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76er
Topic Author
Posts: 713
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:57 am

Just appeared on luchtvaartnieuws.nl (sorry, dutch)

http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?id=22377

Three times a week as of march 30th, 2008. No word on equipment or stopovers.
 
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northwestEWR
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:45 pm

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:05 am

It's in the Skyteam online timetable - They're non-stop.
There are from April 2008
AMS-PTY
KL 757
130PM - 525PM
MD-11

PTY-AMS
KL 758
735PM - 1PM+1 day
MD-11
 
B747forever
Posts: 13909
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:07 am

When did KLM stop to serve PTY.

Hopes will go better this time.

Will this be a daily service???
 
KL577
Posts: 547
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:21 am

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:08 am

Nice, when did KLM exactly quit PTY? If I recall correctly the last year KLM operated to Panama it was a nonstop service as well, with continuation to SJO on an MD11. So 3 new destinations for KLM as from April (Linkoping, DFW and PTY!)
 
76er
Topic Author
Posts: 713
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:36 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 2):
When did KLM stop to serve PTY.

1998

Quoting B747forever (Reply 2):
Will this be a daily service???

Read. Three times a week
 
Joost
Posts: 1877
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:27 pm

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:40 am

Quoting KL577 (Reply 3):
So 3 new destinations for KLM as from April (Linkoping, DFW and PTY!)

And Muscat (tag-on from KWI, 332) starting in December, makes another addition!
 
IAD380
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:34 am

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:40 am

DFW and PTY! In less than a week, KL announced new services to two destinations in the western hemisphere. Maybe KL will also return to SJO, although I would not be surprised if AF ends up flying there. I wonder what new destinations in North, Central, and South America AF and KL will announce in the coming months. I do not expect either airline to start flying to a new destination on this side of the Atlantic that the other carrier already serves.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 3236
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:01 am

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 6):
Maybe KL will also return to SJO, although I would not be surprised if AF ends up flying there

AF has considered to fly CDG-SJO in the past.
CM may transfer passengers from the rest of Central America in order to feed KL PTY-AMS regarding their working relationship in Sky Team.
 
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LTU932
Posts: 13725
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting NorthwestEWR (Reply 1):
AMS-PTY
KL 757
130PM - 525PM
MD-11

PTY-AMS
KL 758
735PM - 1PM+1 day
MD-11

Interesting. I thought they'd fly to PTY with a stop in BON, but they decided to go nonstop both ways. I guess they wouldn't have gone nonstop if it wasn't for the competition against IB (which flies to PTY on a triangular routing through GUA.

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 6):
Maybe KL will also return to SJO, although I would not be surprised if AF ends up flying there.

I think it's more likely for AF to start CDG-SJO than KL returning to Costa Rica and axing MP's feeder flights to MIA (even though KL has more brand recognition here in Costa Rica than AF). There was a thread once where it was said that AF has SJO on its radar for future service, but nothing more definitive was said. I'm still confident that AF will eventually start up CDG-SJO on a two-class A340.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:04 am

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 7):
CM may transfer passengers from the rest of Central America in order to feed KL PTY-AMS regarding their working relationship in Sky Team.

Sounds reasonable. Thus (most likely) ending talks of CM direct flights to Europe.
 
luisca
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:37 am

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:13 am

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 9):
Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 7):
CM may transfer passengers from the rest of Central America in order to feed KL PTY-AMS regarding their working relationship in Sky Team.

Sounds reasonable. Thus (most likely) ending talks of CM direct flights to Europe.

Actually, CMs president publically stated that CM was looking into fliying to Europe in October of 08. So this is unrelated, it was known that this service would be announced a while ago.

Everything is pointing towards CM starting service to Madrid with their own metal in Oct O8
 
lamedianaranja
Posts: 1195
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:21 am

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:15 am

Nice new destinations, and MD11 to PTY, great.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:23 am

Quoting Luisca (Reply 10):

Actually, CMs president publically stated that CM was looking into fliying to Europe in October of 08. So this is unrelated, it was known that this service would be announced a while ago.

True. I still have my doubts about the whole CM flying to Europe thing. It doesn't make sense for me. Now with confirmed service to AMS by a SkyTeam Partner - no less - makes me have even greater doubts. But then again, i dont doubt that CM managet know a lot more about their operation than i do..

