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B777ER
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BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:46 am

Here is an interesting question. BA uses Terminal 7 at JFK. JFK does not nor is planning any A380 capable gates at T7. JFK will/currently does have a total of 4 A380 gates at T4 (2 each at 4W and 4E) and Terminal 1 will be getting some for LH and AF. So I guess BA will really not have a choice and have to use the gates in T4. I guess if they do go to JFK with the A380, it begs the question..is it worth it setting up counter/office (bag claims office, etc...) at T4 for only 1 A380 op a day as others suggested BA will have only one A380 a day and the rest 777 and/or 744 which will use T7?
 
vv701
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:49 am

I do not think BA will want to operate the 380 into JFK. They have frequently stated that frequency for their premium class passengers on this route is theirumber one priority.
 
GDB
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:50 am

Internally, while BA has not announced any routes for A380, it has been inferred that routes to LAX, SFO, HKG, Jo'Berg and to India, are being seen as likely.
JFK was cited as being popular for frequency, implying 787.

But it's early days.
We've only just ordered them!
 
boeing743
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:51 am

Or BA will have to move to T4? is it possible or that terminal is full so BA can't move to T4?
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:53 am

In todays BA news the question was asked, what about JFK?
Robert Boyle's answer is..Frequency is more important on JFK as customers like the fact that we fly eight times a day. However if customer demand for the A380 is strong enough, we would consider it.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:01 am

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 4):
Frequency is more important on JFK as customers like the fact that we fly eight times a day. However if customer demand for the A380 is strong enough, we would consider it.

I highly doubt that BA will use an A380 for JFK. There is a rising probability of slot restrictions in years to come, and BA knows the advantages of being resident in a protected market. They are likely to increase frequencies rather than consolidate flights into larger aircraft.
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B747-4U3
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:02 am

BA won't be recieving the 380s until 2010, so there is still over 2 years to add 380 capable gates at Terminal 7 if BA choose to do so.

Quoting B777ER (Thread starter):
JFK does not nor is planning any A380 capable gates at T7

But that was before BA announced the 380 order. Things might change now that they have officially confirmed that they are recieving 380s.
 
gigneil
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:06 am

It just doesn't make any sense to operate the A380 to JFK when they have far more destinations with far more need for capacity.

I don't know about the 787, but keeping to 777s and 747s at the same frequency seems to be apropos.

NS
 
boysteve
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:10 am

Frequency is key here. Maybe the A380 could be used for a 10:30 & 13:00 departure from LHR and a 19:00 & 20:00 departure from JFK. However that is about it. An hourly frequency should be enough from JFK 1800 - 2300 fitting various aircraft sizes to match demand. BA may view half hourly services as wasted slots at LHR? Surely premium pax won't desert BA if they move to 18:00, 19:00, 20:00 etc and no longer offer 18:25, 19:00, 19:30, 20:01 and a 20:30 departue ex-JFK as BA.com shows today?
 
B747-4U3
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:14 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 7):
It just doesn't make any sense to operate the A380 to JFK when they have far more destinations with far more need for capacity.

I don't know about the 787, but keeping to 777s and 747s at the same frequency seems to be apropos.

I guess it depends how they rotate the aircraft around the system. If for example, after a longer 12hr flight from Hong Kong, they need a shorter 7hr flight so they can have extra time for maintenance before doing another 12hr trip, then JFK would make sense as it is probably the only destination in the 7hr range where they could fill a 380.

Maybe someone from BA could confirm this, but it seems to me that aircraft that are commonly used to Hong Kong are also commonly used to JFK. I can't remember the reg (I think it was G-BNL_...possibly N), but I always seem to get that aircraft to Hong Kong and JFK, even before HKG and JFK moved to T1. It would be interesting to see if some aircraft tend to get the same rotations again and again. If the 380 is used to HKG, it might be the case that it also turns up at JFK, even if it is for only 1 of the daily flights.
 
comorin
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:23 am

I was just watching the evening news on NBC talking about congestion at JFK and how the time has finally come for the FAA ( and Congress, I believe) to restrict slots. LHR too is in a similar predicament.

As a regular, I do like the flexibility that BA offers me on LHR-JFK flights, but I don't need flights leaving within 20 minutes of each other! Those flights are there because the equipment is not big enough to handle the late afternoon demand -has nothing to do with flexibility. Similarly the late night flights from SIN also almost leave in tandem.

