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RE: BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:03 pm
by scbriml
Quoting Mariner (Reply 280):
But I am puzzled by the sourness of some Boeing supporters.

But not surprised.

RE: BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:06 pm
by scbriml
Quoting Astuteman (Reply 295):
Or perhaps that BA aren't ready to order the whole fleet just yet.

Very possible. I would be surprised if their options are not firmed up fairly quickly. Especially if other airlines show a serious interest in buying A380s.

RE: BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:19 pm
by scbriml
Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 298):
I would say BA are unlikely to go for the A350. BA cabin crew on worldwide can only hold 3 licenses. So at the moment these are 747/767 and 777



Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 298):
The training for a Worldwide fleet with a possible 5 different a/c will not happen.

I really can't follow your logic here. You seem to be saying that BA long-haul will never have more than three types because crew can only (currently) hold three licences.

It's fairly obvious that for a considerable time after 2010 BA will have at least five types concurrently in their long-haul fleet (767, 787, 777, 747 & A380). How does that square with your theory?

Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 298):
I reckon by 2020 the fleet will consist of A380/777 and 787 for Longhaul

By 2020 the 777s will have significantly more efficient competitors available, I'd be surprised if BA wasn't replacing them long before then. By 2020 the fleet would more likely be 787, A350s and A380.

RE: BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:51 pm
by worldrider
Quoting Astuteman (Reply 295):
Or perhaps that BA aren't ready to order the whole fleet just yet.

i don't think they will wait till end 2008 to decide on the next order, i wonder why they already secured a1.5 billion dollar loan to pay their deposits as the present one just makes half of it?

RE: BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:59 pm
by anax
well done A ! congrats to both airbus and BA
now that the BA castle has fallen , who is next?

RE: BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:15 pm
by worldrider
Quoting Anax (Reply 304):
well done A ! congrats to both airbus and BA
now that the BA castle has fallen , who is next?

American Airlines  Wink

RE: BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:17 pm
by keesje
Quoting Anax (Reply 304):
now that the BA castle has fallen , who is next?

Air India?

RE: BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:30 pm
by Elite
Congrats to BA and A&B  Smile Can't wait to see the 787 and 380 on longhaul routes.

RE: BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:42 pm
by autothrust
Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 298):
The 787 will replace the 767, A380 the 747 and more than likely they will replace the remaining 747 with 777-300.

That doesn't make sense, no  when you can get in less then 7 years next gen. planes like the 787-10/11 or A350 which are much more efficient.
They could replace 777 and 747 with them and would provide more comfort to passangers and much lower maintenance costs.

BA would have only 2 or 3 types with a lot of commonality; 787-8/9/11, A380 or 787, A350(+A350-900R), A380.

RE: BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:57 pm
by Lumberton
Quoting Mariner (Reply 280):
I agree with the financial anaylst who says it is a very "sensible order", and that BA may have received discounts up to 25% off list from both manufacterers:

Speculation in this article that Airbus discounted the A380 up to 50%.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...ctors/transport/article2546862.ece

Quote:
The BA order could therefore trigger a landslide of other A380 purchases — something Airbus has been acutely aware of. As a result, the manufacturer is thought to have sold BA the aircraft at as much as 50 per cent off the list price.

However, there will be few complaints about the discount at Airbus’s home in Toulouse as the BA order gives the entire A380 programme a shot in the arm after two years of production delays and cancelled orders.

RE: BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:23 pm
by PADSpot
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 309):
Speculation in this article that Airbus discounted the A380 up to 50%.

I'd venture to say that Airbus cannot afford such discounts and they probably "knew" that there was no way around the A380 for BA. BA was forced by its competition to buy it; their very own strategy would had preferred a B748I sized-airplane.

RE: BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:40 pm
by vv701
Quoting Scbriml (Reply 301):
I would be surprised if their options are not firmed up fairly quickly. Especially if other airlines show a serious interest in buying A380s.

The delivery positions they have obtained - as I said in an earlier thread Walsh has been quoted in the Times newspaper as saying he hoped to have a dozen 787s and a couple of 380s inservice before August 2012 - suggest that both A and B are willing to be flexible enough with airlines of BA's commercial importance to show very high flexibility with production line positions. So I am expecting BA to gain some significant in-service experience with both aircraft before even thinking about their options.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 302):
I really can't follow your logic here. You seem to be saying that BA long-haul will never have more than three types because crew can only (currently) hold three licences.

I interpreted him as saying that at this time with a cost reduction programme the costs associated with the complexities of significantly increasing the number of aircraft types long haul cabin crew operated could limit a significant expansion of types operated in the fleet.

Here it must be remembered that BA still has 4 outstanding orders for the 772 and is operating 744s less than eight years old. Aircraft of both types - as stated in BA's last annual report - are likely to be operated by BA for up to 25 years. So their long haul fleet may not see the demise of the 744 until around 2020 and the 772 until around 2033! Currently BA has 3 long haul types. Soon it will have five with the addition of the 380 and 787. So he is saying adding a sixth (or maintaining it at five once the 763s are gone is a lot less efficient in terms of deploying cabin crew than thr present level of three.

