AMRs 2Q FCF is running 7.2 Million/Day......................................


Restoring the AA Pilots Wages Plus CPI.............Will Cost $1.5 Million more/Daay or $5/PAX or a Starbucks Latte !


GET OVER IT.....................


We will NOT subsidize the Traveling Public moving forward !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Airline Industry Select a New Industry


1-33 of 33 companies. Data as of 10/10/2007

Ticker Name Qtrly Free Cash Flow TTM Free Cash Flow


MktCap Weighted Average 231.178 490.890


UAUA UAL Corporation 956.000 1,735.000
AMR AMR Corporation 659.000 1,422.000
LUV Southwest Airlines Co. 638.000 9.000
CAL Continental Airlines, Inc. 592.000 756.000
BAIRY British Airways plc (ADR) 322.101 2,273.052
DAL Delta Air Lines, Inc. 282.000 461.000
LCC US Airways Group, Inc. 234.000 294.000
NWA Northwest Airlines Corporation 233.000 962.000
CEA China Eastern Airlines Corp. Ltd. (ADR) 222.292 374.663
RYAAY Ryanair Holdings plc (ADR) 215.890 396.967
ZNH China Southern Airlines Limited (ADR) 213.305 419.548
ALK Alaska Air Group, Inc. 165.400 362.900
RJET Republic Airways Holdings Inc. 84.961 181.446
AKH Air France - KLM (ADR) 69.764 -378.718
MEH Midwest Air Group, Inc. 37.758 41.447
SA)">HA Hawaiian Holdings, Inc. 27.915 -126.323
MESA Mesa Air Group, Inc. 8.952 43.998
SKYW SkyWest, Inc. 8.509 36.067
GLUX Great Lakes Aviation, Ltd. .758 7.386
VGDAQ Vanguard Airlines -2.196 -.574
MAIR MAIR Holdings, Inc. -4.989 -11.459
AAWW Atlas Air Worldwide Holdings, Inc. -13.660 62.578
AAI AirTran Holdings, Inc. -21.564 -73.563
XJT ExpressJet Holdings, Inc. -26.680 37.234
PNCL Pinnacle Airlines Corp. -39.923 269.881
FRNT Frontier Airlines Holdings, Inc. -62.537 -187.726
LFL Lan Airlines S.A. (ADR) -92.481 -492.118
DLAKY Deutsche Lufthansa AG (ADR) -115.324 504.008
GOL GOL Linhas Aereas Inteligentes SA (ADR) -121.523 -263.388
JBLU JetBlue Airways Corporation -135.000 -559.000
TAM TAM S.A. (ADR) -282.996 -334.171
CPA Copa Holdings, S.A. NA NA
KLMR KLM Royal Dutch Airlines (ADR) NA NA

[Edited 2007-10-11 14:24:14]

[Edited 2007-10-11 14:25:41]

[Edited 2007-10-11 14:27:12]

[Edited 2007-10-11 14:27:51]

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter): Restoring the SA)">AA Pilots Wages Plus CPI.............Will Cost $1.5 Million more/Daay or $5/PAX........................

Thanks for the union propaganda.

$5 might sound simple, however you very know the industry is very competitive with little pricing power.

Number one selection criteria for consumers is price, so the airline that offers the cheapest options gets the business.

So if AA were raise fares across the board by $5 as the APA alleges, it would very quickly find loads drop as other carriers continue to offer cheaper options.

Coming up with an extra $550mil annually is far from as simple as the APA would like to make it sound.

Ah, the devoted enthusiast who angrily tells the rest of the world how they owe him money.

But, you know what? I can say the same thing!

"We, the flying public, will not subsidize the ridiculous union payscales that pay a 30 year senior pilot too much money just because he/she's old."

We are tired of paying too much to fly when it is so unreliable.

The airline employees owe us! They should voluntarily take even more pay cuts and smile while doing so!

After all, isn't that what you are telling us? That we should just smile and pay $5 more per segment so that you can get your OVERPAID wages back? You were overpaid in 2000. You were overpaid in 2003. Now you are fairly paid, and it's not fair and you want everyone else to pay?

If anyone needs to "get over it" it's the AA pilots. You have a good salary, a good job, and you bitch.

As of today, in my industry, I can no longer find work because all production is shutting down. Period. There is a strike 2 weeks away, and already work has stopped. And my lovely union is trying to shut down industries that they don't even deal with (internet and animation).

So be thankful you still have a high paying job and stop living in the past. The world has changed, and it's not OUR fault you can't deal with it!

This is just insane. The current crop of airline CEO's need to be taken out and shot for even thinking of these measures. These so-called ancillary services were one of the few things keeping revenue coming in the door. What happens to the airline once these services have been sold off, the profits squandered, and another economic down-turn comes their way? Nothing to fall back on? Bye Bye Airline! Unbelievable. I can't believe these clowns are allowed to run airlines. These guys are starting to make Ken Lay look positively honorable.

Interesting approach. Sadly at odds with the free market economy.

There is a series of mistaken assumptions....