There is clearly a need for more than one A380 on the JFK-LHR run. (While at it, I wish they'd add a late morning flight leaving 11 am for us sleepyheads.). My dream schedule would be:

ex JFK:

FatHead flights at 9 a.m. and 8 p.m.

ex LHR:

Fatties at 9.30 a.m. ( for inbound Asia traffic) and 5.30 p.m. for NYC commuters.


On another note, isn't BA's 4% annual growth projection awfully conservative as Asia awakens?
 
jfk777
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:30 am

BA 's terminal 7 at JFK could handle an A380 at gate 9, a gate on the United side of the building formerly used by their 744 from Tokyo before that service was eliminated. It is away from the 4 744 gates of the BA side of T7(gates 3,4,5,6), and the plane parks at an angle at the corner of the terminal. T7 is quite busy these days with Qantas, Cathay, Iberia and sub tennants.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:35 am

Quoting Comorin (Reply 10):
I was just watching the evening news on NBC talking about congestion at JFK and how the time has finally come for the FAA ( and Congress, I believe) to restrict slots.

 point This is exactly why BA would NOT want to reduce frequencies. When slot restrictions come, they will (most likely) be allocated based on current flights. The carriers with the most flights get the most slots. BA enjoys their position at LHR and would be very pleased to have similar protection at JFK.
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B777ER
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:39 am

Quoting Comorin (Reply 10):
As a regular, I do like the flexibility that BA offers me on LHR-JFK flights, but I don't need flights leaving within 20 minutes of each other! Those flights are there because the equipment is not big enough to handle the late afternoon demand -has nothing to do with flexibility.

I agree and this does go with what Walsh stated in his remarks about the A380 being needed for slot restricted LHR. If JFK goes that way, the A380 comes into the mix perfectly. After all, is this not what Airbus had in mind for the 380?
 
rjpieces
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:54 am

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but BA could use an A380 with their current JFK gates...They just wouldn't have multiple jetbridges for quicker boarding....Although they might have to put it on the United side of the terminal so as to not interfere with the many other 747s using the BA side...

But like others have said, this is very much down the road...
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fbgdavidson
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:01 am

Quoting Comorin (Reply 10):
As a regular, I do like the flexibility that BA offers me on LHR-JFK flights, but I don't need flights leaving within 20 minutes of each other! Those flights are there because the equipment is not big enough to handle the late afternoon demand -has nothing to do with flexibility. Similarly the late night flights from SIN also almost leave in tandem.

You can't have one without the other. Premium passengers require flexibility on LHR-JFK with flights spaced evenly throughout the day. If you throw in a handful of A380s to help things on the evening JFK-LHR rush and you're jigging around with the flexibility on LHR-JFK. The 5hr time difference going eastbound means you've only got a limited window for flights heading back to London.

The market for A380s for BA is fairly limited, you're looking at routes with more than one daily flight currently on a route long enough so that arriving/departing at certain times of the day isn't crucial. I doubt whether many business travellers fly LHR-LAX and go into work mode, whereas LHR-JFK it is much more likely. Routes good for A380: SIN, JNB, CPT, SFO, LAX, NRT, HKG, SYD
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ikramerica
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:02 am

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 6):
BA won't be recieving the 380s until 2010

2012, right?

Quoting Comorin (Reply 10):
I was just watching the evening news on NBC talking about congestion at JFK and how the time has finally come for the FAA ( and Congress, I believe) to restrict slots. LHR too is in a similar predicament.

BA is not the cause of JFK congestion. Any slot restrictions will likely involve size limits of aircraft similar to LGA, and would first be assessed to the biggest offenders, such as B6 and DL.

Remember, before the B6 and DL rampup the last couple of years, this was not an issue at JFK. Things weren't great, but they weren't this bad. Not talking about snow days, but regular summer ops.

BA didn't cause it.

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 12):
This is exactly why BA would NOT want to reduce frequencies. When slot restrictions come, they will (most likely) be allocated based on current flights. The carriers with the most flights get the most slots. BA enjoys their position at LHR and would be very pleased to have similar protection at JFK.

Not to mention BA wants to start flying 787s between JFK and continental europe, so they need all the "slots they can get."

