Quoting Indy (Reply 96):

Many of the legacy airlines had to resort to courts to slash pay as they got behind the 8-ball prior to 9.11 while other newer and successful carriers paid mere fractions of what the bloated majors were.
Ch11 and BK laws allowed the majors to level the playing field to more realistic market based supply-demand wages along with some much needed incremental productivity gains.

As far as executive pay, I realise I am in the minority in my views, however also know I can walk away from aviation and successfully continue life in other fields unlike many of my airline friends whom simply might not posses widely transferable (or in demand) career skills.

Its a fallacy for any industries employees or unions to expect to be paid far in excess of what the market deems a position to be worth. By the same token executive compensation both in America and the ever globalized world are very much based on market supply-demand principles -- just look at the booming global executive recruitment/head hunter field desperately bidding to fill positions in every imaginable industry.
Its never too late to get an MBA.   

Reality you say? You obviously know nothing about the profession.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 95): Wow. You are full of yourself. The road to being a pilot is NOT a lot harder than life for an average American! You obviously have no understanding of how hard people out there work and still stand to make far less than you do...

I have worked a variety of jobs, including serving in the USMC. I will say that Parris Island is easier than pilot training. The average American wage is $43,000 dollars a year. I made that managing a self-storage unit. That money can also be made managing a fast-food restaurant or a chain restaurant. I have worked all three of those so yes, I will still stand by the claim that the road to being a pilot is harder.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 95): Ah, then what you are REALLY saying is that you can't switch jobs at age 45 and still make as much money as you would as a pilot.

That is exactly what I am saying. Do doctors switch jobs at age 45 or 50 to go earn the 'average wage'? No. To expect someone to throw away their entire career is totally unreasonable.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 95): This is your union's fault. The union that decides this is the way it works. Rather than being payed based on merit and experience, you are payed based on seniority within a single company. That is 50 year old thinking.

Here is where you are really out of touch. Many within ALPA have fought for a national seniority list for YEARS, but management is dead against it because it would take away their ability to play the wage "whip-saw" game. Further, how would you perform a "merit based" upgrade system for pilots? Would you do it on number of trips flown without calling in or cancelling the flight? Well, that would NEVER work because it would pressure pilots to fly in unsafe conditions, and it would discourage pilots from calling in fatigued or sick. That is a huge safety risk. If you still think management wouldn't do that, just look on this very site for the article on the Skywest pilot who had to take the company to court.



Im willing to bet that anyone who has been in an emergency situation as a passenger thought the pilot was worth EVERY PENNY and more.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 98): Many of the legacy airlines had to resort to courts to slash pay as they got behind the 8-ball prior to 9.11 while other newer and successful carriers paid mere fractions of what the bloated majors were.

Using a court though has nothing to do with capitalism.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 98): Its never too late to get an MBA.

Is that what someone with an MBA does? Run a business into the ground and then use the courts to make pay cuts that they didn't have the balls to make on their own? I'm sorry but I can't stab someone in the back while lining my own pockets. If this poor business management is the product of today's MBAs then I'll just hire someone out of high school to run my business into the ground.

I am personally for getting rid of corporate bankruptcy protection. You run the company into the ground you go out of business. That is capitalism and the free enterprise system hard at work. The absolute last person that should get a dime is the one who bankrupted the company to begin with. Yet the ones responsible for the messes are the ones that line their pockets. You run the company bankrupt. You get nothing. That is the way it should be. Let the company go bust and let the competition swoop in to pick up the pieces. That is how it should work. That is free enterprise and capitalism.

It is pointless. The vast majority on this site are enthusiasts and just enthusiasts. They care nothing more than to oogle at airplanes, take their best shot at being an armchair CEO, bitching about how poor their service was, and that is that. That is what seperates us from them for those of us on this site who are in the aviation community front lines. Bottom line. They are not and nor do they have a desire to be in it either. I am not above or beyond anyone for what I do for a living though I do beleive that what I do infact do is special because there are less of us than them but all and all we are equal as humans and love for the industry. With that being said though I still would not hesitate to pull the ego card on some people. Bottom line is when your ass needs to go someplace, you fly and you cannot fly unless you have pilots. Thank US for keeping you safe. Either that or I would be glad to hand you the controls and let you land a CRJ at DCA in blizzard conditions and see how you do. Oh and do not forget the fact that if you screw it up we will go swimming and if you survive you will loose your job and be subject to all sorts of other actions against you. My point is, when next you find yourself scared to shit in a situation on an airplane and your crew gets you out of it without a hitch (as perceived by you in back) you will understand. Do not forget that there is at least one person up front out of the two who is probably being paied just above the poverty line either. Non industry professionals in otherwords should have $hit to say about pilot pay.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 92): I comes from the many people who think it is OK for pilots to take a 50% cut when times are bad, only to get a 10% raise when they are good.

