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AA777ER
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American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:16 am

http://www.apanegotiations.com/Home/tabid/36/Default.aspx





In April of 2003, the pilots of American Airlines ratified a concessionary contract with the goal of keeping our company out of bankruptcy.



AMR's position in 2003 was partially the result of the collapse of the airline industry in the wake of 9/11. However, a series of disastrous decisions by AMR management- from ill-advised purchases and attempted purchases of other carriers to poor marketing decisions to expensive stock buy-backs- exacerbated our company's financial woes.



The pilots of American Airlines stepped up and saved the AMR corporation from impending financial disaster with a series of massive concessions. This contract provided the AMR corporation with an estimated $1 billion in annual savings in the areas of pay, productivity, and benefits. Some pilots suffered pay cuts as severe as 50%- all American pilots, who had not enjoyed a pay raise since 2000, suffered tremendous personal and financial hardship.



At the time the contract was ratified, the pilots were assured that they would share in any future successes of the company that they preserved.



Within a year of the 2003 crisis, AMR was back on firm financial footing, paying down debt, restoring the balance sheet, and building a large cash cushion.



Management pay was restored to pre-2003 levels by late 2004 and bonus plans took effect.



As AMR became profitable in 2006, the top 1000 managers began to receive bonuses that would total over 250 million dollars by April of 2007, with the majority going to the top 50 managers. In 2006, the top 5 AMR managers received $33.9 million in compensation, 29% more than the next highest management team in the industry. At the same time, the pilots have not shared in the recovery of our airline as promised.



The pilots of American Airlines as represented by the Allied Pilots Association are presently in contract negotiations with AMR. The APA has set a goal of recovering the investment made in 2003, with a focus on the following areas:



Hourly pay rates that restore lost purchasing power
Recovery and improvement of work rules
Preservation and enhancement of retirement benefits
Variable compensation that provides a true stake in future success


To date, the AMR corporation seems unwilling to entertain any proposals that do not constitute further concessions.



The APA Negotiations Web site will provide factual information related the the ongoing negotiations, updates on the status of the negotiations via email, and a point of contact for additional questions.



Thank you for your interest in the contract negotiations between APA and AMR





Did You Know....





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AMR managers received over $260 million in bonuses between April 2006 and April 2007. If divided amongst the pilots this would equal an average pay raise of approximately 22% over that two year period.

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Current American Airlines pilot hourly pay rates are approximately equal to 1992 pay rates. AMR management compensation has increased over 700% in the same time frame.

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American Airlines pilots would need a 49% percent pay raise to recover 1992 purchasing power.

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American Airlines flew 4.2% fewer block hours in 2006 than in 2000 with 30% fewer pilots. American pilots fly over 20% more now than they did 6 years ago.

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American Airlines pilots received less than one hundred dollars each (after taxes) in performance bonuses during the 2006-2007 period.

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American pilots spend 15% more time away from home than they did in 2001.

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American Airlines International reserve pilots are required to be on call to the company for 19 days per month, 24 hours a day.



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American Airlines pilots produced 9.2% more domestic revenue passenger miles per pilot and $600,000 more in revenue per pilot than Southwest pilots in 2006, according to Department of Transportation Statistics.

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American Airlines has finished an average of 8th out of 11 industry competitors in Survey America comparisons over the last four years. Pilot performance bonuses are heavily based on these statistics- management bonuses are not.

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American Airlines currently holds approximately $6 Billion in unrestricted cash and has one of the strongest balance sheets in the airline industry.

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American Airlines pilots must requalify every nine months by completing an extensive series of emergency scenarios in advanced aircraft simulators. Failure to do so results in termination.

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Airline Captains, and those First Officers who have Pilot-in-Command responsibility, must requalify medically every six months. Failure to meet stringent standards means removal from flight status.

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Only a small number of airports have the facilities that allow an airliner to "land itself" using the autopilot. The vast majority of poor weather approaches are completed by pilots "hand-flying."

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Pilots avoid thunderstorms and other hazardous weather themselves through the use of airborne weather radar. Correct radar technique takes years of experience to perfect. The energy in a typical summer thunderstorm is more than sufficient to severely damage or destroy an airliner.

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The average AA pilot has over ten years of specialized education, including military, corporate, and/or airline flying experience, prior to being hired at American.

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Between January and July of 2007, American Airlines had 205 flights that were delayed more than three hours between gate departure and takeoff, 57% more than the airline with the next highest number of delayed flights.