These first 12 A380s will not go to JFK, not even as a substitution. But who knows what the future will bring?
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comorin
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:11 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 12):
This is exactly why BA would NOT want to reduce frequencies.

Thank you for clarifying that - that makes sense!

Quoting Fbgdavidson (Reply 15):
You can't have one without the other. Premium passengers require flexibility on LHR-JFK with flights spaced evenly throughout the day.

You've pointed that out before, and I couldn't agree more. It's also nice to know that if you miss a flight there's others. However, don't you think replacing two flights within 20 mts of each other with one helps the cause? Though I note there are no such flights in the current BA LHR schedule. Ah, the days of plodding my weary way home on BA179...

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 16):
These first 12 A380s will not go to JFK, not even as a substitution. But who knows what the future will bring?

But isn't JFK-LHR the ultimate prestige flight? Wouldn't BA want to out do everyone else with its shiny BA new Ocean Liner in the Sky? Maybe even an F+ offering? I certainly don't want to pull up at a gate in JFK in a rinky-dink plane while VS and others make their grand entrances.
 
APYu
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:18 am

While many on here comment on the 380 being for LAX, SIN, NRT etc, it will for sure be used on a number of 'shorter' haul legs for a period of months of crew training before it ends up on the flught it has been purchased for.
Several LHR runs within 8 hours flying time will see from lon before any NRT and SIN. Im not sure on airport readiness but many of the frequent but short legs such as DXB, JFK, BOS may see it for a period of months before it gets time to stretch its legs.
It was fab to try out the 777 back in the 1990s on the CDG run. That was my only 777 experience till ORD in April 2007, funnily enough the same aircraft ZZZC
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globeex
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:04 pm

BA would definately not substitute 3 744s with 2 A380..... But if they see that the need for capacity is there, I could see 1 or 2 744 flights being substituted by A380s. No one ever claimed that BA will reduce flights if they would start operating A380s.
Personally I can't see BA operating the 787 into JFK.... maybe one or two flights,... but at the moment BA is operation all except one flight with 744 (why is no one talking about frequency problems here... I mean they could have 12 772 flights.... just kidding). But honestly,... I personally can't really see BA operating a lot more flights from LHR to JFK for frequency reasons. Looking at the current timetable one will quickly notice that you really can't increase felxibilty a lot more, as the windows that allow flights between JFK and LHR are pretty limited. On the LHR bound flight you probably would end up adding a flight between flights which depart at 7:40 and 8:15. Okay on the JFK bound flights its a little bit different, but all daytimes are pretty good covered.
What I'm trying to say is that I think BA won't add more than one or two flights due to offer better felxibilty for their customers. If they add more flights it might have some fleetmanagement reasons. If they could afford to offer A380 flights to JFK (fleetmanagement-wise and capacity-wise) they will do it.


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comorin
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:23 pm

Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 19):
BA would definately not substitute 3 744s with 2 A380..

Last night, on CNN International ( the good CNN) , Willie Walsh specifically said that 2 380s would replace the 3 744 flights out of HKG as an example of its benefits. It was a really good interview and there may be a video of it on cnn.com.
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:36 pm

Quoting B777ER (Thread starter):
Here is an interesting question. BA uses Terminal 7 at JFK. JFK does not nor is planning any A380 capable gates at T7. JFK will/currently does have a total of 4 A380 gates at T4 (2 each at 4W and 4E) and Terminal 1 will be getting some for LH and AF. So I guess BA will really not have a choice and have to use the gates in T4.

The answer is really quite simple:

BA own T7 at JFK, thus until yesterday there was never any reason to add A380 capable gates. If in future BA decide that JFK will be an A380 destination, its up to them to pay for and install the necessary airbridges.
 
globeex
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:22 pm

Quoting Comorin (Reply 20):
Last night, on CNN International ( the good CNN) , Willie Walsh specifically said that 2 380s would replace the 3 744 flights out of HKG as an example of its benefits. It was a really good interview and there may be a video of it on cnn.com.

That might be, but I was talking about the runs to JFK.... they might substitute 3 744 by 2 A380 if the would like to add another flight from JFK to somewhere else. But I think, that won't happen before the order more A380s, which surely will happen.


GlobeEx
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Rivet42
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:55 pm

Quoting APYu (Reply 18):
t will for sure be used on a number of 'shorter' haul legs for a period of months of crew training before it ends up on the flught it has been purchased for.

 checkmark  That's good point.

