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MaverickM11
Posts: 18285
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:34 pm

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 48):
Look at the number of positions being eliminated by technology and be happy yours is not one of them, YET!

But with demands for a 30% wage increase from an already very good salary, look for UAVs at an airport near you soon! Or UAAVs rather Silly
I don't take responsibility at all
 
ckfred
Posts: 5188
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:36 pm

Quoting PA110 (Reply 3):
These so-called ancillary services were one of the few things keeping revenue coming in the door. What happens to the airline once these services have been sold off, the profits squandered, and another economic down-turn comes their way? Nothing to fall back on? Bye Bye Airline! Unbelievable. I can't believe these clowns are allowed to run airlines. These guys are starting to make Ken Lay look positively honorable.

Remember that it's large investors that are try to "unlock shareholder value" by forcing sell offs of FF programs, regional carriers, and maintenance bases. In the case of AMR, it's a investment group based in Iceland that is trying to force the issue. I believe the group owns between 7 and 10 percent of the outstanding shares.

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 10):
As AMR became profitable in 2006, the top 1000 managers began to receive bonuses that would total over 250 million dollars by April of 2007, with the majority going to the top 50 managers. In 2006, the top 5 AMR managers received $33.9 million in compensation, 29% more than the next highest management team in the industry. At the same time, the pilots have not shared in the recovery of our airline as promised.

I was under the impression that no one at AA had gotten a raise.

There was an article in the Wall Street Journal several months ago that took APA and AA's other unions to task for comparing the pay of unionized employees to the salaries and other compensation of management. You should compare the compensation of AA's management to compensation of management at other carriers. In that comparison, AA's management is underpaid, which is why AA has been losing more executives and managers than other carriers. Several years ago, UA hired away 3 of AA's VPs with big fat raises.

Then, there was an op-ed piece in the Journal, about 2 or 3 weeks ago, written by Robert B. Reich, Clinton's Secretary of Labor, arguing that executives ARE NOT OVERPAID. With the global competition in business today, executives must constantly evaluate their business models and operations. Running a large corporation is far harder today than it was 30 years ago, when companies pretty much ran themselves.

If you think AMR is the lone bad boy in terms of looking out for its executives, you're wrong. My wife's former employer used to have a bonus program for all employees. Then, it was taken away effective with fiscal year '03. It took my wife 4 years to get her salary up to where it was with bonus.

But, the executives got to keep their bonuses.

By the way, your union president is not a very smart negotiator. My father used to negotiate contracts for a Fortune 50 company and learned that you never ever negotiate in public. He was always fieldong phone calls from the press, and he simply gave vague answers until there was a tentative agreement or the union walked out.

That letter that your president sent to the press probably irritated a number of AMR shareholders, including me. Whatever sympathy I had for the pilots is completely gone.
 
aogdesk
Posts: 748
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RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:40 pm

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 24):
AA777ER have you ever owned a business? Was it successful? Did you have employees?

Once he gets to LHR, he'll probably copy and paste something from the union about how his experience on the flight deck trumps business experience. After all, if you're a pilot, you pretty much know all there is to know.

This isn't to say that I completely disagree with him about some highly questionable executive mgmt decisions within the airlines over the last few years, but geez, he actually thinks he's going to sway some opinions with his charm?

Sorry Mr SkyGod, better turn up your internal wx radar.....wind shear ahead....wind shear ahead..
 
commavia
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RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:50 pm

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 50):
That letter that your president sent to the press probably irritated a number of AMR shareholders

To say nothing of members of the flying public.

If the APA wants to make this a really public catfight P.R. battle with AMR, they're going to have to hire a better P.R. adviser than they obviously have now. As you say - and I agree 100% - these sorts of things can't be effectively handled in public. And if this is APA's idea of how to fight this battle in public - then this is going to end with everybody losing, because AMR will go out of business.

Saying the outrageous, childish and incredibly unprofessional things that this guy said not only make him look like not a moron and an a**hole, but it also makes AMR management look pretty good by comparison. Not to mention that the discussion we're having here on A.net about whether or not pilots should really be complaining, and whether they're really worth it, is a discussion that could easily be occurring in the public if AMR really wants it to be. If AA wants to play public relations hardball (a la APA), they can easily raise the exact same points we are: that AMR pilots are now among the highest-paid in the industry, the only ones will still-funded DB pensions, profit sharing, tens of thousands in stock options, etc., while management at AMR is - at least by market standards - far underpaid relative to other airlines (and even further underpaid compared to non-airline companies even half the size of AMR).

The truth of this is that - as other posters have alluded to - this is the 21st century. This isn't the pre-deregulation days when the prices were fixed and thus the government, the airlines, and the unions all pretty much came to a sort of "understanding" on compensation and labor costs because they knew profits were virtually guaranteed. It's 2007. In 2007, in the new economy, you can't just get paid 30% more than everyone else "because." If you want to earn more in 2007, you have to justify it - you have to add or create value and actually show why you're worth it.