1. Airline can raise fares arbitrarily and passengers will still fly in the same numbers.
2. Airlines can raise fares and all airlines will match
3. Employees like AA pilots are entitled to a higher wage and that market dynamics will not apply
4. Shareholders and the company have no right to recoup the billions lost during economically weak time.
5. The economy is going great and will support the continued traffic/yields.

I would say the author of the original post has a very myopic view of the real world.

Sadly, Many including myself believe;

1. History clearly shows as yields increase the loads decrease along with overall revenue. (The Southwest airlines effect is based on the opposite and has proven to work.)
2. History clearly shows that airlines do not hesitate to undercut each other to gain market share and if they cooperated with each other to raise fares they would be guilty of anti-trust measures. In fact the basis of the capitalistic model is that competition will continue to cause lower costs, or addl features for the same or lower price points. Collusion is illegal and violators are guilty of anti-trust. The weak shall perish and the strong survive. If AA costs go too high (overpaid employees) then they will perish along with all the employees jobs. Think Pan Am, TWA, Eastern, and many others who were all #1 at various points in history.

3. AA Employees are asking for significantly more then market wages. They are basing the assumptions on the ridiculous wages agreed to in 2000 that were the reason the industry was in trouble prior to 9.11.01. The reality is that LCC's and others have proven that the market wage should be significantly lower.

4. Shareholders, Debt holders, Bondholders and others are trying to recover their losses. The management in the financial area knows that if you mess with them and jerk them to help the employees then you might as well close the doors as you will never get another bond issue, lease, terminal etc done.

5. The US economy is in trouble and the US dollar as well. Read the front page of today's Wall Street Journal.

It is so sad when these folks go forward believing they have all the answers with a myopic view rather then looking at the full picture. That being stated there are big issues with excessive executive compensation. The US corporate world is about to see some significant changes in the next decade with conspicuous consumption and those who look after themselves first becoming accountable to boards and shareholders.

Here we have an example of the attitude of many employees of airline companies. This is the reason that the US Airlines are struggling and have such a deserved bad rap. Can you imagine a F/A with the attitude that he/she is subsidizing your travel as you sit there, having paid for that seat? You look at that FA wrong and bam will you suffer. I am not saying that the pilots/FA/ or whoever have a case for better pay or better conditions, that is a whole other issue. But once you start blaming your customers who keep your paycheck coming in the door you are in the wrong industry and your shortsightedness will result in your job evaporating.

Is this a joke? Suggest deletion of entire thread.

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter): We will NOT subsidize the Traveling Public moving forward !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is the kicker. Yes please AA . . . CHARGE ME MORE!

I think AA should go along. Then AA will fail and we can take care of some of that excess capacity by allowing it to go Chapter 7.

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter): We will NOT subsidize the Traveling Public moving forward !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and we will not pay your wage by buying a ticket, see how that works? you work for customers, not for the Union.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 3): This is just insane. The current crop of airline CEO's need to be taken out and shot for even thinking of these measures.

This post is all about what the union wants, why are you bringing up management?

You know, I'm an AA elite FF with a hundreds of thousands of miles earned, and I find this behavior appalling.

AA's greedy unions make more than anyone else in the industry and yet they want their wages restored. Guess what? Your wages should be based on today's economy, not the economy of 10 years ago. The glory days of pre-9/11 are gone and past. And if you want to start pointing fingers for the state of air travel today, look no further than Skybus and WN. Your respective legacy employer can't keep up when your unions are bleeding them dry, especially when they're already at a disadvantage due to their cost structure.

In April of 2003, the pilots of American Airlines ratified a concessionary contract with the goal of keeping our company out of bankruptcy.



AMR's position in 2003 was partially the result of the collapse of the airline industry in the wake of 9/11. However, a series of disastrous decisions by AMR management- from ill-advised purchases and attempted purchases of other carriers to poor marketing decisions to expensive stock buy-backs- exacerbated our company's financial woes.



The pilots of American Airlines stepped up and saved the AMR corporation from impending financial disaster with a series of massive concessions. This contract provided the AMR corporation with an estimated $1 billion in annual savings in the areas of pay, productivity, and benefits. Some pilots suffered pay cuts as severe as 50%- all American pilots, who had not enjoyed a pay raise since 2000, suffered tremendous personal and financial hardship.



At the time the contract was ratified, the pilots were assured that they would share in any future successes of the company that they preserved.



Within a year of the 2003 crisis, AMR was back on firm financial footing, paying down debt, restoring the balance sheet, and building a large cash cushion.



Management pay was restored to pre-2003 levels by late 2004 and bonus plans took effect.



As AMR became profitable in 2006, the top 1000 managers began to receive bonuses that would total over 250 million dollars by April of 2007, with the majority going to the top 50 managers. In 2006, the top 5 AMR managers received $33.9 million in compensation, 29% more than the next highest management team in the industry. At the same time, the pilots have not shared in the recovery of our airline as promised.