But forget JFK! That just won't happen unless/until BA decide to extend the JFK gates at their own ecxpense to accomoate the A.380.

The obvious routes for crew training will be places like FRA, where BA share 'their' terminal with other A380 operators, and maybe DXB, which might be closer in applicable loads. Remember that T5 will also need modifying before the whales arrive, so this lovely new terminal is going to become a building site again shortly after opening...  crazy 

Riv'
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Bongodog1964
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:10 pm

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 23):
Remember that T5 will also need modifying before the whales arrive, so this lovely new terminal is going to become a building site again shortly after opening...

I'm sure it has been stated on here that T5 will have some A380 compatible gates from day 1; or was this a case of the stand being large enough ?
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:27 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 24):
I'm sure it has been stated on here that T5 will have some A380 compatible gates from day 1; or was this a case of the stand being large enough ?

T5 has 14 A380 sized stands. Four of these stands have double A380 airbridges. BA is talking to BAA about increasing the number of A380 stands and double airbridges before the A380s are delivered.
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ltbewr
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:34 pm

How about EWR? Will EWR have A380 gates available? I believe BA has several flights to EWR daily, including with 777's. That way they could expand capacity as what is already a slot tight airport yet expand the total # of pax capacity in the NYC Metro area.
 
globeex
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:23 am

Well for crewtraining its well possible that we'll see BA's A380 at JFK, DXB and ORD, which are the largest intercon. markets out of LHR.
Maybe some airports in Europe, but there, the only one I could imagine would indeed be FRA.... can't imagine that they would use it to AMS or CDG,... so guess, FRA might be the only airport in Europe, where I could imagine seeing one of BAs A380.....
How about MAN as a substitute? LHR-MAN has occasionally seen BAs 744 and 772.... so why not for crewtraining?!


GlobeEx
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B777ER
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:21 am

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 23):
Remember that T5 will also need modifying before the whales arrive, so this lovely new terminal is going to become a building site again shortly after opening



Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 25):
T5 has 14 A380 sized stands. Four of these stands have double A380 airbridges. BA is talking to BAA about increasing the number of A380 stands and double airbridges before the A380s are delivered.

Also, the first of two satelite buildings will have A380 gates as well I believe and the first one opens I believe in 2010.
 
ikramerica
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:41 am

Quoting Comorin (Reply 17):
But isn't JFK-LHR the ultimate prestige flight?

Why do people insist that the A380 is all about prestige. Well, I know why, since that's why Airbus built it even though nobody will admit THAT part of it.

But BA didn't buy it for prestige. If they cared about prestige, they would have been a launch customer and talked about the plane for 5 years now like SQ did.

They bought it for specific reasons. Consolidating/expanind long range flights with limited flight envelopes, caused by the silly operations of LHR (curfew and slot restrictions/lack of runways). Thus, as Walsh has said, west coast USA and Asia and South Africa. Their longest routes where frequency is not as important.

Quoting Comorin (Reply 20):
Last night, on CNN International ( the good CNN) , Willie Walsh specifically said that 2 380s would replace the 3 744 flights out of HKG as an example of its benefits. It was a really good interview and there may be a video of it on cnn.com

Absolutely. Which is a decrease in capacity.  Wow! But they can also add a 787 on days they want more lift...  Wink

I would imagine a route like LAX would still see 3 frequencies. 787 at 3pm, A380 at 5pm, A380 at 9pm, or something like that. Otherwise, it's a cut in capacity just to go with 2 A380s.
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GDB
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:57 am

We'll really have to wait to rather nearer the A380's 2012 delivery, but from the limited internal comment on routes, it's really more about asian ones plus potentially the US West coast.
So linking it with JFK is perhaps missing the point of buying it.
 
Rivet42
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:02 am

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 25):
Four of these stands have double A380 airbridges.

Excellent - I stand (sorry!) corrected!  Smile

Am hoping to be involved in the passenger trials next month, so will hopefully see for myself...

As for the crew training flights, I would expect them to be within Europe, in order to get the required experience by the required number of crew as quickly as possible. That rules out anywhere as far as NYC, as that would be a rather inefficient way of achieving the same thing. Besides FRA, what other airports around Europe do BA fly to where they already use a terminal likely to be A380-ready...?