Are AMR pilots doing something that pilots at United, Delta, USAirways, Northwest, etc. aren't that would justify them getting paid significantly more than all of these other pilots?
 
access-air
Posts: 1577
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RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:26 pm

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 4):
Collusion is illegal and violators are guilty of anti-trust.

Except when it came to ALL the airlines cutting Travel Agent commsions...They seemed to be protected by some sort of thing but the funny thing was that if the Travel Agents decided to take action against the airlines, Collusion was used as the scare tactic to stave off any major boycotts by agents against the airlines....

I still think that had the airlines had moved to a paper ticketless system that allowed only travel agents to book travel instead of the general public, they might have been able to better control their pricing so they wouldnt all be making so many cuts in service....also like someone said before, because people HAVE to get from point A to B, pricing is irrelevent as long as everyone is playing by the same rules..like someone also said and as we all know Airlines have that monkey see monkey do metality.....Just my two cents...

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
777STL
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RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:30 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 38):
Um, minor detail: that might have something to do with the fact that Southwest only flies one airplane, with a size variance between aircraft variants of less than 25 seats.

Uhh yes, no kidding, that was implied. Hence why his comparison in invalid.

He should be comparing himself to DL, UA and CO, not WN.
PHX based
 
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snn2003
Posts: 249
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RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:50 pm

This is why I don't fly AA.....
On behalf of your entire Boston based crew, thanks for flying with us today.
 
PC12Fan
Posts: 2135
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:50 pm

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:00 pm

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 17):
I just want to say THANK YOU to all our PAX for riding American Airlines over the years.................

I haven't flown on AA since November 2003.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
EXAAUADL
Posts: 1740
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 3:48 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:03 pm

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter):
We will NOT subsidize the Traveling Public moving forward !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you really have no choice in that matter, if skybus comes along int oAA routes, youll have to match.

and you think its bad now, wait till the LCC model goes international..its already started in Asia with Jetstar and will only get worse when Ryan flies to the USA
 
dw9115
Posts: 382
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:54 pm

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:21 pm

Some of you pro-union people need to give the airlines more then one year to build a little cash up after 5 years of losses before you start to bleed them dry again.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6597
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:28 pm

Communique 1:
Dear AA777ER,
You can't win everything!
Signed,
Everyone else

Communique 2:
Dear Everyone Else,
Yes we can! We're a Union!
Signed,
AA777ER

Communique 3:
Dear AA777ER,
Then go and learn something from WN Union!
Signed,
Everyone else

Communique 4:
Dear Everyone Else,
Over my dead body, we don't learn from LCCs!
Signed,
AA777ER

Communique 5:
Dear AA777ER,
Then don't whine if they earn more than you!
Learn something from the other big six carriers then, Oh hang on, they earn less than you!
Signed,
Everyone Else.

Communique 6:
Dear Everyone Else,
You've all conspired with the CORPORAATIONS! We're gonna have a slowdown to punish you for conspiring with the evil mAAnAAgement!
Signed,
AA777ER

Communique 7:
Dear AA777ER,
Fine, we'll just fly someone else. Eventually, if no one flies AA because of your actions, you'll be redundant!
Signed,
Everyone Else

Communique 8:
Dear Everyone Else,
No ! We will not go down, because we're in a Union, who'll protect us! If AA goes bust, we'll ramraid another company (maybe the guys in Houston), and get everyone to be paid the equivalent of our pay and theirs combined, per person!
Signed,
AA777ER

Communique 9:
Dear AA777ER,
Ha Ha Ha!
Signed,
Who Cares!

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 47):
Why not just give each employee there own personal tip jar!!

Naaah, mate, the Unions will take 75% of the tips to fund the PR of their next slow down campaign, which wouldn't be directed at the management, but at the customers... their demand? "We demand higher tips!"

Sorry guys, just couldn't resist it!
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
pnwtraveler
Posts: 1074
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RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:33 pm

I hope a certain Canadian airline's employees and unions are reading this. The backlash from travelers listed above is a huge clue and warning as to what their strategy should be. Certainly go ahead and bargain for your best deal. But cross the line and head into this entitlement nonsense, make the same dumb comments publically, and watch WestJet penetration of the Canadian market soar. Their current ad campaign of Westjet employees going to a ridiculous length beyond the call of duty because they are owners, isn't as hokey as it appears. For those who don't see it, one example is a businessman about to make a presentation realizes he left his presentation on the airplane he just took. Out of the meeting room comes a WestJet F/A and says hello your presentation is all loaded ready to go, I tweeked some of slides and ordered sushi for lunch, see you on your return flight. The message is clear, I look after you because I am tied to the success of this company.
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1745
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:31 pm

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter):
We will NOT subsidize the Traveling Public moving forward !!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
"We, the flying public, will not subsidize the ridiculous union payscales that pay a 30 year senior pilot too much money just because he/she's old."

I guess those self canceled.

