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lowecur
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ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:11 pm

Citing lagging demand, WN will cut 6 flts from the schedule. BWI, MDW, and LAS will all lose frequency. ISP is scrambling to try and remarket the airport to other carriers.

http://www.libn.com/article.htm?articleID=40245
 
aajfksjubklyn
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:44 pm

Thats what happens when you put all YOUR eggs in one basket..... I could have told you this 7 years ago when I saw first hand how the town of Islip bowed down to Southwest.
 
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STT757
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:49 pm

Quote:
The cutbacks come as the airline enters talks with MacArthur officials to find ways to better position the airport and market its ease of use and other amenities, according to Southwest spokeswoman Whitney Eichienger.

The talks are aimed at "getting to the bottom of why people are not choosing MacArthur," she said.

Fact is WN making ISP their NYC Metro area gateway was a bad idea, B6 has cut them off from most of the market with operations at JFK, HPN and SWF. WN needs to figure out a way into LGA or JFK, with enough slots to give them a real presence in the market. ISP is not going to cut it.
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flynavy
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:54 pm

Oh! Bad news for Tbird. Sucks for ISP!

NEXT.
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:00 pm

Relax ISP, Ryanair's coming!
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
access-air
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:34 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 2):
WN needs to figure out a way into LGA or JFK, with enough slots to give them a real presence in the market.

Maybe ATA leaving the MDW-LGA market will allow WN to move into LGA with the ATA slots....See related story eslewhere in this forum....

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
iaddca
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:47 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 2):

Fact is WN making ISP their NYC Metro area gateway was a bad idea, B6 has cut them off from most of the market with operations at JFK, HPN and SWF. WN needs to figure out a way into LGA or JFK, with enough slots to give them a real presence in the market. ISP is not going to cut it.

Very good points, and the challenge is only greater with FL moving into HPN.

WN is good airline, but this is another example of being a little too caught up in their own "luv" hype, and not paying enough attention to the changes in the LCC market. Going to ISP was an overextension of the alt airport strategy, and outside of Dallas, Houston, Chicago, there really is no true secondary airport strategy with the pax volumes WN, B6, and FL are now carrying. You either have to fly to ATL, JFK, SFO, or DEN, and provide better service than the legacies, but at inconvenient times in order to maintain plane utilization, as B6, VX, and F9 do, or go truly alternate like Skybus or Allegiant, and fly to Fargo or Chicopee, Mass. WN is stuck in the middle now, and SWF won't cut it with B6 already there. While not ideal, best opp for them in the tri-state area is to take on CO at EWR.
 
aajfksjubklyn
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:47 pm

ISP is a terrible location. You cant use it from NYC, it would take longer to drive to ISP from any of the 5 boroughs then it would be to fly to Florida.
 
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spinkid
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:45 pm

ISP is not only too far for anyone in the boroughs, except maybe outer Queens, it is wayyyyy too far out for anyone from CT, NJ, or even PA for that matter.
 
av8orwalk
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:10 pm

I'm wondering how much further and more time consuming using ISP actually is? A friend of mine who is an FA for WN gave me a buddy pass for my birthday. I chose to take a 2 day trip from MCO to New York City, via ISP. I landed in ISP, walked directly to the Colonial Transportation Van (didn't check any bags), and was at the train station in 6 minutes. I bought my ticket on the LIRR at the kiosk, walked onto the train, and we left 5 minutes later. I arrived at Penn Station 1 hour and 10 minutes later. Total time from plane to Penn was less than 90 minutes. It cost $14. Maybe I just got lucky.

Going back to ISP was even quicker. I could've taken a later train and spent more time in the city because I didn't know what security was like at ISP. I was the only one in line!

How long does it take you "regulars" to get to the city from JFK or EWR? I'm sure that LGA is probably much quicker, given it's proximity to the city.