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In June of 2007, American Airlines had an on-time arrival rate of 57%, last in a comparison with industry competitors.

[Edited 2007-10-01 18:21:40]
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:20 am

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter):
Pilots avoid thunderstorms and other hazardous weather themselves through the use of airborne weather radar. Correct radar technique takes years of experience to perfect. The energy in a typical summer thunderstorm is more than sufficient to severely damage or destroy an airliner.

Even a PPL knows this information, that doens't require a 200,000 dollar salary to figure out.

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter):
Only a small number of airports have the facilities that allow an airliner to "land itself" using the autopilot. The vast majority of poor weather approaches are completed by pilots "hand-flying."

yes 1000's of people fly non-EFIS C172's, King Airs, etc etc every day to uncontrolled fields , amazing there aren't more crashes.

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter):
Airline Captains, and those First Officers who have Pilot-in-Command responsibility, must requalify medically every six months. Failure to meet stringent standards means removal from flight status

So does the 24K a year regional pilot

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter):
American Airlines pilots must requalify every nine months by completing an extensive series of emergency scenarios in advanced aircraft simulators. Failure to do so results in termination

So does the 24K a year regional pilot



It's economics, real wage appreciation is down in many industries not just in aviation.

[Edited 2007-10-01 18:25:40]
 
AA777ER
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:33 am

WRONG........................................



SWA AVG Pilot wages in 2000................................$110,000


SWA AVG Pilot Wages in 2006...............................$165,000

[Edited 2007-10-01 18:42:08]
 
contrails
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Web

Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:36 am

I'm not pro-union, and never have been. I don't support most of what the union is wanting, and I don't agree with their arguments; but when I hear of executive bonuses it makes my blood boil. This is a problem in many industries today, and it is repulsive and disgusting.

I can support the pilots on this issue, if nothing else. I hope a strike can be averted, but wouldn't want to make odds on it. I only ask that you get this resolved before Thanksgiving, and not hold your loyal pax hostage over this during the busiest travel period of the year.
 
AA777ER
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:39 am

WRONG.............................Very Profitable Southwest Airlines Pilot Pay 2000-2006



SWA AVG Pilot wages in 2000................................$110,000


SWA AVG Pilot Wages in 2006...............................$165,000

[Edited 2007-10-01 18:41:11]

[Edited 2007-10-01 18:44:32]

[Edited 2007-10-01 18:45:55]

[Edited 2007-10-01 18:46:38]
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 2):
WRONG........................................

RIGHT...The WN pilots are way more efficient than AA pilots and are able to generate more income.

But they still didn't get much of a raise.


165,000 in 2006 is 140,937 in 2000 dollars. which means average pay increase of 4.7 % in inflation adjusted dollars per year.



http://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/data/us/calc/

[Edited 2007-10-01 18:48:39]
 
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fxramper
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:47 am

Hopefully, Lloyd Hill can get you guys that 30.5% increase in pay.  yes 
 
AA777ER
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:56 am

Wrong .....................Again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Airline Industry Select a New Industry


1-33 of 33 companies. Data as of 9/28/2007

Ticker Name TTM Sales $ 3 Yr. Sales Growth Rate% 5 Yr. Sales Growth Rate%
MktCap Weighted Average 13,844.599 19.76 15.45