Quoting AA777ER (Reply 16):
SWA Pilot that fly on Avg of 50 less seats than AA Pilots had a 2006 W2 of $28,000.00 MORE than the Avg AA Pilot!!!!!!!!!

They do more work in a day of flying compared to KXXX-EGGL. 110-137 PAX X 5 legs = 550-685 PAX in one day vs your 250-280 PAX in one day.

I think the days of pay for seats or bodies are on their way out. FedEx pays by seat position, IE: Capt., FO, FE. Type or size of the craft is irrelevant.
There is the argument that a 777 creates more revenue than an MD-80 or 737, thus higher pay. I'm not sure about that scenario,I'm not in yield management.

As far as pay for how many people pilots are responsible for,....ATC wishes they could get that gig. They would earn your annual salary in about 1 week.

ATC got a nice pay raise in 2000. Last year that was reversed and then some. $8.37hr starting pay. Some ATCs are quiting and going elsewhere or on to different careers. Some are retiring, and at 3X the FAA's predicted rate. New hires are leaving or not showing up. You have similar options. What are you willing to do. You are at the top of the heap now. Go with a reduced when you hit 50 and grab a G5, ACJ, or BBJ job.

We must adjust. APA,ALPA,AFA,NATCA,..etc. Let's face it, the glory days in aviation are gone. It's just another transportation related industry controlled by the marketplace.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
Desh
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:52 pm

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:42 pm

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter):
We will NOT subsidize the Traveling Public moving forward !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No wonder I stopped flying AA - the attitude seeps all over .....

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 31):
Next time you go into McDonalds make sure you pay 9.84 for your number 1 combo meal so the workers there can make more than 7 dollars an hour also. I am sure you would be happy to pay extra for every good or service you buy since there are 10's of millions of workers out there not making what they "should".

Well Said ........

Quoting N710PS (Reply 45):
there are potentially between 70 and 50 people in my hands at any given time

Please clarify - what do mean by "between 70 and 50 people in my hands at any given time" ? Hope you are NOT a pilot ....
"History is merely a list of surprises. It can only prepare us to be surprised yet again." - Kurt Vonnegut
 
777STL
Posts: 2770
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:22 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:45 pm

I love how these pro-union types make it out like its the customer's fault.

You know what, if you kill AA, that's fine. You're out of a job and I'll just fly on someone else. I don't *have* to fly AA. Heck, the only interest I have in seeing AA stay alive is my FF miles.
PHX based
 
CALMSP
Posts: 3465
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 3:18 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:54 pm

did AA77ER give up and not want to respond to anyone anymore??
 
n710ps
Posts: 1116
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:09 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:55 pm

Quoting Desh (Reply 61):
Please clarify - what do mean by "between 70 and 50 people in my hands at any given time" ? Hope you are NOT a pilot ....

How about YOU clarify your statement/question because I take safety very seriously. Not to mention most of the people on this site who do not wish to help the employee cause expect top end service, amenities, etc etc.... and still expect to spend less than 200 dollars on a round trip or in some cases a one way. Sorry folks but it does not work that way. So if you want the service bit your lip, open your wallet, and spend the money to match the service. It is not free and my labor is not cheap. The passenger attitude is terrible today and the class they show is minimal.

[Edited 2007-10-12 10:56:04]
There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
 
iaddca
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:36 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:56 pm

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter):
$5/PAX or a Starbucks Latte !

The AA product isn't worth another $5.

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter):
We will NOT subsidize the Traveling Public moving forward !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And we won't subsidize you. No more stabilization act welfare checks, no more inflated pilot salaries, and within a few years, no more American Airlines.
 
YULWinterSkies
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:42 pm

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:14 pm

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 4):
There is a series of mistaken assumptions....



Quoting ACVitale (Reply 4):
2. Airlines can raise fares and all airlines will match

Yet this is what oil companies do and it works. Of course it is illegal but how easy is it to be proven?

And they actually do : has anyone managed to fly a cheap flight around Christmas/New Year? AFAIK it is not really more expensive to fly an airplane at this precise time of the year...
When I doubt... go running!
 
acvitale
Posts: 1913
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:20 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 29):
may have personal expenses such as from divorce that has also eaten their pay that is left and can't really afford retiring by 60.

Unfortunately, Divorce and other personal problems should not drive one's paycheck. The fact that they cannot manage their home life and they slept around on a trip and got caught is not the employers fault. Hence... They need to suck it up and deal with it and only take 6 vacations this year instead of 8 or 9.

Quoting N710PS (Reply 45):
Quoting ACVitale (Reply 4):
3. Employees like AA pilots are entitled to a higher wage and that market dynamics will not apply

I will also raise my glass to that!

I hope you realize that if you read the full thread the statement was this is not realistic. In short... The old days are gone boys. We are in a capitalistic economy and you are already the highest paid.... There is no parity plus...
 
