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SCUMBAG
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PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:38 pm

I have to travel to Asia three or four times per year, Is anything coming up in the near future that would put a non stop route to Asia from PHX? Going to DET or LAX screws you out of an entire day!
 
PHXmd80
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:53 pm

Have heard numerous rumors about OZ to ICN.
 
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malaysia
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:08 pm

Quoting PHXmd80 (Reply 1):
Have heard numerous rumors about OZ to ICN.

My friend in PHX would be so happy for that, cause she is an OZ F/A Big grin but has to commute to LAX
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desertjets
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:13 pm

The most seemingly logical near term possibility would be ANA once the 787s come online in reasonable numbers. The fact that PHX is a *A hub also helps.

But without any concrete data about the number of passengers between PHX and any major Asian gateway it is hard for us armchair CEOs to really say anything for sure.

Only other possibility is USAirways, and now that they have secured rights to China (and are presumably trying to get equipment that can operate that route) it opens up the possibility of new service from PHX. But the question is to where.... NRT, NGO, KIX, ICN, TPE, HKG....?
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SCUMBAG
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:34 pm

what is OZ? what is ICN?
 
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LAXintl
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:00 am

PHX has been barely able to support Europe services let alone Asia.

Being a Star hub its indeed more likely that any service would be from the Star camp. In US Airways employees exchanges with their CEO and COO the topic of longhaul flying from PHX has come up on more then one occasions. According to them the only longhaul routes that they project would be viable from PHX would be to London and Frankfurt. London is obviously covered by BA, which leaves the possibility of LH to FRA.

Before PHX ever gets an Asia flight, I would say a city like San Diego is very much due for one first. But again one thing that hurt SAN chances is being so close to LA which similarly hurts PHX. A short hop to LA or slightly longer to SFO unlocks a wide selection of Asian airlines and destinations.

Lastly, I'd say keep in mind the poor track record LAS has had in maintaining Asia flying. While it happens to be one of America's largest travel destinations it has failed to hang onto consistent service.
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alphascan
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting SCUMBAG (Reply 4):
what is OZ? what is ICN?

SCUMBAG:

Take your mouse and place your pointer over the airline code, a pop up will show you that OZ is Asiana Airlines. Then place the pointer over the destination. A pop up will show you it is Seoul.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
AlexPorter
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:29 am

I hope PHX can get some Asia services in the future - most likely would seem to be Tokyo because of ANA and Seoul because of Asiana, but ANA is triple Asiana's size so NRT is the most likely Asian candidate. Not sure whether ANA or US would operate it.

On a side note, would US consider starting up PHX-FRA if LH doesn't? I know right now they have a direct flight through PHL on the same flight number but it's a plane swap. Can the A333 go that far or would they need the A340?
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SCUMBAG
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:57 am

Does a F/A from Asiana Airlines live in Phoenix? Wow! now that is exotic!
 
PavlovsDog
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:33 am

Quoting SCUMBAG (Thread starter):
Going to DET or LAX screws you out of an entire day!

How about San Francisco or Vancouver? They are good airports with lots of connections to Asia.
 
hz747300
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:49 am

Wouldn't be OZ most likely... If the car companies (Daewoo, Kia, Hyundai) all keep and/or build their proving grounds in or around PHX, then maybe there could be enough business travel to keep revenue up. ANA seems more likely, but they don't even fly to Sydney yet and I think that would be a priority. Singapore and Thai are also Star Alliance partners, but it would extremely to really doubtful either one would launch PHX service. I think that Star passengers are going to have to go via LA or San Francisco (or Vancouver) for quite some time. The next destination is most likely PHX-FRA when the new A332s arrive. And that would be it for a while. Remember, LH and LTU have already tried and given up on PHX....

But if you are flying from the US to Asia, you are losing a day anyways. When you fly back, you get to live the same day twice so try to do it on your birthday.
Keep on truckin'...
 
dispatchguy
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:54 am

I could see LAS before PHX, for LAS is the Sin Capital of the world...  Smile
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EWRCabincrew
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:54 am

Quoting SCUMBAG (Thread starter):
Going to DET or LAX screws you out of an entire day!

How does a 55 minute flight to LAX from PHX screw you out of an entire day?  scratchchin 

Quoting SCUMBAG (Reply 9):
Does a F/A from Asiana Airlines live in Phoenix? Wow! now that is exotic!

There is a veritable sh**load of flight attendants from just about every airline that commute from PHX to another city. As long as you show up for work on time, the company does not care where you live.