Riv'
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ikramerica
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:10 am

Quoting Rivet42 (Reply 31):
Besides FRA, what other airports around Europe do BA fly to where they already use a terminal likely to be A380-ready...?

NCE...  Wink

And it only has to be A380 ready in 2011-2012, not now. In four years, there will be more airports.
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EGTESkyGod
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:30 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 2):
it has been inferred that routes to LAX, SFO, HKG, Jo'Berg and to India, are being seen as likely

How about SYD? Seems that the Kangaroo route would be ideal for the A380...?
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ikramerica
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting EGTESkyGod (Reply 33):
How about SYD? Seems that the Kangaroo route would be ideal for the A380...?

Sure is. That's why QF will fly it and BA will code share it...  Wink

Expect BA to put 787s into Australia instead, to more cities. BA would be very likely to want a longer range 787 to do nonstops, and sell seats on this route along with QF. It's only a matter of when.
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B747-4U3
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 29):
Absolutely. Which is a decrease in capacity. But they can also add a 787 on days they want more lift...

Not necessarilly!

HKG will get a daily Hi J 744 and 2 daily Mid J 744s

I believe that is 337+337+291...so 965 seats per day.

If they reduced that to a double daily 380, to keep the same number of daily seats they would have to be fitted with 485 seats.

485 seats on a 380 is not that unreasonable given that BA have quite a tight economy class and can therefore squeeze more seats in. I think Qantas are planning on 450 seats or so (don't know the exact figure) but I believe their business class seats will be bigger than BA's current ones and I think they have a greater pitch in Y.
 
comorin
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:11 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 29):
Absolutely. Which is a decrease in capacity.

3 744s capacity (100% load factor) = 291*3= 873 seats
2 A380s capacity at 100% load = 450*2 = 900 seats

(BA configs above)


So you could say that 2 A380s actually does not impact capacity.

However, if the load factor on the 3 744 flights is 90%,

Then seats used = 787

and 2 A380's would fly the same load at 787/900 = 87% load factor.


So how do you like them freakonomics?  Wink
 
ikramerica
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:02 pm

Quoting Comorin (Reply 36):
3 744s capacity (100% load factor) = 291*3= 873 seats
2 A380s capacity at 100% load = 450*2 = 900 seats

People are always using the high J configuration of BA to prove a point. Why do people do that?

Don't you know that doing so would require the 2 A380s to have 210 J seats combined, or 105 per aircraft? Not to mention 42 F seats (21 per aircraft). And 90 Y+.

If you put 21F/105J/45Y+ on an A380, you are not going to fit 450 seats total. You are not going to fit 280Y seats on a plane configured like that, at least with modern premium fittings. At least I don't think so.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 35):
I believe that is 337+337+291...so 965 seats per day.

That's more realistic. But would they be cutting J and F capacity by doing this?

The A380 would have to have 21F/73J/51Y+ to keep the same premium count. That would mean about 305Y seats, which seems doable. They'd be cutting 65 Y seats on the route, but is that so bad?

But I don't know of anyone putting 21F seats on their A380s. So the alternative is that they don't have as much F and J on the A380, but add a 787 on days they know traditionally have more premium demand to capture it.
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comorin
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:26 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 37):
People are always using the high J configuration of BA to prove a point. Why do people do that?

Don't you know that doing so would require the 2 A380s to have 210 J seats combined, or 105 per aircraft? Not to mention 42 F seats (21 per aircraft). And 90 Y+.

Point well taken. I used those numbers from an online article to better understand the issue. I'm not an aviation expert, just a curious dabbler!
 
theginge
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:47 pm

I imagine what will happen with crew training for the A380 is that the pilots selected to be the training pilots will move to the airbus fleet for a bit if they are on another type to gain experience with the Airbus cockpit philosophy. It has happened where the initial 777 pilots moved to 744 before it was introduced to get similar experience.

I would be surprised if BA used the A380 on european routes for crew training. I think they would use them on US east coast flights for a few months to familise the crews. I don;t think there will be need for much more than that as as far as I have heard one airbus aircraft is similar to fly to another due to the way airbus have designed the systems. I was once told that the only way an A330/340 pilot could tell the difference betwen them was the number of thrust levers!!

To the original point of the post about BA's A380 and JFK I think at most there would be 1 or 2 A380 trips a day with BA still maintaining the high frequency using smaller aircraft such as the 787, 777 and whats left of the 744 fleet.