777STL
Posts: 2770
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:22 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:26 pm

Quoting N710PS (Reply 64):
Not to mention most of the people on this site who do not wish to help the employee cause expect top end service, amenities, etc etc.... and still expect to spend less than 200 dollars on a round trip or in some cases a one way. Sorry folks but it does not work that way. So if you want the service bit your lip, open your wallet, and spend the money to match the service. It is not free and my labor is not cheap. The passenger attitude is terrible today and the class they show is minimal.

The way I see it, if the unions' get what they want, it'll just be that much longer before the actual, physical product is improved. That money has to come from somewhere, if they give the greedy unions what they want, it will be just that much longer before we get new aircraft, interior refurbs, added amenities and services, etc.

And so from a pax perspective, what tangible benefit do we get from the unions getting what they want?

Nothing, we will get nothing. Service likely won't improve, but I don't think it's terrible in the first place.

So why should I support a raise for you which won't benefit me, as opposed to enhancements that could be undertaken with that money that would benefit me? (Nevermind the fact that I think you're a bunch of spoiled brats, but that's beside the point)
PHX based
 
VonRichtofen
Posts: 4296
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 3:10 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:54 pm

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 63):
did AA77ER give up and not want to respond to anyone anymore??

He's busy subsidizing a trip to LHR for a few hundred people.
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1745
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:09 pm

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 63):
did AA77ER give up and not want to respond to anyone anymore??

How about a little slack. Not every one lives in front of their computer, even at work.

Probably doing his job on the North Atlantic Tracks. He'll be back.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15101
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:11 pm

Quoting 777STL (Reply 68):
The way I see it, if the unions' get what they want, it'll just be that much longer before the actual, physical product is improved.

It's mostly union, singular, in that the APA is the one making the unrealistic demands, both because of the scope, and because they are already well paid, both my industry standards and by USA standards.

I don't begrudge some of the F/As for wanting some more pay, for example. Maybe the market has determined they don't deserve it, but they aren't making upper class wages right now and demanding more...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
SkyyMaster
Posts: 1082
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:34 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:15 pm

Quoting N710PS (Reply 64):
So if you want the service bit your lip, open your wallet, and spend the money to match the service. It is not free and my labor is not cheap. The passenger attitude is terrible today and the class they show is minimal.

I, the passenger, do not directly dictate what your employer chooses to charge me for my flight. The competition and the market does that. If I or anyone can get a lower fare, it's likely the lower fare wins out. Not every passenger has a bad attitude. Some do, I will agree. But you obviously do not get it from a pax perspective. When we see pissy attitudes from front line airline employees, the odds are you employees are going to get a pissy attitude thrown back at you. I do not owe you anything. If I choose to fly on your airline, YOU owe me a decent level of respect and service. If you have a beef with your employer, you do NOT take it out on your customers. If you do, they will not continue to be your customers and you will eventually find yourself jobless. I wholeheartedly agree many airline employees have thankless jobs. However, it is your decision to stay in that job. Therefore, it is your responsibility to make sure I receive a level of service that will keep me coming back. If you don't do that, I have plenty of other choices. You people are acting like spoiled brats, that we, the people who ultimately pay your salaries, owe you more. If I had the attitude you have, I'd be out on my butt in a heartbeat. Nobody owes you anything. You have to earn it, and that includes respect. With posts like these, you aren't going to get that respect. When that surly attitude flows over into your job performance, you aren't going to get any respect from the pax either. I could care less if your labor is not cheap. Stop whining and offer something productive instead of playing the victim.
 
777STL
Posts: 2770
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:22 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:24 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 71):
I don't begrudge some of the F/As for wanting some more pay, for example. Maybe the market has determined they don't deserve it, but they aren't making upper class wages right now and demanding more...

Nothing against F/As(and I'm sure I'll catch a wrath of shit for this), but what they do isn't exactly rocket science. They should be paid what they're worth, and there's certainly no shortage of willing candidates looking to become F/As.

But yes, they don't get to mandate what they're worth, the market does that.
PHX based
 
platinumfoota
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:39 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:33 pm

I for one agree with AA777ER AA needs to reward their pilots for all their pay cuts they have taken and for saving the airlines, the airline has given bonuses to all its management and nothing has been given back to thouse employees who took big cuts. I am sure he is a great pilot and im sure it does not affect his performance in the air. If u think about it if it wasnt for current airline employees most of the current airline would not exist after 9/11 therefore the customer would not have a choice in what airline to fly, their would be one major airline and with no competition the fares would sky rocket. And from talking to different airline pilots this is how MANY of them feel not just AA pilots but many major US careers. I think its a matter of the airline making money but not passing it down to all of its employees not just pilots.

I think most people fail to realize that the pilots determine weather your going to arrive to your destination alive. They have hundreds of peoples lives in their hands daily and no one gives them the respect they deserve. I hope the situation is resolve really soon. I feel that a strike is iminent among US Pilots if something is not done soon.
Never forget United 93
 
PITrules
Posts: 2109
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 11:27 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring

Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:33 pm

Just when I think the thread starter is over the top, incorrect on many accounts, unrealistic, and just towing the union line, I have to read something like this:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 35):
Quoting PITRules (Reply 33):
Just curious, what should an FA make in comparison to a Captain?