Cheers!
Drew
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jm017
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting AV8orWALK (Reply 10):
I'm wondering how much further and more time consuming using ISP actually is? A friend of mine who is an FA for WN gave me a buddy pass for my birthday. I chose to take a 2 day trip from MCO to New York City, via ISP. I landed in ISP, walked directly to the Colonial Transportation Van (didn't check any bags), and was at the train station in 6 minutes. I bought my ticket on the LIRR at the kiosk, walked onto the train, and we left 5 minutes later. I arrived at Penn Station 1 hour and 10 minutes later. Total time from plane to Penn was less than 90 minutes. It cost $14. Maybe I just got lucky.

Yeah, you got lucky. I have done the trip a few times, though to be fair it wasn't to Penn Station. It took me longer than 90 minutes to get to Laurelton. A good portion of the time is spent waiting for trains at Ronkonkoma and Jamaica. Travelling to Penn Station is probably easier because you don't spend quality time waiting for a connection in Jamaica. When I fly into ISP, I just figure I will be waiting one hour for the train in Ronkonkoma and up to 0ne hour in Jamaica. Anyway, for folks going anywhere else but Long Island or Eastern Queens, flying into ISP is just too much of a hassle.

[Edited 2007-10-12 17:41:08]
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freshlove1
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:55 am

Why would WN want LGA or JFK??? Those quick turns they are famous for will go out the window. Yeah they may turn it in 25 min but sitting on the taxiway for 2 hours means that 25 min turn was for nothing. If I were them I would stay away, don't get caught up in that mess.
 
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Moose135
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:27 am

Quoting Jm017 (Reply 11):
Anyway, for folks going anywhere else but Long Island or Eastern Queens, flying into ISP is just too much of a hassle.

Yes, but those areas are home to over 3 million people, more than many states! I live in Nassau County, just about equal distance from ISP, JFK and LGA (about 25 miles from each) and given the choice, I would fly out of ISP every time. It's a hell of a lot easier to get to, parking is no hassle, and getting through the terminal is a breeze. And of course, no 2 hour taxi time for takeoff.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
toltommy
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:55 am

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 12):
Why would WN want LGA or JFK??? Those quick turns they are famous for will go out the window. Yeah they may turn it in 25 min but sitting on the taxiway for 2 hours means that 25 min turn was for nothing

Didn't stop WN from entering PHL.....

Makes one wonder what WN could have done if they had chosen JFK over ISP. Think about it. In the pre-B6 days, there was a lot of extra capacity at JFK, especially outside peak hours. B6 might not even exist today if WN had gone to JFK.
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OPNLguy
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:20 am

Quoting AAJFKSJUBKLYN (Reply 1):
Thats what happens when you put all YOUR eggs in one basket..... I could have told you this 7 years ago when I saw first hand how the town of Islip bowed down to Southwest.

Oh good grief people, this isn't the end of civilization (as we know it) on the planet, nor is SWA pulling out completely. The hyperbole here makes it sound like SWA is nailing plywood over all the windows before evacuating.

Quoting Lowecur (Thread starter):
ISP is scrambling to try and remarket the airport to other carriers.

Reading the article, it sounds more like the airport needs to be re-marketed to potential travelersso as to attract more of them.

Once ISP does (like SWF in the article), anyone wanna bet that some/all of those flight reductions will be back?
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
dragon-wings
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:22 am

Quoting Lowecur (Thread starter):
ISP is scrambling to try and remarket the airport to other carriers.

Besides Southwest what other airlines would fly into ISP? We had a lot of airlines flying into Islip in the past but most of them left or reduced service.
Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
cloudy
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 12):
Why would WN want LGA or JFK??? Those quick turns they are famous for will go out the window. Yeah they may turn it in 25 min but sitting on the taxiway for 2 hours means that 25 min turn was for nothing. If I were them I would stay away, don't get caught up in that mess.

WN has been forced to compromise on costs somewhat in order to fly places with enough population to fill their ever increasing number of 737's. I'm sure COS is preferable to DEN in both turn times and cost, but DEN is where its at revenue wise. PHL has a similar situation.

Another reason WN is being forced into airports like PHL Is that NIMBYS are making it very hard to start significant service at secondary fields - especially where it would represent a massive increase over the service already present. Southwest tried to move from Sea-Tac to Boeing field, but gave up when the locals didn't cooperate. It doesn't take many of these bozos to use the legal system and local governments to make an airline's life miserable.

