations and airlines

Have to say NOC definately seem to know what they are doing. They had a blast of TV and radio advertising and have the right mind set . Anyone know whos behind this ???

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

On another note a great day for the A380 program today as BA orders 12 of these amazing machines. A great day for BA and Airbus.
 
sawtooth
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:36 pm

Yup, never been that attracted to BA long haul but I wouldn't mind a BA A380 to Sydney! Incidentally what ever happened to the EI code share with Emirates on DBX - SYD, saw all the press releases last year but could never find it on any travel website?
 
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OA260
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:36 pm

Quoting Sawtooth (Reply 32):
Yup, never been that attracted to BA long haul but I look forward to taking a A380 to Sydney!

I'm the same. I haven't done BA long haul or come to mention it any BA flights in years. BA getting the A380 will definately get me on them again. I wonder if they will do anything with WTP cabin . It seems to be comfortable at a reasonable price.
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:31 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 31):
Anyone know whos behind this ???

Not the DAA?
John Hancock
 
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OA260
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:55 pm

Interesting article I read today with Enda Corneille

Quote ::

Question:: Aer Lingus has indicated it has ambitions on Long Haul. Can you indicate where and when?

Enda: Yes this is correct. Our Dubai service has been successful with loads in the mid 70’s. However our real concentration on Long Haul is to and from the US. With our new aircraft coming on line soon, we are looking at several new destinations in the US, apart from the recently announced services to San Francisco, Orlando and Washington. Over 50% of our business in the US is now done on our site, and is increasing all the time. At present we have no ambition to go to Australia, but China looks like a strong possibility.


Question : Who is Enda Corneille?


Enda Corneille (42) is married with two young children (5 & 7), and although young in years has had extensive experience in Aer Lingus. He started his career as a trainee accountant and joined Aer Lingus in 1986 and worked with Maurice Coleman in pricing. In 1989 he went to London as sales representative and in 1994 was promoted to Manager Switzerland. In 1996 he moved on to Amsterdam and in 1997 was promoted to Head of Sales UK. In 2000 Enda was promoted to Head of Sales Ireland and in 2002 to Head of Sales Europe . In 2006 he was made Commercial Director.
 
BrianDromey
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:00 pm

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 22):
Ireland is a price sensitive market, EI will not survive if another carrier undercuts them on long-haul. It will be a race to the bottom, and right now, EI haven't even tied their laces.

Interesting, but EY are a bit more expensive to Dubai than EI are by about 125EUR. Yet EI's loads are not great, and EY are going out stuffed. Of course interline connections also help EY fill out the aircraft, but it just goes to show that EI really dropped the ball here. IMHO, there were several relatively easy steps EI could have taken, improving connections and food on board, but they did not.

If Ireland is so price driven, then why do BA KL and AF have so many connectiong passengers to destinations which could be taken more cheaply from DUB/SNN? I think there is a large chunk of price sensitive market out there, but there is also a demand for Premium Economy services and 'proper' J class amenities. BA/VS or some one else will provide these services, and WHEN they do, EI will be left scrambling just like FR left EI scrambling on short haul.

Quoting Sawtooth (Reply 28):
Interesting to see if FR reacts this time to another newcomer on their "turf".

Oh, dear, visions of easyJet, London Gatwick, Cork, Knock and Shannon spring to mind. Expect to see FR back on LGW-NOC, twice daily with 0.01c fares.

Actuallt, that comment reminded me of U2 and LGW, no one seemed to mind too much when U2 pulled out of SNN. Where were the protesters then, and where was the Atlantic Connectivity Alliance? The connections might not have been seamless, but they were there.

Brian.
 
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OA260
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 37):
but there is also a demand for Premium Economy services and 'proper' J class amenities

Dont forget we have a good economy and alot of rich people who want the best!!! Alot of affluent Irish business men and women who want the good life and pay for it.
 
jwmd123
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:12 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 36):
Question:: Aer Lingus has indicated it has ambitions on Long Haul. Can you indicate where and when?

Enda: Yes this is correct. Our Dubai service has been successful with loads in the mid 70's. However our real concentration on Long Haul is to and from the US. With our new aircraft coming on line soon, we are looking at several new destinations in the US, apart from the recently announced services to San Francisco, Orlando and Washington. Over 50% of our business in the US is now done on our site, and is increasing all the time. At present we have no ambition to go to Australia, but China looks like a strong possibility

could we take this to mean that maybe it has all been cloak and daggers about DXB stopping.