AKH Air France - KLM (ADR) 33,022.355 23.35 12.97
DLAKY Deutsche Lufthansa AG (ADR) 31,048.410 3.92 1.79
AMR AMR Corporation 22,550.000 8.96 3.53
UAUA UAL Corporation 19,348.000 9.01 3.69
DAL Delta Air Lines, Inc. 18,041.000 6.27 4.35
BAIRY British Airways plc (ADR) 17,688.406 3.46 -1.70
CAL Continental Airlines, Inc. 13,563.000 13.41 7.92
NWA Northwest Airlines Corporation 12,441.000 7.64 4.88
LCC US Airways Group, Inc. 11,641.000 65.02 SA)">NA
LUV Southwest Airlines Co. 9,399.000 15.24 10.34
KLMR KLM Royal Dutch Airlines (ADR) 8,828.716 -5.48 -.57
ZNH China Southern Airlines Limited (ADR) 6,684.030 38.31 22.32
CEA China Eastern Airlines Corp. Ltd. (ADR) 5,272.417 37.34 25.27
TAM TAM S.A. (ADR) 4,248.406 25.97 SA)">NA
ALK Alaska Air Group, Inc. 3,389.800 10.90 9.14
RYAAY Ryanair Holdings plc (ADR) 3,360.925 27.70 29.09
SKYW SkyWest, Inc. 3,225.413 51.94 38.93
LFL Lan Airlines S.A. (ADR) 3,216.697 22.79 16.26
JBLU JetBlue Airways Corporation 2,599.000 33.27 49.13
GOL GOL Linhas Aereas Inteligentes SA (ADR) 2,330.313 39.50 75.18
AAI AirTran Holdings, Inc. 2,065.470 27.26 23.25
XJT ExpressJet Holdings, Inc. 1,661.632 8.60 11.37
AAWW Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, Inc. 1,501.753 2.18 SA)">NA
MESA Mesa Air Group, Inc. 1,377.054 30.62 20.64
FRNT Frontier Airlines Holdings, Inc. 1,213.656 22.07 21.34
RJET Republic Airways Holdings Inc. 1,212.177 32.42 36.79
CPA Copa Holdings, S.A. 946.013 35.55 SA)">NA
HA Hawaiian Holdings, Inc. 910.838 78.15 7.74
PNCL Pinnacle Airlines Corp. 793.564 21.76 32.48
MEH Midwest Air Group, Inc. 697.178 20.06 7.75
VGDAQ Vanguard Airlines 126.219 4.42 11.60
GLUX Great Lakes Aviation, Ltd. 90.247 4.96 -2.89
MAIR MAIR Holdings, Inc. 24.999 -61.90 -43.53
 
AA777ER
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:01 am

Quoting FXramper (Reply 6):

Capt Hill......................."30.5% Increase will NOT CUT IT "
 
incitatus
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:03 am

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter):
American Airlines pilots produced 9.2% more domestic revenue passenger miles per pilot and $600,000 more in revenue per pilot than Southwest pilots in 2006, according to Department of Transportation Statistics

It would seem that this feat, if accurate, would not be due to pilot competence. It actually reflects very well on management competence.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 7):
Ticker Name TTM Sales $ 3 Yr. Sales Growth Rate% 5 Yr. Sales Growth Rate%
MktCap Weighted Average 13,844.599 19.76 15.45

Very wrong...

This information is about sales growth, not wage growth, 2 different things.

Also, Market Cap has nothing to do with wages, other than market cap goes up when stocks perform, which means profit, which usually means less labor cost.

These numbers are not a very good argument for increasing wages (costs) because the market cap would be negatively impacted, and potentially growth because cost of capitol is higher for less profitable companies.

My quote was about wage appreciation not about this 3yr, 5 yr and market cap.


every domestic US industry other than Healthcare is having wage pressure.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 9):
It would seem that this feat, if accurate, would not be due to pilot competence. It actually reflects very well on management competence.

yep and so would:

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter):
American Airlines flew 4.2% fewer block hours in 2006 than in 2000 with 30% fewer pilots. American pilots fly over 20% more now than they did 6 years ago.

How much of this extra time was due to ATC delays, weather, and other things beyond management control?

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter):
American Airlines pilots produced 9.2% more domestic revenue passenger miles per pilot and $600,000 more in revenue per pilot than Southwest pilots in 2006, according to Department of Transportation Statistics.

Is this including Eagle? this is a scheduling and equipment management improvement. How did the pilots produce more RPM's (other than the work rule changes)? another non-sensical argument. Fares have also risen during this time but so have costs. That has been very well documented.

Also: 600K of increased REVENUE (not profit) to cover 585,000 in more costs (or more). again. has nothing to do with pilots.

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter):
American Airlines currently holds approximately $6 Billion in unrestricted cash and has one of the strongest balance sheets in the airline industry.


Again, planning and fiscal responsibility.

I am a licenced pilot (over 20 years) and I respect AA's pilots very much (I know a few personally), and I don't belittle the skill and professionalism it takes to fly safely and consistently in today's aviation system.

These union arguments are grasping at straws plain and simple. there is no "I" in Team and unfortunately most MEC's (AA's and others) seem to forget that fact.

[Edited 2007-10-01 20:04:42]
 
AA777ER
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:20 am

The AA Pilots have saved AMR over $6 Billion Dollars over the last 4 Years.............................


1) $3 Billion in Wage and work rules.


2) $500 Million in Legal Fees staying out of BK.


3) Est $3 Billion in lost Revenue advoiding BK.