Someday I would like to see a LCC tell the NIMBY'S to shove it and go into an airport despite significant opposition. The legal system goes both ways, after all. Southwest does not like to pick fights in that way, it only fights where absolutely necessary. It just doesn't have the culture to push itself into a place. Ryanair is more into the kind of gloves-off politics needed to slap down the NIMBY'S. We have an airline like Ryanair in the US now - it is called Skybus. If Skybus runs out of room to grow and needs to use a NIMBY infested airport it would give us enthusiasts a most colorful and entertaining fight to watch.
 
HPRamper
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:57 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 2):
WN needs to figure out a way into LGA or JFK, with enough slots to give them a real presence in the market. ISP is not going to cut it.

I thought LGA had perimeter restrictions.
 
Tbird
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:05 pm

These cuts aren't new so I'm not sure why everyone is so surprised. WN made this announcement months ago when it made other cuts system wide including dropping most of its transcons. The bigger issue at ISP is the millions that have to be spent to rebuild the brand new apron because of the shoddy job that was done on the first one. ISP is like that children's book "The little engine that could" but ISP is the "Little airport that couldn't." LOL
 
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STT757
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:25 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 17):
I thought LGA had perimeter restrictions.

Of course it does, but that does not mean that LGA would have alot of oppurtunities for WN.

The majority of WN's destinations are within the perimeter allowed at LGA, I can see WN really successful on the following routes from LGA:

Buffalo, Manchester, Pittsburgh, Chicago Midway, Nashville, Norfolk, Raleigh, Orlando, Tampa, Fort Lauderdale.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
srbmod
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:38 pm

Perhaps Skybus might consider ISP as a future city?

I think that most airlines have stayed away from (or ended service to) ISP because it really does compete to an extent with their services out of LGA and/or JFK and/or EWR. Delta Express used to fly into ISP until a few months before the operation was shuttered and Song started up. WN faces no competition out of ISP because the only other service is on Connection/Express carriers to ATL, BOS and PHL. Didn't there used to be service to CVG on OH as well? There really is a glut of service on NYC-Florida and NYC-Las Vegas routes.
 
jetbluefan1
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:39 pm

Quoting Dragon-wings (Reply 15):
Besides Southwest what other airlines would fly into ISP? We had a lot of airlines flying into Islip in the past but most of them left or reduced service.

JetBlue could very well enter ISP - given that they have MCO/PBI/FLL flights out of not only JFK but also LGA, EWR, SWF and HPN. ISP is a natural next step if WN is cutting frequencies to these other markets.

In any case, I live in Massapequa - just 25 minutes from both JFK and ISP - and I have never once used that airport. Last year a friend flew into ISP (from LAX, connecting in MDW) for a wedding, and she got an earful from my family for not taking a non-stop flight into JFK.

Keep in mind that many people that live in the tri-state area have lived here all their lives, and all their lives the airports that they have used were JFK, LGA, and EWR. I don't think ISP would be able to find any significant way to market itself to any greater population that already uses the airport.

JetBluefan1
 
dragon-wings
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:43 pm

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 20):
because the only other service is on Connection/Express carriers to ATL, BOS and PHL

US Airways Express also flies from Islip to Philadelphia using the Dash 8 300 and the CRJ.
Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:53 pm

Quoting Iaddca (Reply 6):
WN is good airline, but this is another example of being a little too caught up in their own "luv" hype, and not paying enough attention to the changes in the LCC market



Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 13):
B6 might not even exist today if WN had gone to JFK.

 checkmark  checkmark 
...I've always contended that B6's very existence is proof that WN can f^ck-up right there with the best of 'em.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
srbmod
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:36 pm

Quoting Dragon-wings (Reply 22):

US Airways Express also flies from Islip to Philadelphia using the Dash 8 300 and the CRJ.

Re-read what I posted:

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 20):
WN faces no competition out of ISP because the only other service is on Connection/Express carriers to ATL, BOS and PHL.