[Edited 2007-09-29 14:49:17]

[Edited 2007-09-29 14:52:02]
 
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RayChuang
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:47 pm

I think BA will NOT fly the A380-800 to JFK because BA values more flight frequency than capacity on this route. They're just assign more newer-build 747-400's on this route to increase capacity, and some of those 744's will get substantial premium class upgrades.

However, on routes from LHR to LAX/SFO, BA will probably switch to the A388, since they fly to these two cities only a few times per day.
 
APYu
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:00 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 32):
As for the crew training flights, I would expect them to be within Europe, in order to get the required experience by the required number of crew as quickly as possible. That rules out anywhere as far as NYC, as that would be a rather inefficient way of achieving the same thing.

Whilst the intra europe flights are great for getting the pilots trained they are not an effective way of getting the cabin crew used to the service routines on a new aircraft. 20 hosties tossing out All Day Deli boxes and Birdseed to 500+ people on a 90 minute sector is not the same as operating a 3 class and two meal service operation. You need sectors with some length to do this.
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zeke
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:21 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 7):
It just doesn't make any sense to operate the A380 to JFK when they have far more destinations with far more need for capacity.

Just about every time I have been to JFK, I have been parked between 2 BA 744s, granted that route is one of the slower growing ones, I would never rule out out growing a 744 for some frequencies.

Quoting Boysteve (Reply 8):
Frequency is key here. Maybe the A380 could be used for a 10:30 & 13:00 departure from LHR and a 19:00 & 20:00 departure from JFK. However that is about it. An hourly frequency should be enough from JFK 1800 - 2300 fitting various aircraft sizes to match demand.

Spot on, various types, depending on the demand for the time of day, start new frequencies with a lower capacity aircraft, and when necessary, use a bigger aircraft.

Quoting GlobeEx (Reply 19):
BA would definately not substitute 3 744s with 2 A380..... But if they see that the need for capacity is there, I could see 1 or 2 744 flights being substituted by A380s. No one ever claimed that BA will reduce flights if they would start operating A380s.

I note what WW said on CNN, but I think they will keep their frequencies, on the HKG route for example I could seem them operating the 744, 788/9, A380 on the 3 frequencies, as the route grows, increase the capacity either by replacing the 789 with a 744, or the 744 with an A380.

Quoting B747-4U3 (Reply 35):
485 seats on a 380 is not that unreasonable given that BA have quite a tight economy class and can therefore squeeze more seats in. I think Qantas are planning on 450 seats or so (don't know the exact figure) but I believe their business class seats will be bigger than BA's current ones and I think they have a greater pitch in Y.

I know from sitting in the different classes in the 525 config aircraft, the E/Y seat pitch is still very generous. With the seat infront reclined back, I still had 4-5" of space to the seat infront with my knees (I am taller than average), if BA is looking at 75 seats less in their configuration, it should be still be very roomy compared to their 744/787 E/Y product.
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B747-4U3
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 42):
I note what WW said on CNN, but I think they will keep their frequencies, on the HKG route for example I could seem them operating the 744, 788/9, A380 on the 3 frequencies, as the route grows, increase the capacity either by replacing the 789 with a 744, or the 744 with an A380.

I think they will keep their frequencies too! HKG is already extremely busy. Yes, flights often leave with 50 empty seats, but they often leave completely full too. By the time the 380s arrive, I think the HKG route would have grown sufficiently to support at least 2 daily 380s + an additional 787, 772 or 744.
 
theginge
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Sun Sep 30, 2007 6:23 am

Quoting APYu (Reply 41):
Whilst the intra europe flights are great for getting the pilots trained they are not an effective way of getting the cabin crew used to the service routines on a new aircraft. 20 hosties tossing out All Day Deli boxes and Birdseed to 500+ people on a 90 minute sector is not the same as operating a 3 class and two meal service operation. You need sectors with some length to do this

You don't need to leave the ground to test cabin procedures. All of that can be done on the ground over and over again without the expense of flying the thing just for that!
 
APYu
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:55 pm

Quoting Theginge (Reply 44):
You don't need to leave the ground to test cabin procedures. All of that can be done on the ground over and over again without the expense of flying the thing just for that!