Now, Its time to Reward the AA Pilots for the above reasons..........................

[Edited 2007-10-02 00:31:07]
 
AA777ER
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:32 am

AA Hourly Captain Rate vs. Competitors*




Continental Fedex Southwest UPS Airborne Express American

767 $189.00 $219.00 N/A $224.00 $239.00 $177.00

737-800 $166.00 $188.00 $198.00 $224.00 $228.00 $163.00


* 12 years of longevity. Comparable aircraft substituted as applicable



AA Pilot Monthly Guarantees vs. Competitors


Continental Hawaiian Southwest Fedex JetBlue American

Reserve 76 hours 75 hours 79 hours 74 hours 75 hours 73 hours

Lineholder 72 hours 75 hours 78 hours 74 hours 70 hours 64 hours

[Edited 2007-10-02 00:27:56]

[Edited 2007-10-02 00:30:02]
 
bobnwa
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:38 am

Are not AA pilots among the the top 5% of wage earners in the US at the present time? I would say that is being very well paid.
 
HPAEAA
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:00 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 14):
Are not AA pilots among the the top 5% of wage earners in the US at the present time? I would say that is being very well paid.

Agreed, when your toward the top of the latter, making more than the other union groups who also gave concessions (and their staying relatively quiet), I can't sympathize much.. if they had lost the money in the market due to a downturn, something tells me they'd have some fingers to point as well.

I'll stop there.. I don't want to spark any wars..

To balance this out, AA Mgt has some convincing evidence as well below, take a look at some of the productivity charts.

http://www.aanegotiations.com/apa.asp
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:07 am

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 12):
3) Est $3 Billion in lost Revenue advoiding BK.

That is absolutley not even a valid fact. DL didn't lose 3 Billion in revenue in BK:


10.8 Billion 2004
11.4 Billion 2005
11.8 Billon 2006

source: SEC 10K filings

Delta grew by 1 Billion dollars in Revenue during their BK !


To say AA "would have lost 3 Billion is revenue in BK is beyond a made up number.

Also, Revenue is not profit. Revenue without profit in the long term is meaningless.

to say revenue generation is a "savings" also is a non-sequiter.

[Edited 2007-10-02 01:12:52]
 
SpruceMoose
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:15 am

Pardon me for being painfully naive, but if those other airlines pay so much better, why not quit and go work for them?

-SpruceMoose
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:18 am

Quoting SpruceMoose (Reply 17):
why not quit and go work for them

Because then the pilots lose their seniority and start all over again. That is the bad thing about a job based on seniority instead of performance, there is no way to "get ahead" because the union protects the slackers as well as the good guys.

To use a country song title "Everything you want comes with everything you don't"

[Edited 2007-10-02 03:46:00]
 
SpruceMoose
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:23 am

Well, that seems counterproductive. Who came up with the idea of basing everything on seniority?
 
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LAXintl
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:35 am

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 12):
Now, Its time to Reward the AA Pilots for the above reasons..........................

They are being rewarded -- everyday by still having a company to work for.

If for not the sacrifice of AA employees including pilots, AA would have entered Ch11 and could very well look very different today.

For labor to believe they are due this money back, or deserve somesort of massive snap back is living in a fantasy land. The industry and world have changed, and like it or not wages and work environments needed to change as well.

Look at it this way, AA's profit for the full year of 2006 was $231 million -- the pilots alone are looking for raises which would wipe this out many times over. I guess they would like nothing more than to have the company be forced to visit the Ch11 court house in the coming years.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:37 am

Quoting SpruceMoose (Reply 19):
Who came up with the idea of basing everything on seniority?

Very good question, you need to go back to 1866 to get the answer to the modern practice of senority in the US

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Labor_Union
 
MaverickM11
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:40 am

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter):
The pilots of American Airlines stepped up and saved the AMR corporation from impending financial disaster

What a bunch of delusional AA$$holes. I mean really....
 
MAH4546
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:43 am

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 12):

Now, Its time to Reward the AA Pilots for the above reasons..........................

No, it isn't. While I certainly do not support the excessive bonuses given to AA executives, the demands by AMR's pilots are absurd and greedy, and undeserving to the pilots. It's pretty disgusting the way AA pilots are acting. Shame on them.
 
incitatus
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:46 am

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 13):
AA Hourly Captain Rate vs. Competitors*

Continental Fedex Southwest UPS Airborne Express American

Airborne Express, UPS and FedEx competitors to American? Really?