I was including the US Airways Express service to PHL, as Delta Connection only flies to BOS and ATL out of ISP.
 
dragon-wings
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:55 pm

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 24):
Re-read what I posted:

Your right, I read your post wrong.
Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
lat41
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:33 pm

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 20):
WN faces no competition out of ISP because the only other service is on Connection/Express carriers

CO ended it's own CLE RJ service and I beleive at the time it was attributed to not wanting the $99 business to cities where it competed with Southwest. However if t is like some cities, PVD for one, the other destinations where CO could have garnered higher yield business were priced, in many cases so far out of whack with neighboring departure points that alll the flights carried were the cheapies which the carrier wanted to avoid in the first place!
 
joelfreak
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:58 pm

If UA would just do flights to ORD instead of codesharing with US from there, so you can actually connect to something. Or maybe if DL flew something other than RJ's to ATL...If I try to fly UA metal out of ISP, I have to basically connect in PHL and then again in ORD or DEN, since everything out of PHL is basically US also...Heck, AA could feed ORD, and no reason why FL can't fly to Fla...
 
Art at ISP
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:23 pm

This is an interesting thread, one I am intimately involved with, living 12 minutes from ISP, hence my name.

From 1999 on, I flew from ISP religiously-first on DL through CVG, then ATL, and from 2000 on, US Airways Express, mostly through PHL. It got to the point where I was going through PHL 4 times or more per week, and I did get attached to the folks at US.

Then US messed up the schedule at ISP, making it difficult if not impossible to make connections through PHL to get where I need to be. So I moved to LGA (Southwest is a no no for me). Then US had their meltdown, and I moved on to other carriers. I now primarily fly AA and CO out of LGA or JFK, and haven't flown from ISP in about a year.

I agree that the reason other airlines pull out is they don't compete effectively with WN--and they get too many of the $99 transcon folks or "Kettles" as we call them on another board. On the other side of this equation, however, is that the business fares from ISP are much higher than LGA or JFK-whether by design or to make up from the lack of revenue from the "Kettles" I don't know, but I can't pay $1300 to fly to LAX via PHL when I can do the same from JFK for $400-$500 (note NOT $200) and get a premium seat on a nonstop flight.

I would much prefer to fly from ISP, as would many corporate travelers I know, if schedules and fares made sense. I don't think anyone has really taken a hard look at ISP--it has the potential to be an important reliever for JFK and LGA. With RATIONAL (notice not artificially low) fares and decent schedules, I think an ambitious airline could make a go of it at ISP, and I think someone will.

In talking to management at CO recently, ISP came up, and I believe they will consider coming back to ISP in the not too distant future. Things have changed since they left:

1. They are building up CLE big time, so the increased traffic and destinations would make ISP more attractive
2. They are getting the Q-400's which would probably work well on the ISP-CLE leg--they are fast enough to give acceptable stage times on the run, and their costs would carry lower average fares.

If ISP can come up with a good marketing plan, aimed at the right customer (BUSINESS TRAVELERS) and corporate clients, and an airline can have the vision to see the potential and make a sensible schedule with reasonable fares, I think ISP could be a real winner again. It will take a concentrated effort from both the Town of Islip and the Airlines, but I am confident it can be done.
 
cloudy
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:33 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 23):
..I've always contended that B6's very existence is proof that WN can f^ck-up right there with the best of 'em.

Well, I'm sure they would exist. They do have a different product. Their management philosophy is very different, as is their core business model. In many ways they are better suited for the Northeast than Southwest is. But they probably would have to start in a different place and would not be the force to be reckoned with they are today. It was the opening in JFK that gave them their running start.
 
787EWR
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:23 am

Quoting Spinkid (Reply 8):
ISP is not only too far for anyone in the boroughs, except maybe outer Queens, it is wayyyyy too far out for anyone from CT, NJ, or even PA for that matter.



Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 11):
Why would WN want LGA or JFK??? Those quick turns they are famous for will go out the window. Yeah they may turn it in 25 min but sitting on the taxiway for 2 hours means that 25 min turn was for nothing. If I were them I would stay away, don't get caught up in that mess.