While I'm not saying this is the case because, as I've said already, it's for the market to decide - perhaps the fact that pilots had to take large paycuts after 9/11 may be a signal that they were being paid too much for the market to stand in the first place.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 92): So why should they have 50% (or 40% - it was only a ballpark figure) of compensation taken away when the industry is much stronger

I don't know which "industry" you're referring to, but I'd hardly call the airline industry "much stronger."

It's still sitting on a mountain of debt, still isn't earning its cost of capital (as it pretty much never has), and competition continues to get stronger every day. The short answer to your question is simple: pilots should have to give up and get back whatever compensation they do because of two things: a) what the market is willing to pay, and b) how well they are able to negotiate not with the company, but with the market, on what they are worth. The negotiation is a bit more opaque, but it's there: if the pilots negotiate too high a compensation for themselves, then their employer will go out of business, and they won't have any compensation, or job.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 92): and management are giving themselves huge bonuses?

We've been through this already. Management - at least in the case of AMR - didn't give themselves anything, the Board did. And it's not as if the Board just gave it to them yesterday, once they already saw the outcome of the game. They set these bonuses into motion years ago, when the stock options were worthless, and only be getting the stock price to go up did the options get any value.

Quoting Indy (Reply 94): Fault in my opinion lies with the company and the consumer.

I'm with you on at least part of that.

Like with many (if not most) things in this world, if you want somebody to blame, look in the mirror.

We - as Americans - have decided that we value low cost above all else, which is why retailers like Wal Mart continue to grow and do huge business, and why we're buying crappy contaminated products from China (generalization, I know, but it is happening to at least some extent). We as the American public sent businesses a message: we want the lowest cost possible, and we don't care how you get it to us. When that is the message people send, what conclusion do you expect companies to draw?

This whole argument about capitalism, socialism, fairness, inequity, etc. is just all moot in my view. This isn't a question of capitalism or not, equity or not, it's a question of consumer vs. producer. In the U.S. right now, the consumer is completely, 100% in the drivers seat and calling the shots: they pull no punches, have no patience, and have absolutely no qualms about exactly what they want: low prices, low prices, low prices. In that environment, the producers (i.e., businesses and employees) have no choice.

Quoting N710PS (Reply 103): That is what seperates us from them for those of us on this site who are in the aviation community front lines.

Sometimes, whether you think so or not, the line between "us" and "them" isn't quite as clear as you might think.

Quoting Indy (Reply 102):

I guess we differ on why businesses are run.

I suppose you feel they are run for the benefit of the employee, while I know for a fact they are run for the benefit of their owners -- the shareholders. Managements primary job is to maximize enterprise value and return to its owners not provide a charitable employment agency. This might be cruel, however its the truth of business 101.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 105): I guess we differ on why businesses are run. I suppose you feel they are run for the benefit of the employee, while I know for a fact they are run for the benefit of their owners -- the shareholders. Managements primary job is to maximize enterprise value and return to its owners not provide a charitable employment agency. This might be cruel, however its the truth of business 101.

Oh I don't dispute what you say. However there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. Using the courts is the wrong way to do it. It is the responsibility of management to keep costs in line. If they fail to do so they should be terminated.. not rewarded. There is a place for ethics and integrity in business. Management screwed up. They entered into inappropriate labor agreements that got them into a position where they were no longer able to stay profitable. They entered into inappropriate equipment leases as well. They failed at almost every level. It is their responsibility to do research to determine what customers are willing to pay for routes. They apparently failed there as well. None of the pieces came together.

When they screwed this all up they should have grown a pair of balls and gone to the workers and admitted the mistake and asked the members to vote on pay changes that would allow the business to stay operating and allow them to maintain a lifestyle similar to what they already had. They had a moral obligation to offer a goodwill gesture of taking a big pay cut of their own and even forfeiting their huge bonuses they receive. When people see management is willing to do the right thing and make sacrifices they will likely join in. Business isn't charity but you are expected to honor your agreements. Management did not. Most people are reasonable and will help but a reasonable person isn't going to take their already minimal pay and slash it while those with huge salaries continue to line their pockets and take huge bonuses for doing mostly nothing but running the company bankrupt.