The pilots of American Airlines as represented by the Allied Pilots Association are presently in contract negotiations with AMR. The APA has set a goal of recovering the investment made in 2003, with a focus on the following areas:



Hourly pay rates that restore lost purchasing power
Recovery and improvement of work rules
Preservation and enhancement of retirement benefits
Variable compensation that provides a true stake in future success


To date, the AMR corporation seems unwilling to entertain any proposals that do not constitute further concessions.



The APA Negotiations Web site will provide factual information related the the ongoing negotiations, updates on the status of the negotiations via email, and a point of contact for additional questions.



Thank you for your interest in the contract negotiations between APA and AMR.

Did You Know....





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AMR managers received over $260 million in bonuses between April 2006 and April 2007. If divided amongst the pilots this would equal an approximate average pay raise of 11% per year over those two years.


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Current American Airlines pilot hourly pay rates are approximately equal to 1992 pay rates. (Source: APA Contract Archive)


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AMR management compensation has increased over 900% since 2003 (Source:SEC Filings, APA Internal Analysis)


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American Airlines flew 4.2% fewer block hours in 2006 than in 2000 with 30% fewer pilots. American pilots fly over 20% more now than they did 6 years ago. (Source: APA Internal Analysis)


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American Airlines pilots received less than one hundred dollars each (after taxes) in performance bonuses during the 2006-2007 period.

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American pilots spend 15% more time away from home than they did in 2001. (Source: APA Internal Analysis)


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American Airlines International reserve pilots are required to be on call to the company for 19 days per month, 24 hours a day. (Source: APA/AMR Collective Bargaining Agreement)



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American Airlines pilots produced 9.2% more domestic revenue passenger miles per pilot and $600,000 more in revenue per pilot than Southwest pilots in 2006, according to Department of Transportation Statistics. (Source: DOT form 41 statistics)


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American Airlines has finished an average of 8th out of 11 industry competitors in Survey America comparisons over the last four years. Pilot performance bonuses are heavily based on these statistics- management bonuses are not. (Source: Survey America, SEC filings)


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American Airlines currently holds approximately $6 Billion in unrestricted cash and has one of the strongest balance sheets in the airline industry.

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American Airlines pilots must requalify every nine months by completing an extensive series of emergency scenarios in advanced aircraft simulators. Failure to do so results in termination.

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Airline Captains, and those First Officers who have Pilot-in-Command responsibility, must requalify medically every six months. Failure to meet stringent standards means removal from flight status.

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Only a small number of airports have the facilities that allow an airliner to "land itself" using the autopilot. The vast majority of poor weather approaches are completed by pilots "hand-flying."

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Pilots avoid thunderstorms and other hazardous weather themselves through the use of airborne weather radar. Correct radar technique takes years of experience to perfect. The energy in a typical summer thunderstorm is more than sufficient to severely damage or destroy an airliner.

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The average AA pilot has over ten years of specialized education, including military, corporate, and/or airline flying experience, prior to being hired at American.

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Between January and July of 2007, American Airlines had 205 flights that were delayed more than three hours between gate departure and takeoff, 57% more than the airline with the next highest number of delayed flights. (Source: DOT website)


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In June of 2007, American Airlines had an on-time arrival rate of 57%, last in a comparison with industry competitors. (Source: DOT website)


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It always amazes me how they did it to save AMR, well you did it to save your job! Which you still have.

AA777ER, instead of posting the union propoganda, why don't you tell us your opinion on the matter? Can't you speak for yourself?

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 8): and we will not pay your wage by buying a ticket, see how that works? you work for customers, not for the Union.

Amen. Hasn't this horse been beaten to death in another thread? If you union guys are tired of working for an airline at your current wage scale, no one is holding a gun to your head. There are other jobs to be had and there are lots of people out there who would gladly take your places. It's not my fault as a passenger that you don't make what you think you should. The "glory days" of working for airlines and making big bucks is over. People can accept it or move on. Militant unions have killed lots of companies including airlines. Just because yours may be the biggest, it does not make you immune from standing in the unemployment line if you aren't willing to deal with the realities of air travel today. There are plenty of other choices for us pax out there and more on the way. Most people I know no longer hold blind loyalty to a single airline anymore and are willing to change if they continue to get the surly "you passengers owe me" attitude.

AA and all the other legacies should just give stock options to the employees, as well. Then that way if all their hard work improves the stock price, then they get to share in the spoils as well, instead of just management.

And management just needs a solid salary (I don't care if it is millions of dollars) and greatly-reduced stock options so management is not driven to raise the stock price at all costs so they can make their load.

But if AA passengers will not pay $5 more per flight for MRTC, they are very unlikely to pay $5 for higher wages for the staff, especially since so many of the complaints about AA - and the other legacy carriers - is centered directly on the staff.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 9):

LOL..............................


Get YOUR facts Correct !!!!!!!!!


SWA Pilot that fly on Avg of 50 less seats than AA Pilots had a 2006 W2 of $28,000.00 MORE than the Avg AA Pilot!!!!!!!!!

Source MIT................

Before I head to LHR.................................


I just want to say THANK YOU to all our PAX for riding American Airlines over the years.................