Exotic is living in the city where you are based.
You can't cure stupid
 
ProPHX
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:13 am

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 6):
PHX has been barely able to support Europe services let alone Asia.

I wouldn't say "barely." PHX is a growing market.

Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 11):
Remember, LH and LTU have already tried and given up on PHX....

The LTU flight was once per week. It doesn't really matter if you lose something that infrequent.

LH has not given up on PHX. They have publicly expressed interest in returning. Keep in mind that the orginal flight started only six months before 9/11. How was such a young flight supposed to recover from that?
 
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malaysia
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:40 am

Quoting SCUMBAG (Reply 8):
Does a F/A from Asiana Airlines live in Phoenix? Wow! now that is exotic!

Well not as exotic as you think, She is American,

all US based OZ F/A cannot be of asian origin. They cannot be Korean or mixed Asian, they have to strictly look like a native english speaker.
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golftango
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 6):
Quoting SCUMBAG (Reply 4):
what is OZ? what is ICN?

SCUMBAG:

Take your mouse and place your pointer over the airline code, a pop up will show you that OZ is Asiana Airlines. Then place the pointer over the destination. A pop up will show you it is Seoul.

I was about to say no need to call the poster a SCUMBAG for the question...then I realized it was his/her username!
 Big grin
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:03 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 5):
Before PHX ever gets an Asia flight, I would say a city like San Diego is very much due for one first. But again one thing that hurt SAN chances is being so close to LA which similarly hurts PHX. A short hop to LA or slightly longer to SFO unlocks a wide selection of Asian airlines and destinations.

Keep in mind the short runway at SAN hurts them for long-haul flying as well. But you're right that LAX, YVR and SFO are all good Asia hubs from the North American west coast.
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itsnotfinals
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:09 am

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 7):
PHX-FRA if LH doesn't?

US is already considering PHX-FRA nonstop and would use the new aircraft on order.
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LAXspotter
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:13 am

How would PHX's heat in the summer affect a flight, say to Tokyo Narita? Will it have any adverse effects? Did their BA flight take any restrictions, but if im not mistaken the BA flight left later on in the day correct?
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AlexPorter
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:16 am

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 10):
Remember, LH and LTU have already tried and given up on PHX....

Remember, as mentioned this flight was both affected by 9/11 and happened back before US had the PHX hub... it was just an HP hub at the time, and before the merger HP was not a Star Alliance member, so there weren't connection opportunities either.
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Viscount724
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:48 am

Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 11):
I could see LAS before PHX, for LAS is the Sin Capital of the world...

LAS already has nonstop KE service to ICN 3 days a week, and direct (one-stop) service to MNL via YVR 5 days a week. JL also served LAS for a couple of years, as a tag-on from SFO if not mistaken.


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Even PHX has had direct (one-stop) service to Asia in the past when America West unsuccessfully attempted service to Japan in 1990-91 with 3 747-200s acquired from KL. They operated PHX-HNL-NGO if memory correct, NGO the only point in Japan where they could obtain traffic rights. I think that service lasted less than a year.


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ConcordeBoy
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:07 am

Quoting ProPHX (Reply 13):
I wouldn't say "barely."

Why? They haven't been able to hold on to any but 1 of the carriers who've attempted thus

Quoting ProPHX (Reply 13):
It doesn't really matter if you lose something that infrequent.

...in your opinion.

Quoting ProPHX (Reply 13):
They have publicly expressed interest in returning.

Unfortunately, "interest"; expressed publically or otherwise; does not pay bills, provide airport revenue, nor transit passengers.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
JL also served LAS for a couple of years, as a tag-on from SFO if not mistaken.

Routing was NRT-LAS-LAX-NRT
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ProPHX
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 21):
Why? They haven't been able to hold on to any but 1 of the carriers who've attempted thus

"Barely" is a subjective term. My opinion is that BA is strong in PHX, LTU didn't matter, and LH will be back.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 21):
...in your opinion.

There are lots of opinions on this board, aren't there?

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 21):
Unfortunately, "interest"; expressed publically or otherwise; does not pay bills, provide airport revenue, nor transit passengers.

This is a non-sequitur. I never said that interest translated into any of those things. Any route in the planning stages would reflect interest but would not pay bills, etc.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:46 am

Quoting ProPHX (Reply 22):
There are lots of opinions on this board, aren't there?