It's not for me to say - it's up to the market to dictate.

But if I had my way, the flight attendants would make just as much or more than the pilots because, after all, while we here all the time about how the pilots have the ultimately responsibility, 250 lives weighing on them, pressure, special training, etc., it's also important to recognize that while the pilots may have responsibility for 250 people, they never have to see them.

The FAs are the ones back in steerage with the masses, wading through crap (sometimes literally) and having to put up with outrageous treatment from customers on a day-in, day-out basis. Pilots just close the door and they're gone for four hours.

Unfortunately, there are people like this who actually believe Flight Attendants should make as much as Captains. Lets see...should a job that takes a high school diploma and 4 weeks of company training pay as much as a job requiring a 4 year degree followed by 10 years of crap jobs making between $15,000-$30,000 just to get on with a career carrier, where it will take another 10-20 years to make Captain? Of course not, and any implication that the compensation for both jobs be the same is more ridiculous than many of the thread starters points.

It is because of the two extreme and opposing views of AA777ER and Commavia why we have todays system, a system where unions are a necessary evil. AA pilots lost up to 50% of their compensation during the bad times, as if to say that 50% of American's problems were the pilots' fault, which is ridiculous. Well, times are good now. Because of this screwed up system we have, it is now time for the AA pilots to get back as much as they can, and that means proposing compensation on the high end, and negotiating down to something in the middle.

In light of these management bonuses, I wish the AA pilots the best, and hope they get as much back as they can.

[Edited 2007-10-12 12:47:10]
FLYi
 
StarCityFlyr
Posts: 112
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:38 pm

Seems to me to be quite simple. If you want to pay your people more money, then you have to make the revenue up somewhere to pay it. Charge more for your product or reduce your fixed expenses. If, though, someone offers the same product at a lower price, then it's up to the consumer as to whether he or she is willing to pay the higher price for the same service.

Now if you can differentiate yourself from your lower priced competition by offering say...more reliable on time performance, better cabin service, reliable baggage service...maybe you can make a case for charging more. Again, it will be up to what the market will bare.

This notion that you have to sell your product for less than what it costs to produce it is utter nonsense regardless of the industry.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15101
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:38 pm

Quoting 777STL (Reply 73):
Nothing against F/As(and I'm sure I'll catch a wrath of shit for this), but what they do isn't exactly rocket science. They should be paid what they're worth, and there's certainly no shortage of willing candidates looking to become F/As.

Hey, I agree. F/As often do a great job, they are usually nice people, but it takes almost no education to be an F/A and the learned skill set is not intensive, and in today's domestic market at least, the bulk of their time is spent sitting around.

I had a similar job as a lifeguard (except the being away from home part). I had to take training courses, be prepared for emergencies that rarely ever happened, understand how to operate mechanical equipment, provide water for patrons multiple times a shift, as well as clean up the facility before and after, and listen to patrons bitch, bitch, bitch about everything. But a lot of my time was spent sitting around. And I didn't get paid much at all. F/As really get mad when I compare their job to a lifeguard, but frankly, it's pretty damn close in many situations. Other than the flying, of course. But at least I had to stay in physical shape...

But it doesn't mean I begrudge F/As for wanting more pay, if they can somehow get it. Because they are not living high on the hog. I would have liked more money, too.

It's the whiney international pilots who make a lot of money, have so much time off they can have a second job, and still complain, even as they see the rest of their so called "team" of staff making far less than them and working longer hours. They annoy me.

I wonder if the pilots realize how petty they sound to their own F/As and ground staff? I doubt it, since the union convinces them they are all "brothers in arms." Yeah, sure...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
iaddca
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:36 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:50 pm

Quoting Platinumfoota (Reply 74):
current airline would not exist after 9/11

...if it weren't for the welfare checks we taxpayers gave airlines through the stabilization act
 
VS11
Posts: 1682
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:08 pm

AA777ER AA will have a lot of replying to do when he is back from London.
 
acvitale
Posts: 1913
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:20 pm

He will go to the APA union site and cut and paste the diatribe they spew. Expect no original, creative, logical responses. Too much kool aid has been spewed. Read above.
 
ckfred
Posts: 5188
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:52 pm

If passengers weren't willing to pay extra for MRTC, why would they pay $5 extra to pay the pilots?
With MRTC, passengers got something tangible for the extra money. What would they get for a $5 pilot surcharge? A captain and F/O with happier dispositions?

The funny thing is some of the APA leadership thought MRTC was a bad idea, because it raised unit costs. So, do they really think that passengers will pay extra, so that a captain can get a raise? A lot of people who are AAdvantage Gold or better make far less than captains and senior F/Os, so I don't think they will have any sympathy for the pilots.