Whilst I get from the snippet the US is always going to big in the minds of EI, Eastbound destinations will be hot on the heels also

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 37):
Oh, dear, visions of easyJet, London Gatwick, Cork, Knock and Shannon spring to mind. Expect to see FR back on LGW-NOC, twice daily with 0.01c fares.

I remember when MyTravelite operated a DUB-BHX and NOC-BHX service (2005 I think). I used the DUB-BHX service once or twice and it was not bad (Good timings and decent fares).
FR, I know at the time ramped up on DUB-BHX (EI stayed the same) and in the end MyTravelite pulled the plug. As they used the same aircraft for DUB and NOC flights they left Ireland all together.

Once thing I have to say about FR; they don't like anybody walking onto their patch. They will get down in the mud and fight.
 
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OA260
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:20 pm

Quoting JWMD123 (Reply 39):
I remember when MyTravelite operated a DUB-BHX

I used to fly them BFS-BHX and I loved them . I thought they were very good. On time and decent AC .

Quoting JWMD123 (Reply 39):
could we take this to mean that maybe it has all been cloak and daggers about DXB stopping.

I guess he is not going to say its doing crap lol....
 
kaitak
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:44 pm

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 27):
I don't really understand your point about FR? Sure late booking can cost €100-300 for a flight you could have bought for 1c, but they still manage to fill planes doing this (better than EI!). Yield managemend is a hugley complex function within an airline. They have people who do nothing more than watch bookings all day and open/close booking classes to grab as much yield as possible. The LCC generally wins (higher yield per PAX) because the unit cost is lower than someone like EI.

I guess the point I'm making is that if you're on a short flight, say BHX-DUB, you have very few options; i.e. FR or EI and you can't really go via somewhere else; comfort isn't an issue on a 35-40 minute flight. HOWEVER, on a long flight it will be. I'm at LGW now and let's just say that the rather smart looking Mytravel A330 out on the apron is going on a long haul route which I want to fly ... I know it's 9 abreast, but for £50, 70 or £100 (one way), maybe even a little more, I'd be willing to pay for this ... BUT ... once the fare goes up to a higher level, I'll be looking around ... I will want more comfort and the more I pay, the more I will want. For £250, I certainly won't want to go long haul low cost AND the longer the flight, the more options I will have; look at all the different ways of gettingh from SIN or BKK to LHR; there's no shortage of options and with all of the competition, you can get a decent fare. QR always seems to be the cheapest and they're a damn good airline. So, that's really my point. The exhorbitant last minute fare might work on a short flight, where there's less choice, but the longer the flight, the more the choice and for a 12-14h flight, people will look around.

I look at Fly Asia Express and its proposals for nine abreast on its A330s to Europe - 14h, 9 abreast in a 330? Eeek! (Funnily enough, our dear old 'SHN isn't being configured in this layout!) . That's fine if you're paying £30-40 a ticket, but how many seats will go for that!

As for DXB, well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see, but really, if they've arsed up DXB, I just can't see them going further east. As Brian Dromey points out, EY is getting higher loads even with higher fares, so people do want a better service. I am looking forward to seeing what EI is doing with that. I really would love them to stay on; if DXB doesn't work, maybe try another route, but they shouldn't quit it without giving it 100%.

As I say, I'm at LGW now, waiting for the 17.00 BA to Dublin; effortless experience, even at LGW. It's the first time I've ever printed my boarding passes before I went to the airport; everything is just so easy now, with all the technology available.
 
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OA260
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:06 am

Was BFS-GVA scrapped to make way for BFS-NCE?? Maybe it was discussed on here before but I cant remember.
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SNN could loose €3m in income it gets on the SNN-LHR route as it offers upto 70% in incentives. Also they are looking at a further €6m loss in income as it contemplates a huge reduction in US Troop transit flights next year.
-------------------------------------------

From 2011 all Cityjet/AF flights will operate from terminal 2J in CDG.

--------------------------------------------------
You could win a weekend break with MA to BUD !!! www.malev.com/prize Enter from 1st October onwards!!!
 
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shamrock604
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:17 am

Kaitak,

At present your flight plan is filed for a 1700 local departure, with an on time slot restriction... no delays at the mo...
 
COEI2007
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 40):
Quoting JWMD123 (Reply 39):
could we take this to mean that maybe it has all been cloak and daggers about DXB stopping.

Who knows whats going on with DXB. SFO and IAD frequencies are being increased for next summer, so unless another 330 is on its way to EI, DXB is gone.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 41):
As I say, I'm at LGW now, waiting for the 17.00 BA to Dublin; effortless experience, even at LGW. It's the first time I've ever printed my boarding passes before I went to the airport; everything is just so easy now, with all the technology available.