One of the many Pilots standing in the Flight Deck door to THANK every PAX for flying AA..................IS Myself .


We will continue to make EVERY Flight at AA the most Comfortable and SAFEST Ever.


But we will draw the line when MY KIDS COLLEGE FUND IS TRANSFEED TO MANAGEMENT !!!!!!!!!!!!!



Again...............Thanks for Flying AA.

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter): We will NOT subsidize the Traveling Public moving forward

Then you won't be employed moving forward. That's pretty simple.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 3): What happens to the airline once these services have been sold off, the profits squandered, and another economic down-turn comes their way?

I assume you're referring to investors pressuring airlines like AMR to sell assets like AAdvantage, etc. In AMR's case, though, management doesn't want to sell them - of course, if the unions keep this bullsh*t up, they may have no choice.

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 10): However, a series of disastrous decisions by AMR management- from ill-advised purchases and attempted purchases of other carriers to poor marketing decisions to expensive stock buy-backs- exacerbated our company's financial woes.

Would you care to enlighten us on exactly which "disastrous decisions" AMR management made in time immediately before 9/11. TWA may seem like one now - in hindsight - but pre-9/11, that was one of the smoothest deals in airline history: AA was getting tons of assets worth of value for penny on the dollar.

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 10): The pilots of American Airlines stepped up and saved the AMR corporation from impending financial disaster with a series of massive concessions.

Well, thank God for the pilots then. Where would AA be without them?! Those stupid, useless flight attendants, mechanics, gate and ticket agents, office workers, secretaries, and sales reps just sat around and ask for more - me, me, me - but thankfully those selfless pilots really stepped up to the plate!

Do you honestly hear yourself say this crap before you type it?

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 10): Some pilots suffered pay cuts as severe as 50%- all American pilots, who had not enjoyed a pay raise since 2000, suffered tremendous personal and financial hardship.

And that sucks, it really does. But seeing as pilots - on average - already earn far more on average than the average American, and certainly the average airline employee, its a bit harder for me to be sympathetic for their situation when their flight attendants with the same seniority literally make 1/4 of what captains make. I have no doubt it's caused tremendous personal and financial hardship for pilots - losing pay has a tendency of doing that for everyone.

But that's life, and that's reality. Should companies just go through history, never changing anything, and never making adjustments to labor costs to satisfy the market, just because they might "upset" people?

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 10): At the time the contract was ratified, the pilots were assured that they would share in any future successes of the company that they preserved.

As they have.

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 10): Management pay was restored to pre-2003 levels by late 2004 and bonus plans took effect.

Management pay hasn't been restored to anything, as pay hasn't really changed that much in the last four years for management - especially the VPs.

The stock options that management was granted was not granted in 2004, or 2007, but all the way back in 2003, and they were granted on the basis that they would be absolutely worthless unless management delivered strong financial performance and boosted the stock price. With the huge help from labor concessions plus - minor detail - a bit of sound, prudent fiscal decision-making, management has done just that.

But again, just as I said in the other thread, this whole ridiculous proposition by some overly-emotional pilots that management just decided to give themselves raises because of what a great job they were doing is just completely false on two counts: 1) management didn't decide anything - these bonuses were set by the Board of Directors, and 2) these stock options were only worth anything if management did one thing and one thing only: boost the stock price. And they did just that. But back in 2003 when they were granted, there was at least a 50/50 shot as to whether AMR would be able to survive and the stock price would go up. As it turns out, the stock price skyrocketed, and AMR managers got rewarded - as did pilots and all other full-time U.S. employees on payroll, but will get to that.

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 10): In 2006, the top 5 AMR managers received $33.9 million in compensation, 29% more than the next highest management team in the industry.

Well, seeing as the top 5 AMR managers' base pay has been for about the last decade significantly lower than the industry average - and dramatically, dramatically lower than companies of similar size to AMR outside the airline industry, I'd say that's not really that big of a jump.

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 10): At the same time, the pilots have not shared in the recovery of our airline as promised.

Oh that's just bullsh*t and you know it.

Pilots have "shared" in the recovery of AMR more than any other single workgroup, by far. The stock options alone that the pilots were granted, if they played their cards right, is more than some of the level 4 managers at AA got from the bonus plan. The options AMR gave each pilot were potentially worth over $33,000. Not to mention profit-sharing, which each and every full-time pilot is going to get next year, and it is probably going to be fairly substantial. And not to mention the granddaddy of all sacred airline pilot perks: their multi-million-dollar pensions, which every single AMR pilot still has. Every single pilot's defined benefit pension is still there, and still being fully funded by AMR, unlike at any single other airline in the U.S. As you and I both know that some pilots' cash-out upon age 60 retirement is in the $3-4 million range, I wouldn't be complaining too much if I was you.

I'm sure you could find a few pilots - to say nothing of other employees - at airlines like USAirways and Northwest that would kill to have been able to "share in the recovery" of their airlines as well as AMR's pilots have been able to share in the recovery of AA.