Perhaps the president of the APA should talk to Ron Gettlefinger, the president of the UAW, about having to keep wages and compensation in check, so that employers can remain competitve.
 
jamman
Posts: 475
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 4:33 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring

Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:56 pm

Quoting AA777ER (Thread starter):
We will NOT subsidize the Traveling Public moving forward !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

While I don't agree with your management getting these bonus' and I do believe you guys should be paid more when you perform don't make the traveling public the bad guy, we do have other choices and you should thank us for our custom.

[Edited 2007-10-12 13:58:07]
Phoning it in from a place with no phones.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18285
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:06 pm

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 81):
What would they get for a $5 pilot surcharge?

Well it looks like AA will at least get that $5 surcharge each way domestically Silly

"CHICAGO, Oct 12 (Reuters) - AMR Corp (AMR.N: Quote, Profile, Research), parent of American Airlines, said on Friday it raised domestic round-trip fares by $10 to offset soaring fuel prices."
I don't take responsibility at all
 
XJetflyer
Posts: 148
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 6:40 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:31 pm

I just remembered why I stopped flying AA. Grow up! AA employees need to add better service and better aircraft before they start asking for higher fares. This is why I hate unions. Unions run companies out of business! Unions can never be happy with a fair wage and decent benefits. They always want more.

Maybe the public is tired of giving more for bad service. I hate to bring politics in to this, but you sound like someone on Capital hill saying, " 5 Bucks More, The Public Can Handle It!"

Give me a frigging break. Everyone always looks for the easier way. Instead of demanding the public to pay more, maybe you should look at ways to help your company save $$$$. Hey there's an idea!

I guess you could always get a piece of card board and make a sign and stand at the gate. Starving pilot does not make enough, donate $5 each please. Geeeezzz what's next!
 
SPREE34
Posts: 1745
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:09 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Fri Oct 12, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting Platinumfoota (Reply 74):
They have hundreds of peoples lives in their hands daily and no one gives them the respect they deserve.

No one gives them respect? I disagree. I respect them. (maybe it's a mutual thing) Are we talking about respect, or money?

As a pilot I always felt like I was respected. I didn't make a lot of money, (Pt135 and corporate) and moved on. I had fun and was respected.

As a controller I recall many conversations with people where awe, respect, and admiration for what I did was in the conversation. I had a lot of fun, worked my ass off, and made a decent salary. Last year the FAA decided we didn't deserve the salary. New guys hire in at poverty wages, and us old hands got a pay freeze. The pay freeze pretty much meant your annuity computation was frozen as well. I retired. I'll do something else. I'm still respected.

The FAA is having a hard time filling ATC positions these days. They are being told the pay isn't commensurate with the responsibility, or "no thanks, I'll stay in real estate". The market place at work.
They will probably have to bring the pay back up to at least the GS system, or expect the pool of willing candidates to dry up.

The airlines have people standing in line who want to fly airplanes. The carriers don't have to do anything. No big raise or give back. The market place at work.
When another pilot shortage comes along, the shoe will be on the other foot.

I could be completely full of shit here. But I'm respected.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 75):
Unfortunately, there are people like this who actually believe Flight Attendants should make as much as Captains.



Quoting PITrules (Reply 75):
It is because of the two extreme and opposing views of AA777ER and Commavia why we have todays system, a system where unions are a necessary evil.

Hold on there, get down off the high horse.

As I said - I never was minimizing the years of training and specialized skills it takes to be a pilot, and I think that the market should fairly pay both workers what they're worth. Like I said - it's not for me to say.

But, education is just one component of what a job is worth, and it doesn't always determine compensation. There are other determinants, like how difficult and demanding the job is. It doesn't take a 4-year degree and 10 years of training to be an NBA basketball player, but they can easily make more that a college professor who might have spent almost that long working on their thesis. Is that fair? Perhaps, perhaps not. Again, it's not for me to say.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 75):
AA pilots lost up to 50% of their compensation during the bad times, as if to say that 50% of American's problems were the pilots' fault, which is ridiculous.

That logic falls shockingly short, and I don't know where that came from.

First off, most AA pilots didn't give up anywhere near 50% of their total compensation, and secondly, even if they had, I don't remember anyone drawing the strange corollary that thus AMR pilots were "50% of American's problems." I'd say 9/11 and fuel prices figured a bit more prominently than a few overpaid pilots back around 2001-2003.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 75):
Well, times are good now.

I'm glad you think so. AMR is still sitting on a mountain of debt they need to pay off, and they still have pushy investors that are chomping at the bit for more, more, more.
 
ual777
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 18):

And that sucks, it really does. But seeing as pilots - on average - already earn far more on average than the average American, and certainly the average airline employee, its a bit harder for me to be sympathetic for their situation when their flight attendants with the same seniority literally make 1/4 of what captains make. I have no doubt it's caused tremendous personal and financial hardship for pilots - losing pay has a tendency of doing that for everyone.

The road to being a pilot is alot harder than that of the average American, and flight attendant too...