So enter the wonderful U.S. bankruptcy system where these inept business managers are able to breach contracts they had with their workers and impose pay cuts while all along making sure they keep their own comfortable lifestyle. Business is not charity you say? Why doesn't management prove the point and slash their pay down to the level of a CSR or ramp worker? Because business isn't charity only applies to the lowest people on the totem pole. Any manager of quality admits to his/her mistakes and leads by example. So what does that tell you about much of the management (upper mainly) running the U.S. based airlines?

Once you default on employee pay you are in my opinion no longer entitled to stay in business. When you pay into a pension program on behalf of an employee you are simply providing payment in a different form. When you dump pensions you have cheated workers out of money that was earned by them and owed to them. Of course legal gimmicks protect management and the company from responsibility. I am a reasonable person and I don't hold this against them as much because a pension is such a long term program and there is no way to completely protect against it. There are risks that employees assume with this. But there is no excuse for breaching a current and usually short term (a few years) labor contract.

Management is 100% accountable for the mess the airlines have gotten in to but they for the most part have taken no responsibility for it. All they have done is dump the problem on everyone else. The accountability starts with the CEO and board of directors and works down the chain of command. Strangely though the pay cuts seem to start at the bottom. Basically starting the penalty of problems as far away from those responsible as possible.

Show me something in business 101 that says to blame everyone else for your mistakes. Show me something in business 101 that says it is ok to breach labor contracts. Show me something in business 101 that it is ok to run a company into bankruptcy and reward yourself for it.

Quoting Indy (Reply 106): Management is 100% accountable for the mess the airlines have gotten in to but they for the most part have taken no responsibility for it.

That's unfair.

There is plenty of blame to go around.

Management, unions, terrorists, government bureaucrats - everybody had a part to play in getting us to where we are today.

Saying that management is completely to blame is just not true and, in my opinion, belies reality.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 104): I'm with you on at least part of that. Like with many (if not most) things in this world, if you want somebody to blame, look in the mirror.

I am proud to say I am loyal to one airline. With the exception of being an aviation geek and wanting to see what FL's biz class service was like or extremely short notice flights were seats aren't available I'll book with one airline and one airline only. I have a trip to SAN coming up on the 22nd. I didn't even shop around. I don't care what the other airlines are offering. I stick with the airline that has been good to me. Unless they all the sudden change their way of doing business they will get my business on all travel.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 105):

Please pardon me if I come across as abrasive towards you. That is not my intention. Please don't take offense to it.

Quoting Indy (Reply 109): Please pardon me if I come across as abrasive towards you. That is not my intention. Please don't take offense to it.

No worries.. We just see the same situation from different angles.

Back to your comments in Reply 106;

While you like to lay blame in the hands of management, many things paved the way to airlines finding themselves in the emergency operating room following 9/11. The gay 90's particularly last few years was setting up the industry for a fall anyhow. One after another airlines adopted successive "me too" contract. Remember union actions such as United's "summer of hell" or Delta's UA+1% etc? The unions good or bad managed to drive some very costly CBAs.

Following the post 9/11 trips to emergency room many airline found themselves on life support. If not for the valiant efforts of management along with the sacrifices of the rank and file we would surely have lost a few. Sure pay got cut, unsupportable pensions got dumped however management had to do what it had to, using all means available to it including fully exploring Ch11 laws.

If management had not explored and acted then they would clearly not be worth their pay and would have failed in upholding their basic duty in protect the enterprise. Management at UA, US, DL etc.. have done exactly what they are employed to do by their owners.
Did they do a good job? -- well the airlines are still with us and 100,000's of people managed to hang on to their jobs.

The setup for the financial problems started long before 9/11. I believe UA and US were in serious trouble prior to 9/11. You don't lead a business to financial ruin, hack the pay of the workers and then get to call yourself a hero. If you go out and drive drunk and cause a wreck where the other vehicle bursts into flames and you pull the other people from the car before they perish do you think you should be rewarded? It was after all the negligence of the drunk driver that caused the problem in the first place.

Quoting Indy (Reply 96): It denies the workers a right to negotiate a fare wage.

but it doesn't deny them the opportunity to earn a market wage, although I know many in the airline industry prefer Soviet bread line customer service and the socialism that comes with it

reality is that without the socialist stabilization act, most legacies would be gone, replaced by more non-union carriers like B6, I think it's too bad our tax dollars were wasted to prop up a bunch of mismanaged airlines and their whiny, Un-American unions

Quoting Indy (Reply 92): Fault in my opinion lies with the company and the consumer.