And as proven by some of your posting... many of them are based on elements far short of tangible reality  Wink
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ProPHX
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:48 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 23):
And as proven by some of your posting... many of them are based on elements far short of tangible reality

In YOUR opinion....
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:52 am

Quoting ProPHX (Reply 24):
In YOUR opinion....

...indeed, and quite corroborated by the above.

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 19):
was just an HP hub at the time

True. Though interesting to note that PHX was one of the few USA airports to house the largest operations of multiple major airlines.
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ProPHX
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:54 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 25):
True. Though interesting to note that PHX was one of the few USA airports to house the largest operations of multiple major airlines.

Besides HP and WN, who else? Isn't this still a true statement then?
 
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:56 am

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 19):
Remember, as mentioned this flight was both affected by 9/11 and happened back before US had the PHX hub... it was just an HP hub at the time, and before the merger HP was not a Star Alliance member, so there weren't connection opportunities either.

More importantly HP was a BA partner and that gave BA an advantage that LH didn't have as far as connections from PHX.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:18 am

Quoting ProPHX (Reply 26):
Isn't this still a true statement then?

PHX has long since ceased to be WN's largest station. It's not even #2 anymore.
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ProPHX
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:23 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 28):
PHX has long since ceased to be WN's largest station. It's not even #2 anymore.

Yes, you did say largest. Is PHX down to #3 or #4, or even lower?

Let the other cities have WN. They don't fly to Asia.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:42 am

Quoting ProPHX (Reply 29):
Is PHX down to #3 or #4, or even lower?

PHX is currently listed as #3 behind LAS and MDW.
I wouldn't be surprised to see MDW overtake LAS for WN in the very near future.

Quoting ProPHX (Reply 29):
Let the other cities have WN. They don't fly to Asia.

I'm no fan of WN by ~any~ standard, but PHX would be a farrrr lonelier airport without them. US' hub doesn't have anywhere near the scope to make up for the lacking revenue for that airport that a WN pullout would cause.
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itsnotfinals
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:45 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 30):
PHX is currently listed as #3 behind LAS and MDW.
I wouldn't be surprised to see MDW overtake LAS for WN in the very near future.



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 30):
I'm no fan of WN by ~any~ standard, but PHX would be a farrrr lonelier airport without them. US' hub doesn't have anywhere near the scope to make up for the lacking revenue for that airport that a WN pullout would cause.

both these comments have nothing to do with Asia, off topic.

PHX is growing regardless of WN

Phoenix is now the 5th largest metro area in the country. Also with the US merger there is *A synergy.

[Edited 2007-09-28 04:47:53]
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PHX Flyer
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:03 pm

PHX is indeed growing, with or without Southwest. Remember, WN and HP have been cohabitating here ever since the latter was conceived. The two do not compete directly on most of their routes. If Southwest were not here, the HP operation at PHX would simply be a lot bigger.
The revived discussion of Asia flights has been going on for at least 10 years, when the Chinese cultural and business center opened on 44h St. near the airport. Obviously, US as the hubbing carrier here is the natural candidate. However, access to the two most lucrative destinations, Tokyo and China (mainland) is still restricted by bilaterals and/or slot limitations. US took advantage of the slowly opening Chinese market, and that's certainly a good thing, even though they did not make PHX the first US gateway. Nonetheless, when (not if) China opens up further, this is certainly a possibility. A remote station like PEK would be more viable, if US had more than one flight a day there. It won't happen tomorrow, but it's likely to happen in the foreseeable future. The same is true for Tokyo. Because of the demise of TWA US does now qualify for a route authority to Japan (the bilateral limits the number o fllag carriers), however obtaining viable slots there would still be a major hurdle. Meanwhile, ANA and Asiana are indeed potential candidates, we'll see.
As far as the European routes are concerned:
The LTU flight was dropped because the airline had been taken over by Swissair, and soon after the new management began to meddle with the LTU network. Eventually Swissair went bust because of overexpansion, which they could not handle, and LTU was teetering on the brink of bankruptcy ever since. Finally, a couple of weeks ago Air Berlin put them out of their misery. God only knows, they may perhaps come back. I remember watching them board a MD11 once and 400 German tourists filling up the International Concourse.
British Airways is now consistently using a B747-400 on the route, without feed from US Airways or anyone else, and without a continuing leg to San Diego or elsewhere. So yes, I agree that BA is pretty strong now at PHX.
What LH does, remains to be seen, I'm not quite sure what the hold-up is there. Maybe the A340 is indeed not the most economical aircraft for long hauls out of PHX ... I also wouldn't be surprised to see KLM or Air France chime in some day.Their 767 and 777 may be better suited. And KLM in particular caters a lot to European tourists.
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phxplanes
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:51 pm

Quoting Golftango (Reply 15):
was about to say no need to call the poster a SCUMBAG for the question...then I realized it was his/her username!

lol I thought the same thing
 
Carpethead
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 5:30 pm

Curiously, is PHX 773ER capable?
DEN or PHX is probably two destinations NH is looking at for transpac expansion.
 