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 23):


If AA777ER is so unhappy he is free to work anywhere else. The beautiful part of the USA is that he can go to work in aviation consulting, open a business, or flip fries.... OR deal with the reality that business changes and we are in a capitalistic economy.

No he's not. All airlines operate on a seniority system and since he is flying to LHR he is obviously very senior.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
nyc2theworld
Posts: 246
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 11:58 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:47 am

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 24):
If AA777ER is so unhappy he is free to work anywhere else. The beautiful part of the USA is that he can go to work in aviation consulting, open a business, or flip fries.... OR deal with the reality that business changes and we are in a capitalistic economy.

 checkmark 

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 87):
No he's not. All airlines operate on a seniority system and since he is flying to LHR he is obviously very senior

That doesn't change the fact that he, or any other pilot actually, has the ability to change professions if he feel that his talents and experience will allow him to get a better paycheck by changing the industry he works in.
Always wonderers if this "last and final boarding call" is in fact THE last and final boarding call.
 
ual777
Posts: 1642
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:57 am

Quoting NYC2theworld (Reply 88):

That doesn't change the fact that he, or any other pilot actually, has the ability to change professions if he feel that his talents and experience will allow him to get a better paycheck by changing the industry he works in.

At age 45-50? I dont think so.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
PITrules
Posts: 2109
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 11:27 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring

Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:00 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 86):
Hold on there, get down off the high horse

Not on a high horse, just pointing out how it is ridiculous to say a Flight Attendant should make as much as a Captain. Do I need to quote you again?

Quoting Commavia (Reply 86):

That logic falls shockingly short, and I don't know where that came from.

It does fall short, and that's my point. I comes from the many people who think it is OK for pilots to take a 50% cut when times are bad, only to get a 10% raise when they are good. Then take another 50% hit during the next downturn until pilots make a tiny fraction of what they used to.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 86):

First off, most AA pilots didn't give up anywhere near 50% of their total compensation,

Some less than 50%, some more than 50% when they were downgraded to FO, and some 100% when they were furloughed.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 86):
I don't remember anyone drawing the strange corollary that thus AMR pilots were "50% of American's problems." I'd say 9/11 and fuel prices figured a bit more prominently than a few overpaid pilots back around 2001-2003.

Perhaps you should go back and read some of the posts and threads about how the"overpaid pilots" are partly to blame for the downfall of the legacies. Obviously the pilots are not 50% of the problem. So why should they have 50% (or 40% - it was only a ballpark figure) of compensation taken away when the industry is much stronger and management are giving themselves huge bonuses?

Over-simplistic? perhaps, but my point is why begrudge them the opportunity to get back what they gave up now that the industry has recovered? As you have said, the free market will decide, and the union will try to get as much back as they can, and I hope they do.
FLYi
 
bucky707
Posts: 955
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 2:01 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:10 am

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 46):
the days of $200 a hour for AA senior pilots are over,



Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 46):
Most general practicioner doctors don't even make 75 dollars an hour after paying all their expenses these days.

Pilots get paid per flight hour. Break it down by hours on duty there are no pilots making 200 an hour.

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 60):
FedEx pays by seat position, IE: Capt., FO, FE. Type or size of the craft is irrelevant.

Wrong. FedEx has two pay rates, one for widebody flying, one for narrowbody flying.

UPS has a single pay scale though.
 
Indy
Posts: 4941
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:28 am

Fault in my opinion lies with the company and the consumer.

For the company it is wrong to want the best equipment, the biggest hubs, the nicest terminals, the most elaborate network, and pay your executives huge bonuses all while gutting the pay of your workers.

For the consumers they can get over the idea of the $5000 car. I don't care how much you whine about the price you aren't going to get it. The cost of production is expensive. It is an expensive product. You aren't entitled to an expensive product at a low price. This applies to air travel. Airports are expensive to build and maintain. Jets are very expensive. To operate a jet requires a large staff. Airline employees are held to very high standards. Pilots have a lifetime of training and experience behind them. Air travel is that expensive car that you are not entitled to for $5000. Get over that idea. It is wrong to expect people to get their pay gutted so you can get an expensive product for cheap. Either you can afford to fly or you cannot. If you cannot I'd recommend a bus. A bus is cheaper than a plane. It doesn't take anything near the skill level to drive a bus as it does to fly a plane. As a result the cost to operate a bus is much less. There is your cheap car for those who cannot afford an expensive one.

I'd like to live in the Heffner mansion. I can only afford $150,000 for a house so I think it is the responsibility of the housing industry to supply me with a mansion for $150,000. That is the attitude of the traveling public.

Mr. Airline Executive Man... if you have to cut your workers pay so you can collect your 7 and 8 figure bonus then perhaps it is time you resign. If you can't afford to pay your highly skilled workers the pay rate they have earned then perhaps it is time to rethink your operating strategy. You are NOT entitled to keep everything you have and keep running everything you currently run and the whole time doing so while using the court system as a bully to rip off your workers. It may not be illegal but it is immoral.
IND to RDU to OKC in 18 months. This is what my life has become.
 