So, you as a consumer would choose to fly an airline that charges more for a flight than an LCC would? Yes, in a way you can blame consumers for wanting the lowest fares possible, but that is our right is it not? There's no one out there forcing the airlines to lower fares to keep business except other airlines whose business models (LCC's) are becoming much more the norm. I'm not going to take the blame as a passenger because I can fly Southwest or another lower priced alternative. The legacies over the years have become bloated machines, due largely to unions demanding higher wages. Everytime one airline's union got a sweeter deal, all the unions at the others start positioning for an ever better deal. It gets out of control after awhile. Some carriers obviously know how to keep those unions happy. Southwest is one of the most unionized carriers around, but how often do we hear continual bitching from their people asking for more $$$?

It's not my fault as a consumer that an airline lowers its fares to get business. That's simple economics. When people start harping that the reasons they are under paid is the pax fault, that is utter nonsense. I guarantee you that the same people, if they were in a different profession, would want the lowest fare possible when they fly. Just because they work for an airline does not mean that they are any more special than anyone else in the general job force. You folks have a hard job no doubt. So do alot of other people. Stop blaming the passengers for your salary issues. If we left your airline en masse, you be unemployed. If you feel so strongly, go where all the rest of this country's jobs are going - India. They have lots of startups over there. Perhaps they will hire you. Then you can complain about how their management is screwing you. Having a job in this country is not a right. Stop acting like everyone else other than your employer owes you, because we do not.

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 99): I have worked a variety of jobs, including serving in the USMC. I will say that Parris Island is easier than pilot training. The average American wage is $43,000 dollars a year. I made that managing a self-storage unit. That money can also be made managing a fast-food restaurant or a chain restaurant. I have worked all three of those so yes, I will still stand by the claim that the road to being a pilot is harder.

I started work at 16 in an office and worked my guts out sometimes 2 or 3 jobs to pay for qualifactions and further education. It is only now I am 34 (18 years later) that I have made to "Manager" status. 18 years and a lot of very hard work, hours and money spent and yet I still earn 1/3 of a pilots salary for a 45 hour week - Who works harder??

Well, I've read most of this thread and I would like to throw in my two cents:

1.) Pilots are underpaid. I think some people would agree with that. Starting salaries and "odd jobs" at an FBO, for example suck. I'm currently working for a marketing company to make money to pay for the rest of my licenses, and it pays more than most other jobs, however it's not exactly the most enjoyable job on this planet.

2.) Flight Attendants, for the most part, rule. Every time I take a longer flight (like Trans-Pac which is what I am doing in about 20 hours from the time of this posting) I always make a point to chat in the back of the plane with the attendants for a bit and swap stories. It's a lot of fun and I generally make sure that I convey what they are doing, regardless if they are fresh out of training or 25 year veterans. (And it can earn me a few free cocktails, too which is always a plus but don't tell anyone I said that...) Some flight attendants have degrees, others do not. For those who stick around for 17+ years, I feel that they should get paid a reasonable amount of money as they have dedicated a good part of their life flying 6 feet above this planet dealing with the same irate passengers, puking kids, lavatory acts of love, and more. Sure, it may be monotonous but just like the pilot in command who is responsible for the plane, it's those attendants who keep order in the cabin and keep passengers from drinking too much (like me).

3.) While unions can be important, I find their propaganda a waste of everyone's time and I usually don't bank on anything until the proverbial fat lady sings (no offense to anyone).

My opinion is, for what it is worth, that this thread probably should not have been started.

Let's go back to talking about Northwest DC-9s...so what are they replacing them with again? 717's? DC-8's? Flying Monkey Things? Yellow Submarines? We all live in a yellow...er, red DC-9...red DC-9...red DC-9...

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 99): That is a huge safety risk. If you still think management wouldn't do that, just look on this very site for the article on the Skywest pilot who had to take the company to court.

Skywest did NOT fire him for not flying. They fired him for writing profanities against the chief pilot on the wall and on a board!

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 89): At age 45-50? I dont think so.

Actually, Many of us in the good ole' USA have new careers between 40-50. We might need to find new industries, new skills, or worse join many who no longer have careers but rather jobs. This is particularly true in aviation.

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 87): Quoting ACVitale (Reply 23): If AA777ER is so unhappy he is free to work anywhere else. The beautiful part of the USA is that he can go to work in aviation consulting, open a business, or flip fries.... OR deal with the reality that business changes and we are in a capitalistic economy. No he's not. All airlines operate on a seniority system and since he is flying to LHR he is obviously very senior.

Then get a job consulting, start a business, there is nothing stopping him from any of the above! Your post is MOOT.