I think WN needs to look at Stewart or HPN as their New York solution.

To me, Stewart can attract much more traffic from the New York, Northern NJ and the Connecticut area, although Southwest does fly from Bradley. SWF is being pushed by the NYNJ Port Authority. I have said it in a few posts before, but the fact that it is centrally located would be a huge advantage for WN(Just ask Jetblue and Airtran). Like any other LCC airport, a rail line or reliable bus service is an absolute requirement. Hopefully, one day, the PA will respond.
 
joelfreak
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:44 am

Long Island is CLAMORING for something that is NOT WN out of ISP. Believe me, I know. I would take ISP for my flights on UA if they actually FLEW out of there...as is I already connect. My Mother would take anything direct to Florida if it wasn't WN, as she wants to know where she is sitting before she goes...I know others who feel the same way...I think B6 would make a killing out of ISP, as long as they handle it right...and again, UA/AA/CO can do wonders with feeder flights to their hubs. Heck, even a helicopter service to EWR/LGA may work as an addon to flights out of there. They do it out of NYC now...ISP parking is that much cheaper that on a week long trip I could see paying extra for it.
 
cjpark
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:33 am

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 16):
Someday I would like to see a LCC tell the NIMBY'S to shove it and go into an airport despite significant opposition. The legal system goes both ways, after all. Southwest does not like to pick fights in that way, it only fights where absolutely necessary. It just doesn't have the culture to push itself into a place. Ryanair is more into the kind of gloves-off politics needed to slap down the NIMBY'S. We have an airline like Ryanair in the US now - it is called Skybus. If Skybus runs out of room to grow and needs to use a NIMBY infested airport it would give us enthusiasts a most colorful and entertaining fight to watch.

Does Dallas Love Field sound familiar? We have all ready seen that LCC against the community fight.

As far as the we place ourselves above the community rhetoric you claim for Ryanair, guess what Southwest wears that mantle proudly.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
D950
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:32 pm

Quoting Joelfreak (Reply 31):
Long Island is CLAMORING for something that is NOT WN out of ISP. Believe me, I know. I would take ISP for my flights on UA if they actually FLEW out of there.

I could not agree more, I fly 70-80k miles with UA, and I would even take one or two IAD flights a day. My office is less than a half mile from ISP, and I live exactly halfway between LGA and ISP. Trust me 90 minute Sunday drives to cover 30 miles is maddening.
Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
 
Junction
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:54 pm

Quoting Srbmod (Reply 20):
There really is a glut of service on NYC-Florida and NYC-Las Vegas routes.



Quoting Joelfreak (Reply 31):
Long Island is CLAMORING for something that is NOT WN out of ISP

These two posts seem to reflect the biggest issues. If you live in NYC, or are going to NYC, why go in/out of ISP with all the readily available closer-in competition? The other problem seems to be that not enough people who live near ISP are climbing on the WN bandwagon, and actually want to fly other carriers even if it means driving into NYC. Something seemingly very unusual for a WN market.
 
goingboeing
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:14 pm

Quoting ISP" class=quote target=_blank>Art at ISP (Reply 28):
If ISP can come up with a good marketing plan, aimed at the right customer (BUSINESS TRAVELERS) and corporate clients, and an airline can have the vision to see the potential and make a sensible schedule with reasonable fares,

Art...while they don't offer assigned seats or a vaunted first class cabin (how are they on the RJ's by the way), Southwest's business model IS the business traveller. You say you want "reasonable fares"...the only reason the majors had "reasonable fares" into ISP in the first place was the presence of Southwest. Othewise, business travellers would have been willing to spend a bit more than the "leisure class full fare, fully changable, fully refundable" fare that Southwest offered. But apparently, they weren't willing to pay THAT much more than the "leisure traveller".
 
D950
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:26 pm

Quoting Goingboeing (Reply 35):
You say you want "reasonable fares"...the only reason the majors had "reasonable fares" into ISP in the first place was the presence of Southwest

Not entirely true, AA was filling MD80's to RDU and ORD before WN showed up, but pulled out using the "we can't afford full planes at these fares" bs.
Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
 
ScottB
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:53 pm

Quoting D950 (Reply 36):
AA was filling MD80's to RDU and ORD before WN showed up

MD-80's from ISP to RDU were long, long gone before WN showed up at ISP.