I suppose you could say that, as the saying goes, "the grass is always greener," but looking around at your peers at other airlines, AA777ER, I have to ask you: could you actually give us an example of a single other pilot workgroup at another major U.S. airline that you feel has a better total compensation package - salary, benefits, profit-sharing, stock options, pension - than you and other AA pilots? Just one.

[Edited 2007-10-11 18:27:17]

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 16): SWA Pilot that fly on Avg of 50 less seats than AA Pilots had a 2006 W2 of $28,000.00 MORE than the Avg AA Pilot!!!!!!!!!

Why don't you go and work for them then? Just a thought, maybe you would be happier. Have fun in London.

AA777ER--the market will determine whether "Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay", not a whining union member such as yourself...

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter): Will Cost $1.5 Million more/Daay or $5/PAX or a Starbucks Latte !

From the airline that took away one olive from each meal to save a few bucks......You give us back our olive and you can have my Starbucks......

Every other Legacy has made strides since 9/11 in regards to adjusting to the "post 9/11" era, As has been mentioned already, AA seems to be on the top of everyone's complaint list.......Maybe its time AA look at theirself before coming after the consumer.

I'm not saying it's fair, or comparing it with the situation now, but it is kind of funny and this thread eerily reminded me of it.

Does anyone else remember this little gem from a few AA-APA negotiations ago, back in the mid-1990s?

Still gets me every time.

>>>

HELP FEED THE PILOTS

It's just not right. Thousands of pilots in our very own country are living at or just below the six-figure salary line. And if that wasn't bad enough, many of them may go several weeks or months without a paycheck if they are forced by AA management to strike.

But now you can help. For about $300 a day--that's less than the price of a 25" television set--you can help keep a pilot economically viable during his time of need.

Three hundred dollars a day may not seem like a lot of money to you, but to a pilot it could mean the difference between a vacation fishing in Florida or a Mediterranean cruise.

For you, $300 is nothing more than a half-month's rent or mortgage payment, but to a pilot $300 a day will almost replace his salary. Three hundred dollars a day will enable a pilot-in-need to upgrade his home computer, buy that CD player for his car, or enjoy a dinner at The Mansion.

"How will I know I'm helping?"** Each month, you will receive a complete financial report on the crew member you sponsor. Detailed information about his stocks, bonds, 401K, and real-estate holdings will be mailed to your home. You will be able to watch your pilot's net worth grow.

"How will they know I'm helping?" Your pilot will be told that he has a SPECIAL FRIEND within AMR management who just wants to help. Although the pilot won't know your name, he will be able to make collect calls to your home via a special operator, in case he needs additional funds.

I want to help. In the event of a strike by the APA, I would like to sponsor the crew member listed below (circle your selections):

**PILOT
**COPILOT
**NAVIGATOR
**F-100 CREW MEMBER
**SUPER-80 CREW MEMBER
**757 CREW MEMBER
**767 CREW MEMBER
**MD-11 CREW MEMBER
**AN ENTIRE FLIGHT CREW
**Please apply my donation to the crew member most in need.

Please charge the account listed below $326.25 per day ($350.22 for MD-11 crew members) for the duration of the strike. Please send me a picture of the crew member I've sponsored, along with a set of "wings" and my very own SCOPE badge.

( ) Mastercard
( ) Visa
( ) American Express
( ) Diner's Club
( ) AAsset Card
Send completed forms to the APA, or enroll by phone:
800-APA-PILOT.

Note: Sponsors agree not to contact the crew members or their families in person or by other means including, but not limited to, telephone calls, letters, E-mail, or third persons. Contributions are not tax-deductible. In the event no strike occurs, sponsors agree to a one-time administrative charge of $500 to cover the administrative costs of this program.

If AA777ER is so unhappy he is free to work anywhere else. The beautiful part of the USA is that he can go to work in aviation consulting, open a business, or flip fries.... OR deal with the reality that business changes and we are in a capitalistic economy.

AA777ER have you ever owned a business? Was it successful? Did you have employees?

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 24): If AA777ER is so unhappy he is free to work anywhere else.

He can even work for another airline, right now!

I wish my industry was like that. When our Writer's Guild of America union leaders decide to strike, nobody is allowed to work anywhere, and anyone who does will be banned from the union for life. This means that as soon as the contract is signed, be it a week or a year later, anyone who works in the interim will NEVER WORK IN THE INDUSTRY AGAIN, or at least never be allowed to write for television or any studio film (where the real money is). Period.

And we work freelance in the first place. We are independent contractors who are still banned from working, even if we are not union members (and many of us aren't because we aren't allowed to join until they say we can). So, we have no chance to earn income during our strike in our field, and those who aren't yet union don't even get any of the strike fund to tide us over.

So before you pilots bitch about how underpaid you are for working far fewer hours a month at a secure job at one of the highest payscales in your industry, think about how absurd you sound to those of us who are not as lucky to be as poorly treated as you are.

In other words, get a life!

That is all.

I think someone's been hitting the cool-aid a little hard recently!

Are your current leaders willing to be hit with multi-million dollar court judgements?  