MattRB
Posts: 1357
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:49 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting Pnwtraveler (Reply 59):
I hope a certain Canadian airline's employees and unions are reading this.

I can't speak for everybody here, but don't assume that we're all pushing for unrealistic things come 2009. I'm just looking for a fair deal.
Aviation is proof that, given the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Posts: 24995
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:25 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 92):
Mr. Airline Executive Man... if you have to cut your workers pay so you can collect your 7 and 8 figure bonus then perhaps it is time you resign. If you can't afford to pay your highly skilled workers the pay rate they have earned then perhaps it is time to rethink your operating strategy.

Jobs are commodities.

Like the 7 or 8 figure checks executives get or not, those are the prevailing US market rates. Unlike pilots or many other aviation jobs, executives have very transferable skills and can very easily shift between companies if not industries. Hence the airlines must compete for executive and leadership positions with the rest of corporate America and must remain competitive in the area salary and benefit packages.

While we all might have different life circumstance and will never put down a ramper, gate agent, mechanic, pilot or the dozens other positions in the industry, I find it a fallacy for many of those positions to throw rocks at "management" for having gone out, got the eduction and pursued management and leadership careers and are now compensated accordingly.

At the end of the day, capitalism while brutally honest will ensure that simple supply and demand rules prevail and regretfully for the many union members their positions are simply not worth what they were at one time.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15101
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:29 am

Hey guys, watch as I counter all UAL777's silly arguments with reality...

Enjoy.

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 87):
The road to being a pilot is alot harder than that of the average American, and flight attendant too...

Wow. You are full of yourself. The road to being a pilot is NOT a lot harder than life for an average American! You obviously have no understanding of how hard people out there work and still stand to make far less than you do...

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 87):
No he's not. All airlines operate on a seniority system and since he is flying to LHR he is obviously very senior.

This is your union's fault. The union that decides this is the way it works. Rather than being payed based on merit and experience, you are payed based on seniority within a single company. That is 50 year old thinking.

The real world no longer operates like this. If your union would understand that, it might change in your industry. Then you'd have what is known as "skill portability" which is what the free market is based on.

Your union made your bed, so don't bitch about it.

Hell, even the Animation Guild was able to negotiate seniority portability. Why can't the APA negotiate that? They represent pilots at many airlines, why can't they at least negotiate that seniority transfers from one of their airlines to the next? Have you bothered to even ask why your union leadership doesn't do something about this?

If your union really worked for you, you'd be able to jump ship from UA or AA and fly for WN and earn those ducats you guys covet...

And then, the airlines would be more apt to pay pilots more evenly, and you wouldn't have those wild swings in pay from one carrier to the next.

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 89):
At age 45-50? I dont think so.

If your attitude in life is that at age 45 there is nothing else you could do with your life, you don't deserve to succeed at anything. People change professions all the time, or even shift within their field.

Unions encourage people to think of themselves as one thing, forever, that you can't do anything else with your life, and that you are worth more the older you get just because you are old. This is the worst kind of thinking in the world.

You could open a store, study law and become a public advocate, work for a charity, become a physics teacher, a realtor, an architect...

But wait you say. Those jobs may not pay as much as being a pilot, or involve new risk, or sacrifice, and they would require learning new things and more hours? Ah, then what you are REALLY saying is that you can't switch jobs at age 45 and still make as much money as you would as a pilot.

Hmm... maybe you senior pilots aren't as underpaid as you think they are, even the ones who took devastating pay cuts...  box 
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Indy
Posts: 4941
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:32 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 94):
At the end of the day, capitalism while brutally honest will ensure that simple supply and demand rules prevail and regretfully for the many union members their positions are simply not worth what they were at one time.

Capitalism is NOT using the courts to slash worker pay. Because it denies the other half of capitalism. It denies the workers a right to negotiate a fare wage. Using a court to impose wages it not capitalism. If this were capitalism then US and UA would not longer exist. Say what you want about CEOs and prevailing wage. It is nonsense. If you think they are entitled to get whatever they want in pay because of capitalism then the companies that they have run into the ground should go bust. Nobody has a right to even think about using the term capitalism as long as as the courts can be used to bully workers. That isn't capitalism. Not in any way shape or form. In true capitalism there is no such thing as bankruptcy protection. And people need to get over this prevailing wage thing for executives. When you run a company into bankruptcy and you walk away with millions it is called looting.
IND to RDU to OKC in 18 months. This is what my life has become.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6597
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Cut The BS-- Airlines/PAX Can Afford Restoring Pay

Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:03 am

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 63):
did AA77ER give up and not want to respond to anyone anymore??

He's gone crying to the Union whining "the public has conspired against us!"

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 95):
Hey guys, watch as I counter all UAL777's silly arguments with reality...

That made my day! LOL ! Thanks!
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !

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