Incidentally it is also clearly a lot less efficient in terms on engineering efficiency. However with the wide range of cabin configurations BA has for both its 772 and 744 fleets, aircraft deployment efficiencies are not so much of an issue.

RE: BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:52 pm
by scbriml
Quoting VV701 (Reply 311):
So he is saying adding a sixth (or maintaining it at five once the 763s are gone is a lot less efficient in terms of deploying cabin crew than thr present level of three.

Yes, I understand that, but he clearly said

Quoting BAOPS777 (Reply 298):
The training for a Worldwide fleet with a possible 5 different a/c will not happen.

Given how long it will take BA to get 744s and 767s out of their fleet, they will have at least five types for a long time.

Despite the fact they have new 772ERs on order, I think the prospect of replacing them with significantly more efficient planes will see them leave sooner.

RE: BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:52 pm
by mariner
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 309):
Speculation in this article that Airbus discounted the A380 up to 50%.

Yes, I read that. I've seen speculation of various percentages, but it all seems to be just that - speculation.

I have no doubt that BA got a healthy discount - from both suppliers - and of course, it is possible that BA got launch customer rates.

But then it raises the question - what was Being offering on their deal? I have little doubt that Boeing would have given BA launch customer rates for the 748.

So it's probably a wash.

mariner

[Edited 2007-09-28 13:03:46]

RE: BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:25 pm
by columba
Quoting RIX (Reply 187):
And when it comes to replacement, somehow I'm sure that 350 won't be any suitable for this

Please give a reason why an aircraft that comes nearly 20 years later on the market and has about the same size and capacity should not be a suitable replacement ? Just because it comes from a different manufacturer ?

Quoting Aerofan (Reply 277):
I wonder if this now means that VS will decide to now accept the A380?

They never said that they will not accept them they defered them to a later date.

Quoting Anax (Reply 304):
now that the BA castle has fallen , who is next?

EK, TG, LH are know to decide on their future longhaul fleet within the next few months.

RE: BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:26 pm
by Boogyjay
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 249):
I think Boeing dashed all hopes of a BA 748 order the second they decided to give GE the exclusive powerplant on the bird...

However, BA still officially consider purchasing the 77W, a GE-powered aircraft. See :

Quoting S.P.A.S. (Reply 248):
Following today�s order we are continuing to consider the most suitable aircraft to replace our remaining B747-400 aircraft and are examining the B787-10, B777-300 ER and A350XWB.

As for BA future WB orders, I see :
- A3510 and more A380s for the B744 replacement
- A359 and more B787s for B777 replacement and growth.
resulting in such a WB fleet :
A380
A350
B787

I can see BA not ordering A350s only if Boeing commits to an early Y3 or to a bigger wing +topped up LG on the B787 allowing more capable B7810 and B7811. With today's B787 design, Boeing has already difficulties giving the B7810 enough range to be attractive, I don't even talk about the B7811.
In this case, we'd have such a fleet :
A380
Y3 or B787-10/-11
B787-8/-9

Quoting Jtdieffen (Reply 250):
The bottom line is, never rule anything out until the order is signed.

I would rather say "...until the aircraft is delivered" (see EK's A346, FX' and 5X's A380F).

RE: BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:31 pm
by columba
Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 315):
As for BA future WB orders, I see :
- A3510 and more A380s for the B744 replacement
- A359 and more B787s for B777 replacement and growth.
resulting in such a WB fleet :
A380
A350
B787

I see it very much the same and the statements from BA might indicate that they will go this way.

RE: BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:57 pm
by keesje
Quoting Columba (Reply 316):
Quoting BoogyJay (Reply 315):
As for BA future WB orders, I see :
- A3510 and more A380s for the B744 replacement
- A359 and more B787s for B777 replacement and growth.
resulting in such a WB fleet :
A380
A350
B787

I see it very much the same and the statements from BA might indicate that they will go this way.


 checkmark 

Which will no doubt trigger Boeing to slash back in the 330+ seats segment they owned for 30 years with the 777-300ER and 747, which will trigger Airbus to come up with an ambitious narrowbody design http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z...r_Y1_narrow_bod-1.jpg?t=1190980422 at a moment Boeing is stretched.. etc etc ..lost of fun ahead folks..

RE: BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:06 pm
by Lumberton
Quoting Mariner (Reply 313):
I have no doubt that BA got a healthy discount - from both suppliers - and of course, it is possible that BA got launch customer rates.

But then it raises the question - what was Being offering on their deal? I have little doubt that Boeing would have given BA launch customer rates for the 7

Which begs the question, do both OEM's continue ad infinitum with the "launch customer rates"?

RE: BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787

Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:30 pm
by PanAm_DC10
Given this thread has over 300 replies those on dial up connections will be having trouble downloading this thread. Please continue the discussion at the following link for Part 2

BA Decides: 12 X A380 & 24 X B787 Part 2

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