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 87): Quoting Commavia (Reply 18): And that sucks, it really does. But seeing as pilots - on average - already earn far more on average than the average American, and certainly the average airline employee, its a bit harder for me to be sympathetic for their situation when their flight attendants with the same seniority literally make 1/4 of what captains make. I have no doubt it's caused tremendous personal and financial hardship for pilots - losing pay has a tendency of doing that for everyone. The road to being a pilot is alot harder than that of the average American, and flight attendant too...

Kudos to Commavia. UAL777 get real.. Your road is no harder then many. Ever look at an immigrant who comes into this country with nothing and makes something of their lives. You are a bit coddled if you believe that pilots have it tougher.

Quoting N710PS (Reply 101): Bottom line is when your ass needs to go someplace, you fly and you cannot fly unless you have pilots.

Actually, that may change soon the use of un-piloted vehicles for commercial aviation was approved by congress in the last FAA appropriations bill in Sep 2007. It may take years but, "the Profession" has a real enemy other then itself now. Computers!

Quoting Indy (Reply 104): Management is 100% accountable for the mess the airlines have gotten in to but they for the most part have taken no responsibility for it. All they have done is dump the problem on everyone else. The accountability starts with the CEO and board of directors and works down the chain of command. Strangely though the pay cuts seem to start at the bottom. Basically starting the penalty of problems as far away from those responsible as possible.

BS! - How many original management members are still at Delta? Management is outed far more frequently and with less cause. One bad call and you are on the street. Pilots have protection!

Quoting Sbworcs (Reply 112): started work at 16 in an office and worked my guts out sometimes 2 or 3 jobs to pay for qualifications and further education. It is only now I am 34 (18 years later) that I have made to "Manager" status. 18 years and a lot of very hard work, hours and money spent and yet I still earn 1/3 of a pilots salary for a 45 hour week - Who works harder??

Agreed!




FINALLY - The national seniority list has not been blocked by management but by PILOTS! Let's be honest... The recent HP/US situation is the heart of the issue. The brotherhood is convenient when it is in their interest but, the minute it goes the other way they are at each others throats!

So, while the old boys try to keep their salaries up (and as per this post, blames us customers for not wanting to pay more for their salaries), the young ones get trodden upon. Scope Clauses, seniority lists... LOL... sure, it's good to have a good and high salary when you're up on the seniority list, but if it means you get juniors with half a brain because your company cannot pay for guys with a full brain, or get guys with full brains but a ripper of a schedule, halve the fleet and have only you seniors fly! Maybe that's what some of them have on their agendas!

Mandala499

Quoting Sbworcs (Reply 112): It is only now I am 34 (18 years later) that I have made to "Manager" status. 18 years and a lot of very hard work, hours and money spent and yet I still earn 1/3 of a pilots salary for a 45 hour week - Who works harder??

since when does working harder translate to more money? The workers at my wifes company put together wheel assemblies in an un-airconditioned factory. Very hard work. But they make 9 dollars an hour.

It's easy to take shots at any profession that pays more than yours. The fact is, if you're not there you haven't done the work it takes to get there. Don't knock em cause they have a better job than yours.

Further, if you are only making 1/3 of what a pilot makes after 18 years of hard work, I submit you are in the wrong profession.

[Edited 2007-10-13 10:14:32]

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 116): Don't knock em cause they have a better job than yours.

I do not think anyone is knocking anyone. If you use your argument then the pilot comments on management are MOOT! The issue is.. Does AA which is already the highest paid group of pilots deserve more money then they are making. Do they need the third home, sixth wife, and 10th vacation a year?

Many of us find the thought offensive that AA pilots put themselves above all others, customers, other employees, shareholders, etc.

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 116): Further, if you are only making 1/3 of what a pilot makes after 18 years of hard work, I submit you are in the wrong profession.

Or that the pilots might be making a bit too much? The argument can work in many ways.

No on is arguing that the guy flying rubber ducks in a Beech 99 is not making enough. But the 777 driver with AA may very well be above the mean average. Lets not screw the C402, BE10, BE20, EMB, S340 etc drivers. Let's be real and look at the extremes. Maybe some of the 777 driver money should be lower on the food chain down on the flying that really takes skill where George does do all the work...

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 114): BS! - How many original management members are still at Delta? Management is outed far more frequently and with less cause. One bad call and you are on the street. Pilots have protection!

It is management and not the pilots that negotiate equipment leases, pay rates, routes, terminal leases, etc. The pilots do not do that. It is the fault of management. Period.

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 117): Does AA which is already the highest paid group of pilots deserve more money then they are making.

AA pilots are not the highest paid.

Here is your reality unfortuneately.