True - such ground tests will be done early but then its common to follow these things up with true tests in the air with those all important and unpredictable factors - the passengers! Getting your crews used to real operations with a new long haul type is easier on a 6 or 7 hour real operation then having a new crew operate an 11 - 12 hour Hong Kong as their first sector on the type. It also tests your ground handling operations quicker as you get through multiple sectors in a short space of time. These tests allow for the refinement of the best made plans which were made on the ground
Ground tests - even choc full of volunteers - are no substitute for getting the thing in the air. It also allows your cabin crews to build up confidence with a new type.

Note - there would be no 'expense' of flying the thing as it would be in revenue earning service at the same time.

When the 777 was introduced, the first long haul routes it was allocated to were some of the shortest on the BA network (Cairo, Dubai and Muscat), that was once enough Flight crews had taken the thing to CDG and back to get comfortable in flying the thing. When the 744 was introduced they didn't just send that straight down to Sydney. It was broken in on the north atlantic. Its first destinations were Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Montreal, Detroit in 1989 and didn't make it to Australia till the summer of 1991.
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:45 pm

Have people forgotten how many A380s BA have ordered on here? They only went for 12 and they are talking of using them on their longest routes where due to time differences frequency isn't a practical selling point and therefore capacity is if you don't want lots of flights all leaving at a similar time. BA's HKG flights all depart within a small timeframe and rather than add a fourth in four years that again follows that time slot instead add a bigger aircraft.

NRT/SIN/HKG/JNB/SFO and LAX are all the sort of 12 hour + flights that using an aircraft like the A380 makes sense on. Sao Paulo could be a future contender, depending what BA does with South Amercia (787 direct flights to Rio and Buenos Aires perhaps?) that would allow a 744 to be used on a Sao Paulo terminater.

BA's East Coast North Atlantic flights are all about frequency rather than capacity. We have Open skies coming next year and it's probably more likely we'll see 777s appearing on more JFK runs if DL and CO operating into LHR start eating into BA's Y passenger loads (Though the Hi-J 744s would still be needed).

The other thing is BA has indicated the 787 won't just be a 767 replacement (24 for 14 aircraft indicates this) but that it will be used to open up South American and Asian routes. That could link in with Rio and Buenos Aires getting LHR nonstop flights, while in Asia it could allow BA to return to Kuala Lumpur, plus look at places like Ho Cho Minh City or smaller Chinese and Japanese destinations where they can offer a few frequencies a week on an aircraft designed to do it.

What we still haven't seen from BA is a decision on what will be the direct replacement in their fleet for the 772s and remaining 744s. The A380 and 787 order is about 767 replacement, opening new Asian and South American (and maybe African) routes that need a small longhaul aircraft a few times a week, plus adding capacity on the 12 hour + routes where frequency (i.e. several daily flights) is not a selling point.
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RIX
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 46):
we still haven't seen from BA is a decision on what will be the direct replacement in their fleet for the 772s and remaining 744s

- like I wrote in another thread, it looks like new BA strategy does not need direct replacement of 744. Exactly as you said above, 380 will be put to routes with high capacity where frequency is not possible/reasonable. Everything else is going to be mid-size twins. It is yet to be seen what happens if/when BA notice that even 773 or so capacity is still not enough - quite likely for JFK, I don't quite understand how they're going to do without 744 capacity there when all are gone, it will be direct downgrade in size. Then, either they use some of 7 optional 380s there, or, indeed, they already predict that it all will change with open skies, and no such capacity, especially in economy, will be needed.

As for 772 replacement - forget about it, it's not happening this time. They just ordered 4 more - meaning, 777 is there to stay for quite a long while. It's 767 and 747 that are leaving, but 777 is a part of the whole picture of what future BA fleet is going to look like. Together with 787 and 380 and, if ordered, 350.
 
theginge
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:19 pm

I think as long as BA keep their premium capcity they won't mind losing a bit of the Y market to other airlines. The market will probably become a bit saturated with open skies so 777's & 787's on the route with increased frequencies shouldn't pose too much problem.

Don't forget that as BA own approx 40% of LHR slots they can increase JFk flights where others can;t under open skies so they keep the advantage to the businessman of having multiple flights where other airlines can't so losing the 744 on the route shouldn't pose them any problems.
 
RIX
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RE: BA A380 And JFK

Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:27 pm

Yep, that's apparently is how it's going to work.

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