But - i guess if i were significant stock holder - id be asking a LOT of questions, as it doesnt seem a "slam dunk"
 
JRadier
Posts: 3968
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:30 am

Question is, where do they get the MD-11 from. As far as I'm aware the fleet is heavily utilized. Must be a 777 sub (I recon) somewhere else in the system.
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:09 am

Quoting JRadier (Reply 13):
Question is, where do they get the MD-11 from. As far as I'm aware the fleet is heavily utilized. Must be a 777 sub (I recon) somewhere else in the system.

Doesn't the new non-stop AMS-LIMA flight free one MD-11 from the old AMS-BON-LIMA flight? And wasn't there a Canadian or US destination which had a MD-11 swapped for a B777?

KL911
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4126
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:30 pm

Quoting JRadier (Reply 13):
Question is, where do they get the MD-11 from.



Quoting KL911 (Reply 14):
Doesn't the new non-stop AMS-LIMA flight free one MD-11 from the old AMS-BON-LIMA flight? And wasn't there a Canadian or US destination which had a MD-11 swapped for a B777?

The MD11 from the LIM nonstop has long been gobbled up. This particular frame is coming from the KL567/569/571 AMS JRO DAR AMS runs, which will change to B772ER next summer. KLM still has some spare capacity in its sytem for next summer so look for more new announcements and/or frequency reinforcements.
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:07 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 15):
KLM still has some spare capacity in its sytem for next summer so look for more new announcements and/or frequency reinforcements.

HB-IWC,

What would be your guess for a possible new route?
 
PHKLM
Posts: 788
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:36 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 16):

What would be your guess for a possible new route?

AMS-EZE  duck 
 
kl911
Posts: 3981
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:47 pm

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 17):
AMS-EZE

Hmmm, isn't EZE well covered by AF? I would guess China or India....


KL911
 
2travel2know
Posts: 2236
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:05 am

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:47 pm

CM welcomes KL - in Spanish.
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4126
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:29 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 16):
What would be your guess for a possible new route?

I'm putting my money on the launch of nonstop services to existing stations which do not currently enjoy such service as well as frequency reinforcements to existing gateways.
 
HUYfan
Posts: 1200
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 9:38 pm

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:58 pm

Will the flight be codeshared with CM?

Regards

Mike
 
WonderFan
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:22 am

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:58 pm

KLM is getting stronger in this part of the world (LIM, GYE, UIO, PTY,...). I bet you this new flight will pressure IB to make its flights to PTY nonstop , instead of triangular via GUA. Anybody knows how they're doing on AMS-LIM-AMS?
 
IAD380
Posts: 461
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:34 am

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 16):
What would be your guess for a possible new route?

I guess that a destination in Florida would be a priority for KL. Maybe KL will return to MCO, or replace Martinair on the AMS-MIA route.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 18):
I would guess China or India....

What new destination would KL fly to in China or India that AF doesn't currently serve?
 
JRadier
Posts: 3968
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 11:36 pm

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:51 am

Quoting IAD380 (Reply 23):

I guess that a destination in Florida would be a priority for KL. Maybe KL will return to MCO, or replace Martinair on the AMS-MIA route.

I wouldn't count on it. Florida is pretty low yield traffic so not as interesting as other destinations. KL/NW tried MIA before, but they moved out. I don't see them coming back any time soon.
 
SJOtoLIR
Posts: 3236
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:41 pm

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Wed Oct 03, 2007 3:59 am

Quoting NorthwestEWR (Reply 1):
It's in the Skyteam online timetable - They're non-stop.
There are from April 2008
AMS-PTY
KL 757
130PM - 525PM
MD-11

PTY-AMS
KL 758
735PM - 1PM 1 day
MD-11

The schedule above fits perfectly to allow traffic from most of the Central American cities served by CM.
If AF starts CDG-SJO in the future, CM may also move traffic from Central America regarding its regional operations from SJO as recently discussed in the Central American thread.
 
aer
Posts: 699
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:10 pm

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:33 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 8):

As long as someone adds GUA to the mix, I'm happy hehe

Quoting HUYfan (Reply 21):
Will the flight be codeshared with CM?

Guess so, it would be the logical idea.

Quoting WonderFan (Reply 22):
instead of triangular via GUA.

Don't think so, Guatemala is an important business class market for IB
 
WonderFan
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:22 am

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:24 pm

Quoting Aer (Reply 26):
Don't think so, Guatemala is an important business class market for IB

I didn't mean that GUA would be scrapped. I meant that GUA and PTY could be decoupled. I think PTY provides more pax than GUA on the MAD-GUA-PTY flight and might do ok on a dedicated flight. I am not sure if the same thing would be true of GUA but if GUA cannot have a viable dedicated flight, maybe it can be coupled with another city like SAL.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 26682
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:31 pm

Quoting JRadier (Reply 24):
I wouldn't count on it. Florida is pretty low yield traffic so not as interesting as other destinations. KL/NW tried MIA before, but they moved out. I don't see them coming back any time soon.