American's competitors are 1. United, 2. Delta, 3. Continental, 4. Northwest, 5. Southwest

Express shipment companies have pilots, that is true. Hospitals have doctors, so do airlines, but they don't compete with each other.

Quoting SpruceMoose (Reply 19):
Who came up with the idea of basing everything on seniority?

I don't have an answer to that, but companies benefit from a seniority system as well. After investing so much in training personel, having a seniority system discourages people from going to a competitor. In the case of pilots, in an upturn, airlines would risk having a large number of them poached by competitors. The result would be a large increase in pay.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:52 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 24):
having a seniority system discourages people from going to a competitor

so do raises, extra vacation days, and 401K matching and vesting, all things you get without a protected seniority list at most all decent size US companies.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:59 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 23):
While I certainly do not support the excessive bonuses given to AA executives

Weren't they stock options (ie pay for performance that the union wants for everyone but themselves) that the union agreed to?
 
incitatus
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:28 am

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 12):
The AA Pilots have saved AMR over $6 Billion Dollars over the last 4 Years.............................

1) $3 Billion in Wage and work rules.

2) $500 Million in Legal Fees staying out of BK.

3) Est $3 Billion in lost Revenue advoiding BK.

Now, Its time to Reward the AA Pilots for the above reasons..........................

Part of the reward is that pilots got to keep their pensions. How does that figure into this calculation? At $1 million pension benefit per pilot and 10 thousand pilots, that's $10 billion.
 
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na747
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:32 am

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter):
The pilots of American Airlines stepped up and saved the AMR corporation from impending financial disaster

What about the rest of the workgroup?..Flt attdts, rampers, agents...they, took a hit,too, and helped save the company.
Though I recognize the fact that the pilots made sacrifices, everyone else did, too. And yes, I do believe everyone now should get something back.
With all due respect, unfortunately for the rest of us, the difference is that we'll lose our homes before you lose your yacht.
Not one group is more important than the other.

[Edited 2007-10-02 04:33:44]
 
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asuflyer05
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:22 pm

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 5):
But they still didn't get much of a raise.

A 12yr 737 CA at WN has the same block hour rate as a 12yr UA 777 CA. WN has one of the best if not the best narrowbody pay scales in the industry.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 9):
It would seem that this feat, if accurate, would not be due to pilot competence.

I think the point of the figure is that pilot productivity is up. Management tied pilot compensation to profitability and vice versa back in 2003. So the it's understandable now that the balance sheet is cleaner for pilots to ask for a part of the profitability.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 20):
They are being rewarded -- everyday by still having a company to work for.

If for not the sacrifice of AA employees including pilots, AA would have entered Ch11 and could very well look very different today.

So if your company cut your pay 6 years ago and said the survival of the company depended on it, you wouldn't ask for it back and a raise once it was financially healthy again?

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 23):
No, it isn't. While I certainly do not support the excessive bonuses given to AA executives, the demands by AMR's pilots are absurd and greedy, and undeserving to the pilots. It's pretty disgusting the way AA pilots are acting. Shame on them.

Pilots start high, management starts low, they meet somewhere in the middle.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 24):
Express shipment companies have pilots, that is true. Hospitals have doctors, so do airlines, but they don't compete with each other.

Because they fly the same type of aircraft.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:42 pm

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 29):
So if your company cut your pay 6 years ago and said the survival of the company depended on it, you wouldn't ask for it back and a raise once it was financially healthy again?

Well AA is still not "financially healthy". If nothing goes wrong this will be only the 2nd year the airline has posted profitability after 5 successive years in the red. The airline still has a high debt load, and just today had is stock downgraded. Let the company earn back the many billions it lost these last few years in profits and maybe then we can say its "healthy".

Do the pilots deserve something as part of their CBA? maybe but certainly not the 30%+. What the pilots are day dreaming about would very quikcly pull a company that is only starting to stand on its feet again right back into losses.

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 29):
Because they fly the same type of aircraft.

Just because two airlines fly the same planes does not mean they can pay pilots the same. Comparing the business success and financial strenght of UPS and Fedex to the passenger operators is very much and apples vs orange comparison. In the same vain then should the guy flying a 747 at 3rd rate Kalitta earn as much as UPS or United?

I suppose with your view, there should be a national payscale based on equipment types and sizes. If thats the case either lots of small airlines would be wiped off the books, or the entire industry pay scales would have to drop as only a very few can even get close to affording to pay "top of industry" wages you espouse.
 