AlexPorter
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:30 pm

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 31):
Phoenix is now the 5th largest metro area in the country.

Do you have a source for this? I ask because in 2000, Phoenix ranked 14th, with 3.25 million people and a ten-year growth rate of 45.3%, the highest in the country for all metro areas with a population over 1.5 million in 2000. However, when this growth rate and that for the other top 25 metro areas in the nation, and extrapolate them seven years into the decade, Phoenix would be estimated at 4.28 million, moving up a ranking to 13th. Obviously the various growth rates could have changed dramatically since 2000 especially with the housing bubble, so that's why I ask if you have a source, because I'd be very interested in seeing updated data for metro area populations.
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BA744PHX
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:05 pm

Quoting AlexPorter (Reply 35):
Do you have a source for this? I ask because in 2000, Phoenix ranked 14th, with 3.25 million people and a ten-year growth rate of 45.3%, the highest in the country for all metro areas with a population over 1.5 million in 2000. However, when this growth rate and that for the other top 25 metro areas in the nation, and extrapolate them seven years into the decade, Phoenix would be estimated at 4.28 million, moving up a ranking to 13th. Obviously the various growth rates could have changed dramatically since 2000 especially with the housing bubble, so that's why I ask if you have a source, because I'd be very interested in seeing updated data for metro area populations.

I believe they meant that Phoenix (city) is now the 5th largest in the country population of 1,512,986 and metro ranking 13 at 4,039,182

city link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...United_States_cities_by_population
metro http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_o...s_primary_census_statistical_areas
 
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BA744PHX
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:26 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 34):
Curiously, is PHX 773ER capable?
DEN or PHX is probably two destinations NH is looking at for transpac expansion.

I think it would be a safe assumption if NH were to choose between the two it would most likely be DEN. PHX doesnt seem to have much luck in getting any international airlines even with being a Star hub
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:32 pm

Quoting BA744PHX (Reply 36):
I believe they meant that Phoenix (city) is

I did indeed, I did mean to say city.

Phoenix larger than PHL (City) as of July 2006 Phoenix was the 13th largest maetro area

Phoenix is within 4% of the size as the metro SF area in comparison.


Rank Metropolitan Statistical Area State(s) and/or Territory July 1, 2006
Population Estimate
1 New York–Northern New Jersey–Long Island NY–NJ–PA 18,818,536
2 Los Angeles–Long Beach–Santa Ana CA 12,950,129
3 Chicago–Naperville–Joliet IL–IN–WI 9,505,748
4 Dallas–Fort Worth–Arlington TX 6,003,967
5 Philadelphia–Camden–Wilmington PA–NJ–DE–MD 5,826,742
6 Houston–Sugar Land–Baytown TX 5,539,949
7 Miami–Fort Lauderdale–Pompano Beach FL 5,463,857
8 Washington–Arlington–Alexandria DC–VA–MD–WV 5,290,400
9 Atlanta–Sandy Springs–Marietta GA 5,138,223
10 Detroit–Warren–Livonia MI 4,468,966
11 Boston–Cambridge–Quincy MA–NH 4,455,217
12 San Francisco–Oakland–Fremont CA 4,180,027
13 Phoenix–Mesa–Scottsdale AZ 4,039,182
14 Riverside–San Bernardino–Ontario CA 4,026,135
15 Seattle–Tacoma–Bellevue WA 3,263,497
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Flighty
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:33 pm

PHX is in a crappy location for an Asia hub. It's just like MIA. or MEM. Too far south = poor connectivity within its own USA network. SFO, DEN are superior.

I do not predict any Asia-PHX flight for the next 10 years, even if Phoenix doubles in size. Not until the local corporate market matures, which will take many years. It's a big bedroom community, not a corporate powerhouse like IAH or ORD or even DEN.

Put it this way, SLC will get China flights before PHX. IMO.
 
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BA744PHX
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:42 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 39):
Put it this way, SLC will get China flights before PHX. IMO.