Will it be another sick out? Or a go slow program? I'm sure you'll come up with
something inventive this time  

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2): After all, isn't that what you are telling us? That we should just smile and pay $5 more per segment so that you can get your OVERPAID wages back? You were overpaid in 2000. You were overpaid in 2003. Now you are fairly paid, and it's not fair and you want everyone else to pay?

I would go with:
"Now you are less overpaid..."

here is an idea... Arpey and crew up in the board room should do it, tack on a $5 pilot surcharge to give the pilots their raise. next month they can add a $3 dollar flight attendant surcharge when they also want their old wages, the month after another $3 for the mx workers and then all the good people will pay the extra $11 to fly AA over their competitors because AA is nice to their employees.... and when that doesn't happen and AA goes Chapter 11, they can just take it all back again and start over.


I mean, really... c'mon. AA is under fire from investors to perform, it's a cut-throat market. We likely will not see airline salaries reach the levels they were at in the late 90s adjusted for inflation.... ever again. It's not ideal, it's probably not even "fair" in many cases, but capitalism is survival of the fittest.

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 17): One of the many Pilots standing in the Flight Deck door to THANK every PAX for flying AA..................IS Myself .

You are a pilot at AA? This should make all of you a little nervous next time you are flying AA.

One of the greatest problems leading to the massive pay cuts in the legacy airline industry and the difficulty in restoring some of them are the retirement costs, especially traditional pensions and retiree health care subsidies. The low cost carriers, who but for Southwest, are non-union and are never expected to ever have to pay out any retirement benefits - only 401(k)'s and no medicare supplement insurance. That puts the legacies at a tremendous disadvantage.
The pilots have a special problem as they have to retire at 60 from commercial flying due to obsolete laws yet can't collect social security or medicare for several years. Due their age, they may be very limited as to how to continue being employed and despite high pay, may have personal expenses such as from divorce that has also eaten their pay that is left and can't really afford retiring by 60.
Raising fares so could pay something like the old wages won't really help as it just wouldn't be $5 per flight more - it would have to be $ 20-100 more. Then you have the much higher costs of fuel that would eat up much of that additional income too.

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 11): AMR managers received over $260 million in bonuses between April 2006 and April 2007. If divided amongst the pilots this would equal an approximate average pay raise of 11% per year over those two years.

they did nt receive cash they received stock options which vest over a 4-5 year sliding scale and is paid only when the stock is sold , and in 5 years who knws if that stock will be worth anything?

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 11): AMR management compensation has increased over 900% since 2003 (Source:SEC Filings, APA Internal Analysis)

VERY wrong, this included non-vested stock optionw which are not income.

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 11): American Airlines pilots produced 9.2% more domestic revenue passenger miles per pilot and $600,000 more in revenue per pilot than Southwest pilots in 2006, according to Department of Transportation Statistics. (Source: DOT form 41 statistics)

That is truly funny..Revenue is based on ticket price which the pilots having nothing to do with, unless you miraculously set the ticket prices, market the seats and sell them. What a pile of crap. the pilots were scheduled by scheduling software to maximize utilization also.

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 11): American Airlines pilots must requalify every nine months by completing an extensive series of emergency scenarios in advanced aircraft simulators. Failure to do so results in termination.

So does the 24,000 a year ERJ FO flying into smaller airports and ding 6 segments a day while you do 2 or 3.

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 11): Airline Captains, and those First Officers who have Pilot-in-Command responsibility, must requalify medically every six months. Failure to meet stringent standards means removal from flight status.

A pilot flying Part 135 in a C402 into uncontrolled airports making 18,000 a year als has to do this.

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 11): Only a small number of airports have the facilities that allow an airliner to "land itself" using the autopilot. The vast majority of poor weather approaches are completed by pilots "hand-flying."

Miraculously there are thousands of pilots flying without Autoland, TCAS, GPWS, FADEC , and full EFIS into small airports in old aircraft every day that would LOVE t have it as easy as you do.

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 11): Pilots avoid thunderstorms and other hazardous weather themselves through the use of airborne weather radar. Correct radar technique takes years of experience to perfect. The energy in a typical summer thunderstorm is more than sufficient to severely damage or destroy an airliner.

This is taught to a 50 hour Private pilot too, god thing after 10 years of experience and thousands flight hours you too can understand "BIg dark clouds make boom boom"

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 16): SWA Pilot that fly on Avg of 50 less seats than AA Pilots had a 2006 W2 of $28,000.00 MORE than the Avg AA Pilot!!!!!!!!!

because WN pilots FLY more

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 17): We will continue to make EVERY Flight at AA the most Comfortable and SAFEST Ever.

it's hard to feel safe knowing the pilot up front may be pissed off.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 18): TWA may seem like one now

It's funny how the AA pilots did a staple job to the TWA pilots and didn't think twice when they got laid off. Ever heard of Karma?

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter): We will NOT subsidize the Traveling Public moving forward !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Next time you go into McDonalds make sure you pay 9.84 for your number 1 combo meal so the workers there can make more than 7 dollars an hour also. I am sure you would be happy to pay extra for every good or service you buy since there are 10's of millions of workers out there not making what they "should".