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asuflyer05
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:24 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 30):
Well AA is still not "financially healthy". If nothing goes wrong this will be only the 2nd year the airline has posted profitability after 5 successive years in the red. The airline still has a high debt load, and just today had is stock downgraded. Let the company earn back the many billions it lost these last few years in profits and maybe then we can say its "healthy".

The airline didn't waste time requesting concession from the pilots when the company started to slide. By your argument they should have waited a while to see if the market adjusted before they asked for a paycut?

I apologize but I just reread my post 3 or 4 times and I can't find where I said or insinuated:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 30):
there should be a national payscale based on equipment types and sizes



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 30):
very few can even get close to affording to pay "top of industry" wages you espouse.

For your information, I do not support a national pay scale or seniority list. I do however support competitive wages and work rules. Remember a pilot contract is much more than just a block hour rate. The pilots are showing they are more productive than they were 6 years ago and work for far less wages. And their block hour rate and other benefits are not as competitive as other carriers.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 30):
Do the pilots deserve something as part of their CBA? maybe but certainly not the 30%+. What the pilots are day dreaming about would very quikcly pull a company that is only starting to stand on its feet again right back into losses.

Again:

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 29):
Pilots start high, management starts low, they meet somewhere in the middle.

It's called negotiating.
 
mpdpilot
Posts: 827
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:31 pm

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 29):
So if your company cut your pay 6 years ago and said the survival of the company depended on it, you wouldn't ask for it back and a raise once it was financially healthy again?

I wouldn't necessarily say they are back to where they where prior to 9/11.

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 29):
Pilots start high, management starts low, they meet somewhere in the middle.

Wait I am lost here Pilots don't start higher than management. Assuming you consider starting right out of college or the end of school.
 
n710ps
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:47 pm

There are certain cases where I am pro Union and others where I am not pro union. In the case of pay I am very pro union (duh) but for other issues I am not soo much. I think unions protect the inadiquate alot of times. I also think that in the case of my parent airline the union screwed one half of the work group. I am very on the fence but I think as a whole airline pilot pay needs to come up a notch with the legacy and regional carriers. There are rampers making more than some of us out there. That is uncalled for. There should be a clean cut divider between those in skilled positions (pilot) and unskilled positions (bag mashers and CSA's). If you look at the regionals there is almost none for the first few years.
 
DFWEagle
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:38 pm

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 32):
Wait I am lost here Pilots don't start higher than management. Assuming you consider starting right out of college or the end of school.

He is not comparing the management and pilot pay levels. He is talking about the demands that each group makes in the pilot contract negotiations. The pilots initially make a high demand and the management initially makes a very low offer to them. They then negotiate and at the end they usually agree somewhere in the middle.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:57 pm

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 29):
WN has one of the best if not the best narrowbody pay scales in the industry.

They never had to deal with the legacy of deregulation, however.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:12 pm

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 29):
A 12yr 737 CA at WN has the same block hour rate as a 12yr UA 777 CA. WN has one of the best if not the best narrowbody pay scales in the industry.

No major airline captain is paid that badly for that matter. The point is that WN didn't have a massive raise, they got an inflation adjusted 4.7% raise in each of the last 6 years (that is IF the pay posted by the OTS is correct)

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 32):
Wait I am lost here Pilots don't start higher than management. Assuming you consider starting right out of college or the end of school.

only the top 100 or so management people at a major airline make the "big bucks". The vast majority of pilots make much more than manegement at the major airlines.

A great example: US was hiring a Senior Business Analyst to develop the airline's entire Business to Business Sales portal for corporate contracts. The pay the best qualified applicant (top range)? -60 K . That job went unfilled, or they hired a complete incompetatnt, that same job in the non-aviation sector is paying 90-120K elsewhere.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:33 pm

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 36):
A great example: US was hiring a Senior Business Analyst to develop the airline's entire Business to Business Sales portal for corporate contracts. The pay the best qualified applicant (top range)? -60 K . That job went unfilled, or they hired a complete incompetatnt, that same job in the non-aviation sector is paying 90-120K elsewhere.

Pilots won't find any sympathy from anyone in management for that exact reason, particularly the especially despicable APA.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:36 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 37):
Pilots won't find any sympathy from anyone in management for that exact reason, particularly the especially despicable APA.

I agree compelety, the APA would just say there is no "I" in team but there is a "me".