Quoting D950 (Reply 33):
I fly 70-80k miles with UA, and I would even take one or two IAD flights a day. My office is less than a half mile from ISP, and I live exactly halfway between LGA and ISP. Trust me 90 minute Sunday drives to cover 30 miles is maddening.

I've never understood why two or three hours of drive/connection time is so preferable to an unassigned seat on a one to three hour flight. Due to an "irregular operation" on Sunday with Delta, I was re-booked into an ASSIGNED middle seat on a full 2.5 hour flight on Monday. I don't particularly care for the middle seat, but it is not the end of the world!

Quoting ISP" class=quote target=_blank>Art at ISP (Reply 28):
and from 2000 on, US Airways Express, mostly through PHL. It got to the point where I was going through PHL 4 times or more per week, and I did get attached to the folks at US.

Then US messed up the schedule at ISP, making it difficult if not impossible to make connections through PHL to get where I need to be.

I think I'd rather go to the dentist than risk a connection at PHL.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:26 pm

Quoting Goingboeing (Reply 35):
Southwest's business model IS the business traveller.

But at ISP, WN really only offers two routes for business travelers, MDW and BWI. All of WN's other ISP routes are to Florida and LAS. So, if you are a business traveler flying on WN from ISP, you are going to have to connect (or at best 1 stop to most destinations) to go to most places. This strategy of WN forcing most customers through its "hub" at BWI and MDW worked, since the nearest competing airport (JFK) was primarily an international gateway with relatively poor domestic service.

But now, as B6 and more recently DL have built JFK into decent sized hubs, ISP starts to lose some appeal. There's a multitude of nonstop destinations many of which are served on planes that provide equal or better amenities than WN...plus at fares that are competitive with WN. All of the sudden, the only advantage WN is left with is not having to hassle with JFK.
 
Art at ISP
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:25 pm

AA flew full MD-80's to ORD long after RDU went away. I think it was 2001 or 2002 when they stopped, then had Jungle Jets to ORD for a while before stopping altogether.

With the proper mix of aircraft, frequencies and fares, ISP can make money--WN has people brainwashed.

I admit it's tough--the airport has to market itself better, but there are a couple of MILLION people in their market area, and areas east of the airport are growing in size, population and affluence.

With the growth of CLE and the arrival of Q-400's, perhaps CO will make it work.

Also CO had ATR's between EWR and ISP for a while--that stopped, but reminds me of the EMB-120's running between SNA and LAX--and those make tons of money.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:00 pm

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 13):
Quoting Freshlove1 (Reply 12):
Why would WN want LGA or JFK??? Those quick turns they are famous for will go out the window. Yeah they may turn it in 25 min but sitting on the taxiway for 2 hours means that 25 min turn was for nothing

Didn't stop WN from entering PHL.....

Makes one wonder what WN could have done if they had chosen JFK over ISP. Think about it. In the pre-B6 days, there was a lot of extra capacity at JFK, especially outside peak hours. B6 might not even exist today if WN had gone to JFK.

This has been mentioned before; the primary reason WN chose PHL over the more-logical-to-their-model ABE, was because US was on the verge of going Chapter 7. Had HP not stepped in; US' demise would've left a hole at PHL wide enough for BOTH FL to expand (IMHO, they should've done that before WN arrived) and B6 to step in.

WN was not going to repeat a so-called mistake twice (the first one choosing ISP over JFK) by passing up PHL.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
justplanenutz
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:49 pm

Paging G4.

Secondary Airport--Check
Premier Tourist Destination--Check
Available Gates/Slots--Check
High Yield Market--Double Check (most of their markets are not)

It seems like a no-brainer for them to me.
 