I find that one to far fetched, PHX can definately produce more O&D to any asia destination then SLC.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:44 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 39):
PHX is in a crappy location for an Asia hub. It's just like MIA. or MEM. Too far south = poor connectivity within its own USA network. SFO, DEN are superior.

"too far south has no meaning if you think in terms of the great cirlce routing.

PHX is the closest of the cities you mentioned to PEK. LAX is only 216 miles closer (< 30 minutes difference)


MIA PEK 6753 nm
MEM PEK 6076 nm
PHX PEK 5648 nm
PHL PEK 5977 nm

LAX PEK 5432 nm
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Flighty
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:28 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 41):
"too far south has no meaning if you think in terms of the great cirlce routing.

Sure it does. Think if we had to go to Mexico City to transit to Beijing. It adds hours of flight / fuel time. PHX sucks for the same reason. The great circle route USA-China is almost dead north. So to go to the Sonoran Desert on your way to China is out of the way.

Oh, if PHX becomes another IAH then it can support its own flight. I don't deny that. But that's 20 years away. PHX is weak on corporate presence.

Here are 2 examples for you:

MCI-PHX-PVG 7818 mi
MCI-SLC-PVG 7330 mi
MCI-SEA-PVG 7211 mi

SMF-PHX-PVG 7421 mi
SMF-SLC-PVG 6942 mi
SMF-SEA-PVG 6327 mi

How about Tucson... PHX or SEA better?

TUS-PHX-PVG 6885 mi
TUS-SEA-PVG 6937 mi

So PHX is better for Tucson, by 50 mi or so. For everything else, PHX would be an inferior transit point... and inferior O&D as well. PHX has a good network for connections but the geography problem is too limiting IMO.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:07 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 42):
Sure it does. Think if we had to go to Mexico City to transit to Beijing. It adds hours of flight / fuel time. PHX sucks for the same reason. The great circle route USA-China is almost dead north. So to go to the Sonoran Desert on your way to China is out of the way.

your logic is flawed.

People already fly MCI -ORD or MCI-LAX to get to PEK. etc. a connection is a connection, there is no additional fuel to PEK than any other connection.


I posted the great circle link, click on it. It's not out of the way.


PHX can't support an Asain flight right now from O&D but with *A feed maybe, the point is it not out of the question.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 42):
The great circle route USA-China is almost dead north. So to go to the Sonoran Desert on your way to China is out of the way

LAX is with 200 miles of PHX and lots of people fly from CLE, BOS etc to get PEK it's not any different.

[Edited 2007-09-28 19:30:56]
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itsnotfinals
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:22 am

The link didn't post earlier . JFK , PHL, LAX, PHX for comparison


http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=j...STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=&MAP-STYLE=



JFK PEK 5942 nm
PHL PEK 5977 nm
PHX PEK 5648 nm
LAX PEK 5432 nm

The "Southern" cities are 300-500 miles closer (approx) so southern west coast or northern east coast you are talking 40-55 minutes difference in flight time (zero wind)

[Edited 2007-09-28 21:25:14]

[Edited 2007-09-28 21:26:22]
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:13 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 44):

The "Southern" cities are 300-500 miles closer (approx) so southern west coast or northern east coast you are talking 40-55 minutes difference in flight time (zero wind)

Huh? I don't see where you are going with that....

Look at the map. Asia is straight north out of the USA. If you go East or West from your present location, you are wasting time and fuel. Let alone heading south... that's a double-waste of fuel.

A carrier gets $800 for a trip MCI-NRT.

MCI-PHX-NRT 6809 mi
MCI-DFW-NRT 6887 mi
MCI-EWR-NRT 7824 mi
MCI-LAX-NRT 6814 mi
MCI-MSP-NRT 6343 mi

RASM comparison: PHX, 11.75c; DFW, 11.61c; EWR, 10.22c; LAX, 11.74c; MSP, 12.61c.

So here, Northwest has an additional 8% profit margin or so over US in the MCI-NRT market. That's because MSP is straight north of MCI. PHX is straight north of nothing. So in Asian ops, PHX is a bit crippled.

We went through the same thing showing why ATL is a weak China gateway. So how about BOS-PVG through those 2... DTW vs ATL for an $800 fare

BOS-DTW-PVG 7769 mi
BOS-ATL-PVG 8605 mi

RASM comparison: DTW, 10.30c; ATL 9.30c

That's a tough pill to swallow particularly when pax are not eager to spend another 90-120 mins on your flight (likely depressing your fare 10% or more).