Quoting Commavia (Reply 18): its a bit harder for me to be sympathetic for their situation when their flight attendants with the same seniority literally make 1/4 of what captains make.

Just curious, what should an FA make in comparison to a Captain?

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 10): The pilots of American Airlines stepped up and saved the AMR corporation from impending financial disaster

Boy you've got a lot of outrageous and misplaced chutzpah. They also cured cancer, invented the internet, and died for your sins. I managed to find a picture of an AA pilot:

Y'know, I'm very much a supporter of pilots - but AA's guys better PRAY this never goes before an arbitrator, because a quick look at the payscales shows AA is far and away the highest of the "Big Six" network carriers:

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter): Will Cost $1.5 Million more/Daay or $5/PAX or a Starbucks Latte ! GET OVER IT..................... We will NOT subsidize the Traveling Public moving forward !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol, you don't understand anything about capitalism, right?
Travellers have a choice. Do you go to a supermarket who charges 20% more for the same goods as the other supermarket around the corner, just because it pays their staff nice wages? I don't think so. Since 2003, the lowest rates on say NYC-LAX r/t went up from say $120 to $250. Passengers don't complain about that, they were aware that $120 was 'too good to be true'
but again, why would they pay $260 to fly AA and get surly flight attendants like you and skeleton service if they can fly a competitor for $250 with probably nicer service (Delta, JetBlue, Continental come into mind) ? If the staff there feels they are underpaid, they can vote with their feet and swap jobs.

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 17): But we will draw the line when MY KIDS COLLEGE FUND IS TRANSFEED TO MANAGEMENT !!!!!!!!!!!!!

But why should the passengers pay for this? this is not solving the problem at all. Basically you are saying it pisses you off that the money is going to top management, therefore, the PAX should pay 5$ to compensate for it.

If what it's being said is correct, ie:

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 11): AMR management compensation has increased over 900% since 2003 (Source:SEC Filings, APA Internal Analysis)

I am not against pilots unions trying to making benefits more equally distributed to everybody. But making the PAXs does not solve anything.

Quoting PITRules (Reply 33): Just curious, what should an FA make in comparison to a Captain?

It's not for me to say - it's up to the market to dictate.

But if I had my way, the flight attendants would make just as much or more than the pilots because, after all, while we here all the time about how the pilots have the ultimately responsibility, 250 lives weighing on them, pressure, special training, etc., it's also important to recognize that while the pilots may have responsibility for 250 people, they never have to see them.

The FAs are the ones back in steerage with the masses, wading through crap (sometimes literally) and having to put up with outrageous treatment from customers on a day-in, day-out basis. Pilots just close the door and they're gone for four hours.

Not minimizing the importance of the pilots, but I wish the pay better reflected the importance of the flight attendants.

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 16): SWA Pilot that fly on Avg of 50 less seats than AA Pilots had a 2006 W2 of $28,000.00 MORE than the Avg AA Pilot!!!!!!!!!

Great! Do you work for Southwest?

Thought not, then its irrelevant. Pay is based off of seniority at WN, not the size of the aircraft flown. You're comparing apples to eggplants.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 37): Pay is based off of seniority at WN, not the size of the aircraft flown.

Um, minor detail: that might have something to do with the fact that Southwest only flies one airplane, with a size variance between aircraft variants of less than 25 seats.

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 21): Every other Legacy has made strides since 9/11 in regards to adjusting to the "post 9/11" era

By going into bankruptcy, renegotiating their costs and dumping their pensions (thereby screwing the employees who had faithfully paid into the program).

That's hardly what I'd call 'making strides'.

Now, to the matter at hand: AA777ER, your pay is determined by what the market can bear.

http://airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/american.html



Unless you're that first year Capt/FO, I'd suggest you stop whining about how bad things are.

Quoting MattRB (Reply 39): Unless you're that first year Capt/FO, I'd suggest you stop whining about how bad things are.

Exactly.

At the monthly minimum of 64 hours for a pilot with enough seniority to hold lines, that equals - for example - an average annual salary (assuming absolutely no overtime or any flying over minimum) of over $131,000/year for a topped-out 757 captain (which just about all AA pilots flying are) pilot. For 2007, when there are people will to do your job for 40% less than what you're getting paid, that ain't bad. Not to mention that this is calculated based on 64 hours of work per month, or roughly 16 hours per week. There are people in the world who literally work 4x that amount of time each week and don't make 1/3 of that salary.

I'm certainly not criticizing anyone for trying to get a raise: that's the prerogative of any individual - to try and get more. The pilots would be stupid if they didn't try and get more.

But at the same time, for those of us who aren't lucky enough to still have union-protected seniority jobs, multi-million-dollar pensions, and six-figure salaries, like I said, that ain't bad.

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 11): AMR managers received over $260 million in bonuses between April 2006 and April 2007. If divided amongst the pilots this would equal an approximate average pay raise of 11% per year over those two years.