It's a shame they don't seem to care about the mechanics, dispatchers, res agents, schuleding and the countless of thousand other employees that make sure they have a nice shiny safe aircraft to go fly in so they complain 110K a year isn't enough.
 
incitatus
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting N710PS (Reply 33):
There are rampers making more than some of us out there. That is uncalled for. There should be a clean cut divider between those in skilled positions (pilot) and unskilled positions (bag mashers and CSA's).

I very definately can relate to this argument - I've done my trips to Presque Isle, Maine in windy Winter nights and the job of a pilot there is really tough.

But consider why pay for such jobs is so low. First, it is a question of supply and demand. There are enough qualified pilots out there that some will accept a job like that paying $25/hour. Second, their production is of low value - no offense intended - revenue is small. Sustaining a commercial flight on a small airplane is a race for the few pennies left once all expenses are paid for. If the pilots making $25/hour demand $75/hour based on fairness, those routes shut down because they can never make any money.

The only acceptable conclusion for the existence of $25/hour pilot jobs is that there are too many pilots out there.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:19 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 39):
If the pilots making $25/hour demand $75/hour based on fairness, those routes shut down because they can never make any money

I don't think 25 an hour for a regional F/O is nearly enough. Luckily as 50 Seat RJ's are phased out and there are some retirements this will go up, there is already a shortage of pilots going on at the moment.

My sister in law was a E170 F/O for Chautauqua (Republic) and when she looked at the actual pay rate when duty time was calculated she was way underpaid!



the APA is truly just being greedy. Most people realize that many general practioner doctors in the US barely clear 110K a year with all the costs of doing business these day, and they spend a lot longer in school than pilots do.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
They never had to deal with the legacy of deregulation, however.

WN was around several years before deregulation actually, they dealt with it just fine  Smile

[Edited 2007-10-02 17:30:32]
 
MaverickM11
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 40):
WN was around several years before deregulation actually, they dealt with it just fine

They were a Texas only carrier, so regulation did not really apply to them until they opened their first city outside of Texas, New Orleans, a year after deregulation.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Wed Oct 03, 2007 12:55 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 41):
They were a Texas only carrier, so regulation did not really apply to them until they opened their first city outside of Texas, New Orleans, a year after deregulation.

Agreed, but they have been around for quite some time now and other than the FA contract issue a few years ago (which was settled quickly) you don't see WN pilots complaining all the time  Smile
 
kl911
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:03 am

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 2):
WRONG........................................



SWA AVG Pilot wages in 2000................................$110,000


SWA AVG Pilot Wages in 2006...............................$165,000

If you're that Jelaous, why don't you apply for a job with SWA?  Smile Not that difficult....
 
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asuflyer05
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:07 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 42):
Agreed, but they have been around for quite some time now and other than the FA contract issue a few years ago (which was settled quickly) you don't see WN pilots complaining all the time

I wonder why?

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 39):
The only acceptable conclusion for the existence of $25/hour pilot jobs is that there are too many pilots out there.

You are exactly right. There are too many people willing to work at low-paying airlines because they can fly a jet.
 
gsosbee
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:12 am

Dueling public websites is not the answer to AMR's labor problems.

Are there management types that are over compensated - sure; just as their are marginal pilots and F/A's who are clinging on only due to union rules.

The non-management types are going to have to accept that there is a reason that every company in a free economy world pays it's management and executives more than it's operations staffs. The reason is the executives are the face of the company to its owners and the financial community. Screw around with these two groups and no sacrifice by the operations staffs will be great enough to save the company. Running off qualified management talent by paying below their market value will eventually result in the demise of the organization. I personally know several AMR executives who average 10 to 15 hours a day at the office because they are understaffed, but the work has to get done. Week after week this gets very old, but their function is as critical to the organization as anyone in operations.

Unless the management group at AMR are totally deaf, they get the problems, but they are the ones who have to balance financial and operational realities.

The labor negotiation process is a series of compromises. Bold statements by either side are counter productive. Words like make-up, economic value, etc. are great in an academic setting, but are inflammatory words in a labor negotiation where the expectations of one group are so totally out of line with economic realities.
 
mpdpilot
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:36 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 36):
only the top 100 or so management people at a major airline make the "big bucks". The vast majority of pilots make much more than manegement at the major airlines.