Quoting N710PS (Reply 101):

Quoting N710PS (Reply 101): Bottom line is when your ass needs to go someplace, you fly and you cannot fly unless you have pilots. Thank US for keeping you safe. Either that or I would be glad to hand you the controls and let you land a CRJ at DCA in blizzard conditions and see how you do.

Not all flights end up being safe sir! You are in the business of customer service, whether you like it or not! Yes your job is to fly an aircraft which most passengers on your plane probably can not do. Do not be angry with the ones who allow you to have a job in the first place. It's a two way street! We need you and you need us! Telling us that we are worthless without you is a little big headed!

Quoting N710PS (Reply 101): Non industry professionals in other words should have $hit to say about pilot pay.

Sure we have plenty to say, when it comes to you wanting to dip in to our pockets. Remember once again, my $$$$ and every other passengers $$$$$ pay your bills. Just like my customers pay mine..

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 119): AA pilots are not the highest paid.

According to airlinepilotcentral.com and willflyforfood.cc AA is at the top of the overall heap.

Where is AA at in your mind after reviewing? Which carrier do you think is higher.

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 122): Where is AA at in your mind after reviewing? Which carrier do you think is higher.

Well, FDX, UPS and ABX all pay more. Southwest pays more for similar equipment. I know some argue that the equipment should not matter, but the fact is most airlines (at least in the U.S.) have different pay for different equipment.

But yes, among the legacies, they are the highest paid.

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 116): Actually, that may change soon the use of un-piloted vehicles for commercial aviation was approved by congress in the last FAA appropriations bill in Sep 2007. It may take years but, "the Profession" has a real enemy other then itself now. Computers!

To an extent this might be true but it will never ever come to fruit entirely as far as the commercial airline industry is concerned. Computers are still on a whole more unreliable as a human and this is because they are built and programmed by humans. The pilot and the dog joke might come to fruit but otherwise no. Ask any Airbus pilot or Embraer crew.

Quoting Indy (Reply 120): It is management and not the pilots that negotiate equipment leases, pay rates, routes, terminal leases, etc. The pilots do not do that. It is the fault of management. Period.

Management is also responsible for the middle east conflict and growth in China that has seen oil rise 400% in price as well as the global economy and the interest rates and travel pattterns of 1 billion individuals.

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 127): Management is also responsible for the middle east conflict and growth in China that has seen oil rise 400% in price as well as the global economy and the interest rates and travel pattterns of 1 billion individuals.

Oil prices started going up in 1998. This was well in advance of 9/11. Management is also responsible for product pricing. They are completely to blame if they price their product for less than it costs to produce it. Who are you attempting to push the blame off on?

Quoting Indy (Reply 128): Oil prices started going up in 1998. This was well in advance of 9/11. Management is also responsible for product pricing. They are completely to blame if they price their product for less than it costs to produce it

You might want to take an ECON 101 class.

This is not how a market economy works, you don't just raise prices because you want to in a comodity industry.

I am guessing you have zero business experience, but you're entitled to your opinon.

Hey Indy,

Out of curiosity whats your experience that leads you feel "management" is the cause of all ills?

Also btw -- regarding product pricing, as has been well evidenced airlines as a whole have very little pricing power particularly in the domestic market. Its you and I, the consumer that drive pricing based on our behavior, not what an airline hopes to get for that seat, nor has much relationship to the cost of producing that seat.

Quoting Indy (Reply 128): Oil prices started going up in 1998. This was well in advance of 9/11. Management is also responsible for product pricing. They are completely to blame if they price their product for less than it costs to produce it. Who are you attempting to push the blame off on?

Yeah and guess what....when your money grubbing unions want more and more money, you have to charge more for your product to achieve the same revenue thus making yourself uncompetitive compared to other legacies.

It's so easy to blindly blame management for everything, isn't?

Quoting Sbworcs (Reply 114): I started work at 16 in an office and worked my guts out sometimes 2 or 3 jobs to pay for qualifactions and further education. It is only now I am 34 (18 years later) that I have made to "Manager" status. 18 years and a lot of very hard work, hours and money spent and yet I still earn 1/3 of a pilots salary for a 45 hour week - Who works harder??

See here is the problem, you see the very TOP of the payscale. The most junior captain at AA was hired in 1991! That means you spend 18 years at FO pay which barely breaks six figures for even the most senior of them.

Skywest did NOT fire him for not flying. They fired him for writing profanities against the chief pilot on the wall and on a board![/quote]

That is total BS too. They compared the profanities to just his signature and he hired a hand-writing expert who said it wasn't his.