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STT757
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:56 pm

Quoting ISP" class=quote target=_blank>Art at ISP (Reply 28):
In talking to management at CO recently, ISP came up, and I believe they will consider coming back to ISP in the not too distant future. Things have changed since they left



Quoting 787EWR (Reply 30):
Like any other LCC airport, a rail line or reliable bus service is an absolute requirement. Hopefully, one day, the PA will respond.



Quoting Joelfreak (Reply 31):
Heck, even a helicopter service to EWR/LGA may work as an addon to flights out of there. They do it out of NYC now...ISP parking is that much cheaper that on a week long trip I could see paying extra for it.



Quoting ISP" class=quote target=_blank>Art at ISP (Reply 39):
With the growth of CLE and the arrival of Q-400's, perhaps CO will make it work.

Also CO had ATR's between EWR and ISP for a while--that stopped, but reminds me of the EMB-120's running between SNA and LAX--and those make tons of money.

Perhaps EWR-ISP with the Q-400 might happen.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Art at ISP
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:19 pm

I discussed the EWR-ISP run with CO. Due to the ATC problems in this area at the moment, this route would be hard to operate reliably. When traffic restrictions pop into place (and they always do), these short flights suffer the most. While I personally would benefit from a hopper ISP-EWR, I think it unlikely. I think ISP-CLE on the Q would be a better possibility, and I think it would wind up being a profitable run.

Again, the key is for the Town of Islip to get some new blood and market the airport itself better.
 
CitrusCritter
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:44 pm

Quoting JustPlaneNutz (Reply 41):
Paging G4.

Secondary Airport--Check
Premier Tourist Destination--Check
Available Gates/Slots--Check
High Yield Market--Double Check (most of their markets are not)

It seems like a no-brainer for them to me.

I think you missed the "No direct LCC competition on our routes" checkpoint. WN has Florida and LAS covered. The only G4 focus-city without service is IWA/PHX, which I do not believe is in range of their MDs. G4 does not directly compete with any LCC on their routes. FL flies LAS out of some nearby cities, but not the same airport. That's pretty much the only close competition from LCCs.

In fact, the only airports besides LAS/FLL that they share with another one of the big LCCs are ICT and GPT to the best of my recollection. G4 flies ICT-SFB/LAS. FL offers only ICT-ATL, requiring a connection on to MCO. G4 offers GPT-SFB/LAS, while FL offers GPT-ATL, GPT-TPA, and GPT-FLL. For technicality's sake, they also share RNO with WN, but G4 only offers BLI-RNO, which obviously couldn't interest WN in the least.
- CitrusCritter
Long Live the 717!
XNA
 
justplanenutz
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:55 pm

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 44):

I think you missed the "No direct LCC competition on our routes" checkpoint. WN has Florida and LAS covered. The only G4 focus-city without service is IWA/PHX, which I do not believe is in range of their MDs. G4 does not directly compete with any LCC on their routes. FL flies LAS out of some nearby cities, but not the same airport. That's pretty much the only close competition from LCCs.

There is no LLC competition from most all of G4's Southeast and Midwest cities to NYC--they wouldn't fly to Florida or LAS. They don't connect any of their destinations/focus cities.
 
CitrusCritter
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:58 pm

Quoting JustPlaneNutz (Reply 45):
There is no LLC competition from most all of G4's Southeast and Midwest cities to NYC--they wouldn't fly to Florida or LAS. They don't connect any of their destinations/focus cities.

G4 focuses on selling leisure packages. NYC is not a year-round vacation destination and is completely outside of the realm of their focus cities. Florida, Vegas, Arizona, and New York? That makes no sense. NYC does not fit G4's model at all, even if there are a number of tourists during the summer. If they add a northern focus city, then it will be a legitimate ski destination.
- CitrusCritter
Long Live the 717!
XNA
 
justplanenutz
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:13 pm

So a ski destination has more year-round traffic than NYC?
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 3605
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting CitrusCritter (Reply 46):
NYC is not a year-round vacation destination

Huh?
 
N1120A
Posts: 26557
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RE: ISP Takes IT On Chin From WN

Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:20 am

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 4):
Relax ISP, Ryanair's coming!

Good luck getting off that runway with enough range with anything but a 757.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss

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