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 11): AMR management compensation has increased over 900% since 2003 (Source:SEC Filings, APA Internal Analysis)

Seems to me that your union did a piss poor job negotiating. If I were the union negotiator, I'd walk in with one and only one demand. The pilots will take the exact same percentage pay cut that management will and likewise will receive the exact same bonus/raise schedule. If we're all in this together then let's all put our money where our mouth is. If that's not the case, then don't ask me to sacrifice when you're not going to do the same.

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 11): American Airlines pilots must requalify every nine months by completing an extensive series of emergency scenarios in advanced aircraft simulators. Failure to do so results in termination.

Did you know that management has to "requalify" 100's of times every nine months. Every manager knows that they're just one bad decision away from being fired. Take it from someone who sits at the #2 position in an organization, I have nobody to fall back on. I have no co-pilot on the difficult calls. I have to get the call right the first time, with no simulator practice, and if I'm wrong the company can go under. You want to talk about pressure, I'd love to have to only justify my position once every nine months.

Quoting Pope (Reply 41): The pilots will take the exact same percentage pay cut that management will and likewise will receive the exact same bonus/raise schedule.

Weren't they offered similar stock compensation but turned it down in favor of hard compensation?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 42): Weren't they offered similar stock compensation but turned it down in favor of hard compensation?

No, they actually got stock option compensation.

Each APA member got over 900 stock options with a $5 strike price, meaning that if pilots exercised them at peak value - i.e., when AMR's stock price was it its highest point since the '03 $1.25 low (or around this past spring at about $41) - the options were valued at about $33,000 minus capital gains and brokers fees. Doesn't make up for their concessions, but it's nothing to sneeze at, either.

Quoting MattRB (Reply 39): their pensions

in the US Pensions are 100% paid by the company and are not required to be offered to employees. The vast majority of employees in the US have no pension plan whatsoever. Our 401K and IRAs down here is similiar to your RRSPs up there.


No employee's contribution to a 401k can ever be taken by an employer, that is illegal and jail time follows those that take an employee's money.

What gripes me about the comment of the thread starter and those who are whining about their pay is that they feel an entitlement to have their pay returned to a certain level just because the economy has picked up. How many other industries do this?

In the last 25 years, I have been made "redundant" three times due to the corporations I've worked for downsizing and eliminating jobs, or by being purchased by another company. Not once in those three times did management offer me a chance to keep my job by taking an xx% salary cut. It was simply, "you and your coworkers are being phased out in x months, sorry but that's economics". Only one of the three offered a severance package, and it was laughable. Then again, I didn't have a whining union standing behind me puffing out their chests and making noise, though I doubt I would have been a member. I was in a union once when I was in my early 20's working in a factory. They went on strike and when I attended a union meeting to try and find out when they were going to start talking to management, all they wanted to do was go after the scabs crossing the picket line. That told me all I needed to know about unions.

You people who are complaining do have a choice you know. If you are so disgruntled with your jobs, then QUIT. The stress is likely not worth it. Otherwise, accept what you have and stop giving me, the passenger who pays your salary, grief because I can get a cheap ticket because AA has to lower fares to compete. No one is expendable. I will say many of my friends work for airlines, including many from the years i lived in Dallas. Personally I would not do it and deal with the b.s. that the front line people have to put up with from pax. Still, YOU chose the profession you are in and you knew (unless you were incredibly naive) the industry you work in is very volatile. You knew the risks and also the benefits. Just stop blaming the passengers for your problems. If it were not for us, you would already be unemployed and you'd be realizing you would be more than happy having accepted pay cuts in order for your employer to survive. If you want sympathy from the people who patronize your company, you are not going to get it by carrying a chip on your shoulder.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2): The airline employees owe us! They should voluntarily take even more pay cuts and smile while doing so!

Ha the attitude of entitlement. Now theres someone who does not get it. WOW you pay a whopping $159.00 to fly from New York to Savannah and YOU want somthing more than a seat and a soda with a pack of pretzels? Haahahaah I could laugh at that. Not untill I am making at MINIMUM one dollar per seat per hour or there equivlant. I make $23.00 an hour and there are potentially between 70 and 50 people in my hands at any given time. I hope your not serious.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 3): The current crop of airline CEO's need to be taken out and shot

I will raise my glass to that!

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 4): 3. Employees like AA pilots are entitled to a higher wage and that market dynamics will not apply

I will also raise my glass to that!

Quoting N710PS (Reply 46): make $23.00 an hour and there are potentially between 70 and 50 people in my hands at any given time

You should be making 35 an hour or more Regional pilots are way underpaid. Captains at AA though? the days of $200 a hour for AA senior pilots are over, it's just more than is reasonable to expect a140,000 a year income (which still puts them in the top 5% of all US wage earners)

Most general practicioner doctors don't even make 75 dollars an hour after paying all their expenses these days.

[Edited 2007-10-12 07:33:53]

Why not just give each employee there own personal tip jar!! Hell we already check ourselves in and print our own boarding passes, why not tag the luggage ourselves and be done with it. Look at the number of positions being eliminated by technology and be happy yours is not one of them, YET!