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 116): Ever look at an immigrant who comes into this country with nothing and makes something of their lives. You are a bit coddled if you believe that pilots have it tougher.

Totally different scenario and you know it.

Quoting ACVitale (Reply 116): FINALLY - The national seniority list has not been blocked by management but by PILOTS! Let's be honest... The recent HP/US situation is the heart of the issue. The brotherhood is convenient when it is in their interest but, the minute it goes the other way they are at each others throats!

That is a total lie. They are at eachothers throats because of a lack of a national senority list. Again, management at all airlines don't want one.

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 132): See here is the problem, you see the very TOP of the payscale. The most junior captain at AA was hired in 1991! That means you spend 18 years at FO pay which barely breaks six figures for even the most senior of them.

Meanwhile a first year FO at a regional makes barely $20k/year, or probably a max of 1/3rd of what the most junior FO at AA makes. I'd imagine most FOs at AA are making the upper, upper five figures at least. They're far from poor. Cry me a river.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 130): Out of curiosity whats your experience that leads you feel "management" is the cause of all ills?

I've worked in management before (not aviation) and we were (and rightfully so) responsible for all business decisions that ultimately effected profit/loss. If the cost of materials went up we had to pass that along to the customers. If it became too problematic then we'd have to look at different suppliers and different/better ways to delivery the product at a lower cost per unit. We all worked from the same suppliers. We competed for the same customers. The difference is the company with the best management won. The first rule of management is that everything is your fault. I see every day how that concept has been pushed aside for the new rule of "I didn't do it. It wasn't my fault." When your people screw up it is your fault. Period. You make the decisions that put them in the place to succeed or fail. For those reading this thread that are in management and can't grasp that concept... quit. Get a different job. Management is not for you.

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 132): That is total BS too. They compared the profanities to just his signature and he hired a hand-writing expert who said it wasn't his.

And Skywest had hired handwriting analysis experts as well whom determined it was his.

Why not be honest. He had the motive, means, and the evidence says he did it. He got caught and three times it was upheld. Then he gets lucky the 4th time around. I suggest a read of the actual evidence. You can access online for a small fee!

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 132): Quoting ACVitale (Reply 116): Ever look at an immigrant who comes into this country with nothing and makes something of their lives. You are a bit coddled if you believe that pilots have it tougher. Totally different scenario and you know it.

Actually, No it is not... The point is clear.. Anyone can make it... If you are willing to work and not have a sense of entitlement! If you missed the point then you clearly will not ever get it...

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 132): Quoting ACVitale (Reply 116): FINALLY - The national seniority list has not been blocked by management but by PILOTS! Let's be honest... The recent HP/US situation is the heart of the issue. The brotherhood is convenient when it is in their interest but, the minute it goes the other way they are at each others throats! That is a total lie. They are at eachothers throats because of a lack of a national senority list. Again, management at all airlines don't want one.

Not a lie... If ALPA unions went to a single senority list it is their call. If you want to work it into non ALPA carriers well that is another story.. The real issue is that it cannot work and yes the US/HP and TW/AA and RP/NW are good examples of why it will not work! If you can get the young captains at healthy airlines to agree to a single senority list at stalled carriers with senior FOs good luck!

Quoting Indy (Reply 134): we'd have to look at different suppliers and different/better ways to delivery the product at a lower cost per unit

The pilots are suppliers of labor, the union is asking for a raise, your costs are already out of line , what do you do?


You can't raise your price because you are in a mature commodity industry with several options for you customers that are exactly the same as your product. what do you do?

your balance sheet is so leveraged that you can't get competitive interest or lease rates and you money suppliers (i.e. banks are in a liquidity crunch due to bad loans) what do you do?


Your shareholders are demanding that your costs get slashed to a competitive rate but your first largest cost is non-negoitable and increasing constantly. What do you do?


Local politians in your larget operating cities are presurring you not to lay off thousands in a election year, or they won't sponser legislation to help your cause....what do you do?

these are just a few of the things that the management people have to deal with, your example could not have been in the same industry.

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 125): Southwest pays more for similar equipment. I know some argue that the equipment should not matter, but the fact is most airlines (at least in the U.S.) have different pay for different equipment.

Hence my answer:

Quoting Mandala499 (Reply 60): Communique 3: Dear AA777ER, Then go and learn something from WN Union! Signed, Everyone else Communique 4: Dear Everyone Else, Over my dead body, we don't learn from LCCs! Signed, AA777ER

LOL!!!