I love LGW. Its so easy to get around, and theres plenty of shops to nose around in! And lots of windows to look out of at the BA 777's! I look forward to seeing EI's 320's back in LGW! Were using the South Terminal in LGW. Which terminal was used when the route was flown a few years back? Also, I wonder will there be a BA codeshare put on the flight? The last 2 times I flew the early morning BA flight to LGW, a lot of pax were connecting to MCO and DFW
 
EI787
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:30 am

EI have slightly altered their booking system on EI.com. You now see the TOTAL price at the bottom of the page when you select which date you'd like to travel. It's pretty neat! Try it out!
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:00 am

Construction on T2 is to begin next week, although FR has already an application in with the high court to stop it and I believe they are or have put another one in against the aviation regulator about higher costs in DUB so the DAA can pay for it all.

I'm very happy that the new terminal is starting, due to open April 2010, on the other hand I wish FR would just save everyone time effort and money and bugger off and let this one happen, I wasn't happy about it at the beginning but damn it's needed urgently.
John Hancock
 
COEI2007
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:10 am

LH will operate TXL to DUB services next summer. LH4986/7 operating only on Sat and Sun, with CRJ700 operated by LH Cityline! Interesting to see! Maybe just being operated to keep utilisation high? Gives pax a choice between EI and FR!
 
jwmd123
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 46):
Construction on T2 is to begin next week, although FR has already an application in with the high court to stop it and I believe they are or have put another one in against the aviation regulator about higher costs in DUB so the DAA can pay for it all.

There was a snippet in the Irish Times today were MO'L said that he reckons the court action against T2 will fail (Sorry no link, read it this morning.

Also, FR are increasing there pay for pilots

Quote:
20,000-plus rise for pilots - Ryanair
Thursday, 27 September 2007 15:50
Ryanair has agreed a four-year deal with its pilots which the airline says will give them pay rises worth up to €25,000 a year, and top salaries of more than €160,00 annually, as well as improved rosters, allowances and conditions.

The deal will give Dublin captains a basic pay and allowances increase worth more than €10,000 a year. They will also receive an extra €12,000 a year for allowances known as sector pay.

Dublin captains will receive a matching €5,000 pension contribution. Ryanair says an improved roster will give pilots four days off after every five days of work. They will receive an extra 25 days off a year, though will still fly up to the legal limit of 900 hours per year.

Ryanair says the new terms and conditions were approved by a significant majority of Dublin- based pilots - and will bring them into line with conditions for pilots at other Irish bases. The new terms will be implemented from October 14 next.

But the union representing almost all Ryanair pilots in Dublin has queried Ryanair's claim that a new deal would deliver salaries of up to €160,000 for pilots at the airline.

Impact assistant general secretary Michael Landers said that the vast majority of pilots would not be eligible for salaries in that range. He claimed that the pay agreement had not been negotiated in any meaningful way.

Mr Landers said that pilots had been faced with a choice between Ryanair's terms or nothing. He said they had accepted Ryanair's terms because they were better than nothing.

Ryanair has been engaged in a lengthy dispute with many of its pilots, who had sought to be represented by the Irish Airline Pilots Association and Impact. Ryanair has refused to recognise the unions - and won a key victory in the Supreme Court earlier this year.

The Supreme Court found that a Labour Court ruling in favour of the pilots was flawed, and that its procedures had been unfair to Ryanair. Ryanair said that this deal was achieved thanks to the re-opening of direct negotiations with its staff.

Director of personnel Eddie Wilson said Ryanair would be informing the Labour Court of this agreement, requesting an early hearing to have what it called IALPA's 'false claims' about conditions at the airline dismissed.

Meanwhile, IALPA is negotiating terms and conditions for Aer LIngus pilots at its new Belfast base. Earlier this week, Ryanair confirmed that it would be paying its Belfast pilots higher salaries than those currently on offer from Aer Lingus.
 
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shamrock350
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:33 am

Looks like EI-EWR could do with clean or repaint!

http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=677498

There's quite a few new photos of EI A330s on there, most look like their UNICEF stickers are peeling off.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 42):
Was BFS-GVA scrapped to make way for BFS-NCE?? Maybe it was discussed on here before but I cant remember.

I thought someone said it was going to be Rome scrapped.
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: The Answer Is 42; The Question: Irish Aviation

Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:42 am

Farewell


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