KLM didn't do well to Miami because of Martinair. They had to match the prices. If KLM where to replace Martinair Holland, rather than compliment, they would do great in Miami. Though considering how big Martinair's Miami cargo operations are, I don't see that happening.
 
Rookinla
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:41 pm

Quoting JRadier (Reply 24):
I wouldn't count on it. Florida is pretty low yield traffic so not as interesting as other destinations. KL/NW tried MIA before, but they moved out. I don't see them coming back any time soon.

First...AF flies to MIA so there is really no reason for KL to start MIA-AMS. As we all know, AF/KLM is trying not to duplicate new markets when possible. As for MCO...KL flew there over 10 years ago in a AMS-MCO-MEX routing. The Orlando market is different now than it was 10 years ago. KLM will not return I'm pretty sure but...AF is a completely different story. They have a proposal in hand from MCO to start MCO-CDG service. Whether or not they will in the near future, we'll have to see. I think that AF is waiting to see how LH does with their new MCO service...and it looks promising. The key here is what MCO is willing to give AF to start the service. They could do well with the A330...perfect capacity for the route. With DL being a major player for Skyteam at MCO, it's just a matter of time before either DL or AF starts CDG-MCO...and my money's on AF...and pretty soon.
 
Summa767
Posts: 1848
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:50 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 28):
KLM didn't do well to Miami because of Martinair. They had to match the prices. If KLM where to replace Martinair Holland, rather than compliment, they would do great in Miami. Though considering how big Martinair's Miami cargo operations are, I don't see that happening.

Since KLM now owns 100% of Martinair, things might well change, not least because Martinair lost a lot of money in the last financial year. I understand that there is a plan to merge Martinair's cargo operations into those AF/KL, to supress short haul passenger ops, leaving them to Transavia. Martinair would, thus, concentrate on long haul leisure flights.

Another fall out is the possible sale of Martinair's majority stake in Tampa Cargo. Both Lan Chile and Avianca are said to be interested.
 
upperdeckfan
Posts: 1087
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:59 am

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:36 am

Quoting WonderFan (Reply 27):
I didn't mean that GUA would be scrapped. I meant that GUA and PTY could be decoupled. I think PTY provides more pax than GUA on the MAD-GUA-PTY flight and might do ok on a dedicated flight. I am not sure if the same thing would be true of GUA but if GUA cannot have a viable dedicated flight, maybe it can be coupled with another city like SAL.

It might get decoupled after IB gets the A332's that were mentioned on a recent IB related thread.

IMHO, if KL can make profit out of a non-stop AMS-PTY IB should be able to make profit as well on a non-stop.

Other issue as well is whether KL and IB will compete on the same days as both flight are/will be 3xweekly
 
76er
Topic Author
Posts: 713
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:23 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 30):
Since KLM now owns 100% of Martinair

Did I miss something? Latest news is that AF/KL hasn't even turned to Brussels yet, still awaiting several cartel investigations (US DoJ and EU).
 
WonderFan
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:22 am

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:37 pm

Quoting UPPERDECKFAN (Reply 31):
It might get decoupled after IB gets the A332's that were mentioned on a recent IB related thread.

IMHO, if KL can make profit out of a non-stop AMS-PTY IB should be able to make profit as well on a non-stop.

Other issue as well is whether KL and IB will compete on the same days as both flight are/will be 3xweekly

I think they pretty much have to decouple the route now or else they will give an edge to KLM with its nonstop to PTY. I think the stop in GUA adds a lot of time to the flight as GUA and PTY are pretty far from each other. Coupling GUA and SAL together would make more sense since they are much closer to each other. I imagine they must be a significant amount of traffic from SAL also, right?
 
Summa767
Posts: 1848
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: Official: KLM Returns To PTY

Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:14 pm

Quoting 76er (Reply 32):
Did I miss something? Latest news is that AF/KL hasn't even turned to Brussels yet, still awaiting several cartel investigations (US DoJ and EU).

Oh I see. I read the news in which KL would be buying out Maersk in order to be the sole shareholder. I did wonder whether regulatory approval would be necessary, so I take it this is still pending. Assuming it does go through, changes will be underway very soon after that happens. Regardless of that, though, European operations are terminating as of next month.

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