So there is a balance between southern O&D monsters like LAX and IAH, and northern hubs that are also fair-size (DTW). Southern mediocre hubs with weak O&D (like PHX) have little prospect to compete on these routes. NW and UA will just eat them.
 
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:41 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 45):
Look at the map. Asia is straight north out of the USA. If you go East or West from your present location, you are wasting time and fuel. Let alone heading south... that's a double-waste of fuel.

look at the great cirlce link, all the cities you mentioned marginally diffeent distances. Also you are pointing out cities where people would want to fly to another hub. PHX supports cities like ABQ, ELP, DEN, COS, MCI, ICT etc that are just as efficient as flying to LAX would be (even more) and much more so than DTW . PHL or JFK


with Hub and Spoke systems, keeping connection back tracking to a minimum is often hard to do. Many times Expedia Travelocity, and Orbitz and others will route a ticket completey out of the way for effective yeild but it doens't stop the airlines from offering cheap fares and putting the pricing in for them.

To stay on topic PHX to Asia, practical yes, probable? maybe, impossible, no

as far as your asia "Hub" comment, that also didn't make much sense.
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:02 am

Who asked the question about only losing 55 min by flying to LAX to connect to Asia? Do the math dude! you lose at least six hours! 1 hour min pre flight check in, 1 hr flight time, one hour to get to your check in counter, three hours to check in and join the rest of the mob coming from all over the world to do the same, get past TSA, wait for the flight that is going to be late, and board, sit on the plane while you wait to taxi, hold, and at last leave. When we started going direct non stop PHX to LGW the time was cut almost in half! No more LAX hustle... and man, what a difference! PHX to Asia will make some A/L trillions in the first year alone (almost) Over 400.000 Asian people live in metro Phoenix, and they are upwardly moble and make countless business as well as personal trips to Asia yearly.
 
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:31 am

Quoting SCUMBAG (Reply 47):
Who asked the question about only losing 55 min by flying to LAX to connect to Asia?

Read the posts. I did.

Quoting SCUMBAG (Reply 47):
Do the math dude!

I have, dude.

Quoting SCUMBAG (Reply 47):
you lose at least six hours! 1 hour min pre flight check in, 1 hr flight time, one hour to get to your check in counter, three hours to check in and join the rest of the mob coming from all over the world to do the same, get past TSA, wait for the flight that is going to be late, and board, sit on the plane while you wait to taxi, hold, and at last leave

Say flight leaves PHX at 1014 for LAX, arrives at 1141. Flight to NRT leaves at 1237, arrives 1555 (next day).

You get to airport at 0830 and check your bags all the way through to NRT (using UA here). Once through security, go to gate, get to LAX, change planes, off you go. 4 hours from the time you get to takeoff from LAX to NRT from when you got to the airport in PHX. How does that "screw you out of an entire day"? I am at Sky Harbor, Terminal 2, at least twice a week and 1.5 hours is enough time to check-in and get to the gate with any of the 5 airlines that serve T2 (UA, AC, AS, CO and ZK)

Point being, with PHX so close to LAX and SFO, you can make choices to how you connect and what times are best for you. 4 hours is nothing for international travel. Connecting through LAX and SFO "screws" you out of 4-6 hours. Not a whole day.

I did the math.

As for PHX and Asian flights, it will be some time, IMHO. PHX will always compete with the LAX for air travel, internationally. While PHX is a great city (14 years here, myself), it is secondary for int'l travel (albeit our lonely European flight). Look at Vegas. Vegas has more appeal than PHX (and Asians do gamble). SQ dropped their non-stop to HKG and JL dropped their non-stop (with the exception of the occasional charter).

Quoting SCUMBAG (Reply 47):
Over 400.000 Asian people live in metro Phoenix, and they are upwardly moble and make countless business as well as personal trips to Asia yearly

Apparently not enough for the likes of JL, OZ, SQ, MH, NH (to name a few) to have non stops.

[Edited 2007-09-29 02:57:11]
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RE: PHX To Asia? Any Chance?

Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:54 am

Quoting SCUMBAG (Reply 47):
When we started going direct non stop PHX to LGW the time was cut almost in half! No more LAX hustle... and man, what a difference! PHX to Asia will make some A/L trillions in the first year alone (almost) Over 400.000 Asian people live in metro Phoenix, and they are upwardly moble and make countless business as well as personal trips to Asia yearly.

Actually only 144,000 Asians live in the state of Arizona, and of that only 110,000 live in the Phoenix Metro as of 2006.

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet...&-_lang=en&-redoLog=false&-_sse=on

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