I was talking more generally. In general people in managment start out at a higher income. They may not all make it up to the big bucks but average starting wages are a lot higher than pilots.
 
ckfred
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:52 am

The Wall Street Journal had an article about this some time ago. The point of the article is that labor should never compare their wages to management's salaries. Labor should compare management's salaries to salaries of management at competing companies.

In the case of American/AMR, managment at other carriers are better paid. This is the reason that AA is losing upper-level and middle-level managers. Several years ago, United hired away several VPs, because it was able to offer salaries well above what they were making at AA. Despite what the union says, AA has not given white-collar employees a raise. They are still being paid the same salaries that they were in 2003, when everyone took a pay cut.

The issue of the stock bonuses is completely bogus. Giving stock to employees costs a company zero, although some shareholder activists argue that giving stock is a cost, because stock given to employees could have been sold to investors. Regardless of one's viewpoint, giving stock bonuses to management did not decrease the cash balance of the carrier.

The APA must also be mindful that, unlike their brethern at United, Delta, US Airways, and other carriers, AA still has pension plans that are fairly well funded, and AA continues to increase the level of funding. And unlike their union brothers at the UAW, they haven't had their health benefits cut in the last few years.

There is one thing I find interesting. The comment about poor marketing moves probably refers, in part, to MRTC. Even though some of the APA leadership were critical of MRTC, every rank-and-file pilot I know thought it was the one of the best ideas to come out of HQ. The only criticism they had was that the advertising was primarily focused on AA's major markets, such as Boston, New York, Chicago, Miami, etc. The campaign wasn't done nationally, so that people living in spoke cities, or at hubs of other carriers, weren't aware of the changes.

Of course, there are the cheapskate passengers who gripe about legroom but aren't willing to fork over some extra bucks to get it. But that isn't management's fault.

I understand that the pilots want to get some the concessions back, but they have to understand that they can't get them back in one day. It gripes me that so many pilots I know either run side businesses or watch CNBC while playing the stock market regularly. They have to understand how a business works, and they also have to know that what goes on at HQ in Dallas isn't unique to AMR. It's S.O.P. throughout the Fortune 500.

My wife's former employer took away annual incentive bonuses during fiscal '02. It took until 2006 for my wife's salary to match the salary and bonus that she got in 2002. But senior management didn't lose their bonuses.

In fact, there was a recent op-ed piece in the Wall Street Journal, written by Robert B. Reich, Clinton's Secretary of Labor. He argues that in today's cutthroat, global environment, CEOs and other high-level executives are paid fairly. Large corporations no longer run themselves and often must adapt to the business environment on a daily basis. Thus, coporations must pay large salaries for the people who must make tough decisions while trying to keep investors, employees, and various government regulators happy.
 
itsnotfinals
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RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:11 am

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 46):
They may not all make it up to the big bucks but average starting wages are a lot higher than pilots.

That is incorrect, many mid level managers at major airlines that have advanced degrees and may have been with the company for 15 years or have 15 years of airline experince still make less than pilots.

Another example:
During DL's bankruptcy they had an opening for senior director of catering operations that was to coordinate all the movement of all DL assets and catering vendors for North America. this was a very high profile job requiring 10 years of program management experience, airline experience and a masters degree, yet the pay range was listed at 85,000 to 110,000. Still management, and still less pay than a 15 year pilot at DL (even after the pay cut).

In a company the size of AA there are hundreds of "management" types that make much less than a pilot.

Entry level managers are lucky to make 40-45,000 a year at most majors. If you include supervisors in the field, that number drops even lower.

This continuing mis-conception that more than only the top senior executives make more than pilots has got to stop, it's just not true for 90% of airline management. Stock Options are also not doled out all over the place either for most management types.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 47):
Giving stock to employees costs a company zero,

Actually since about 2.5 years ago companies do have to count stock option costs against income , but this is a non cash charge and is limited to the difference between the option grant price and the option strike price (basic simplification for the non-accounting types) when executed by the employee.

Stock Options and grants don't cost the company cash, but it can impact a company's income and therefore profitability which can result in higher debt costs in an extreme situation.

Stock Options are still a very cheap way to pay an employee compared to straight on salary however.

http://www.fasb.org/st/summary/stsum123.shtml

http://www.nysscpa.org/cpajournal/2005/105/essentials/p28.htm

[Edited 2007-10-02 23:21:07]
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1753
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: American Airline's Pilots New Negotiations Website

Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:46 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 47):
AA still has pension plans that are fairly well funded, and AA continues to increase the level of funding.

If people would only look beyond next week or the next contract.

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