You can learn a thing or two from them, without becoming one of them! I guess it's that Dallas vs. Forth Worth ego issue! *J/K*

Mandala499

Quoting Itsnotfinals (Reply 136): The pilots are suppliers of labor, the union is asking for a raise, your costs are already out of line , what do you do?

You don't give them a raise. You have to get creative in tough times if you want labor deals to go through. Pilots aren't stupid. They understand that tough times come up. Offer incentive programs and stock options. You can't however tell people you can't afford to give them their money while at the same time you pay yourself a big bonus. That sends the wrong message entirely. A big part of management is also employee relations. Employees don't want to feel they are being fed bullshit. That is the fastest way to a "no" vote.

There are other things you can do to cut costs like working with creditors to renegotiate lease terms. Banks have nothing to gain my taking back jets in bankruptcy. You may have to sell some jets to reduce your fleet. You have have to let some people go. That is unfortunately what happens during tough times. The weak must be left behind so the strong may survive. Increasing fuel costs and increasing labor costs effected everyone. It wasn't a problem unique to AA, UA, US, DL, NW, etc.

If you have to raise your fares to stay profitable you have to also do something to set yourself apart from the competition. Gutting the services you offer your customers isn't how to do that. If you offer nothing special then you are no different than the LCCs. At that point you have nothing to offer but price. Of course that sends you in the wrong direction. If you want to justify a higher price you have to offer things the LCCs don't. You have a full fare network. Offer full fare service. Then you can justify charging full fare prices. Identify your target market, adjust your product accordingly, and attack. If you want to pretend to be an LCC then gut everything down to the LCC level including the bloated hub & spoke system. If you are going to operate as a legacy then price accordingly and offer value added services accordingly.

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 116): Further, if you are only making 1/3 of what a pilot makes after 18 years of hard work, I submit you are in the wrong profession.

No - I am in the profession where I can get a job! The fact that it pays less than a Pilot is actually irrelevant I was trying to point out that just because you have have worked hard, paid money for education etc does not necessarily EARN you the right to huge salaries. I am paid well for the job I do and I would venutre, so are the Pilots?

If I take into account inflation etc then my wages are probably at the same level as they were 5 - 10 years ago - my company makes a good profit and pays well for the jobs we do - In fact like AA possibly some of the best in the area I work - I do not expect them to bankrupt themselves by demanding huge pay increases !

My seniority for want of a word in the line of work I do is transferrable but then I i transfer I am subject to market forces for the job I do. Yes we would all like to earn more but a sense of realism has to come into somehwere!

Message to the APA. The UAW took a lot less than they were used to getting from GM and Chrysler, because they finally realized that:

a) the labor costs of the Big 3 are significantly higher than the Japanese and European companies with U.S. plants,
b) the Big 3 have been losing market share for years, and
c) the UAW isn't about to unionize the plants run by foreign companies in the U.S.

If you drive up AA's costs, and AA can't increase fares above what the LCCs (Southwest, Airtran, Frontier, Virgin America, and JetBlue) charge, AA will bleed red ink until it files for Chapter 11. In which case, your wages will be cut even more, and your pensions will be terminated.

I could understand this kind of rhetoric from the F/As and the mechanics, but not the pilots. Most AA pilots I know spend their free time wathcing CNBC, reading the Wall Street Journal, and playing the stock market. They should understand how the airline industry works, and they should understand that the way AA management rewards itself is the norm for the Fortune 500.

The UAW may have agrred to less, but Rick Wagoner got a nice package. Bob Nardelli probably got a huge package to come to Chrylser. The UAW hasn't been racheting the executive compensation rhetoric the way the APA has.

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 138): If you drive up AA's costs, and AA can't increase fares above what the LCCs (Southwest, Airtran, Frontier, Virgin America, and JetBlue) charge, AA will bleed red ink until it files for Chapter 11.

even at current wages, AA can't compete with the LCCs on cost. The LCCs have much lower labor costs, but also get a lower RASM.

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 99): Here is where you are really out of touch. Many within ALPA have fought for a national seniority list for YEARS, but management is dead against it because it would take away their ability to play the wage "whip-saw" game. Further, how would you perform a "merit based" upgrade system for pilots? Would you do it on number of trips flown without calling in or cancelling the flight? Well, that would NEVER work because it would pressure pilots to fly in unsafe conditions, and it would discourage pilots from calling in fatigued or sick. That is a huge safety risk. If you still think management wouldn't do that, just look on this very site for the article on the Skywest pilot who had to take the company to court.

You could do it on years of experience, type ratings, peer reviews, performance reviews, performance in simulators, performance on written tests, lateness, etc. It seems like this should be a number one concern for pilots.